Please take note that apart from pure and simple vandalism, there is no excuse whatsoever for breaking the 3RR rule. Now, I won't go and report you to WP:AN/3RR, but I need you to stop this edit warring right now, or then I will have no choice but to report you.-- Ramdrake 14:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Thanks. Alun 17:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
My edits, if you had read them, are by no means "tendentious" and are merely a compromise with and correction of Slrubenstein's version which is clearly biased and not from a neutral POV whatsoever. Thanks for your inquiry though Alun. Epf 17:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please read the essay about tendentious editing. Obviously you have not read it. Tendentiousness refers to a pattern of editing and not to the content of the edits. You cannot defend your tendentious editing by making reference to the content of the edit, because tendentiousness is not about content. Clearly reverting six times in a single day is tendentious. Clearly "explaining" your edits, then making edits without seeking consensus is tendentious. It is not good enough for you to claim "I am right and everyone else is wrong", it is not good enough to post on a (user) talk page to "explain" your edit, and then edit war, this is not how Wikipedia works, and you will only get yourself blocked. Talk pages do not exist so you can bully or dictate, they exist for you to discuss solutions, it is not a discussion to simply give your reasons, you need to address the concerns of other editors. Clearly your current pattern of behaviour is only leading to edit warring. You cannot dictate what goes into an article, you can only debate with others and come to a consensus version, whether you like it or not, you do not have the authority. You have engaged in this sort of edit warring in the past, it is clearly a pattern of behaviour with you. You need to accept that other points of view exist and that you cannot dismiss them simply because you disagree with them.
Alun 05:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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You are seriously out of order. I specifically went and looked for references to support my edits to the Franz Boas article. You will note that I did not revert you systematically, I merely added references to those sections that were disputed. The supporting reference to "father of anthropology" was easy. But the reference to "not identifying as Jewish" was more difficult. But I did find a reference to it, and guess what? It just happened to be a reference that already existed in the article, so I just re-attributed it. There was nothing wrong with my attribution. Please don't remove verified info from Wikipedia in the future, especially material you clearly have not read. Alun 23:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I am willing to stop all insults if you are willing to (1) assume that I act in good faith and (2) assume that I believe I am complying with policies and (2) assume that I have done at least a reasonable amount of research on these topics.
I will not revert your addition ot the ethnic group link to the kinship and descent article, nor of a kinship and descent link to the ethnic group article.
But why can't you believe me when I say that Cole states that Boas did not identify himself as a Jew? What I jost wrote is a paraphrase that is so close to what Cole wrote that there is not point in my providing a direct quote. But the way I see it, it does not matter: if you do not assume good faith, I can quote Cole and you will accuse me of inventing the quote. If you do assume good faith, I do not need to provide a direct quote. either way there is no point in my providing a direct quote. You either believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me you will just accuse me of fabricating the quote. But I ask you to ask yourself seriously: why is it that you doubt me when I provide a full citation with the author's name, book title, and page number?
As for Ethnic Group, I believe I responded fully to every point you made on the talk page. If I stopped commenting it is because I was satisfied that I fully responded to all of your objections, and fully explained myself. To continue to comment would only be to repeat myself. I see two differences between our versions.
First, you wrote, "The international meeting on the Challenges of Measuring an Ethnic World (Ottawa, Canada, 1992) noted that: "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I wrote, According to some, "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I do not see how you can accuse me of violating NPOV, or of misquoting, or misinterpreting the quote, which are all things you have accused me of. Since I simply see no evidence for these charges I find it silly to try to respond to them - you may as well demand that I prove that I did not kill my wife. The only differences have nothing to do with the content or meaning of the quote. I add the words "According to some" and this to me is utterly non-controversial: it is a fact that some do hold this view. The next sentence uses the word "others" and for me it is simply good style to use the form "some say x but others say y i.e. if the next sentence says others, the first one should say some. This does not misrepresent, nor does it violate NPOV. The other difference is I leave the source in the reference. Again, there is no misquotation or misrepresentation and no violation of NPOV. It is just consistent style: two major views are presented, and the sources for both are in the citations. This is consistent. To name the source for one in the sentence, and leave the source for the other in the citation, is simply inconsistent and poor style. And it makes sense to put the sources in the citations because these are views shared by many others besides the specific sources. If we name the sources in the sentences themselves, readers may think that only these sources have these views. But this is not the case. In fact, others hold these views; the sources we provide are perhaps exemplary, but examples of people or groups that hold these views. I explained this already, and I still see no misquotation or misinterpretation or violation of NPOV.
Second, your version goes on to say "Other researchers have also stated" where as my version says "Others, however," I feel very strongly that my version complies with NPOV and yours does not. NPOV insists that we present all notable views. People are divided over their understanding of ethnic group, and we need to present alternate views. Saying "Some believe x. others, however, believe y" does just this. Your version implies that the "others" accept the Ottawa statement, but believe something else in addition. This implies that all people agree with the Ottawa statement. This is simply not true. You have to get over your belief that all people in the universe agree with you. You have to learn to accept views you do not agree with. I frankly find it appalling that you accuse me of pushing a POV when I have accepted the inclusion of the view you inserted, while it is you who seem to refuse to accept any other view. So here we have two people: one who accepts only one view, and another who accepts competing views. Do you really think the first person is faithful to NPOV and the second is violating it? Think hard about this. And if you believe I am misrepresenting Friedlander, Wolf, Sider, and others I have cited, like Cohen and Vincent, all I can say is, no, you are wrong. You just have to assume good faith and accept the possibility that somone other than yourself may actually know something.
Now at the very least I hoipe you will stop all this pretense that you have explained yourself and I refuse to respond to you. I have responded to your accusations and I have explained my edits. I have explained why I believe that your version violates NPOV. I have explained why I believe my version complies with NPOV. As for the interpretation of the sources, Wolf most definitely does not believe that ethnicity is universal, let alone rooted in anything biological, or kinship, and I cited several others who likewise reject this view of ethnicity. You seem passionately opposed to this view of ethnicity but if you really believe every social scientist thinks the way you do, you need to seriously reexamine your view of yourself and the world. It is narcisistic to believe that everyone in the world must think the way you do. Are you utterly incapable of conceiving of the possibility that there are social scientists who do not think the way you do?
If you can accept that I am acting in good faith, seeking to comply with NPOV, and to represent the sources I add accurately, I will reciprocate in kind. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Why was the mention of Phoenician settlement in Sicily taken out of the Italians article? I can understand if the dates were incorrect, but now the article makes no mention of their historic presence. Sicilianmandolin ( talk) 09:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite understand your "ethnic" dilemma (only I find it to stink a bit) and thus what your problem is with the pictures of worldwide notorious French citizen just because they were not born on French soil. French people are the sovereign people of France, composed of all French citizens, « regardless of ethnic origins or religious opinions ». The article is about all French people, period. - Wikigi | talk to me | 13:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Epf, please read the
tendentious editing essay. I know you are a good faith editor and I know you are passionate about ethnicity, those qualities are to be commended, but you should have realised by now that simply reverting people and arguing that others are always wrong and you are always right does not get you anywhere. Please try to work with people to include all relevant points of view and not simply assume that what you believe is correct and what others believe is incorrect. I think I know you well enough to understand that you are acting in
good faith, but I think that you sometimes forget that other editors are also acting in good faith. Most of us established editors have engaged in edit warring at some point or other, but it can never be a solution, no one can "win", ultimately we need to find common ground. This usually means compromising and allowing all points of view to be expressed. All the best.
Alun (
talk) 21:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
They are not simply "Canadians", whatever that term represents. They are Canadian nationals, but ethnically they are also French and specifically French-Canadians.
It appears you are the one who is quite mistaken on French ethnicity. There IS a French ethnic group and the French people article includes the ethnic aspects of France as well as those who are French nationals and citizens. France has not been a "magnet for immigration since the beginning of human times" as if there was some constant flow of migrants to and out of France. This makes no sense whatsoever and few would ever make such a ridiculous claim. The migrations into France have been fairly few and far between. Why do you think there are ethnic cleaveges amongst the indigenous peoples of France ? Bretons, Corsicans, Basques are some of the indigenous ethnic minorities, but the people who created the langue d'oil (French) and langue d'oc (Occitans) cultures are ALSO the indigenous ethnic groups of France (and majority population). They differ distinctly from the foreign and foreign-descended minorities. France was originally settled (like most other Europeans) by distinct peoples in the Paleolithic and Neolithic and eventually stirred up under the Gallic Celts. The Romans invaded but left a large cultural impact like most other regions in Europe they conquered, but not a demographic one. The same can be said about the Germanic Franks who conquered what was Gaul, but had a lesser cultural impact than the Romans. These three groups made what French culture is. There had been no migration of peoples into France on the level of even the Franks (which was still small) between the time of Charlemagne and the 19th century. The Gallo-Roman with Frankish (or as you yourself mentioned: Celtic "Gallic" and Latin "Roman" with Teutonic "Frankish") cultural elements ARE the French culture, common to all who are ethnically French, while most are primarily descended from the Gallic and pre-Gallic elements. This is why those who are indigenous French have common aspects in physical appearance, common descent and a common French culture from these various elements. The current population of France comprises of different ethnic groups but the "Celtic and Latin with Teutonic" is the French ethnic group. None of the Germans, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns or Arabs (they never even conquered much of France or settled at all, they were driven back by Charlemagne) ever significantly influenced what was French culture or settled there in any noticeable numbers. This can not be said about the Vikings tho who did impact fairly significantly the culture of Normandy, but not so much the population. The influence of the Britons (mainly cultural) was confined almost entirely to Brittany and the Bretons, an ethnic group distinct from the langue d'oil speaking French. Currently, France has predominant French and Occitan ethnic populations with various indigenous and foreign minorities. The actual impact of groups who came here depends generally on how long they conquered the land and how much of an impact their culture has. Soldiers come and conquer but they often come in few numbers. The Normans conquered England and had a cultural influence, but they never came in large numbers and the maximum estimate of their population that permanently settled in England by historians is about 5000. The Romans conquered France but there wasn't a mass migration of peoples, rather there was merely a (for various reasons) strong cultural impact.
One more thing, I again would ask you to please stop simply labelling the French-Canadians on the list as simply "Canadians". They are ethnically French and I guarantee you that most people in the world would consider Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier (again, another obvious example of likely French descent is their common FRENCH surnames we see here) more French, especially ethnically speaking, than Josephine Baker or Marie Curie. The mother tongue of Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier was French, can you say the same about Baker and Curie ? Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier were all raised from birth in traditional French culture AND they are of French descent, can you again say the same about Baker or Curie ? I think I've made my point quite clear. Ciao. Epf ( talk) 04:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this contribution can possibly be considered OR. It is point of view though. I've just checked a few sources I have lying around and none support this point of view exactly, they do, however, say that Boas' work shows that skull shape is not genetically determined, and that claims that skull shape differences between groups of people are "innate" or "genetic" are now treated with skepticism. Of course this still means that differences in anatomy can be used to identify what ethnic group a person comes from (as you know being a physical anthropologist), but this does not imply that these differences are genetic in origin. We know that the heads of newborn babies are extremely maleable (indeed many cultures deliberately deform the shape of the head, but this is due to cultural practice rather than genetics). Anyway I agree with you that this pov statement is not supported by a citation at present. If I find one I might put it back in, I do know that anthropologists generally do not think skull shape has any genetic significance. Alun ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Wow its you...lol...thats crazy? Ya for sure. We should work together! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Evan...how do you get all those ethnic and religious banners from as I want to improve on my page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your note and seriously hope we can work together cordially; I will strive to sume good faith always. Just to clarify some outstanding issues: social constructionists like Hobsbawm and Freidlander and Sider do not think that all ethnic markers are of recent invention, but they honestly do think that many and in some cases most are. Now, I acnowledge that there are others who do not see ethnicity the same way as these guys; who either see it as biological or as resting on age-old customs. And I acnolwedge that this other POV must be represented. But let us represent all notable POV's accurately, rather than in wishy-washy fashion. A final note: a see no value in applying the word "ethnic" anachronistically and it would violate WP:NOR to say "according to x, Jewish ethnicity is a, b, and c; according to the following sources Marx posessed traits a, b, and c; therefore Marx was an ethnic jew." This chain of reasoning violates Wikipedia policy. You need to provide a qualified source that states that Marx was ethnically a Jew. Also, we have to comply with WP:NPOV an WP:V which states that Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth. At most we cold say that "According to historian M, Marx was an ethnic jew." Would could never say "Marx was an ethnic Jew as that would violate our policy. I hope I have conveyed my reasoning to you in a clear and respectful way. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I am looking forward to it also. I see you have read the Ronald Cohen article - I hiope you found it interesting. Joan Vincent wrote an article in the same publication which I recommend - it may be a good source for the ethnic group article, I am not sure, I have not read it in a long time. And I hope one day you have time to read the Friedlander book which is very fun reading and sound scholarship. About Jewish ethnic identity ... I have not done any research on German - Jewish ethnic/national research early 19th century. I am sure that we agree that at least some Germans, not just in the mid 20th or late 19th century but even earlier, had very different notions of the German "nation" (we would have to find out what words besides volk they used, if any properly translate as ethnicity or nation) than not just Hilter but even Bismark. Now, this is very indirect, but if you have any interest in Jewish ethnic identity I highly recommend this as a starting place: Shaye J.D. Cohen 1999 The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties, Berkeley: University of California Press. Best,
Slrubenstein |
Talk 10:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Florentine Histories is an article I have attempted to translate from it:Istorie Fiorentine - I saw that you speak italian at an "advanced" level, I would appreciate your help.-- Kiyarrlls ton 00:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Epf! Thanks for your note. In fact I was the one that inserted the map that has factual innacuracies in most of the articles, but then, when comparing to other maps and also in some discussions with other editors, and also when comparing to the source map I mentioned, the errors started being to much to accept it. And in fact it is not sourced - I mean, we do know what is the source (yes the site is still on), but the site does not source the map with references, unlike the one I mentioned (which also has some problems and there is an small discussion going on at the Commons), which has an extended bibliography supporting it (see the link for the pdf version). The map you re-inserted has many problems: the Aquitanian area is too small and it does not take into account the ambiguities regarding some of the Astur or Pyrenean tribes and even trans-Pyrenean tribes (for example the area marked A1 is presented as Iberian, when it is know by every other source to be Aquitanian), as well as the ambiguities regarding interpenetration between Iberian and Aquitanian zones; It treats the Oritani as Iberian when many sources say they were Hispano-Celt (there is some discussion about this and the map I made is still not perfect treating them as unambiguously Celtic; the Lusitania area is too big, either because it extends excessively into modern Spanish Extremadura, ither because it goes all the way to the coast (thus erasing the area of the Celtic Turdolorum Oppida); It ignores the Pre-Celtic but Indo-European influence in Gallaecia and Asturias; it exagerates the Phoenician and Greek areas, in the sense that those were merely elite languages and not overall populacional languages; It does not distinguishes the specific area of the Turdetani, which most authors (beginning with Strabo!) say had a different language from the Iberians, being the most consensual and modern hipotesys that is was descendent from Tartessian; It fails to see that by 250 to 200 BCC the Conni area of the Algarve and Lower Alentejo did no longer speak a Tartessian derived language, but was pratically all "celtized" by the Celtici (even if the Conni still existed, there seem to have been a language and cultural shift); The boundaries between languages groups (and now I mean within each big family), are excessively weel defined, not concordant with the specific geographical implantion of tribal groups according to many other sources, giving relevance to some groups and forgeting others, confusing Roman provinvial boundaries with ethno-linguistics one (there were no exact matches) and confusing tribal groups with linguistic ones, inventing language names or varities (see its site) that no source ever mentions!! As you can see there are many problems... The map I made is not at all perfect, but it does try to correct these issues - it still needs work, though. Of course it would be better to be able to work in a better drawing program that the one that produced it, but I can't seem to find how Inkscape works!! Do have any lights on that? Hope to hear from you! The Ogre ( talk) 17:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Epf. I would not like you to feel that you are being bashed or anything like that. I believe that you have a genuine interest for the subject but also that you hurry to reach conclussions where things are not very clear. It's surely not your fault, after all there are a zillion theories around, with more or (often) less fundamentals.
Regarding the maps (I understand you were also the author of that other map that ended being deleted), there is a big difference between an objective map like this one (or my own creation: this one) and a biased interpretation like this one. The latter adds maybe some valuable data in some areas where it can be reasonably confirmed (by historical sources, for instance) that were Celtic or whatever but the price it pays is too large, specially for an encyclopedic site like this, because it presumes too much. For instance we have just zero reasons to think that the Cantabri were Celtic and instead we have some reasons to believe they could be Basque/Aquitanian because Roman sources mention they intervened in favor of their Aquitanian "relatives" against Caesar. The situation of Celtization in other areas (Galicia for instance, Asturias even more) is also very obscure. Classical (unfounded but widespread) theories are wiped out by new discoveries, like the Basque texts of Veleia, etc.
We should be more humble and admit we just don't know when we actually don't. This applies for scholars as for laymen. For you, for me and for The Ogre, who happens to be the author of that map (just noticed) and who has comitted a brutal error claiming that the Talayotic culture was still alive in the 2nd century (it ended c. 700 BCE apparently - and I have not the slightest idea of what came next). In such cases it's better to leave a blank.
Regards, -- Sugaar ( talk) 06:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm fed up with our constant disagreements about what an "ethnic group" is. I don't think it's productive for either of us. So I've asked on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups if it is possible to formulate a guideline about how we view ethnic groups on Wikipedia. I've tried to frame the request in a neutral way, but of course I have given my point of view. I think it's only fair for me to leave this message so you can go and give your point of view as well. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong on this, but I think I understand it. Obviously you think you are correct and I think I'm correct. The best thing to do is to get a good guideline about how we should think about ethnic group membership on Wikipedia, to do this the ethnic group wikiproject is the obvious place. All the best. Alun ( talk) 07:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I have edited the talk page for french people for clarity [3]. I took the liberty of removing the bullet points. If you want to use bullet points on a conversation, try to do it like this (look at the code to see it):
As you can see, you can use the bullet points and indent at the same time, and this helps other editors to see at what comments you are answering to. I hope this was useful for you -- Enric Naval ( talk) 16:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
You did not provide any evidence that the US State Department identifies a French ethnic group. Up the State Department does, you have not provided us with that evidence. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic groups: Celtic and Latin with Teutonic, Slavic, North African, Sub-Saharan African, Indochinese, and Basque minorities.
Also:
PEOPLE:
Since prehistoric times, France has been a crossroads of trade, travel, and invasion. Three basic European ethnic stocks-- Celtic, Latin, and Teutonic (Frankish)--have blended over the centuries to make up its present population. France's birth rate was among the highest in Europe from 1945 until the late 1960s. Since then, its birth rate has fallen but remains higher than that of most other west European countries. Traditionally, France has had a high level of immigration. More than 1 million Muslims immigrated in the 1960s and early 1970s from North Africa, especially Algeria. About 85% of the population is Roman Catholic, 10% Muslim, less than 2% Protestant, and about 1% Jewish. However, the government does not keep statistics on religious affiliation, and according to a January 2007 poll, 51% of respondents describe themselves as Catholic, and another 31% describe themselves as having no religious affiliation. In 2004, there were over 6 million Muslims, largely of North African descent, living in France. France is home to both the largest Muslim and Jewish populations in Europe.
I hope this clarifies the situation somewhat. You are correct though that it does not specifically mention the "French ethnic group" so I see your point. I already know more accurate and specific sources are needed, so theres not much that can really be added in article right now. It is itself in a current state of massive OR and unverified claims. Epf ( talk) 22:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not think we disagree. As I have said, I do not believe we should exclude any notable view from a verifiable source - as long as it is accurately and precisely represented, and the view clearly identified and when possible contextualized. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that you don't actually know the meaning of the word "remarkable". This is the OED definition "Worthy of remark, notice or observation; hence, extraordinary, unusual, singular." Every paper that discusses human genetic diversity notes that we are genetically a relatively homogeneous species, these papers are written by people who do seem to think that this information is worthy of remark and that it makes our species unusual, extraordinary or singular. If they did not think it worthy of remark then the papers would not mention it. I have four papers citing this fact, I could introduce many many more that also make this claim. It is therefore remarkable because every paper that discusses this fact remarks upon it. This is simple English Epf. You seem to be under the impression that the word "remarkable" means something like "very" or "exceedingly", it does not mean this, it means worthy of remark, or if you like noteworthy. Alun ( talk) 07:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Watch your personal observations, you have called me "ignorant", have claimed that I am "twisting" the points you make, have stated that I have made "ridiculous statements". The fact is I don't "personally disagree with them", I am merely pointing out that the sources don't support you. Indeed I try to make it clear in my posts on Wikipedia that when I am expressing my personal opinion it is just that, my opinion and not from a source, though most of my opinions are derived from evidence and how experts have interpreted it. I always try to support my observations by citing reliable sources and certainly don't have any particular bias, I have no strong beliefs except that we should accurately report what experts in the subject say. You openly admit that you want to include original research when you say "I provided some viewpoints from my own analysis as well as others", Wikipedia does not publish original research, it is not interested in your analysis only the analyses of reliable sources. As for your claim that "My views are clearly supported by genetics and anthropology" this is demonstrably not the case.
You need to distinguish between a "migration" and a "mass migration". We can claim that migration is true even if there was only a single person migrating every generation, and very few experts would contend that no migration took place at all. Most experts have formed a consensus that there were probably small piecemeal migrations by elite warrior groups that dominated the native peoples.
Most would now agree that the migrants arrived in mixed groups, not as distinct ethnic bands, as nineteenth century savants assumed.... The migration of the Anglo-Saxons was not a Volkerwanderung like that of the Visigoths into Aquitaine or the Lombards into Italy. It was a piecemeal, cumulative process, extending over two centuries or more....Relations with the native British are still a largely obscure and difficult field. A few historians still hold to a vision of the British being swept westwards into Wales and the South-west. It is much more likely that a large proportion of the British population remained in place and was progressively dominated by a Germanic aristocracy, in some cases marrying into it and leaving Celtic names in the, admittedly very dubious, early lists of Anglo-Saxon dynasties.....As for the Anglo-Saxon groupings, no-one would now dream of thinking in terms of nationhood, either ethnically defined or set within the framework of a polity before the time of Alfred. The very notion of an ethnos: as a coherent, unchanging entity has received a great deal of attention of late from anthropologists, archaeologists and historians, though not much of this has been directed at the problems of early mediaeval Europe. It is clearly right to be cautious, or even highly sceptical, about identifying early mediaeval ethnoi as the ancestors of later peoples or nations...Ethnicity, however defined, is rarely a basis for nationhood and we may not seek the ancestors of the modern English among the migrants of the fifth and sixth centuries, any more than the modern French look back to the early Franks. The roots of nationhood are of much recent growth and they are still tender and vulnerable.
Anglo-Saxon Origins: The Reality of the Myth
Whether Germanic languages were already being spoken or not in eastern Britain is open to debate. These native peoples (and they may or may not have been Celtic speaking peoples, the truth is we just do not know) adopted the customs and habits of the elite group over time. Whether this was because they were culturally/linguistically similar, or whether it was due to the unbalancing of the elite group due to differential reproductive success (as the paper "Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England" suggests) is an open question. But the mass migration of several nations comprising hundreds of thousands of people, with a subsequent complete displacement of all "Britons" is a very different proposition, and few reliable academics (geneticists, archaeologists and historians) would support such a theory. Catherine Hills states in her book "The Origins of the English"
In general, there is a problem in this area of research in that geneticists often (and the press almost always) seem to assume that ethnicity is clearly and objectively definable, whereas social scientists, including archaeologists, have come to see it, as argued in this book, as a more fluid and complex phenomenon."
In her conclusions she gives a lucid account of the relationship between modern English people and "Anglo-Saxons"
All forms of evidence are consistent with the establishment of an elite who's cultural, and probably biological, ancestry, lay in northern Germany and southern Scandinavia. They took control of eastern Britain, probably piecemeal and over a long period. What that means in terms of population remains elusive because much of the evidence is interpretable in more than one way. The situation is unlikely to have been the same in all parts of England. In some places new rulers may have displaced only the native elite - and married some of their daughters - while elsewhere they were followed, sooner or later, by many humbler settlers. Not only may the "English" of Somerset and Hereford be closer to the Welsh in ancestry than to the East Anglians, but the populations of Wessex and Northumbria may have been different from each other long before the Vikings settled in the north.
In the end, the answer is probably that the English never were and never will be homogeneous, and also that they, like other peoples, are not ancestrally defined and divided from other peoples with a precise origin at any one time in the past. Another place to seek the origins of the English of today is now.
You have made some quite nasty comments about me and my motivations, I am always happy to include reliable sources in any article. I do not support the inclusion of the conclusions Wikipedia editors, this constitutes OR, I do not support the inclusion of single povs, I have never encouraged users not include a pov just because I do not agree with it. I have no strong feelings about the origins of the English, and have never pushed any specific pov, I have only encouraged the accurate inclusion of povs from reliable sources. The mass migrationist/displacement theory of the origins of the English is a relevant theory to include, but it is not the only one, and it is not a theory that has a great deal of support amongst experts. Furthermore many experts do see the mass migrationist/displacement theory of the origins of the English as a "creation myth", see Francis Pryor again but also
The historical sources, then, are now considered by many to be of more use in teaching us about the social and political climate of the periods in which they were compiled, and as records containing first-hand information about the origin myths, legends and traditions of the British people, rather than as strictly factual sources....[t]he 'Coming of the Saxons' is now so much a part of our national mythology that it is often not realised that the origins of the people who lived in the eastern and southern part of Britain, now known as the English, have not always been traced back to Germanic invaders or migrants from the continent...In the latter half of the 20th century, however, thinking about these [historical] sources [eg Gildas, Bede] changed fundamentally, and archaeological research began to focus on context, process and patterning, rather than on fitting in with historians' views of events. The argument over the biological identity of the people of 5th century Britain has since been played down, in favour of the more 'anthropological' aim of determining and understanding evidence for the construction and maintenance of social identity in the early medieval period. [5]
and Margarita Díaz-Andreu makes the point that
Now that archaeologists have begun to deconstruct the naive way in which archaeology has thought about material culture and about "cultures" (Shennan 1989, Diaz-Andreu 1996, Jones 1997) there is no easy way to deal with ethnic identity. I would suggest that, as in many other matters in archaeology, we will never know for certain how ethnicity operated amongst past peoples. Keeping it on the agenda will help us better understand (our healthy lack of knowledge about) them.
Comment on "Archaeologists and Migrations: A Problem of Attitude? by Heinrich Härke
These are all relevant points of view held by reputable expert academics, but none of them support your contention about what experts think. It is incorrect to claim that there is a consensus that supports your belief in this regard, and we are bound to include all points of view, whether we support them or not. The English people article is not primarily concerned with the origins of the English, it is primarily concerned with the English as a modern identity group, much of what I and you have written on the talk page not directly relevant to the article, it's much more relevant to the Anglo-Saxons article and the Sub-Roman Britain article. As such I have left this message here. Alun ( talk) 05:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The sources do not state that the relationships between past and present identity groups are difficult to decipher, they claim that it is 'impossible to know how people in the past identified, we cannot ask them, and it is inappropriate to make judgments about the identity of past peoples from material culture. But the point is that I am not trying to "prove" anything, (except that there are reliable sources that contradict you, even though you claimed no such sources exist). I am merely pointing out that the "mass migration" idea is a theory and other theories exist that interpret the evidence differently.One reason for exploring the origins of the English is because their identity matters not only to those who identify themselves as English but also to all the other peoples with whom the English have, and have had, relationships of all kinds. Another is that this is an example of a national origin myth.
Seeing your comments on Talk:French people, I have to tell you that WP:3RR is not a free pass to revert three times per day the same change without addressing the issues on the talk page -- Enric Naval ( talk) 13:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I hope you don't take my last comments as turning against you. You have very valid points. Personally, however, I've always had some misgivings about making this a "Science", so I naturally lean towards the more liberal interpretation. Nonetheless, I think the term has room for a broader definition to include the "perception". The defence is too strong.
On another note, I removed Occitans from
Italians because I think the intent is to compare the northern Italians to
Central Europe. Again you are 100% correct, but this is after all Wikipedia. :)
Dionix (
talk) 22:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
True, I see your point, and thanks for taking part in the discussions in any case. Epf ( talk) 23:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Epf. I read your comments on Talk:Italians, but they do not really respond to my question- which is in effect directly a response to the issue on the French talk page. Also, I'm not versed in this sort of stuff (I'm more of a history buff), but I don't agree with your assessment of Italians as a homogeneous people. As I understand it, the base is actually many original peoples (Brutti, Oscans, Venetics, Etrucscans, etc.) and also early waves of Greeks, Phoenicians, Gauls, etc., which became Latinised but not necessarily Latin. Add to this later waves of Lombards, Saracens, Albanians, Slavs etc., etc. and you definitely do not have a homogeneous people. Looking at it this way, and in the spirit of the French debate, the situation is such that we are talking about a cultural group- not an ethnic group. Perhaps it is because the "mixing" came earlier that we delineate the Italian situation from the French? The entire ethnic definition seems dubious to me unless it is broadened in scope- as you very well know, something the people on the French page do not support. Dionix ( talk) 21:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
On the Kinship talk page you said we are making progress. I hope so, and would be glad. Now, to answer your question, I still maintain that descent groups like lineages and clans, and referential systems like kinship terminologies, are not relevant to ethnicity. They are relevant to "tribes" but tribe and ethnic group are not synonymous - that would void both terms of analytic rigor. Cohen rightly points out sometimes the words themsleves are misapplied. But when one could (and perhaps for Cohen should) refer to so-called tribe as an ethnic group, what makes it an ethnic group is something that transcends and is beyond descent groups and kinships systems. They just are not connected.
You are correct that there is another view of ethnicity, which you are associating with "descent." I would like to be constructive and cooperative and suggest to you a way that you can explore this dimension within the terms of mainstrean anthropology. I think the key thing is to understand that "descent" means many things, and can be defined narrowly and broadly, and there is a narrow usage that is related to kinship but NOT ethnicity. There is a broader sense that is related to ethnicity, but not kinship.
So how to talk about the stuff you are so interested in? The key word is "primordial ties" and "primordialism." You will notice that I recently added an extensive quote fromn Eric Wolf to the Ethnic Group article. It represents what I believe is the mainstream view of anthropologists as to the nature of race and ethnicity, and should not be removed. But I acknowledge that it is by no means the only notable important view held by social scientists. Wolf himself, in this extended quote says he rejets primordialism. What I propose to you is that in order to maintain balance in the article, you add a new section on "Ethnicity and primordial ties." This does not mention the word decent but I think you will find it addresses that view you think I am neglecting.
I suggest you draw on two sources in developing this section:
The views expressed in these two essays are usually presented by anthropologists as the "alternative" to Frederick Barth and Eric Wolf. I think the "Ethnic Group" article should and could never present one unified or synthetic view of ethnic groups, but it would be complying with NPOV and helping educate readers if it clearly explained the differences between Shils/Geertz, Barth, and Wolf.
I just added a lot of Wolf. At some point perhaps one of us could add more Barth. Giuven your own interests and concerns, with respect I suggest to you that you find the Shils and Geertz article and work on incorporating their views into the article. Searching good academic databases may yeild to you more articles published in major peer-reviewed journals (like American Anthropologist, Current Anthropology and American Ethnologist) that discuss ethnicity in relation to the ideas set forward by Shihls and Geertz ... articles that cite the two essays I cite above. You would problably enjoy such articles. I promise you, as long as you do not present theirs as the only or best view of ethnic groups, and do present them as different from Barth and Wolf, I will make no objection to your adding their views and explaining them at length. If I understand your intereses correctly, you should enjoy working through their stuff. I hope you do. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
PS After you read Shils and Geertz, I would recommend you look at some recent stuff that is critical of them e.g.:
Henry Hale, 2004, "Explaining Ethnicity" in Comparative Political Studies, Vol. 37, No. 4, 458-485
If you are really interested in anthropological studies of ethnicity, you should read actual ethnographies and not just articles. This book is among the most cuting-edge (I have not read it, I do not know what it says, i can only tell you it got fantastic reviews and is heavily cited and assigned in university courses: Liisa Malkki, 1995 Purity and Exile, Chicago: Univesity of Chicago Press Cheers, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
You ask, "Considering the pertinence between the two articles, do you agree for now with at least leaving the current link to Kinship on the Ethnic group article ?" No for the simple reason that what they mean by kinship is not what the article on kinship talks about - they are not refering to the institutions, roles, and the body of theories anthropologists study as "kinship." I hope you can find the articles and we can discuss appropriate ways to incorporate them into the Ehnic Groups article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
As a regularly contributing UK Wikipedian, we were wondering if you wanted to contribute to the Oxford bid to host the 2010 Wikimania conference. Please see here for details of how to get involved, we need all the help we can get if we are to put in a compelling bid.
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Addbot ( talk) 22:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Rather than let this develop into an edit war, which could happen, could you please discuss this here? [6] - thanks, hopefully we can come to a consensus on this. Doug Weller ( talk) 12:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 05:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Please do as Doug says and tone down your language, comment on content and not users. This edit summary is totally unacceptable. See WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:CIV. You've now been warned twice, please take these warnings seriously. Alun ( talk) 05:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
You are mistaken. AMH+1 is the Antlantic Modal Cluster, this is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and all other haplotypes that are only a single mutational step from it. Don't mix up haplotypes and haplogroups, R1b (and all haplogroups) is defined by a specific SNP ( Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), so all R1b haplogroup Y chromosomes have the M343 mutation. Haplotypes are defined by Y-STRs (Y- Short Tandem Repeat), that is they are defined by the number of repeats in a series of short tandem repeats, they are not defined by any SNP. AMH ( Atlantic Modal Haplotype is a specific set of STR loci that contain a specific set of alleles at these loci, this pattern of YSTR is exceptionally prevalent in R1b haplogroups across western Europe, but does not define any R1b haplogroups. In fact it's possible for a non R1b Y chromosome to have the AMH, though probably at a low frequency. The FMH (Frisian Modal Haplotype) for example is part of the Atlantic Modal Cluster, it varies from the AMH by only a single mutational step. In Capelli et al. they do not genotype for any R1b marker at all, instead they genotype for the R1 marker (M173) and the R1a1 marker (M17). So their analysis technically does not include any R1b identified haplogroups at all, they have identified only those Y chromosomes that belong to R1 and then a sub set of these that belong to R1a1, the cladogram at the bottom of page 982 shows this clearly, R1a1 is a sub group of R1xR1a1. R1xR1a1 defines that paraphyletic group that contains all R1 haplogroup Y chromosomes that do not have the R1a1 mutation. For Europe this is more or less equivalent to R1b (though there could, for example, be R1* Y chromosomes, though they would be extremely rare). What Capelli et al. do in order to further subdivide the R1xR1a1 haplogroup, which is enormous given that it contains well over 70% of all Y chromosomes from the British Isles, is to genotype all R1xR1a1 Y chromosomes for the AMH+1 haplotype and call this a sub set of R1xR1a1. So technically you can't identify R1b Y chromosoems from this study, but practically you can generate this figure by adding the AMH+1 and R1xR1a1 numbers together. Likewise 2.47+1 is a sub-set of haplotypes that has been derived from the IxI1b2 haplogroup (all I Y chromosomes excluding those belonging to I1b2), to get haplogroup I one needs to add IxI1b2 + I1b2 + 2.47+1, this is more correct because they do actually genotype for M170, the SNP that defines haplogroup I. The Y chromosome tree has changed quite a bit over the last year or so, and the haplogroup I1b2 no longer exists, the mutation M26 now defines the haplogroup I2a2. What used to be called I1a is now called I1, and what used to be called I1b is now I2. [7] These are sensible rationalisations of the tree. Interestingly the greatest division in Europe on a Y chromosome scale is the subdivision of haplogroup F into groups IJ and K. Subgroups of IJ include haplogroup I, subgroups of K include P (including R1a) and NO, N being dominant in north Eastern Europe (Finland for example) and Asia and O being dominant in East Asia. It's odd but from a Y chromosome perspective Mongolians and Chinese N and O Y chromosomes are closer to Finnish N3 and western European R1b/R1a1 than any of these are to eastern English and central European I Y chromosomes. The subgroups of P are distributed throughout Europe, east Asia and the Americas, Native American Q Y chromosomes are much closer to European R Y chromosomes that European R Y chromosomes are to European I Y chromosomes. Alun ( talk) 09:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm working on compiling a book containing information about almost all Non-indigenous ethnic groups living or working in Pakistan. The population of a particular ethnic group would be obtain respectively from their diplomatic missions in Pakistan including regions with significant populations, languages spoken and religious affiliations. I'm not very good with writing so it would be great, if you would like to collaborate with me.-- 116.71.53.25 ( talk) 06:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Please see Talk:English Defence League#Facebook support regarding you last edit to that article. __ meco ( talk) 10:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Please stop your
disruptive editing. If you continue to
vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at
Muammar al-Gaddafi, you may be
blocked from editing. You've been on here for 6 years; you very well know what you did was in fact vandalism.
Toa
Nidhiki
05 18:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Please take note that apart from pure and simple vandalism, there is no excuse whatsoever for breaking the 3RR rule. Now, I won't go and report you to WP:AN/3RR, but I need you to stop this edit warring right now, or then I will have no choice but to report you.-- Ramdrake 14:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Thanks. Alun 17:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
My edits, if you had read them, are by no means "tendentious" and are merely a compromise with and correction of Slrubenstein's version which is clearly biased and not from a neutral POV whatsoever. Thanks for your inquiry though Alun. Epf 17:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please read the essay about tendentious editing. Obviously you have not read it. Tendentiousness refers to a pattern of editing and not to the content of the edits. You cannot defend your tendentious editing by making reference to the content of the edit, because tendentiousness is not about content. Clearly reverting six times in a single day is tendentious. Clearly "explaining" your edits, then making edits without seeking consensus is tendentious. It is not good enough for you to claim "I am right and everyone else is wrong", it is not good enough to post on a (user) talk page to "explain" your edit, and then edit war, this is not how Wikipedia works, and you will only get yourself blocked. Talk pages do not exist so you can bully or dictate, they exist for you to discuss solutions, it is not a discussion to simply give your reasons, you need to address the concerns of other editors. Clearly your current pattern of behaviour is only leading to edit warring. You cannot dictate what goes into an article, you can only debate with others and come to a consensus version, whether you like it or not, you do not have the authority. You have engaged in this sort of edit warring in the past, it is clearly a pattern of behaviour with you. You need to accept that other points of view exist and that you cannot dismiss them simply because you disagree with them.
Alun 05:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
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You are seriously out of order. I specifically went and looked for references to support my edits to the Franz Boas article. You will note that I did not revert you systematically, I merely added references to those sections that were disputed. The supporting reference to "father of anthropology" was easy. But the reference to "not identifying as Jewish" was more difficult. But I did find a reference to it, and guess what? It just happened to be a reference that already existed in the article, so I just re-attributed it. There was nothing wrong with my attribution. Please don't remove verified info from Wikipedia in the future, especially material you clearly have not read. Alun 23:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I am willing to stop all insults if you are willing to (1) assume that I act in good faith and (2) assume that I believe I am complying with policies and (2) assume that I have done at least a reasonable amount of research on these topics.
I will not revert your addition ot the ethnic group link to the kinship and descent article, nor of a kinship and descent link to the ethnic group article.
But why can't you believe me when I say that Cole states that Boas did not identify himself as a Jew? What I jost wrote is a paraphrase that is so close to what Cole wrote that there is not point in my providing a direct quote. But the way I see it, it does not matter: if you do not assume good faith, I can quote Cole and you will accuse me of inventing the quote. If you do assume good faith, I do not need to provide a direct quote. either way there is no point in my providing a direct quote. You either believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me you will just accuse me of fabricating the quote. But I ask you to ask yourself seriously: why is it that you doubt me when I provide a full citation with the author's name, book title, and page number?
As for Ethnic Group, I believe I responded fully to every point you made on the talk page. If I stopped commenting it is because I was satisfied that I fully responded to all of your objections, and fully explained myself. To continue to comment would only be to repeat myself. I see two differences between our versions.
First, you wrote, "The international meeting on the Challenges of Measuring an Ethnic World (Ottawa, Canada, 1992) noted that: "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I wrote, According to some, "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I do not see how you can accuse me of violating NPOV, or of misquoting, or misinterpreting the quote, which are all things you have accused me of. Since I simply see no evidence for these charges I find it silly to try to respond to them - you may as well demand that I prove that I did not kill my wife. The only differences have nothing to do with the content or meaning of the quote. I add the words "According to some" and this to me is utterly non-controversial: it is a fact that some do hold this view. The next sentence uses the word "others" and for me it is simply good style to use the form "some say x but others say y i.e. if the next sentence says others, the first one should say some. This does not misrepresent, nor does it violate NPOV. The other difference is I leave the source in the reference. Again, there is no misquotation or misrepresentation and no violation of NPOV. It is just consistent style: two major views are presented, and the sources for both are in the citations. This is consistent. To name the source for one in the sentence, and leave the source for the other in the citation, is simply inconsistent and poor style. And it makes sense to put the sources in the citations because these are views shared by many others besides the specific sources. If we name the sources in the sentences themselves, readers may think that only these sources have these views. But this is not the case. In fact, others hold these views; the sources we provide are perhaps exemplary, but examples of people or groups that hold these views. I explained this already, and I still see no misquotation or misinterpretation or violation of NPOV.
Second, your version goes on to say "Other researchers have also stated" where as my version says "Others, however," I feel very strongly that my version complies with NPOV and yours does not. NPOV insists that we present all notable views. People are divided over their understanding of ethnic group, and we need to present alternate views. Saying "Some believe x. others, however, believe y" does just this. Your version implies that the "others" accept the Ottawa statement, but believe something else in addition. This implies that all people agree with the Ottawa statement. This is simply not true. You have to get over your belief that all people in the universe agree with you. You have to learn to accept views you do not agree with. I frankly find it appalling that you accuse me of pushing a POV when I have accepted the inclusion of the view you inserted, while it is you who seem to refuse to accept any other view. So here we have two people: one who accepts only one view, and another who accepts competing views. Do you really think the first person is faithful to NPOV and the second is violating it? Think hard about this. And if you believe I am misrepresenting Friedlander, Wolf, Sider, and others I have cited, like Cohen and Vincent, all I can say is, no, you are wrong. You just have to assume good faith and accept the possibility that somone other than yourself may actually know something.
Now at the very least I hoipe you will stop all this pretense that you have explained yourself and I refuse to respond to you. I have responded to your accusations and I have explained my edits. I have explained why I believe that your version violates NPOV. I have explained why I believe my version complies with NPOV. As for the interpretation of the sources, Wolf most definitely does not believe that ethnicity is universal, let alone rooted in anything biological, or kinship, and I cited several others who likewise reject this view of ethnicity. You seem passionately opposed to this view of ethnicity but if you really believe every social scientist thinks the way you do, you need to seriously reexamine your view of yourself and the world. It is narcisistic to believe that everyone in the world must think the way you do. Are you utterly incapable of conceiving of the possibility that there are social scientists who do not think the way you do?
If you can accept that I am acting in good faith, seeking to comply with NPOV, and to represent the sources I add accurately, I will reciprocate in kind. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Why was the mention of Phoenician settlement in Sicily taken out of the Italians article? I can understand if the dates were incorrect, but now the article makes no mention of their historic presence. Sicilianmandolin ( talk) 09:41, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite understand your "ethnic" dilemma (only I find it to stink a bit) and thus what your problem is with the pictures of worldwide notorious French citizen just because they were not born on French soil. French people are the sovereign people of France, composed of all French citizens, « regardless of ethnic origins or religious opinions ». The article is about all French people, period. - Wikigi | talk to me | 13:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Epf, please read the
tendentious editing essay. I know you are a good faith editor and I know you are passionate about ethnicity, those qualities are to be commended, but you should have realised by now that simply reverting people and arguing that others are always wrong and you are always right does not get you anywhere. Please try to work with people to include all relevant points of view and not simply assume that what you believe is correct and what others believe is incorrect. I think I know you well enough to understand that you are acting in
good faith, but I think that you sometimes forget that other editors are also acting in good faith. Most of us established editors have engaged in edit warring at some point or other, but it can never be a solution, no one can "win", ultimately we need to find common ground. This usually means compromising and allowing all points of view to be expressed. All the best.
Alun (
talk) 21:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
They are not simply "Canadians", whatever that term represents. They are Canadian nationals, but ethnically they are also French and specifically French-Canadians.
It appears you are the one who is quite mistaken on French ethnicity. There IS a French ethnic group and the French people article includes the ethnic aspects of France as well as those who are French nationals and citizens. France has not been a "magnet for immigration since the beginning of human times" as if there was some constant flow of migrants to and out of France. This makes no sense whatsoever and few would ever make such a ridiculous claim. The migrations into France have been fairly few and far between. Why do you think there are ethnic cleaveges amongst the indigenous peoples of France ? Bretons, Corsicans, Basques are some of the indigenous ethnic minorities, but the people who created the langue d'oil (French) and langue d'oc (Occitans) cultures are ALSO the indigenous ethnic groups of France (and majority population). They differ distinctly from the foreign and foreign-descended minorities. France was originally settled (like most other Europeans) by distinct peoples in the Paleolithic and Neolithic and eventually stirred up under the Gallic Celts. The Romans invaded but left a large cultural impact like most other regions in Europe they conquered, but not a demographic one. The same can be said about the Germanic Franks who conquered what was Gaul, but had a lesser cultural impact than the Romans. These three groups made what French culture is. There had been no migration of peoples into France on the level of even the Franks (which was still small) between the time of Charlemagne and the 19th century. The Gallo-Roman with Frankish (or as you yourself mentioned: Celtic "Gallic" and Latin "Roman" with Teutonic "Frankish") cultural elements ARE the French culture, common to all who are ethnically French, while most are primarily descended from the Gallic and pre-Gallic elements. This is why those who are indigenous French have common aspects in physical appearance, common descent and a common French culture from these various elements. The current population of France comprises of different ethnic groups but the "Celtic and Latin with Teutonic" is the French ethnic group. None of the Germans, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns or Arabs (they never even conquered much of France or settled at all, they were driven back by Charlemagne) ever significantly influenced what was French culture or settled there in any noticeable numbers. This can not be said about the Vikings tho who did impact fairly significantly the culture of Normandy, but not so much the population. The influence of the Britons (mainly cultural) was confined almost entirely to Brittany and the Bretons, an ethnic group distinct from the langue d'oil speaking French. Currently, France has predominant French and Occitan ethnic populations with various indigenous and foreign minorities. The actual impact of groups who came here depends generally on how long they conquered the land and how much of an impact their culture has. Soldiers come and conquer but they often come in few numbers. The Normans conquered England and had a cultural influence, but they never came in large numbers and the maximum estimate of their population that permanently settled in England by historians is about 5000. The Romans conquered France but there wasn't a mass migration of peoples, rather there was merely a (for various reasons) strong cultural impact.
One more thing, I again would ask you to please stop simply labelling the French-Canadians on the list as simply "Canadians". They are ethnically French and I guarantee you that most people in the world would consider Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier (again, another obvious example of likely French descent is their common FRENCH surnames we see here) more French, especially ethnically speaking, than Josephine Baker or Marie Curie. The mother tongue of Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier was French, can you say the same about Baker and Curie ? Trudeau, Levesque and Laurier were all raised from birth in traditional French culture AND they are of French descent, can you again say the same about Baker or Curie ? I think I've made my point quite clear. Ciao. Epf ( talk) 04:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this contribution can possibly be considered OR. It is point of view though. I've just checked a few sources I have lying around and none support this point of view exactly, they do, however, say that Boas' work shows that skull shape is not genetically determined, and that claims that skull shape differences between groups of people are "innate" or "genetic" are now treated with skepticism. Of course this still means that differences in anatomy can be used to identify what ethnic group a person comes from (as you know being a physical anthropologist), but this does not imply that these differences are genetic in origin. We know that the heads of newborn babies are extremely maleable (indeed many cultures deliberately deform the shape of the head, but this is due to cultural practice rather than genetics). Anyway I agree with you that this pov statement is not supported by a citation at present. If I find one I might put it back in, I do know that anthropologists generally do not think skull shape has any genetic significance. Alun ( talk) 19:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Wow its you...lol...thats crazy? Ya for sure. We should work together! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Evan...how do you get all those ethnic and religious banners from as I want to improve on my page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galati ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your note and seriously hope we can work together cordially; I will strive to sume good faith always. Just to clarify some outstanding issues: social constructionists like Hobsbawm and Freidlander and Sider do not think that all ethnic markers are of recent invention, but they honestly do think that many and in some cases most are. Now, I acnowledge that there are others who do not see ethnicity the same way as these guys; who either see it as biological or as resting on age-old customs. And I acnolwedge that this other POV must be represented. But let us represent all notable POV's accurately, rather than in wishy-washy fashion. A final note: a see no value in applying the word "ethnic" anachronistically and it would violate WP:NOR to say "according to x, Jewish ethnicity is a, b, and c; according to the following sources Marx posessed traits a, b, and c; therefore Marx was an ethnic jew." This chain of reasoning violates Wikipedia policy. You need to provide a qualified source that states that Marx was ethnically a Jew. Also, we have to comply with WP:NPOV an WP:V which states that Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth. At most we cold say that "According to historian M, Marx was an ethnic jew." Would could never say "Marx was an ethnic Jew as that would violate our policy. I hope I have conveyed my reasoning to you in a clear and respectful way. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I am looking forward to it also. I see you have read the Ronald Cohen article - I hiope you found it interesting. Joan Vincent wrote an article in the same publication which I recommend - it may be a good source for the ethnic group article, I am not sure, I have not read it in a long time. And I hope one day you have time to read the Friedlander book which is very fun reading and sound scholarship. About Jewish ethnic identity ... I have not done any research on German - Jewish ethnic/national research early 19th century. I am sure that we agree that at least some Germans, not just in the mid 20th or late 19th century but even earlier, had very different notions of the German "nation" (we would have to find out what words besides volk they used, if any properly translate as ethnicity or nation) than not just Hilter but even Bismark. Now, this is very indirect, but if you have any interest in Jewish ethnic identity I highly recommend this as a starting place: Shaye J.D. Cohen 1999 The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties, Berkeley: University of California Press. Best,
Slrubenstein |
Talk 10:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Florentine Histories is an article I have attempted to translate from it:Istorie Fiorentine - I saw that you speak italian at an "advanced" level, I would appreciate your help.-- Kiyarrlls ton 00:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Epf! Thanks for your note. In fact I was the one that inserted the map that has factual innacuracies in most of the articles, but then, when comparing to other maps and also in some discussions with other editors, and also when comparing to the source map I mentioned, the errors started being to much to accept it. And in fact it is not sourced - I mean, we do know what is the source (yes the site is still on), but the site does not source the map with references, unlike the one I mentioned (which also has some problems and there is an small discussion going on at the Commons), which has an extended bibliography supporting it (see the link for the pdf version). The map you re-inserted has many problems: the Aquitanian area is too small and it does not take into account the ambiguities regarding some of the Astur or Pyrenean tribes and even trans-Pyrenean tribes (for example the area marked A1 is presented as Iberian, when it is know by every other source to be Aquitanian), as well as the ambiguities regarding interpenetration between Iberian and Aquitanian zones; It treats the Oritani as Iberian when many sources say they were Hispano-Celt (there is some discussion about this and the map I made is still not perfect treating them as unambiguously Celtic; the Lusitania area is too big, either because it extends excessively into modern Spanish Extremadura, ither because it goes all the way to the coast (thus erasing the area of the Celtic Turdolorum Oppida); It ignores the Pre-Celtic but Indo-European influence in Gallaecia and Asturias; it exagerates the Phoenician and Greek areas, in the sense that those were merely elite languages and not overall populacional languages; It does not distinguishes the specific area of the Turdetani, which most authors (beginning with Strabo!) say had a different language from the Iberians, being the most consensual and modern hipotesys that is was descendent from Tartessian; It fails to see that by 250 to 200 BCC the Conni area of the Algarve and Lower Alentejo did no longer speak a Tartessian derived language, but was pratically all "celtized" by the Celtici (even if the Conni still existed, there seem to have been a language and cultural shift); The boundaries between languages groups (and now I mean within each big family), are excessively weel defined, not concordant with the specific geographical implantion of tribal groups according to many other sources, giving relevance to some groups and forgeting others, confusing Roman provinvial boundaries with ethno-linguistics one (there were no exact matches) and confusing tribal groups with linguistic ones, inventing language names or varities (see its site) that no source ever mentions!! As you can see there are many problems... The map I made is not at all perfect, but it does try to correct these issues - it still needs work, though. Of course it would be better to be able to work in a better drawing program that the one that produced it, but I can't seem to find how Inkscape works!! Do have any lights on that? Hope to hear from you! The Ogre ( talk) 17:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Epf. I would not like you to feel that you are being bashed or anything like that. I believe that you have a genuine interest for the subject but also that you hurry to reach conclussions where things are not very clear. It's surely not your fault, after all there are a zillion theories around, with more or (often) less fundamentals.
Regarding the maps (I understand you were also the author of that other map that ended being deleted), there is a big difference between an objective map like this one (or my own creation: this one) and a biased interpretation like this one. The latter adds maybe some valuable data in some areas where it can be reasonably confirmed (by historical sources, for instance) that were Celtic or whatever but the price it pays is too large, specially for an encyclopedic site like this, because it presumes too much. For instance we have just zero reasons to think that the Cantabri were Celtic and instead we have some reasons to believe they could be Basque/Aquitanian because Roman sources mention they intervened in favor of their Aquitanian "relatives" against Caesar. The situation of Celtization in other areas (Galicia for instance, Asturias even more) is also very obscure. Classical (unfounded but widespread) theories are wiped out by new discoveries, like the Basque texts of Veleia, etc.
We should be more humble and admit we just don't know when we actually don't. This applies for scholars as for laymen. For you, for me and for The Ogre, who happens to be the author of that map (just noticed) and who has comitted a brutal error claiming that the Talayotic culture was still alive in the 2nd century (it ended c. 700 BCE apparently - and I have not the slightest idea of what came next). In such cases it's better to leave a blank.
Regards, -- Sugaar ( talk) 06:47, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm fed up with our constant disagreements about what an "ethnic group" is. I don't think it's productive for either of us. So I've asked on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups if it is possible to formulate a guideline about how we view ethnic groups on Wikipedia. I've tried to frame the request in a neutral way, but of course I have given my point of view. I think it's only fair for me to leave this message so you can go and give your point of view as well. I'm happy to admit that I might be wrong on this, but I think I understand it. Obviously you think you are correct and I think I'm correct. The best thing to do is to get a good guideline about how we should think about ethnic group membership on Wikipedia, to do this the ethnic group wikiproject is the obvious place. All the best. Alun ( talk) 07:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I have edited the talk page for french people for clarity [3]. I took the liberty of removing the bullet points. If you want to use bullet points on a conversation, try to do it like this (look at the code to see it):
As you can see, you can use the bullet points and indent at the same time, and this helps other editors to see at what comments you are answering to. I hope this was useful for you -- Enric Naval ( talk) 16:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
You did not provide any evidence that the US State Department identifies a French ethnic group. Up the State Department does, you have not provided us with that evidence. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Ethnic groups: Celtic and Latin with Teutonic, Slavic, North African, Sub-Saharan African, Indochinese, and Basque minorities.
Also:
PEOPLE:
Since prehistoric times, France has been a crossroads of trade, travel, and invasion. Three basic European ethnic stocks-- Celtic, Latin, and Teutonic (Frankish)--have blended over the centuries to make up its present population. France's birth rate was among the highest in Europe from 1945 until the late 1960s. Since then, its birth rate has fallen but remains higher than that of most other west European countries. Traditionally, France has had a high level of immigration. More than 1 million Muslims immigrated in the 1960s and early 1970s from North Africa, especially Algeria. About 85% of the population is Roman Catholic, 10% Muslim, less than 2% Protestant, and about 1% Jewish. However, the government does not keep statistics on religious affiliation, and according to a January 2007 poll, 51% of respondents describe themselves as Catholic, and another 31% describe themselves as having no religious affiliation. In 2004, there were over 6 million Muslims, largely of North African descent, living in France. France is home to both the largest Muslim and Jewish populations in Europe.
I hope this clarifies the situation somewhat. You are correct though that it does not specifically mention the "French ethnic group" so I see your point. I already know more accurate and specific sources are needed, so theres not much that can really be added in article right now. It is itself in a current state of massive OR and unverified claims. Epf ( talk) 22:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I do not think we disagree. As I have said, I do not believe we should exclude any notable view from a verifiable source - as long as it is accurately and precisely represented, and the view clearly identified and when possible contextualized. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that you don't actually know the meaning of the word "remarkable". This is the OED definition "Worthy of remark, notice or observation; hence, extraordinary, unusual, singular." Every paper that discusses human genetic diversity notes that we are genetically a relatively homogeneous species, these papers are written by people who do seem to think that this information is worthy of remark and that it makes our species unusual, extraordinary or singular. If they did not think it worthy of remark then the papers would not mention it. I have four papers citing this fact, I could introduce many many more that also make this claim. It is therefore remarkable because every paper that discusses this fact remarks upon it. This is simple English Epf. You seem to be under the impression that the word "remarkable" means something like "very" or "exceedingly", it does not mean this, it means worthy of remark, or if you like noteworthy. Alun ( talk) 07:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Watch your personal observations, you have called me "ignorant", have claimed that I am "twisting" the points you make, have stated that I have made "ridiculous statements". The fact is I don't "personally disagree with them", I am merely pointing out that the sources don't support you. Indeed I try to make it clear in my posts on Wikipedia that when I am expressing my personal opinion it is just that, my opinion and not from a source, though most of my opinions are derived from evidence and how experts have interpreted it. I always try to support my observations by citing reliable sources and certainly don't have any particular bias, I have no strong beliefs except that we should accurately report what experts in the subject say. You openly admit that you want to include original research when you say "I provided some viewpoints from my own analysis as well as others", Wikipedia does not publish original research, it is not interested in your analysis only the analyses of reliable sources. As for your claim that "My views are clearly supported by genetics and anthropology" this is demonstrably not the case.
You need to distinguish between a "migration" and a "mass migration". We can claim that migration is true even if there was only a single person migrating every generation, and very few experts would contend that no migration took place at all. Most experts have formed a consensus that there were probably small piecemeal migrations by elite warrior groups that dominated the native peoples.
Most would now agree that the migrants arrived in mixed groups, not as distinct ethnic bands, as nineteenth century savants assumed.... The migration of the Anglo-Saxons was not a Volkerwanderung like that of the Visigoths into Aquitaine or the Lombards into Italy. It was a piecemeal, cumulative process, extending over two centuries or more....Relations with the native British are still a largely obscure and difficult field. A few historians still hold to a vision of the British being swept westwards into Wales and the South-west. It is much more likely that a large proportion of the British population remained in place and was progressively dominated by a Germanic aristocracy, in some cases marrying into it and leaving Celtic names in the, admittedly very dubious, early lists of Anglo-Saxon dynasties.....As for the Anglo-Saxon groupings, no-one would now dream of thinking in terms of nationhood, either ethnically defined or set within the framework of a polity before the time of Alfred. The very notion of an ethnos: as a coherent, unchanging entity has received a great deal of attention of late from anthropologists, archaeologists and historians, though not much of this has been directed at the problems of early mediaeval Europe. It is clearly right to be cautious, or even highly sceptical, about identifying early mediaeval ethnoi as the ancestors of later peoples or nations...Ethnicity, however defined, is rarely a basis for nationhood and we may not seek the ancestors of the modern English among the migrants of the fifth and sixth centuries, any more than the modern French look back to the early Franks. The roots of nationhood are of much recent growth and they are still tender and vulnerable.
Anglo-Saxon Origins: The Reality of the Myth
Whether Germanic languages were already being spoken or not in eastern Britain is open to debate. These native peoples (and they may or may not have been Celtic speaking peoples, the truth is we just do not know) adopted the customs and habits of the elite group over time. Whether this was because they were culturally/linguistically similar, or whether it was due to the unbalancing of the elite group due to differential reproductive success (as the paper "Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England" suggests) is an open question. But the mass migration of several nations comprising hundreds of thousands of people, with a subsequent complete displacement of all "Britons" is a very different proposition, and few reliable academics (geneticists, archaeologists and historians) would support such a theory. Catherine Hills states in her book "The Origins of the English"
In general, there is a problem in this area of research in that geneticists often (and the press almost always) seem to assume that ethnicity is clearly and objectively definable, whereas social scientists, including archaeologists, have come to see it, as argued in this book, as a more fluid and complex phenomenon."
In her conclusions she gives a lucid account of the relationship between modern English people and "Anglo-Saxons"
All forms of evidence are consistent with the establishment of an elite who's cultural, and probably biological, ancestry, lay in northern Germany and southern Scandinavia. They took control of eastern Britain, probably piecemeal and over a long period. What that means in terms of population remains elusive because much of the evidence is interpretable in more than one way. The situation is unlikely to have been the same in all parts of England. In some places new rulers may have displaced only the native elite - and married some of their daughters - while elsewhere they were followed, sooner or later, by many humbler settlers. Not only may the "English" of Somerset and Hereford be closer to the Welsh in ancestry than to the East Anglians, but the populations of Wessex and Northumbria may have been different from each other long before the Vikings settled in the north.
In the end, the answer is probably that the English never were and never will be homogeneous, and also that they, like other peoples, are not ancestrally defined and divided from other peoples with a precise origin at any one time in the past. Another place to seek the origins of the English of today is now.
You have made some quite nasty comments about me and my motivations, I am always happy to include reliable sources in any article. I do not support the inclusion of the conclusions Wikipedia editors, this constitutes OR, I do not support the inclusion of single povs, I have never encouraged users not include a pov just because I do not agree with it. I have no strong feelings about the origins of the English, and have never pushed any specific pov, I have only encouraged the accurate inclusion of povs from reliable sources. The mass migrationist/displacement theory of the origins of the English is a relevant theory to include, but it is not the only one, and it is not a theory that has a great deal of support amongst experts. Furthermore many experts do see the mass migrationist/displacement theory of the origins of the English as a "creation myth", see Francis Pryor again but also
The historical sources, then, are now considered by many to be of more use in teaching us about the social and political climate of the periods in which they were compiled, and as records containing first-hand information about the origin myths, legends and traditions of the British people, rather than as strictly factual sources....[t]he 'Coming of the Saxons' is now so much a part of our national mythology that it is often not realised that the origins of the people who lived in the eastern and southern part of Britain, now known as the English, have not always been traced back to Germanic invaders or migrants from the continent...In the latter half of the 20th century, however, thinking about these [historical] sources [eg Gildas, Bede] changed fundamentally, and archaeological research began to focus on context, process and patterning, rather than on fitting in with historians' views of events. The argument over the biological identity of the people of 5th century Britain has since been played down, in favour of the more 'anthropological' aim of determining and understanding evidence for the construction and maintenance of social identity in the early medieval period. [5]
and Margarita Díaz-Andreu makes the point that
Now that archaeologists have begun to deconstruct the naive way in which archaeology has thought about material culture and about "cultures" (Shennan 1989, Diaz-Andreu 1996, Jones 1997) there is no easy way to deal with ethnic identity. I would suggest that, as in many other matters in archaeology, we will never know for certain how ethnicity operated amongst past peoples. Keeping it on the agenda will help us better understand (our healthy lack of knowledge about) them.
Comment on "Archaeologists and Migrations: A Problem of Attitude? by Heinrich Härke
These are all relevant points of view held by reputable expert academics, but none of them support your contention about what experts think. It is incorrect to claim that there is a consensus that supports your belief in this regard, and we are bound to include all points of view, whether we support them or not. The English people article is not primarily concerned with the origins of the English, it is primarily concerned with the English as a modern identity group, much of what I and you have written on the talk page not directly relevant to the article, it's much more relevant to the Anglo-Saxons article and the Sub-Roman Britain article. As such I have left this message here. Alun ( talk) 05:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
The sources do not state that the relationships between past and present identity groups are difficult to decipher, they claim that it is 'impossible to know how people in the past identified, we cannot ask them, and it is inappropriate to make judgments about the identity of past peoples from material culture. But the point is that I am not trying to "prove" anything, (except that there are reliable sources that contradict you, even though you claimed no such sources exist). I am merely pointing out that the "mass migration" idea is a theory and other theories exist that interpret the evidence differently.One reason for exploring the origins of the English is because their identity matters not only to those who identify themselves as English but also to all the other peoples with whom the English have, and have had, relationships of all kinds. Another is that this is an example of a national origin myth.
Seeing your comments on Talk:French people, I have to tell you that WP:3RR is not a free pass to revert three times per day the same change without addressing the issues on the talk page -- Enric Naval ( talk) 13:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi. I hope you don't take my last comments as turning against you. You have very valid points. Personally, however, I've always had some misgivings about making this a "Science", so I naturally lean towards the more liberal interpretation. Nonetheless, I think the term has room for a broader definition to include the "perception". The defence is too strong.
On another note, I removed Occitans from
Italians because I think the intent is to compare the northern Italians to
Central Europe. Again you are 100% correct, but this is after all Wikipedia. :)
Dionix (
talk) 22:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
True, I see your point, and thanks for taking part in the discussions in any case. Epf ( talk) 23:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Epf. I read your comments on Talk:Italians, but they do not really respond to my question- which is in effect directly a response to the issue on the French talk page. Also, I'm not versed in this sort of stuff (I'm more of a history buff), but I don't agree with your assessment of Italians as a homogeneous people. As I understand it, the base is actually many original peoples (Brutti, Oscans, Venetics, Etrucscans, etc.) and also early waves of Greeks, Phoenicians, Gauls, etc., which became Latinised but not necessarily Latin. Add to this later waves of Lombards, Saracens, Albanians, Slavs etc., etc. and you definitely do not have a homogeneous people. Looking at it this way, and in the spirit of the French debate, the situation is such that we are talking about a cultural group- not an ethnic group. Perhaps it is because the "mixing" came earlier that we delineate the Italian situation from the French? The entire ethnic definition seems dubious to me unless it is broadened in scope- as you very well know, something the people on the French page do not support. Dionix ( talk) 21:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
On the Kinship talk page you said we are making progress. I hope so, and would be glad. Now, to answer your question, I still maintain that descent groups like lineages and clans, and referential systems like kinship terminologies, are not relevant to ethnicity. They are relevant to "tribes" but tribe and ethnic group are not synonymous - that would void both terms of analytic rigor. Cohen rightly points out sometimes the words themsleves are misapplied. But when one could (and perhaps for Cohen should) refer to so-called tribe as an ethnic group, what makes it an ethnic group is something that transcends and is beyond descent groups and kinships systems. They just are not connected.
You are correct that there is another view of ethnicity, which you are associating with "descent." I would like to be constructive and cooperative and suggest to you a way that you can explore this dimension within the terms of mainstrean anthropology. I think the key thing is to understand that "descent" means many things, and can be defined narrowly and broadly, and there is a narrow usage that is related to kinship but NOT ethnicity. There is a broader sense that is related to ethnicity, but not kinship.
So how to talk about the stuff you are so interested in? The key word is "primordial ties" and "primordialism." You will notice that I recently added an extensive quote fromn Eric Wolf to the Ethnic Group article. It represents what I believe is the mainstream view of anthropologists as to the nature of race and ethnicity, and should not be removed. But I acknowledge that it is by no means the only notable important view held by social scientists. Wolf himself, in this extended quote says he rejets primordialism. What I propose to you is that in order to maintain balance in the article, you add a new section on "Ethnicity and primordial ties." This does not mention the word decent but I think you will find it addresses that view you think I am neglecting.
I suggest you draw on two sources in developing this section:
The views expressed in these two essays are usually presented by anthropologists as the "alternative" to Frederick Barth and Eric Wolf. I think the "Ethnic Group" article should and could never present one unified or synthetic view of ethnic groups, but it would be complying with NPOV and helping educate readers if it clearly explained the differences between Shils/Geertz, Barth, and Wolf.
I just added a lot of Wolf. At some point perhaps one of us could add more Barth. Giuven your own interests and concerns, with respect I suggest to you that you find the Shils and Geertz article and work on incorporating their views into the article. Searching good academic databases may yeild to you more articles published in major peer-reviewed journals (like American Anthropologist, Current Anthropology and American Ethnologist) that discuss ethnicity in relation to the ideas set forward by Shihls and Geertz ... articles that cite the two essays I cite above. You would problably enjoy such articles. I promise you, as long as you do not present theirs as the only or best view of ethnic groups, and do present them as different from Barth and Wolf, I will make no objection to your adding their views and explaining them at length. If I understand your intereses correctly, you should enjoy working through their stuff. I hope you do. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
PS After you read Shils and Geertz, I would recommend you look at some recent stuff that is critical of them e.g.:
Henry Hale, 2004, "Explaining Ethnicity" in Comparative Political Studies, Vol. 37, No. 4, 458-485
If you are really interested in anthropological studies of ethnicity, you should read actual ethnographies and not just articles. This book is among the most cuting-edge (I have not read it, I do not know what it says, i can only tell you it got fantastic reviews and is heavily cited and assigned in university courses: Liisa Malkki, 1995 Purity and Exile, Chicago: Univesity of Chicago Press Cheers, Slrubenstein | Talk 16:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
You ask, "Considering the pertinence between the two articles, do you agree for now with at least leaving the current link to Kinship on the Ethnic group article ?" No for the simple reason that what they mean by kinship is not what the article on kinship talks about - they are not refering to the institutions, roles, and the body of theories anthropologists study as "kinship." I hope you can find the articles and we can discuss appropriate ways to incorporate them into the Ehnic Groups article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
As a regularly contributing UK Wikipedian, we were wondering if you wanted to contribute to the Oxford bid to host the 2010 Wikimania conference. Please see here for details of how to get involved, we need all the help we can get if we are to put in a compelling bid.
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You may also wish to attend the next London meet-up at which both of these issues will be discussed. If you can't attend this meetup, you may want to watch Wikipedia:Meetup, for updates on future meets.
We look forward to hearing from you soon, and we send our apologies for this automated intrusion onto your talk page!
Addbot ( talk) 22:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Rather than let this develop into an edit war, which could happen, could you please discuss this here? [6] - thanks, hopefully we can come to a consensus on this. Doug Weller ( talk) 12:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Doug Weller ( talk) 05:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Please do as Doug says and tone down your language, comment on content and not users. This edit summary is totally unacceptable. See WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:CIV. You've now been warned twice, please take these warnings seriously. Alun ( talk) 05:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
You are mistaken. AMH+1 is the Antlantic Modal Cluster, this is the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and all other haplotypes that are only a single mutational step from it. Don't mix up haplotypes and haplogroups, R1b (and all haplogroups) is defined by a specific SNP ( Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), so all R1b haplogroup Y chromosomes have the M343 mutation. Haplotypes are defined by Y-STRs (Y- Short Tandem Repeat), that is they are defined by the number of repeats in a series of short tandem repeats, they are not defined by any SNP. AMH ( Atlantic Modal Haplotype is a specific set of STR loci that contain a specific set of alleles at these loci, this pattern of YSTR is exceptionally prevalent in R1b haplogroups across western Europe, but does not define any R1b haplogroups. In fact it's possible for a non R1b Y chromosome to have the AMH, though probably at a low frequency. The FMH (Frisian Modal Haplotype) for example is part of the Atlantic Modal Cluster, it varies from the AMH by only a single mutational step. In Capelli et al. they do not genotype for any R1b marker at all, instead they genotype for the R1 marker (M173) and the R1a1 marker (M17). So their analysis technically does not include any R1b identified haplogroups at all, they have identified only those Y chromosomes that belong to R1 and then a sub set of these that belong to R1a1, the cladogram at the bottom of page 982 shows this clearly, R1a1 is a sub group of R1xR1a1. R1xR1a1 defines that paraphyletic group that contains all R1 haplogroup Y chromosomes that do not have the R1a1 mutation. For Europe this is more or less equivalent to R1b (though there could, for example, be R1* Y chromosomes, though they would be extremely rare). What Capelli et al. do in order to further subdivide the R1xR1a1 haplogroup, which is enormous given that it contains well over 70% of all Y chromosomes from the British Isles, is to genotype all R1xR1a1 Y chromosomes for the AMH+1 haplotype and call this a sub set of R1xR1a1. So technically you can't identify R1b Y chromosoems from this study, but practically you can generate this figure by adding the AMH+1 and R1xR1a1 numbers together. Likewise 2.47+1 is a sub-set of haplotypes that has been derived from the IxI1b2 haplogroup (all I Y chromosomes excluding those belonging to I1b2), to get haplogroup I one needs to add IxI1b2 + I1b2 + 2.47+1, this is more correct because they do actually genotype for M170, the SNP that defines haplogroup I. The Y chromosome tree has changed quite a bit over the last year or so, and the haplogroup I1b2 no longer exists, the mutation M26 now defines the haplogroup I2a2. What used to be called I1a is now called I1, and what used to be called I1b is now I2. [7] These are sensible rationalisations of the tree. Interestingly the greatest division in Europe on a Y chromosome scale is the subdivision of haplogroup F into groups IJ and K. Subgroups of IJ include haplogroup I, subgroups of K include P (including R1a) and NO, N being dominant in north Eastern Europe (Finland for example) and Asia and O being dominant in East Asia. It's odd but from a Y chromosome perspective Mongolians and Chinese N and O Y chromosomes are closer to Finnish N3 and western European R1b/R1a1 than any of these are to eastern English and central European I Y chromosomes. The subgroups of P are distributed throughout Europe, east Asia and the Americas, Native American Q Y chromosomes are much closer to European R Y chromosomes that European R Y chromosomes are to European I Y chromosomes. Alun ( talk) 09:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm working on compiling a book containing information about almost all Non-indigenous ethnic groups living or working in Pakistan. The population of a particular ethnic group would be obtain respectively from their diplomatic missions in Pakistan including regions with significant populations, languages spoken and religious affiliations. I'm not very good with writing so it would be great, if you would like to collaborate with me.-- 116.71.53.25 ( talk) 06:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Please see Talk:English Defence League#Facebook support regarding you last edit to that article. __ meco ( talk) 10:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Please stop your
disruptive editing. If you continue to
vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at
Muammar al-Gaddafi, you may be
blocked from editing. You've been on here for 6 years; you very well know what you did was in fact vandalism.
Toa
Nidhiki
05 18:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)