Aloha, Eekadog, and thanks for your contributions -- points well-taken. As you may already have noted, the POV battle rages on Hawaii-related articles other than this one: Apology Resolution, Kingdom of Hawaii, Overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, Legal status of Hawaii, and others. I don't know exactly where you are coming from, and it's not that important; I, for one, am not connected with any activist group (i.e. I'm no radical), but simply find the POV pushing and sophomoric reasoning from a certain editor to be an affront to both the spirit of Wikipedia and to rational discourse in so many ways it's impossible to articulate without violating WP:CIVIL. This has been going on far too long and it's time to end the POV pushing. I'm willing to take the lead (or feel free yourself!) on much of this, but some additional backup would be great. In any case, mustering forces is clearly in order -- if you are interested, your help in bringing the articles back to some semblance of a fair and balanced perspective (to steal back a phrase from a certain right-wing propoganda outlet) would be mucho appreciated. Cheers, Arjuna 06:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
One other thing just to provide a couple of examples (pardon if you're already following this). Quite inexplicably, an understanding of basic definitions seems to have escaped said editor -- see Talk:Kingdom_of_Hawaii#Overthrow.3F_What_overthrow.3F. Good for a laugh if nothing else. Talk:Overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy is the main battle front I'm waging, slowly, in what semblance of free time I actually have. Anyway, just FYI. Mahalo, Arjuna 07:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey Eekadog, JK and I have been having a discussion on usage of the term "Hawaiian". I think we're at an impasse and need other people to add their two cents. Do you have any thoughts on this? Thanks and aloha. Arjuna 10:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC) (P.S. To JK, who will also probably read this: this is a genuine call for consensus.)
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent contribution removed content from
Native Hawaiians. Please be careful when editing pages and do not remove content from Wikipedia without a good reason, which should be specified in the
edit summary. Take a look at the
welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment again, please use the
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Gscshoyru
18:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey eekadog, what part did you think was WP:OR? The article referred to the controversy of the Akaka bill regarding testimony given on 9/5, and both the testimony and the bill include the "indigenous issue". I can sort of see how you might see this connecting of dots as WP:OR, and I can find a better cite for you if you'd like, but can we at least agree that something should be said about the controversy if we're going to use the "i-word" in the lead? I'm more than happy to move the controversy section till after the break, but if so, we should probably avoid using the "i-word" without context. Is that an acceptable compromise for you? -- JereKrischel 03:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe Viriditas is suggesting that if we can't work things out, we'll go through some sort of formal mediation process. Sometimes this means locking down the article to prevent edits until things are settled, and it can also include strict 3RR violation checking and blocking people from editing. I'm more than happy to try and satisfy both of our positions with you, but it certainly will take more work and discussion between us. If you'd like to skip right to mediation, we can do that too, though - let me know what you think. Mahalo. -- JereKrischel 21:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a ploy -- don't fall for it. Thurston Twigg-Smith is a Hawaii "native" since he was born here. Arjuna 22:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Where did V say this? It's hard to keep up with the flurry of changes. Cheers, Arjuna 22:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to let you know if you don't already, there's a pretty hot discussion raging on the Talk:Legal status of Hawaii page on the subject of the consideration of the U.S.' actions as potentially illegal being "undue weight" under WP policy, per a formal request (by LarryQ) for outside comment. Everyone who was previously involved is being asked to give their comments. I know you had participated in the page itself, though I don't remember if this specific issue affected you. Please give your mana'o if you have time. Mahalo! Aloha, --Laualoha 01:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
p.s. what's this "next level" stuff? Is it the same thing happening on the LSofH page, or different? Missed it...
Hey Eekadog, thanks for your help in trying to keep JK honest. This endless reverting thing is pretty annoying, and it's endlessly frustrating to have to keep trying to get him to accept that his versions are pretty typically POV. But someone's gotta do it! Anyways, thanks. The description of the Akaka Bill isn't perfect, but the compromise you guys reached (with the exception of his continued insistence on "any amount of", which is tendentious) is ok enough as far as I'm concerned, so thanks for your work on that too. Cheers, Arjuna 03:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | The
neutrality of this section is
disputed. |
Aloha eekadog, could you please illustrate on the talk pages what kind of problems you have with my edits? Both Arjuna and I have worked on compromises on several of the articles you keep reverting. Specifically, removing good cites to Kuykendall really isn't appropriate. If you have problems with tone and language, I'm happy to work with you, but you're not being very constructive right now, no offense.
Please, let me know what your specific problems are, and I'll help you. I'd hate for this to get to a 3RR issue, but I believe that's where it's heading. Mahalo. -- JereKrischel 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
ha ha - that was funny! Sorry, I'm butting in for no reason, but you guys make me laugh... Aloha, --Laualoha 10:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Aloha Eekadog, thanks for the reverts of JK's continued mischief-making. I think I'm already at 2RR on the Republic of Hawaii page and don't want to go over by accident. If you share my perspective on the Pitzer v. TTS issue and want to revert JK's deletion of Pitzer, that would be much appreciated. Btw, if you haven't seen my comment on the Republic of Hawaii talk page re: TTS, it may be of interest. Mahalo, Arjuna 00:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Aloha Eekadog. The discussion between JK and myself on Talk:Republic of Hawaii has ramped up and reached an impasse re: whether or not TTS's book is a vanity publication (and thus not a reliable source under Wikipedia guidelines). Care to weigh in? Mahalo, Arjuna 09:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I hear ya, believe me. Won't blame you if you opt out, but hope you might put in two cents. The way JK "wins" is by wearing people out, but my strategy for dealing with a pigheaded, bloody-minded editor is to be equally tenacious. Anyhow, I think one way to deal with this seemingly ingrained tendency is to knock out the foundations he relies on for (spurious) claims to authority. TTS is clearly a divisive, fringe figure and should not be accorded anything approaching the same level of legitimacy as a mainstream commentator or scholar of whatever stripe. (Hi JK, I know you're listening!) Anyway, Cheers, Arjuna 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I assume the above is JK speaking? If so, JK, this is NOT helpful and as you know is directly contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. In lashing out this way, you may have just inadvertently tipped your hand that you are more intent on pushing a POV than working together to get articles that are more encyclopediac. We suspected this, but thanks for confirming it. Now, about 3RR.... this makes me far less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll give you 5 minutes. Arjuna 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
JK has been reported. Regrettable but necessary -- it's called accountability. Sorry JK. Arjuna 00:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey eek, I liked your edits to Native Hawaiians, but I made some changes to that section - it seemed almost to imply that all native Hawaiians lived in Hawaii and never attended public schools anywhere else. Not sure if what I did will pass muster with you, so please, check out the edit, and adjust it as you see fit (making note of the national presence of native Hawaiians, of course). Mahalo -- JereKrischel 08:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey Eekadog, good to see you back again (I think -- being that the cause is likely related to the reemergence of a certain editor, his sockpuppet, or his clone, this is not an unambiguously happy event.) Anyhow, I don't know the answer to your question offhand, but I've got all the main references and will look it up. You probably already do know that their choice of barracks was suspicious in its proximity to the Palace, when a more logical choice would have been right somewhere on Nuuanu. Anyway, I will check when I have time, and thanks for stepping back up to the plate on the reverts. Shoot me an email if you like -- we can still remain anonymous if that's what you want. Aloha, Arjuna ( talk) 20:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Eekadog, need your help on the Overthrow article. You may wish to refer to the back and forth discussion on the [ talk page]. The potential COI issue was also discussed there and on YS's talk page. I don't know how you feel about these issues, but your input would be much appreciated. He just reverted again, and frankly, I feel a re-revert is entirely justified, but I think given where things are (YS seems unamenable to logic if you ask me) it would have more weight if the reverts had the consensus of other editors, so I'm loathe to do it myself (I'm already at 2RR today). Cheers and mahalo, Arjuna ( talk) 02:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take note and refrain from constant edit warring on the Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom article. This is your warning. Please use the article's talk page to discuss changes with your fellow contributors rather than reverting. Scarian Call me Pat 15:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Aloha! You look like someone who might be interested in joining the Hawaii WikiProject and so I thought I'd drop you a line and invite you! We'd love to have you help us :-) — Viriditas | Talk 01:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Aloha, Eekadog, and thanks for your contributions -- points well-taken. As you may already have noted, the POV battle rages on Hawaii-related articles other than this one: Apology Resolution, Kingdom of Hawaii, Overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy, Legal status of Hawaii, and others. I don't know exactly where you are coming from, and it's not that important; I, for one, am not connected with any activist group (i.e. I'm no radical), but simply find the POV pushing and sophomoric reasoning from a certain editor to be an affront to both the spirit of Wikipedia and to rational discourse in so many ways it's impossible to articulate without violating WP:CIVIL. This has been going on far too long and it's time to end the POV pushing. I'm willing to take the lead (or feel free yourself!) on much of this, but some additional backup would be great. In any case, mustering forces is clearly in order -- if you are interested, your help in bringing the articles back to some semblance of a fair and balanced perspective (to steal back a phrase from a certain right-wing propoganda outlet) would be mucho appreciated. Cheers, Arjuna 06:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
One other thing just to provide a couple of examples (pardon if you're already following this). Quite inexplicably, an understanding of basic definitions seems to have escaped said editor -- see Talk:Kingdom_of_Hawaii#Overthrow.3F_What_overthrow.3F. Good for a laugh if nothing else. Talk:Overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy is the main battle front I'm waging, slowly, in what semblance of free time I actually have. Anyway, just FYI. Mahalo, Arjuna 07:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey Eekadog, JK and I have been having a discussion on usage of the term "Hawaiian". I think we're at an impasse and need other people to add their two cents. Do you have any thoughts on this? Thanks and aloha. Arjuna 10:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC) (P.S. To JK, who will also probably read this: this is a genuine call for consensus.)
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent contribution removed content from
Native Hawaiians. Please be careful when editing pages and do not remove content from Wikipedia without a good reason, which should be specified in the
edit summary. Take a look at the
welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment again, please use the
sandbox. Thank you.
Gscshoyru
18:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hey eekadog, what part did you think was WP:OR? The article referred to the controversy of the Akaka bill regarding testimony given on 9/5, and both the testimony and the bill include the "indigenous issue". I can sort of see how you might see this connecting of dots as WP:OR, and I can find a better cite for you if you'd like, but can we at least agree that something should be said about the controversy if we're going to use the "i-word" in the lead? I'm more than happy to move the controversy section till after the break, but if so, we should probably avoid using the "i-word" without context. Is that an acceptable compromise for you? -- JereKrischel 03:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe Viriditas is suggesting that if we can't work things out, we'll go through some sort of formal mediation process. Sometimes this means locking down the article to prevent edits until things are settled, and it can also include strict 3RR violation checking and blocking people from editing. I'm more than happy to try and satisfy both of our positions with you, but it certainly will take more work and discussion between us. If you'd like to skip right to mediation, we can do that too, though - let me know what you think. Mahalo. -- JereKrischel 21:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a ploy -- don't fall for it. Thurston Twigg-Smith is a Hawaii "native" since he was born here. Arjuna 22:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Where did V say this? It's hard to keep up with the flurry of changes. Cheers, Arjuna 22:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to let you know if you don't already, there's a pretty hot discussion raging on the Talk:Legal status of Hawaii page on the subject of the consideration of the U.S.' actions as potentially illegal being "undue weight" under WP policy, per a formal request (by LarryQ) for outside comment. Everyone who was previously involved is being asked to give their comments. I know you had participated in the page itself, though I don't remember if this specific issue affected you. Please give your mana'o if you have time. Mahalo! Aloha, --Laualoha 01:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
p.s. what's this "next level" stuff? Is it the same thing happening on the LSofH page, or different? Missed it...
Hey Eekadog, thanks for your help in trying to keep JK honest. This endless reverting thing is pretty annoying, and it's endlessly frustrating to have to keep trying to get him to accept that his versions are pretty typically POV. But someone's gotta do it! Anyways, thanks. The description of the Akaka Bill isn't perfect, but the compromise you guys reached (with the exception of his continued insistence on "any amount of", which is tendentious) is ok enough as far as I'm concerned, so thanks for your work on that too. Cheers, Arjuna 03:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | The
neutrality of this section is
disputed. |
Aloha eekadog, could you please illustrate on the talk pages what kind of problems you have with my edits? Both Arjuna and I have worked on compromises on several of the articles you keep reverting. Specifically, removing good cites to Kuykendall really isn't appropriate. If you have problems with tone and language, I'm happy to work with you, but you're not being very constructive right now, no offense.
Please, let me know what your specific problems are, and I'll help you. I'd hate for this to get to a 3RR issue, but I believe that's where it's heading. Mahalo. -- JereKrischel 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
ha ha - that was funny! Sorry, I'm butting in for no reason, but you guys make me laugh... Aloha, --Laualoha 10:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Aloha Eekadog, thanks for the reverts of JK's continued mischief-making. I think I'm already at 2RR on the Republic of Hawaii page and don't want to go over by accident. If you share my perspective on the Pitzer v. TTS issue and want to revert JK's deletion of Pitzer, that would be much appreciated. Btw, if you haven't seen my comment on the Republic of Hawaii talk page re: TTS, it may be of interest. Mahalo, Arjuna 00:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Aloha Eekadog. The discussion between JK and myself on Talk:Republic of Hawaii has ramped up and reached an impasse re: whether or not TTS's book is a vanity publication (and thus not a reliable source under Wikipedia guidelines). Care to weigh in? Mahalo, Arjuna 09:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I hear ya, believe me. Won't blame you if you opt out, but hope you might put in two cents. The way JK "wins" is by wearing people out, but my strategy for dealing with a pigheaded, bloody-minded editor is to be equally tenacious. Anyhow, I think one way to deal with this seemingly ingrained tendency is to knock out the foundations he relies on for (spurious) claims to authority. TTS is clearly a divisive, fringe figure and should not be accorded anything approaching the same level of legitimacy as a mainstream commentator or scholar of whatever stripe. (Hi JK, I know you're listening!) Anyway, Cheers, Arjuna 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I assume the above is JK speaking? If so, JK, this is NOT helpful and as you know is directly contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. In lashing out this way, you may have just inadvertently tipped your hand that you are more intent on pushing a POV than working together to get articles that are more encyclopediac. We suspected this, but thanks for confirming it. Now, about 3RR.... this makes me far less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'll give you 5 minutes. Arjuna 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
JK has been reported. Regrettable but necessary -- it's called accountability. Sorry JK. Arjuna 00:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey eek, I liked your edits to Native Hawaiians, but I made some changes to that section - it seemed almost to imply that all native Hawaiians lived in Hawaii and never attended public schools anywhere else. Not sure if what I did will pass muster with you, so please, check out the edit, and adjust it as you see fit (making note of the national presence of native Hawaiians, of course). Mahalo -- JereKrischel 08:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Hey Eekadog, good to see you back again (I think -- being that the cause is likely related to the reemergence of a certain editor, his sockpuppet, or his clone, this is not an unambiguously happy event.) Anyhow, I don't know the answer to your question offhand, but I've got all the main references and will look it up. You probably already do know that their choice of barracks was suspicious in its proximity to the Palace, when a more logical choice would have been right somewhere on Nuuanu. Anyway, I will check when I have time, and thanks for stepping back up to the plate on the reverts. Shoot me an email if you like -- we can still remain anonymous if that's what you want. Aloha, Arjuna ( talk) 20:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Eekadog, need your help on the Overthrow article. You may wish to refer to the back and forth discussion on the [ talk page]. The potential COI issue was also discussed there and on YS's talk page. I don't know how you feel about these issues, but your input would be much appreciated. He just reverted again, and frankly, I feel a re-revert is entirely justified, but I think given where things are (YS seems unamenable to logic if you ask me) it would have more weight if the reverts had the consensus of other editors, so I'm loathe to do it myself (I'm already at 2RR today). Cheers and mahalo, Arjuna ( talk) 02:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Please take note and refrain from constant edit warring on the Overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom article. This is your warning. Please use the article's talk page to discuss changes with your fellow contributors rather than reverting. Scarian Call me Pat 15:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Aloha! You look like someone who might be interested in joining the Hawaii WikiProject and so I thought I'd drop you a line and invite you! We'd love to have you help us :-) — Viriditas | Talk 01:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)