Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Others (usu. Admins) will tell you at the top of their talk page what they want. (e.g. Some will be glad if you only bottom post, others won't mind if you interject so a thread stays together. Varying the Indenting level on Interjections is good manners. A quick 'diff' from your watchlist will usually show whether the answer was to you, or not. It's easy to click an item to remove it when the time has expired. Experment.
Welcome!
Hello, David s graff, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a
Wikipedian! Please
sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out
Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}}
on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
Best wishes! Fra nkB 21:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In reply to the message you sent me in User_talk:Jagged_85#Chinatown_Edits, I think you've got the wrong person. If you check the edits before mine, you'll notice that the vandalism was already there, though I didn't notice it myself earlier. I've already given a clear edit summary for each edit I made in that article, which you can see for yourself in the Chinatown history page. If you need to find the real vandal, you'll need to look back even further. Jagged 85 07:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I took up your early August comment to cite the instance of the IDF's use of ground troops in southern Lebanon during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon Conflict. Having been a noncombattant in the latter, I'm perhaps a little too close to the topic to be entirely objective, nor do I have time at present to search and provide the supportive references required to add this material to the article. So I noted my point on the Discussion page and would be interested in your response. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 14:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, You've put this comment [1] last year in the talk page of the article. I tried to improve it. Would you please check it now? Thanks a lot. -- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 05:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes. I worked on this article again today. Please review my changes and let me know what you think. David s graff 17:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I think,you are the one,i met in berlin some years ago, we wrote letters to eachother.At that time,i lived in romania,i hope you can remember.we visited berlin,we were 9 children,we slept at a church.now i live in germany,and tried manny times to get into contact with you,but i didn-t mannage that.now,if you remember me,you told me edy,than,please write me a short mail,my adress is *****@yahoo.de. thank you,and i hope,you are the david i know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.209.36 ( talk) 18:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Salam David, Thanks for your comment. I'm too busy and can't be active wikipedia.-- Seyyed( t- c) 05:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. I understand your good faith and I want to add that I don't use my biases or personal opinions in writing wikipedia. I would agree that adding chinese and Vietnamese names for every time the islands are mentioned makes the article longer than neccessary. I did that because there is one guy who only added chinese names, and it was also very nice of him to ask me to add the Vietnamese names. We can eliminate those chinese and Vietnamese names, only use English names outside of the table, which means the table with English, chinese, Vietnamese names should be kept. I also notice that the English names you got from CIA map, some of which are originated from Vietnamese names, some are from Chinese names. Finally, the neutrality of wikipedia cannot ignore the fact that China seized the Paracels from Vietnam in 1974, which you may have heard of that. Any dispute is just a tactic used to justify China's claim after everything is in their hands. Regards! Trananh1980 ( talk) 08:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi, David s graff. Question about this edit: by "20,000 viewers" do you mean the number of people attending her trial or viewing her execution or what? I think that should probably be clarified, since "viewers" usually means something rather different in the present day. Rivertorch ( talk) 10:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clear, 20,000 people came to the execution, pretty remarkable since, at the time, the population of Reading was about 3,000. See e.g. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jIkxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jKYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4103%2C9915630 David s graff ( talk) 19:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
i was reading thru the spin article, and i found an unfortunate confusion that you appear to have added in the article.
i note also on your talk page that you claim to be a physicist -- tho it's difficult for me to believe how you might have made such a fundamental error if that claim were true -- and i understand that those who refer to themselves as "wikipaedians" take poorly to others' edits of their additions, so upon discovering who had made the error, i thought to preempt any attempt to re-insert your error.
that quantity known as "spin" is definitely not a spinor.
(in any case, in the abstract and purest sense, even a spinor is a vector as a member of a vector space (a hilbert space) carrying a representation of a covering group of the special orthogonal group. in fact, the vector space that spinors inhabit must represent a DOUBLE cover of SO(3), which is precisely whence spinors get their behaviour of sign reversal upon being subjected to 360-degree spatial rotation: the "double cover" means that there is a 2:1 surjective homomorphism ("2 spinors per vector"), so the first rotation by 360 degrees maps the element of the spinor space into the same elemet of the vector space that the second 360-degree rotation does. for strictly geometric purposes, spinors are not tensors (vectors are tensors of the first rank), so in the geometric picture, spinors are often dissociated from vectors. but in the algebraic picture, they are certainly vectors, which is why we speak of the state vector of a system even when referring to spin-1/2 spin states...tho this is a mathematical digression.)
i'm afraid to tell you that you have completely misread whatever you thought tomonaga was telling you; surely such an eminent theorist would not so easily have led a reasonably informed physicist astray, so perhaps you can understand my scepsis! what a spinor is used for in terms of quantum mechanical spin is to represent the eigenstate of a spin-1/2-carrying quantum state. now, if you were confused by tomonaga's book for the layman, i may not be the right person to distill the concept any more clearly, but i'll try my best: the spinor, while carrying information on the possible results of a spin measurement, is not spin itself -- it merely represents of the spin state of a system (e.g. electron) that has the property of spin of magnitude ħ/2.
spin itself is an observable and therefore represented in the quantum formalism as something called an "hermitian operator" and in fact is a vector! more precisely, it is an axial vector ("pseudovector"), like all angular momenta, and therefore changes sign under parity transformations, but this distinction is rather trivial. the eigenvalues (the spin measurements) that result upon the application of the spin operators to a spin eigenstate are the +1/2 and -1/2 is the value of the spin state, along the axis of measurement, into which the measurement has "collapsed" the wavefunction. in essence, we premultiply a spinor by a spin operator (i.e., a scaled pauli matrix) to represent the physical act of measuring the spin of a spin-1/2 particle.
the formalism looks something like this:
where we have applied the spin-z operator to a random spin state χ, returning the value of the measurement (plus or minus ħ/2) and "collapsing" the state χ into an eigenstate of the spin-z operator, here labelled either spin up (+) or spin-down (-).
i'm not sure if this helps at all. i'm notable for my poor explanations. ._.
the end result is that the spin itself is a vector...an axial vector to be sure, but all angular momenta are axial vectors, so this subtlety should not present additional confusion. however, to call spin itself a "spinor" is an error: it is the spin wavefunction -- the particle's state -- and not the spin itself, which is represented by the spinor.
i hope you will not take this last exhortation with offence; i only mean to improve both wikipaedia and your own contributions here. i'm not sure why you are calling yourself a physicist on here, and while i certainly appreciate your interest in physical theory, it's probably advisable to avoid editing physics pages unless you are entirely certain that your edits are correct! i sincerely do appreciate the obvious interest in even relatively obscure laymen's texts like the tomonaga book, which i had never heard of before. (by the way, you may want to return to the article and remove the reference citation itself. i don't know how to do that.) however, they say about wikipaedia that all the pages are wrong, because experts don't go to the pages in their areas of expertise, and they can't identify errors in others! in fact, it's only by luck that i happened to notice your error this evening; it had been present for over a year!
to ensure that this project maintains an encyclopaedic level of accuracy, it's best to only edit when certain. after all, being interested in physics as you are, i am sure there are times that you rely on this resource for high-quality information: surely you would prefer the information be accurate! no offence meant and sorry to leave such a long message, but i wanted to ensure you knew it was done in good faith; i understand that registered editors can become quite defencive about their contributions being edited away. o.o 72.179.38.56 ( talk) 07:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I know that the EM field is described by the stress energy tensor, but there is an equivalent description as a 4-vector vector potential. Thats what I meant when I was describing the E&M field as a vector field. But you are right that if we want to play that game with spin, we need to make a space-time description of angular momentum. I guess that that would lead to the Dirac equation and the four gamma matrix version of spin.
Photons do carry angular momentum, and so the E&M field can carry angular momentum, even classically, e.g., as circularly-polarized light. So I think that it is perfectly appropriate to talk about the angular momentum density of an E&M field without having to put it in quotes. I'm not sure that thinking about angular momentum as a bi-vector is really helpful. When studied classically, we think of angular momentum as a derived quantity, as x × p. But I think that the whole point of spin is that angular momentum really is a fundamental quantum phenomenon with its own set of transformations. And of course, Wikipedia is our source for how to find out how angular momentum behaves relativistically, "as an antisymmetric second order tensor" Angular_momentum#Angular_momentum_.28modern_definition.29.
The more I think about this, the more I think I was right with my edit. There are some relations between spin and the classical vector angular momentum. But there are technical defferences which should not really be discussed in detail in the introduction to the spin article. Rather, we should just mention that there are differences, discuss them more fully in the body of the article (which we do) and link to pages and external references that go into more detail for people who want to delve into the differences (which I do with my link to spinor and to Tomonaga's article). Since even non-quantum angular momentum stops behaving like a vector relativistically, I think its sufficient to just warn the reader that they should not accept the vector representation of spin as more than a useful metaphor in some instances, and warn them of possible complexities with links.
I'm totally confused by what you and the IP commentor mean by "Spin Itself". I think we all completely understand how spin transforms under rotation (spin 1/2 by Pauli matrices classically, by gamma matrices relativistically, spin 1 as a Vector, e.g., by standard rotation matrices). I think that has to be sufficient.
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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 11:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Others (usu. Admins) will tell you at the top of their talk page what they want. (e.g. Some will be glad if you only bottom post, others won't mind if you interject so a thread stays together. Varying the Indenting level on Interjections is good manners. A quick 'diff' from your watchlist will usually show whether the answer was to you, or not. It's easy to click an item to remove it when the time has expired. Experment.
Welcome!
Hello, David s graff, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a
Wikipedian! Please
sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out
Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}}
on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
Best wishes! Fra nkB 21:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
In reply to the message you sent me in User_talk:Jagged_85#Chinatown_Edits, I think you've got the wrong person. If you check the edits before mine, you'll notice that the vandalism was already there, though I didn't notice it myself earlier. I've already given a clear edit summary for each edit I made in that article, which you can see for yourself in the Chinatown history page. If you need to find the real vandal, you'll need to look back even further. Jagged 85 07:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I took up your early August comment to cite the instance of the IDF's use of ground troops in southern Lebanon during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon Conflict. Having been a noncombattant in the latter, I'm perhaps a little too close to the topic to be entirely objective, nor do I have time at present to search and provide the supportive references required to add this material to the article. So I noted my point on the Discussion page and would be interested in your response. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 14:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, You've put this comment [1] last year in the talk page of the article. I tried to improve it. Would you please check it now? Thanks a lot. -- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 05:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes. I worked on this article again today. Please review my changes and let me know what you think. David s graff 17:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I think,you are the one,i met in berlin some years ago, we wrote letters to eachother.At that time,i lived in romania,i hope you can remember.we visited berlin,we were 9 children,we slept at a church.now i live in germany,and tried manny times to get into contact with you,but i didn-t mannage that.now,if you remember me,you told me edy,than,please write me a short mail,my adress is *****@yahoo.de. thank you,and i hope,you are the david i know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.209.36 ( talk) 18:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Salam David, Thanks for your comment. I'm too busy and can't be active wikipedia.-- Seyyed( t- c) 05:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. I understand your good faith and I want to add that I don't use my biases or personal opinions in writing wikipedia. I would agree that adding chinese and Vietnamese names for every time the islands are mentioned makes the article longer than neccessary. I did that because there is one guy who only added chinese names, and it was also very nice of him to ask me to add the Vietnamese names. We can eliminate those chinese and Vietnamese names, only use English names outside of the table, which means the table with English, chinese, Vietnamese names should be kept. I also notice that the English names you got from CIA map, some of which are originated from Vietnamese names, some are from Chinese names. Finally, the neutrality of wikipedia cannot ignore the fact that China seized the Paracels from Vietnam in 1974, which you may have heard of that. Any dispute is just a tactic used to justify China's claim after everything is in their hands. Regards! Trananh1980 ( talk) 08:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi, David s graff. Question about this edit: by "20,000 viewers" do you mean the number of people attending her trial or viewing her execution or what? I think that should probably be clarified, since "viewers" usually means something rather different in the present day. Rivertorch ( talk) 10:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clear, 20,000 people came to the execution, pretty remarkable since, at the time, the population of Reading was about 3,000. See e.g. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jIkxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jKYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4103%2C9915630 David s graff ( talk) 19:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
i was reading thru the spin article, and i found an unfortunate confusion that you appear to have added in the article.
i note also on your talk page that you claim to be a physicist -- tho it's difficult for me to believe how you might have made such a fundamental error if that claim were true -- and i understand that those who refer to themselves as "wikipaedians" take poorly to others' edits of their additions, so upon discovering who had made the error, i thought to preempt any attempt to re-insert your error.
that quantity known as "spin" is definitely not a spinor.
(in any case, in the abstract and purest sense, even a spinor is a vector as a member of a vector space (a hilbert space) carrying a representation of a covering group of the special orthogonal group. in fact, the vector space that spinors inhabit must represent a DOUBLE cover of SO(3), which is precisely whence spinors get their behaviour of sign reversal upon being subjected to 360-degree spatial rotation: the "double cover" means that there is a 2:1 surjective homomorphism ("2 spinors per vector"), so the first rotation by 360 degrees maps the element of the spinor space into the same elemet of the vector space that the second 360-degree rotation does. for strictly geometric purposes, spinors are not tensors (vectors are tensors of the first rank), so in the geometric picture, spinors are often dissociated from vectors. but in the algebraic picture, they are certainly vectors, which is why we speak of the state vector of a system even when referring to spin-1/2 spin states...tho this is a mathematical digression.)
i'm afraid to tell you that you have completely misread whatever you thought tomonaga was telling you; surely such an eminent theorist would not so easily have led a reasonably informed physicist astray, so perhaps you can understand my scepsis! what a spinor is used for in terms of quantum mechanical spin is to represent the eigenstate of a spin-1/2-carrying quantum state. now, if you were confused by tomonaga's book for the layman, i may not be the right person to distill the concept any more clearly, but i'll try my best: the spinor, while carrying information on the possible results of a spin measurement, is not spin itself -- it merely represents of the spin state of a system (e.g. electron) that has the property of spin of magnitude ħ/2.
spin itself is an observable and therefore represented in the quantum formalism as something called an "hermitian operator" and in fact is a vector! more precisely, it is an axial vector ("pseudovector"), like all angular momenta, and therefore changes sign under parity transformations, but this distinction is rather trivial. the eigenvalues (the spin measurements) that result upon the application of the spin operators to a spin eigenstate are the +1/2 and -1/2 is the value of the spin state, along the axis of measurement, into which the measurement has "collapsed" the wavefunction. in essence, we premultiply a spinor by a spin operator (i.e., a scaled pauli matrix) to represent the physical act of measuring the spin of a spin-1/2 particle.
the formalism looks something like this:
where we have applied the spin-z operator to a random spin state χ, returning the value of the measurement (plus or minus ħ/2) and "collapsing" the state χ into an eigenstate of the spin-z operator, here labelled either spin up (+) or spin-down (-).
i'm not sure if this helps at all. i'm notable for my poor explanations. ._.
the end result is that the spin itself is a vector...an axial vector to be sure, but all angular momenta are axial vectors, so this subtlety should not present additional confusion. however, to call spin itself a "spinor" is an error: it is the spin wavefunction -- the particle's state -- and not the spin itself, which is represented by the spinor.
i hope you will not take this last exhortation with offence; i only mean to improve both wikipaedia and your own contributions here. i'm not sure why you are calling yourself a physicist on here, and while i certainly appreciate your interest in physical theory, it's probably advisable to avoid editing physics pages unless you are entirely certain that your edits are correct! i sincerely do appreciate the obvious interest in even relatively obscure laymen's texts like the tomonaga book, which i had never heard of before. (by the way, you may want to return to the article and remove the reference citation itself. i don't know how to do that.) however, they say about wikipaedia that all the pages are wrong, because experts don't go to the pages in their areas of expertise, and they can't identify errors in others! in fact, it's only by luck that i happened to notice your error this evening; it had been present for over a year!
to ensure that this project maintains an encyclopaedic level of accuracy, it's best to only edit when certain. after all, being interested in physics as you are, i am sure there are times that you rely on this resource for high-quality information: surely you would prefer the information be accurate! no offence meant and sorry to leave such a long message, but i wanted to ensure you knew it was done in good faith; i understand that registered editors can become quite defencive about their contributions being edited away. o.o 72.179.38.56 ( talk) 07:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
I know that the EM field is described by the stress energy tensor, but there is an equivalent description as a 4-vector vector potential. Thats what I meant when I was describing the E&M field as a vector field. But you are right that if we want to play that game with spin, we need to make a space-time description of angular momentum. I guess that that would lead to the Dirac equation and the four gamma matrix version of spin.
Photons do carry angular momentum, and so the E&M field can carry angular momentum, even classically, e.g., as circularly-polarized light. So I think that it is perfectly appropriate to talk about the angular momentum density of an E&M field without having to put it in quotes. I'm not sure that thinking about angular momentum as a bi-vector is really helpful. When studied classically, we think of angular momentum as a derived quantity, as x × p. But I think that the whole point of spin is that angular momentum really is a fundamental quantum phenomenon with its own set of transformations. And of course, Wikipedia is our source for how to find out how angular momentum behaves relativistically, "as an antisymmetric second order tensor" Angular_momentum#Angular_momentum_.28modern_definition.29.
The more I think about this, the more I think I was right with my edit. There are some relations between spin and the classical vector angular momentum. But there are technical defferences which should not really be discussed in detail in the introduction to the spin article. Rather, we should just mention that there are differences, discuss them more fully in the body of the article (which we do) and link to pages and external references that go into more detail for people who want to delve into the differences (which I do with my link to spinor and to Tomonaga's article). Since even non-quantum angular momentum stops behaving like a vector relativistically, I think its sufficient to just warn the reader that they should not accept the vector representation of spin as more than a useful metaphor in some instances, and warn them of possible complexities with links.
I'm totally confused by what you and the IP commentor mean by "Spin Itself". I think we all completely understand how spin transforms under rotation (spin 1/2 by Pauli matrices classically, by gamma matrices relativistically, spin 1 as a Vector, e.g., by standard rotation matrices). I think that has to be sufficient.
Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current
Arbitration Committee election. The
Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia
arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose
site bans,
topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The
arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to
review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on
the voting page. For the Election committee,
MediaWiki message delivery (
talk) 13:47, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello, David s graff. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
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