Rather than putting a line on your main page and commenting , Dan, I added this talk page. If you want to remove it, go ahead. I like what you wrote and have many similar ideas. Here on wikipedia I started Angel, then Dakini, then New Age. The latter has so many revisions(over 150) from people inwardly biased who haven't a clue what New Age means, but decide what was written from an experiential POV must be wrong, or "evangelizing", or biased, or anything else they wished to come up with... a poor excuse for knowing nothing about the subject. Take a look at the 3 talk sections on New Age, and you might see a history of this behavior. Most importantly, Larry Sanger and Jimmy Whales have both emailed me, trying to "lay down the law", or to correct my writing style.
I've noticed many of the prolific authors, who are on here all the time, use a gang mentality. They feel justified in removing content using the wikipedia standards, and track a victim like wolves hunting weaker prey. Once they draw blood, meaning the person here complains, they destroy context, use snide remarks, and eventually Larry jumps in to endorse these predators' ripping-going-for-the-juggler hunting/stalkings. This may seem a little blown out of proportion, but to the victim, she hurts from their bites. Some of these wolves advised me to leave wiki; some said I needed a thicker skin.
There is another reality that cannot be measured with scientific instruments. What is time, other than the ticks on a clock? Time does work for all the rules of science, yet now physicists are beginning to see a higher truth where time stops. They are mystified by 90% of the universe being dark matter, meaning all the laws of nature and science apparently are only 10% of "what-is".
Tacit(silent) knowledge may be mystical, or a deep gnosis, in that a person knows she knows, beyond any doubt. Skeptics always love to descend like flies on rotting meat, once their reality is jeapordized by the Truth, from another POV; and they never admit the source of their Fear is homeostatic complacency. BF
THE LOOBY
Only loobies find excellence in these words. It is thinkable that A is not-A; to reverse this is but to revert to the normal. Yet by forcing the brain to accept propositions of which one set is absurdity, the other truism, a new function of brain is established. Vague and mysterious and all indefinite are the contents of this new consciousness; yet they are somehow vital. by use they become luminous. Unreason becomes Experience. This lifts the leaden-footed soul to the Experience of THAT of which Reason is the blasphemy. But without the Experience these words are the Lies of a Looby. Yet a Looby to thee, and a Booby to me, a Balassius Ruby to GOD, may be!
You are bringing up a great deal of silliness, and I reccomend you take a deep breath and reappraise the tract you are looking to take with your edits on religious articles. You havn't upset me at all, but I must warn you religious artilces attract about as much heat and passion as you are likely to find on the wikipedia, and I wouldn't want you to catch the ugly lack of wikiquette from someone who is less amused. just so you know, the universal life church allows you to become a Christian reverend, it doesn't create new, non-christian faiths. Likewise, the US govt. is particularly stingy when it comes to authorizing new faiths, due to the tax benifits, and their having been burned in the past (scientology anybody?). Anyways, cheers, and thanks for the laughs. Sam Spade 08:52, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yep, folks sure are nutty. I'm glad you find yourself so very funny, that is an atribute to prize in this life. Good luck, and thanks for all the fish. Sam Spade 15:46, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I invite you to add more detail on Leon Kass to his article. There was some ideologue who was sitting on it for a long time, deleting whatever I added, claiming that his academic achievements and "personal relationship" with Kass justified all his edits automatically. I got him to calm down some, but I'd really like to make clear the full range of Kass' views, and you seem to understand them from at least a skeptical perspective.
So, I invite you to add to the Leon Kass article...and if that guy Noesis comes back, let's deal with him together. -- Zaorish 17:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I really appreciate your help. ^_^; I'm only beginning to learn the true stress of such wikiwars.-- Zaorish 23:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
moved from Talk:Leon Kass:
For example, you state "He feels that these now well-accepted practices desensitize society, increasing the likelihood of acceptance of more advanced technologies such as reproductive cloning." Yes, but the thrust of his ethic is that these actions remove an important aspect of who and what we are. Society comes later (as in the babel arguement). To him, our humanity lies in the mystery of our individual origins, encapsulated in sexual reproduction (this links to the nuclear family/women thing of which I am personally dubious). To return: to expose these origins in a petri dish is to take that away: "...[T]here may well be a dehumanizing effect on the scientist himself, and through him, on all of us. The men who are at work on the new beginnings of life are about to subdue one of the most magnificent mysteries, the mystery of birth and renewal. To some extent, the mystery has already been subdued. Those who do in vitro fertalization are in the business of initiating new life. To the exent that they feel that there is nothing unusual or awesome in what they are doing they have already lost the appreciation of mystery, the sense of wonder." (Toward a More Natural Science. 1985. p. 74) This is a powerful image to Kass, himself a former biochemist. The post-enlightnment (Kass is a Rousseau fan, importantly) and modern scientific project, the end of mystery, comes at the expense of our dignity: "We have paid some high prices for the technological conquest of nature, but none perhaps so high as the intelectual and spiritual cost of seeing nature as mere material for our manipulation, exploitation, and transformation. With the powers for biological engineering now gathering, there will be splendid new opportunities for a similar degradation in our view of man. Indeed, we are already witnessing the erosion of our idea of man as something splendid or divine, as a creature with freedom and dignity. And clearly, if we come to see ourselves as meat, then meat we shall become" (As Above, p. 77) This, I think, is the lesson of the Babel story for him. The society that sees the technically maluable physical world as all that there is to existence is the society who loses what is essential to its individuals. When that occurs, can the fragmentation and dissolution of that society help but follow? And isn't this multiplied when deeper notions of human origins are questioned as implied in the test-tube debate? He ends the Babel talk with a warning which I think sums up his skepticism of modernity and is the essential launch-point of his understanding of biomedical ethics, certainly as it pertains to the in vitro debate: "[T]he humanist project of Babel has been making a comeback. Ever since the beginning of the seventeenth century, when men like Bacon and Descartes called mankind to the conquest of nature for the relief of man’s estate, the cosmopolitan dream of the city of man has guided many of the best minds and hearts throughout the world. Science and technology are again in the ascendancy, defying political boundaries en route to a projected Human Empire over nature. God, it seems, forgot about the possibility that a new universal language could emerge, the language of symbolic mathematics, and its offspring, mathematical physics. It is algebra that all men understand without disagreement. It is Cartesian analytic geometry that enables the mind mentally to homogenize the entire world, to turn it into stuff for our manipulations. It is the language of Cartesian mathematics and method that has brought Babel back from oblivion. Whether we think of the heavenly city of the philosophes, or the post-historical age toward which Marxism points, or, more concretely, the imposing building of the United Nations that stands today in America’s first city; whether we look at the world-wide web and its Word Perfect, or the globalized economy, or the biomedical project to re-create human nature without its imperfections; or whether we confront the spread of the post-modern claim that all “truth” is of merely human creation—we see everywhere evidence of the revived Babylonian vision." (Technology and the Humanist Dream, Babel Then and Now. in http://www.reason.com/rb/rb012302.shtml). As I have said, I am definitely a former student and fan. I would make no pretensions to be expert enough in him or this forum to argue with you about what should be presented in it, or how. I don't know what advocacy journalism is, much less whether the author is engaging in it. I guess I am just locked in, clearly. I hope you find this interesting or productive, and not just a rehash of what you already know. If you think this should be talked about elsewhere, fine. If you want me to just go away, I can do that too. Thanks for your attention and sorry if your copywrite issues have been infringed upon. 64.160.117.34 10:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)HB
Oy Vey. You seem to want turn this on a reading of K. from GS, of which I am not familiar, until I read this. I think I understand it conceptually, however, so I will try to respond as best as I can. If you mean by "a map is not territory" that our own narrow perspective limits any human endeavor to capture or understand the essence or true Reality ("Reality" being encapsulated in the linguistic "map" of "territory"), that point is fair enough, but its not a particularily modern idea, and I don't think that K. would necessarily have an issue with certain aspects of this metaphysic. Many, including him, I think, would say that the first 2-4 lines of the book of Genesis are specifically formulated to establish and imply just that. The point is, scientific endeavor, another "map" to you I think, gets caught in the very conundrum that you identify, and it leads to places and definitions of humans that do not come without a price, reguardless of whether they are more "Real" or not. I acknowledge that this pespective comes from a "map" that K. has drawn for himself. I have to go now but I shall return and answer the 9/11 thing later. 69.111.110.138 23:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)HB
OK. To your reading of "modernity": I suppose I should choose my words better, as I don't want to get into a larger discussion of modern thought. I was trying to point out certain trends that K. would call dangerous in some way, though not outright undesirable. The assumptions of modern biological (he is a bio-ethicist, after all) science, for example, are oriented around the principles outlined above. I would point to evolutionary biology (an aspect of modernity too, I hope you would agree), with the theory that natural selection acts upon random mutation alone in DNA as the vehicle through which evolution of species occurs. I would also point to the fruits of that human endeavor, including, but not limited to, the project of the sequencing of the human genome and identification of all human genes (a "cracking the code" if you will), as examples. I recognize that GS would call these "maps" and state that they do not necessarily get to the heart of the matter, or are as incomplete as any other endeavor, but that is beside the point. They inform a certain way of seeing humans, and that viewpoint is dangerous to K.
To your next point: "Al-Qaeda starts from a particular view of human origins, nature and dignity. In their view, our humanity derives from our special creation by Allah, "by whom you demand one of another -your rights-". Both Kass and bin Laden define humanity in ways that seem unrelated to self-consciousness, or even the biological definition. Both seem to favor laws [Important: show me where K. states that U.S. LAW, not Policy, should conform to his vision,
and then show me where he states that such laws should be universalized, as the fundamentalist islamicist vision appears to do] that appeal to their personal views for justification, ignoring other principles. Both of them, therefore, implicitly reject the claim that laws exist solely to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (I called this the basic premise of America.)" Let's look a little closer at "the basic premise of America": "We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT [caps mine], that all MEN are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Perhaps I don't understand what your saying, but it seems to me that Bin Laden and K. have some impressive company. Again: "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which connected them with another, and to assume ... the separate and equal station which the LAWS OF NATURE and of NATURE'S GOD entitle them ..." I don't see self-consciousness or biological definition here, at least not the way post-darwinian biology would define us. Incidentally, I also don't see anything about women. This is not to be infalmmatory, I am trying to make the case that to the extent that K. is similar to OBL, so are the very foundations of our own polity, of whom, incidentally, K. is a member. Your problem seems to be that they reject freedom from the Jeffersonian standard, but that standard was founded via a similar methodology.
Finally on the point of whether K.s conception constitutes an outright rejection of human freedom and an alternate understanding of civics, you may want to take a look at K.'s greatest influence:
http://www.hudson.org/learn/index.cfm?fuseaction=staff_bio&eid=KassAmy.
To your next point: "I want to add one point about the practical social argument that Kass makes. He says science and reason (examination of the natural world) can't supply moral standards. Therefore, he says, society may fall apart without external standards that someone like me would call irrational. But pretty much everyone in the western world claims to agree on the moral goodness of freedom." Yes, freedom is a nice concept, and important. Indeed, essential for K. But the fact that the ugliest deeds of the 20th century flowed out of one of the most free and advanced and sophisticated civil societies (Weimar Republic) of its time keeps Straussians like K. awake at night (Strauss, as you probably know, was a Holocaust escapee, and a Heidigger pupil until the tables were turned). It is from this perspective, I think, that K.'s skepticism has evolved. Simple appeals to the moral goodness of human freedom, unbounded by anything but rationality, can be dangerous and, at times, catastrophis. "Beware of ideas", the old straussian mantra goes.
Next, the Leviticus stuff: "We know what his preferred book of religious stories has to say. See also this passage." It is not befitting of someone of your obvious intellect (this is not intended as a backhanded compliment) to attribute concepts from a biblical passage upon which K. has no commentary, that I know of at least, to K. If K. claims specifically that these are right, or fosters his own interpretation, find it and cite it. Don't just say "this sounds like K. to me!!" The only Leviticus stuff that I can remember revolves around the dietary laws in The Hungry Soul. He is not a Torah or Talmud scholar, and as far as I know he does not publically accept these books as a coherent whole, with equal weight and merit, handed down to Moses on Mt. Sinai, as the Rabbis do. I am willing to be PROVEN wrong on this, but find it in K.s work.
Next: "The map is not the territory". Oh God. Help me understand this will you? The map is not the territory, but the word "territory", is a linguistic symbol (for lack of a better term) intended to depict Reality, and hence another map. Thus, the statement "the map is not the territory" is confounded by the paradox that the thing that map is not is another map which is again, not the territory.
See above for the positive feedback loop, ad infinitum. I need another drink. Free me from this prison.
I am to resume my professional duties soon, and so I will not be able to respond as quickly, but I will respond. You probably are annoyed by now with all of this and would count this as a blessing. I do appreciate you allowing me to be part of this forum and in helping me get back to basics, since I don't get to think this way very often anymore. Thanks again
162.119.232.109
11:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)HB
Was looking at the Aleister Crowley article, and clicked on the link Mr. W.H. that you added and ... it is solely about Shakespeare. Shouldn't the link be simply "Mr. W.H." ? Shenme 06:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi!
Why did You remove my last edits? [1] Nmate ( talk) 07:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I need help, someone keeps putting garbage n me userpage, what can I do? Dnd293 06:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
How much money would you be interested in selling your user page for? $686? Please repond asap on my talk page. Many thanks,
Zesty Prospect
16:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey Dan how ya doing? I just caught your comment on the Plotinus talkpage, hey come on back and we'll discuss it. LoveMonkey 19:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright Mr Dan name calling aside (in occult degrees you might be a Protagoras or Diagoras [4]) yes I'm kinding..... well maybe :>| Anyway do you think that L Ron Hubbard ought to be listed as a gnostic? Just asking. I mean he really just used gnosticism as the underlying cosmology to his whole thetan/gnostic/pneumonic versus Megaman/ Xenu or whatever. I mean isn't this the whole thing behind the book Sex and Rockets AKA Jack Parsons and Sara Northrup? LoveMonkey 04:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I listed two famous sophists. Stated I was kidding around. Oh well. LoveMonkey 00:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Refer to my just posted previous comment. But are they related you bet but is this all complicated and must be peeled like an onion to understand, you bet. That's one analogy you might recognize. LoveMonkey 01:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah but how will I "discover" the most practical way to communicate with you if I don't try. LoveMonkey 01:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure. But Hubbard being a member of Aleister Crowley's Agape lodge would lead one to believe he would have to accept such a label to be accepted? No? Please clarify.
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well the book I mentioned "Sex and Rockets" does precisely that very thing.
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Now please elaborate. How is turning someone against the creator "an attack on biblical literalism" ?
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Lewis Black? Oh your making a joke by quoting a comedian. hahaha. Very funny. Hey maybe we can start working in some
Cheech and Chong!
LoveMonkey
01:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure. As we can find reasons for the ugliest and most evil of things precipitated by mankind. But as the old saying goes "reason alone has never sufficed".
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Surely you can't think I was trying to justify Co$ or anything else.
Dan
03:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I was trying to see how much research you have done. I mean should one not read both sides of an argument before claiming that they have an understanding of things? As for COS most of it's "knowledge" is a rework of AC's writings that Hubbard stole. This is from the sources I mentioned. But why would someone so into AC not know about all this? Or not want to talk about it? I mean if you had read though my comments on the
Plotinus talkpage you would have seen this mention of AC
[6].
LoveMonkey
01:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This all leads me to my point. I would like to post the creed as it is written in Apocalypse Culture. You know as a declaration of what AC and his organization believed. LoveMonkey 03:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah so now you have an understanding of the mechanations of martrydom! Lets pray that no one would wish such cowardly repression on anyone! So what the decision are you open to creating the article with the creed or not? As for naughty links well I have a few. LoveMonkey 19:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Apocalypse does not sound like a scholarly source on AC. Certainly the author does not have the authority to define my religion for me, since nobody alive does. I'm still not sure where you want to post this "creed", but please be clear on who actually said it, where or in what context they said it, and what we can prove objectively. (If you want to know what standard I have in mind, see non-Thelemite Lawrence Sutin's biography and his quotes from the private diaries of Aleister Crowley.) Remember the difference between Thelema, the A∴A∴, the Caliphate O.T.O., the various predecessors of the Caliphate and any other groups you might have in mind.
And I'm not particularly interested in Hubbard myself, but I know that he likely stole from Crowley, Alfred Korzybski and a few others. Dan 18:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Pro and con for what? Why do you think the issue (which you still haven't named) has only two sides? That quote comes from Crowley's "Liber OZ". It doesn't strictly qualify as an oath or a creed, for the religion in general. The book purports to lay out the rights of humanity. And note that "User:999" or
User:Ekajati, had he not provoked the Wiki Illuminati into banning him, would object strongly if you used any work of Crowley's to define Thelema. Apparently followers of our religion do not even agree on who founded it.
The Gnostic Mass, meanwhile, does not contain that line you quoted. Nor does that specific Mass ritual seem central to any group except the despised Caliphate OTO and their church, although more people would agree with various lines -- even Gardnerian Wicca adapted several parts. (You can almost think of it as a branch of Thelema for people who think Crowley was a dick.) I obviously can't tell an outsider what the feared Pythagorean
Gnostic assassins believe. I can tell you that the crimes you've uncovered are only the tip of the iceberg. Our ranks include not just the organized Church of Sophistry but everyone who has ever disagreed with you. Ewige Blumenkraft!
Dan
01:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd explain in more concrete detail what you want to do. If you want to create an article, you should at least have a title and evidence of Notability in mind. Don't post the whole article here, but if you already know what you want to do you could create a subpage called User:LoveMonkey/(article title) using the instructions and post the article you want to create there for people to read.
What I say next may miss the point or address a strawman, because I still don't have a clear picture of what you want to do or argue. But Crowley made some strong objections to the occult work of Parsons and Hubbard. This seems like a perfect example of the categorization law I mentioned before. An outsider might see similarities between all three men and lump them together in one category. But Crowley saw what he considered vital differences. Neoplatonists and Gnostics might seem 'essentially' the same to Justinian I and others, but Plotinus saw what he considered vital differences. (See also Shi'ite and Sunni.) Reason and science can't tell us whether to view these differences as 'essential' or 'accidental' -- we could prove either name using the right assumptions. Now, it sounds like you want to draw my attention to critics of Aleister Crowley or occultism. Such critics tend to lump together everyone outside of their church because they don't care about the differences. (For example, they tend to lump Aleister Crowley and Satanists together, which seems to annoy some but not all Satanists.) And this may explain why a lot of what these critics say, like a false claim I saw about The Book of the Law on that website you linked, contradict the most obvious and easily checked facts. Do you know how absurd it seems when someone makes mistakes like that and then accuses me of ignoring bad arguments I've seen a million times before? Do you know how hard the occult community laughs when we find pages like the one you linked as proof of Gnosticism? Dan 21:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Then I suggest you take a look at this in connection with this shorter pamphlet about entering the Abyss. For now, I'll quote you an attempt by this Thelemite source to address the issue:
It has long been customary to refer to this sentence as "The Oath of the Abyss": I will interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul. -Book 4, CHAPTER VI, THE WAND.
Strictly speaking, that is not correct. Crowley mentions "The Oath of the Abyss" in several places, but he does not enlarge upon the content. The statement given above in italics is actually the obligation of a Magister Templi, already beyond the Abyss. Crowley does advise that "even the beginner may attempt this practice with advantage." -- Book 4, CHAPTER VII, THE CUP. However, there is a bit of a rub... In the same place, Crowley says: "The Master of the Temple asks, on seeing a slug: 'What is the purpose of this message from the Unseen? How shall I interpret this Word of God Most High?' The Magus thinks: 'How shall I use this slug?' And in this course he must persist." Either approach can lead to obsession through excess, in the mind of the unprepared. This practice is discussed in several places in Equinox Vol. I, No. 1.
The actual Oath of the Abyss is a total and irrevocable commitment to assay the passage -- useless to attempt before the time is right, unavoidable at the moment the Exempt Adept is ready. Even so, the obligation of a Magister Templi is recommended as an experiment for the beginner and must necessarily entail some relevance to the Abyss... Dan 06:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey is this response a work in progress? You know like some of my postings or is this above your response? LoveMonkey 15:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Alright so that means that I should post the Oath First? LoveMonkey 12:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
OK I will run down the actual Oath and post it here. I have to get my copy of Apocalypse Culture back from loaning it out. Thanks LoveMonkey 22:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey Dan check this out!!!!!!!!!! [8] WOW conspiracy aplenty! LoveMonkey 14:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-6494.1956.tb01295.x This is what I got for evedence of leary acclaim. I'm in a major hurry right now, so more later I guess.
I have removed your edit. LoveMonkey 00:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello Mr Dan could you help source the edits that I removed [9]? So that they could possibly be added back into the article. LoveMonkey 15:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello I hope all is well. I am really trying hard to wind down and leave wiki. I had not heard from you in a while and thought I would say hello. Being in the season of Halloween and all I thought you might enjoy this (though subjectively) link. Cyprian. LoveMonkey 13:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
PS could you help me with the second part of this article- ( Messalians) which seems to be a bunch up made up nonsense. LoveMonkey 18:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Thelema. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. 80.222.124.181 ( talk) 21:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
To a user conduct RfC rather moving forward with dispute resolution processes such was WP:THIRD and an article RfC tells me you are just trying to intimidate and have no sincere interest in discussion or dispute resolution. I've filed a complaint on WP:COIN. You now need to reveal whether you are a member of Ordo Templi Orientis. Are you? 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 19:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Please note that a series of edits with no intervening edits are considered ONE EDIT for the purposes of 3RR. My edits are done one by one so that each can be explained in an edit comment, something which you have not done. 200.80.32.170 ( talk) 14:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey Dan,
Since you made multiple changes in a single edit with a misleading edit comment (it did not mention making deletions of text), I have no idea of the reasons for your various edits. I simply restored material deleted without explanation, and fixed changes that you made to cited text which made it no longer correspond with what the source stated. Surely you know better than to do either of these things! You haven't even tried to address the individual reasons I gave for each edit. Why not? Come on, let's follow the Wikipedia process. Or are you trying to own the article rather than following the normal dispute resolution process of discussion, collaboration and compromise? I've listed each change and the reason for it at Talk:Thelema#Invitation for Dan to discuss edit by edit. Let's talk about the content, okay? 88.134.148.3 ( talk) 16:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I now have a username. I'd hate for you to continue to waste your time trying to prevent me from contributing to Thelema instead of discussing points, so I decided to stop giving you IP addresses to focus on. Ready to talk seriously yet? Will in China ( talk) 18:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I have responded to all of your points now at Talk:Thelema and await further discussion. Will in China ( talk) 19:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm looking for input from recent Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies users regarding the above template. your input on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject on open proxies would be appreciated, if you have any preferences regarding the TOR link in the template. SkierRMH ( talk) 04:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
He was a founder of Thelemapedia who spent his time importing the articles he wrote there to here, or the other way round. Some of them are ok subjects, others aren't notable. There's a whole category of his socks, as well as Mattisse he also ensured User:Coldmachine was falsely blocked as a sock (luckily he got himself unblocked) probably among others. He's still at it to this day on English Qaballa and related articles. A few IPs of his were blocked only the other day. He is talented in his own way, he just perhaps thinks these subjects are more notable than the outside world does. When it comes to deleting his articles, I take the pragmatic approach of it depending whether we should have articles on those subjects or not. If the subjects are notable, other users have probably contributed to them a lot too, so it wouldn't seem right to delete the whole article. There are some though where only he has made major edits to them, I think. Thanks for the tip, I was wanting to say hi to you anyway as you were editing on the EQ article. I used to study Thelema, that's a while back now though, it's a bit intellectual or something for me. Nowadays I'm a theistic Satanist with a focus on healing/energywork. Do you have a favourite ritual?:) Sticky Parkin 02:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, and I tend to agree about deletion. That was him, eh? Does this mean Thelema in China was not Ekajati, or is that just what they want us to think? :)
I'm afraid I can't help you much with healing. I do feel glad to see another occultist Classics major, though technically they didn't call it Classics in my case. Dan ( talk) 07:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Checkuser? Er, do you see that conversation about Tor (anonymity network) up there, after the IP addresses expressing oddly detailed knowledge of Wikipedia policies and accusing me of belonging to the Caliphate OTO?
In the most general sense, I might have to go with the Star Ruby. Dan ( talk) 04:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
That was your third full revert in 24 hours. Will in China ( talk) 18:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
That was your third full revert in 24 hours. Try collaborating more. Will in China ( talk) 18:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
That's 3 full reverts for you again, Dan. Does the expression Pot, kettle, black mean anything to you? Will in China ( talk) 19:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I may have technically kept up with you, but I used a different approach each time. Are you going to allow me to progess the article, or do you thing you own it? Will in China ( talk) 19:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Thelema. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Jezhotwells ( talk) 23:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me skool ya some chum. What I just did on Thelema is called an "edit", not a "revert". It doesn't correspond to any previous version of the article, even in part. It's not even a partial revert. So go ahead and report it. I'll be laughin' my head off b/c they will probably block you if you do! Will in China ( talk) 04:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Could you possibly make or enable an email addy Wikipedians can use for you? If you don't want to use a preexisting one you can make a free hotmail, gmail etc. Then in your 'preferences', to the top right of the screen, enable email. It allows for discussions which might annoy other talk page readers otherwise.:) Sticky Parkin 11:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it now NPOV? Let me know what you think on the talk page. Sticky Parkin 22:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
On the edit classifying Crowley's books, I'd changed the class of The Book of Lies to A from C, and you reverted it. Do his books have 'official' classifications? Crowley considered the book one of his major works, but I don't know if that's how the things are rated. Aleister Wilson Aleister Wilson ( talk) 23:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC) 17 May 2009
Why do you keep insisting on the "cultural references" title? You cite articles that have no relevance that I can see. What's the deal? Mintrick ( talk) 13:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I am currently trying to help the editors in the Falun Gong ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) topic area move away from POV pushing and personal commentary. (Please note: Talk:Falun Gong#Topic area review.) You are an editor that I believe can help facilitate this change. I am looking for some uninvolved people with experience and savvy to become involved in the editorial process. A review of the article and associated discussion, in a style similar to a good article review or broad RfC response, would be a good first step and very helpful. However, some leadership in discussion and editing as a whole would be invaluable and sincerely appreciated. This can cover a very broad range including (but not limited to) identifying article flaws, keeping conversation focused on content, reporting disruptive editors, making proposed compromises, boldly correcting errors, and so forth. If you are willing to help out, please look things over and provide your feedback on the Falun Gong talk page. Essentially, we need some experienced editors to put things on track. Any assistance in this regard is gratefully welcomed. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 09:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Please feel free. Only when you've got a minute.-- Asdfg 12345 05:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings again Dan. If you have a few minutes could you take a look at Boleskine House. I see you've never edited it, and it had a previous going over by the 999WillinChinaetc. collection, so in a few minutes you may be able to expand or fix it. Or, maybe it's perfect as is. Thanks. Aleister Wilson ( talk) 11:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Just to see what it looked like I expanded the photo on the Crowley page from 200 pixels to 250. Please take a look and see if it works or what other size would be best. pleasing to the reader when they open the page. I worked on Boleskine a bit more, and talked page an editor of Foyles to see if the Village was expanded to include the home, as their page implies. Aleister Wilson ( talk) 16:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of items. An added external link at Boleskine House links to a google movie on the subject. Should be a fun watch. And I've been working on both editing and linking Sex magick, another page you haven't worked on and it would be nice to have your imput. With linking the article to others, mainly through See also lists, have got the view hits up from 350 or so to over 2,000 a day, and aiming higher. Working on it because on the discussion page a couple of editors are discussing deleting it, and I figured go the other way and expand it to a very concise but large article on an important topic. Thanks again, standard close, Aleister Wilson ( talk) 17:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I mentioned the e issue at Talk:The Book of the Law; the accent seems unwarranted and confusing, contrary to popular and scholarly usage. I should probably make sure the person who added it notices, since I feel too lazy to revert it all myself. And I see the AC article has some frankly odd additions now. Dan ( talk) 06:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
That is the question that is repeated again here: Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong#Requesting Move. Since you are not an involved editor, would it be possible for you to provide an input? Thank you in advance for your time! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 17:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I know lol. Don't have it in me nowadays as much (migrated to other sites) but I'll pop in now and again. Sticky Parkin 21:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I found your old user and user talk pages while checking out some old edits. I have history merged them, so that all edits are in one place. Hope you don't mind. Graham 87 09:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, you added Reference 8 at 25 May 2007 after this conversation. Can you explain me what do you meant with this reference? mabdul 12:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
And where are you? The calls go out over the hills (and Dale). There is a recent attempt to remove many of the Crowley pics. Please come and join in. The main A. Crowley page is also going fairly unwatched, although I haven't taken a close look at its quality lately. Hope all is well, and happiness reigns etc. etc. Aleister Wilson 9:50 27 February 2013 (UTC)
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08:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Dear Dan~enwiki,
I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more.
Best regards, Urhixidur ( talk) 19:51, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Rather than putting a line on your main page and commenting , Dan, I added this talk page. If you want to remove it, go ahead. I like what you wrote and have many similar ideas. Here on wikipedia I started Angel, then Dakini, then New Age. The latter has so many revisions(over 150) from people inwardly biased who haven't a clue what New Age means, but decide what was written from an experiential POV must be wrong, or "evangelizing", or biased, or anything else they wished to come up with... a poor excuse for knowing nothing about the subject. Take a look at the 3 talk sections on New Age, and you might see a history of this behavior. Most importantly, Larry Sanger and Jimmy Whales have both emailed me, trying to "lay down the law", or to correct my writing style.
I've noticed many of the prolific authors, who are on here all the time, use a gang mentality. They feel justified in removing content using the wikipedia standards, and track a victim like wolves hunting weaker prey. Once they draw blood, meaning the person here complains, they destroy context, use snide remarks, and eventually Larry jumps in to endorse these predators' ripping-going-for-the-juggler hunting/stalkings. This may seem a little blown out of proportion, but to the victim, she hurts from their bites. Some of these wolves advised me to leave wiki; some said I needed a thicker skin.
There is another reality that cannot be measured with scientific instruments. What is time, other than the ticks on a clock? Time does work for all the rules of science, yet now physicists are beginning to see a higher truth where time stops. They are mystified by 90% of the universe being dark matter, meaning all the laws of nature and science apparently are only 10% of "what-is".
Tacit(silent) knowledge may be mystical, or a deep gnosis, in that a person knows she knows, beyond any doubt. Skeptics always love to descend like flies on rotting meat, once their reality is jeapordized by the Truth, from another POV; and they never admit the source of their Fear is homeostatic complacency. BF
THE LOOBY
Only loobies find excellence in these words. It is thinkable that A is not-A; to reverse this is but to revert to the normal. Yet by forcing the brain to accept propositions of which one set is absurdity, the other truism, a new function of brain is established. Vague and mysterious and all indefinite are the contents of this new consciousness; yet they are somehow vital. by use they become luminous. Unreason becomes Experience. This lifts the leaden-footed soul to the Experience of THAT of which Reason is the blasphemy. But without the Experience these words are the Lies of a Looby. Yet a Looby to thee, and a Booby to me, a Balassius Ruby to GOD, may be!
You are bringing up a great deal of silliness, and I reccomend you take a deep breath and reappraise the tract you are looking to take with your edits on religious articles. You havn't upset me at all, but I must warn you religious artilces attract about as much heat and passion as you are likely to find on the wikipedia, and I wouldn't want you to catch the ugly lack of wikiquette from someone who is less amused. just so you know, the universal life church allows you to become a Christian reverend, it doesn't create new, non-christian faiths. Likewise, the US govt. is particularly stingy when it comes to authorizing new faiths, due to the tax benifits, and their having been burned in the past (scientology anybody?). Anyways, cheers, and thanks for the laughs. Sam Spade 08:52, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Yep, folks sure are nutty. I'm glad you find yourself so very funny, that is an atribute to prize in this life. Good luck, and thanks for all the fish. Sam Spade 15:46, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Dan, I invite you to add more detail on Leon Kass to his article. There was some ideologue who was sitting on it for a long time, deleting whatever I added, claiming that his academic achievements and "personal relationship" with Kass justified all his edits automatically. I got him to calm down some, but I'd really like to make clear the full range of Kass' views, and you seem to understand them from at least a skeptical perspective.
So, I invite you to add to the Leon Kass article...and if that guy Noesis comes back, let's deal with him together. -- Zaorish 17:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I really appreciate your help. ^_^; I'm only beginning to learn the true stress of such wikiwars.-- Zaorish 23:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
moved from Talk:Leon Kass:
For example, you state "He feels that these now well-accepted practices desensitize society, increasing the likelihood of acceptance of more advanced technologies such as reproductive cloning." Yes, but the thrust of his ethic is that these actions remove an important aspect of who and what we are. Society comes later (as in the babel arguement). To him, our humanity lies in the mystery of our individual origins, encapsulated in sexual reproduction (this links to the nuclear family/women thing of which I am personally dubious). To return: to expose these origins in a petri dish is to take that away: "...[T]here may well be a dehumanizing effect on the scientist himself, and through him, on all of us. The men who are at work on the new beginnings of life are about to subdue one of the most magnificent mysteries, the mystery of birth and renewal. To some extent, the mystery has already been subdued. Those who do in vitro fertalization are in the business of initiating new life. To the exent that they feel that there is nothing unusual or awesome in what they are doing they have already lost the appreciation of mystery, the sense of wonder." (Toward a More Natural Science. 1985. p. 74) This is a powerful image to Kass, himself a former biochemist. The post-enlightnment (Kass is a Rousseau fan, importantly) and modern scientific project, the end of mystery, comes at the expense of our dignity: "We have paid some high prices for the technological conquest of nature, but none perhaps so high as the intelectual and spiritual cost of seeing nature as mere material for our manipulation, exploitation, and transformation. With the powers for biological engineering now gathering, there will be splendid new opportunities for a similar degradation in our view of man. Indeed, we are already witnessing the erosion of our idea of man as something splendid or divine, as a creature with freedom and dignity. And clearly, if we come to see ourselves as meat, then meat we shall become" (As Above, p. 77) This, I think, is the lesson of the Babel story for him. The society that sees the technically maluable physical world as all that there is to existence is the society who loses what is essential to its individuals. When that occurs, can the fragmentation and dissolution of that society help but follow? And isn't this multiplied when deeper notions of human origins are questioned as implied in the test-tube debate? He ends the Babel talk with a warning which I think sums up his skepticism of modernity and is the essential launch-point of his understanding of biomedical ethics, certainly as it pertains to the in vitro debate: "[T]he humanist project of Babel has been making a comeback. Ever since the beginning of the seventeenth century, when men like Bacon and Descartes called mankind to the conquest of nature for the relief of man’s estate, the cosmopolitan dream of the city of man has guided many of the best minds and hearts throughout the world. Science and technology are again in the ascendancy, defying political boundaries en route to a projected Human Empire over nature. God, it seems, forgot about the possibility that a new universal language could emerge, the language of symbolic mathematics, and its offspring, mathematical physics. It is algebra that all men understand without disagreement. It is Cartesian analytic geometry that enables the mind mentally to homogenize the entire world, to turn it into stuff for our manipulations. It is the language of Cartesian mathematics and method that has brought Babel back from oblivion. Whether we think of the heavenly city of the philosophes, or the post-historical age toward which Marxism points, or, more concretely, the imposing building of the United Nations that stands today in America’s first city; whether we look at the world-wide web and its Word Perfect, or the globalized economy, or the biomedical project to re-create human nature without its imperfections; or whether we confront the spread of the post-modern claim that all “truth” is of merely human creation—we see everywhere evidence of the revived Babylonian vision." (Technology and the Humanist Dream, Babel Then and Now. in http://www.reason.com/rb/rb012302.shtml). As I have said, I am definitely a former student and fan. I would make no pretensions to be expert enough in him or this forum to argue with you about what should be presented in it, or how. I don't know what advocacy journalism is, much less whether the author is engaging in it. I guess I am just locked in, clearly. I hope you find this interesting or productive, and not just a rehash of what you already know. If you think this should be talked about elsewhere, fine. If you want me to just go away, I can do that too. Thanks for your attention and sorry if your copywrite issues have been infringed upon. 64.160.117.34 10:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)HB
Oy Vey. You seem to want turn this on a reading of K. from GS, of which I am not familiar, until I read this. I think I understand it conceptually, however, so I will try to respond as best as I can. If you mean by "a map is not territory" that our own narrow perspective limits any human endeavor to capture or understand the essence or true Reality ("Reality" being encapsulated in the linguistic "map" of "territory"), that point is fair enough, but its not a particularily modern idea, and I don't think that K. would necessarily have an issue with certain aspects of this metaphysic. Many, including him, I think, would say that the first 2-4 lines of the book of Genesis are specifically formulated to establish and imply just that. The point is, scientific endeavor, another "map" to you I think, gets caught in the very conundrum that you identify, and it leads to places and definitions of humans that do not come without a price, reguardless of whether they are more "Real" or not. I acknowledge that this pespective comes from a "map" that K. has drawn for himself. I have to go now but I shall return and answer the 9/11 thing later. 69.111.110.138 23:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)HB
OK. To your reading of "modernity": I suppose I should choose my words better, as I don't want to get into a larger discussion of modern thought. I was trying to point out certain trends that K. would call dangerous in some way, though not outright undesirable. The assumptions of modern biological (he is a bio-ethicist, after all) science, for example, are oriented around the principles outlined above. I would point to evolutionary biology (an aspect of modernity too, I hope you would agree), with the theory that natural selection acts upon random mutation alone in DNA as the vehicle through which evolution of species occurs. I would also point to the fruits of that human endeavor, including, but not limited to, the project of the sequencing of the human genome and identification of all human genes (a "cracking the code" if you will), as examples. I recognize that GS would call these "maps" and state that they do not necessarily get to the heart of the matter, or are as incomplete as any other endeavor, but that is beside the point. They inform a certain way of seeing humans, and that viewpoint is dangerous to K.
To your next point: "Al-Qaeda starts from a particular view of human origins, nature and dignity. In their view, our humanity derives from our special creation by Allah, "by whom you demand one of another -your rights-". Both Kass and bin Laden define humanity in ways that seem unrelated to self-consciousness, or even the biological definition. Both seem to favor laws [Important: show me where K. states that U.S. LAW, not Policy, should conform to his vision,
and then show me where he states that such laws should be universalized, as the fundamentalist islamicist vision appears to do] that appeal to their personal views for justification, ignoring other principles. Both of them, therefore, implicitly reject the claim that laws exist solely to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. (I called this the basic premise of America.)" Let's look a little closer at "the basic premise of America": "We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT [caps mine], that all MEN are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Perhaps I don't understand what your saying, but it seems to me that Bin Laden and K. have some impressive company. Again: "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which connected them with another, and to assume ... the separate and equal station which the LAWS OF NATURE and of NATURE'S GOD entitle them ..." I don't see self-consciousness or biological definition here, at least not the way post-darwinian biology would define us. Incidentally, I also don't see anything about women. This is not to be infalmmatory, I am trying to make the case that to the extent that K. is similar to OBL, so are the very foundations of our own polity, of whom, incidentally, K. is a member. Your problem seems to be that they reject freedom from the Jeffersonian standard, but that standard was founded via a similar methodology.
Finally on the point of whether K.s conception constitutes an outright rejection of human freedom and an alternate understanding of civics, you may want to take a look at K.'s greatest influence:
http://www.hudson.org/learn/index.cfm?fuseaction=staff_bio&eid=KassAmy.
To your next point: "I want to add one point about the practical social argument that Kass makes. He says science and reason (examination of the natural world) can't supply moral standards. Therefore, he says, society may fall apart without external standards that someone like me would call irrational. But pretty much everyone in the western world claims to agree on the moral goodness of freedom." Yes, freedom is a nice concept, and important. Indeed, essential for K. But the fact that the ugliest deeds of the 20th century flowed out of one of the most free and advanced and sophisticated civil societies (Weimar Republic) of its time keeps Straussians like K. awake at night (Strauss, as you probably know, was a Holocaust escapee, and a Heidigger pupil until the tables were turned). It is from this perspective, I think, that K.'s skepticism has evolved. Simple appeals to the moral goodness of human freedom, unbounded by anything but rationality, can be dangerous and, at times, catastrophis. "Beware of ideas", the old straussian mantra goes.
Next, the Leviticus stuff: "We know what his preferred book of religious stories has to say. See also this passage." It is not befitting of someone of your obvious intellect (this is not intended as a backhanded compliment) to attribute concepts from a biblical passage upon which K. has no commentary, that I know of at least, to K. If K. claims specifically that these are right, or fosters his own interpretation, find it and cite it. Don't just say "this sounds like K. to me!!" The only Leviticus stuff that I can remember revolves around the dietary laws in The Hungry Soul. He is not a Torah or Talmud scholar, and as far as I know he does not publically accept these books as a coherent whole, with equal weight and merit, handed down to Moses on Mt. Sinai, as the Rabbis do. I am willing to be PROVEN wrong on this, but find it in K.s work.
Next: "The map is not the territory". Oh God. Help me understand this will you? The map is not the territory, but the word "territory", is a linguistic symbol (for lack of a better term) intended to depict Reality, and hence another map. Thus, the statement "the map is not the territory" is confounded by the paradox that the thing that map is not is another map which is again, not the territory.
See above for the positive feedback loop, ad infinitum. I need another drink. Free me from this prison.
I am to resume my professional duties soon, and so I will not be able to respond as quickly, but I will respond. You probably are annoyed by now with all of this and would count this as a blessing. I do appreciate you allowing me to be part of this forum and in helping me get back to basics, since I don't get to think this way very often anymore. Thanks again
162.119.232.109
11:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)HB
Was looking at the Aleister Crowley article, and clicked on the link Mr. W.H. that you added and ... it is solely about Shakespeare. Shouldn't the link be simply "Mr. W.H." ? Shenme 06:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi!
Why did You remove my last edits? [1] Nmate ( talk) 07:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I need help, someone keeps putting garbage n me userpage, what can I do? Dnd293 06:16, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
How much money would you be interested in selling your user page for? $686? Please repond asap on my talk page. Many thanks,
Zesty Prospect
16:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey Dan how ya doing? I just caught your comment on the Plotinus talkpage, hey come on back and we'll discuss it. LoveMonkey 19:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright Mr Dan name calling aside (in occult degrees you might be a Protagoras or Diagoras [4]) yes I'm kinding..... well maybe :>| Anyway do you think that L Ron Hubbard ought to be listed as a gnostic? Just asking. I mean he really just used gnosticism as the underlying cosmology to his whole thetan/gnostic/pneumonic versus Megaman/ Xenu or whatever. I mean isn't this the whole thing behind the book Sex and Rockets AKA Jack Parsons and Sara Northrup? LoveMonkey 04:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I listed two famous sophists. Stated I was kidding around. Oh well. LoveMonkey 00:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Refer to my just posted previous comment. But are they related you bet but is this all complicated and must be peeled like an onion to understand, you bet. That's one analogy you might recognize. LoveMonkey 01:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah but how will I "discover" the most practical way to communicate with you if I don't try. LoveMonkey 01:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure. But Hubbard being a member of Aleister Crowley's Agape lodge would lead one to believe he would have to accept such a label to be accepted? No? Please clarify.
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well the book I mentioned "Sex and Rockets" does precisely that very thing.
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Now please elaborate. How is turning someone against the creator "an attack on biblical literalism" ?
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Lewis Black? Oh your making a joke by quoting a comedian. hahaha. Very funny. Hey maybe we can start working in some
Cheech and Chong!
LoveMonkey
01:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure. As we can find reasons for the ugliest and most evil of things precipitated by mankind. But as the old saying goes "reason alone has never sufficed".
LoveMonkey
01:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Surely you can't think I was trying to justify Co$ or anything else.
Dan
03:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I was trying to see how much research you have done. I mean should one not read both sides of an argument before claiming that they have an understanding of things? As for COS most of it's "knowledge" is a rework of AC's writings that Hubbard stole. This is from the sources I mentioned. But why would someone so into AC not know about all this? Or not want to talk about it? I mean if you had read though my comments on the
Plotinus talkpage you would have seen this mention of AC
[6].
LoveMonkey
01:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
This all leads me to my point. I would like to post the creed as it is written in Apocalypse Culture. You know as a declaration of what AC and his organization believed. LoveMonkey 03:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah so now you have an understanding of the mechanations of martrydom! Lets pray that no one would wish such cowardly repression on anyone! So what the decision are you open to creating the article with the creed or not? As for naughty links well I have a few. LoveMonkey 19:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Apocalypse does not sound like a scholarly source on AC. Certainly the author does not have the authority to define my religion for me, since nobody alive does. I'm still not sure where you want to post this "creed", but please be clear on who actually said it, where or in what context they said it, and what we can prove objectively. (If you want to know what standard I have in mind, see non-Thelemite Lawrence Sutin's biography and his quotes from the private diaries of Aleister Crowley.) Remember the difference between Thelema, the A∴A∴, the Caliphate O.T.O., the various predecessors of the Caliphate and any other groups you might have in mind.
And I'm not particularly interested in Hubbard myself, but I know that he likely stole from Crowley, Alfred Korzybski and a few others. Dan 18:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Pro and con for what? Why do you think the issue (which you still haven't named) has only two sides? That quote comes from Crowley's "Liber OZ". It doesn't strictly qualify as an oath or a creed, for the religion in general. The book purports to lay out the rights of humanity. And note that "User:999" or
User:Ekajati, had he not provoked the Wiki Illuminati into banning him, would object strongly if you used any work of Crowley's to define Thelema. Apparently followers of our religion do not even agree on who founded it.
The Gnostic Mass, meanwhile, does not contain that line you quoted. Nor does that specific Mass ritual seem central to any group except the despised Caliphate OTO and their church, although more people would agree with various lines -- even Gardnerian Wicca adapted several parts. (You can almost think of it as a branch of Thelema for people who think Crowley was a dick.) I obviously can't tell an outsider what the feared Pythagorean
Gnostic assassins believe. I can tell you that the crimes you've uncovered are only the tip of the iceberg. Our ranks include not just the organized Church of Sophistry but everyone who has ever disagreed with you. Ewige Blumenkraft!
Dan
01:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish you'd explain in more concrete detail what you want to do. If you want to create an article, you should at least have a title and evidence of Notability in mind. Don't post the whole article here, but if you already know what you want to do you could create a subpage called User:LoveMonkey/(article title) using the instructions and post the article you want to create there for people to read.
What I say next may miss the point or address a strawman, because I still don't have a clear picture of what you want to do or argue. But Crowley made some strong objections to the occult work of Parsons and Hubbard. This seems like a perfect example of the categorization law I mentioned before. An outsider might see similarities between all three men and lump them together in one category. But Crowley saw what he considered vital differences. Neoplatonists and Gnostics might seem 'essentially' the same to Justinian I and others, but Plotinus saw what he considered vital differences. (See also Shi'ite and Sunni.) Reason and science can't tell us whether to view these differences as 'essential' or 'accidental' -- we could prove either name using the right assumptions. Now, it sounds like you want to draw my attention to critics of Aleister Crowley or occultism. Such critics tend to lump together everyone outside of their church because they don't care about the differences. (For example, they tend to lump Aleister Crowley and Satanists together, which seems to annoy some but not all Satanists.) And this may explain why a lot of what these critics say, like a false claim I saw about The Book of the Law on that website you linked, contradict the most obvious and easily checked facts. Do you know how absurd it seems when someone makes mistakes like that and then accuses me of ignoring bad arguments I've seen a million times before? Do you know how hard the occult community laughs when we find pages like the one you linked as proof of Gnosticism? Dan 21:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Then I suggest you take a look at this in connection with this shorter pamphlet about entering the Abyss. For now, I'll quote you an attempt by this Thelemite source to address the issue:
It has long been customary to refer to this sentence as "The Oath of the Abyss": I will interpret every phenomenon as a particular dealing of God with my soul. -Book 4, CHAPTER VI, THE WAND.
Strictly speaking, that is not correct. Crowley mentions "The Oath of the Abyss" in several places, but he does not enlarge upon the content. The statement given above in italics is actually the obligation of a Magister Templi, already beyond the Abyss. Crowley does advise that "even the beginner may attempt this practice with advantage." -- Book 4, CHAPTER VII, THE CUP. However, there is a bit of a rub... In the same place, Crowley says: "The Master of the Temple asks, on seeing a slug: 'What is the purpose of this message from the Unseen? How shall I interpret this Word of God Most High?' The Magus thinks: 'How shall I use this slug?' And in this course he must persist." Either approach can lead to obsession through excess, in the mind of the unprepared. This practice is discussed in several places in Equinox Vol. I, No. 1.
The actual Oath of the Abyss is a total and irrevocable commitment to assay the passage -- useless to attempt before the time is right, unavoidable at the moment the Exempt Adept is ready. Even so, the obligation of a Magister Templi is recommended as an experiment for the beginner and must necessarily entail some relevance to the Abyss... Dan 06:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey is this response a work in progress? You know like some of my postings or is this above your response? LoveMonkey 15:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Alright so that means that I should post the Oath First? LoveMonkey 12:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
OK I will run down the actual Oath and post it here. I have to get my copy of Apocalypse Culture back from loaning it out. Thanks LoveMonkey 22:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey Dan check this out!!!!!!!!!! [8] WOW conspiracy aplenty! LoveMonkey 14:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-6494.1956.tb01295.x This is what I got for evedence of leary acclaim. I'm in a major hurry right now, so more later I guess.
I have removed your edit. LoveMonkey 00:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello Mr Dan could you help source the edits that I removed [9]? So that they could possibly be added back into the article. LoveMonkey 15:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello I hope all is well. I am really trying hard to wind down and leave wiki. I had not heard from you in a while and thought I would say hello. Being in the season of Halloween and all I thought you might enjoy this (though subjectively) link. Cyprian. LoveMonkey 13:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
PS could you help me with the second part of this article- ( Messalians) which seems to be a bunch up made up nonsense. LoveMonkey 18:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Wikipedia articles, as you did to Thelema. Doing so violates Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. 80.222.124.181 ( talk) 21:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
To a user conduct RfC rather moving forward with dispute resolution processes such was WP:THIRD and an article RfC tells me you are just trying to intimidate and have no sincere interest in discussion or dispute resolution. I've filed a complaint on WP:COIN. You now need to reveal whether you are a member of Ordo Templi Orientis. Are you? 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 19:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Please note that a series of edits with no intervening edits are considered ONE EDIT for the purposes of 3RR. My edits are done one by one so that each can be explained in an edit comment, something which you have not done. 200.80.32.170 ( talk) 14:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey Dan,
Since you made multiple changes in a single edit with a misleading edit comment (it did not mention making deletions of text), I have no idea of the reasons for your various edits. I simply restored material deleted without explanation, and fixed changes that you made to cited text which made it no longer correspond with what the source stated. Surely you know better than to do either of these things! You haven't even tried to address the individual reasons I gave for each edit. Why not? Come on, let's follow the Wikipedia process. Or are you trying to own the article rather than following the normal dispute resolution process of discussion, collaboration and compromise? I've listed each change and the reason for it at Talk:Thelema#Invitation for Dan to discuss edit by edit. Let's talk about the content, okay? 88.134.148.3 ( talk) 16:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I now have a username. I'd hate for you to continue to waste your time trying to prevent me from contributing to Thelema instead of discussing points, so I decided to stop giving you IP addresses to focus on. Ready to talk seriously yet? Will in China ( talk) 18:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I have responded to all of your points now at Talk:Thelema and await further discussion. Will in China ( talk) 19:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm looking for input from recent Wikipedia:WikiProject on open proxies users regarding the above template. your input on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject on open proxies would be appreciated, if you have any preferences regarding the TOR link in the template. SkierRMH ( talk) 04:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
He was a founder of Thelemapedia who spent his time importing the articles he wrote there to here, or the other way round. Some of them are ok subjects, others aren't notable. There's a whole category of his socks, as well as Mattisse he also ensured User:Coldmachine was falsely blocked as a sock (luckily he got himself unblocked) probably among others. He's still at it to this day on English Qaballa and related articles. A few IPs of his were blocked only the other day. He is talented in his own way, he just perhaps thinks these subjects are more notable than the outside world does. When it comes to deleting his articles, I take the pragmatic approach of it depending whether we should have articles on those subjects or not. If the subjects are notable, other users have probably contributed to them a lot too, so it wouldn't seem right to delete the whole article. There are some though where only he has made major edits to them, I think. Thanks for the tip, I was wanting to say hi to you anyway as you were editing on the EQ article. I used to study Thelema, that's a while back now though, it's a bit intellectual or something for me. Nowadays I'm a theistic Satanist with a focus on healing/energywork. Do you have a favourite ritual?:) Sticky Parkin 02:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, and I tend to agree about deletion. That was him, eh? Does this mean Thelema in China was not Ekajati, or is that just what they want us to think? :)
I'm afraid I can't help you much with healing. I do feel glad to see another occultist Classics major, though technically they didn't call it Classics in my case. Dan ( talk) 07:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Checkuser? Er, do you see that conversation about Tor (anonymity network) up there, after the IP addresses expressing oddly detailed knowledge of Wikipedia policies and accusing me of belonging to the Caliphate OTO?
In the most general sense, I might have to go with the Star Ruby. Dan ( talk) 04:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
That was your third full revert in 24 hours. Will in China ( talk) 18:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
That was your third full revert in 24 hours. Try collaborating more. Will in China ( talk) 18:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
That's 3 full reverts for you again, Dan. Does the expression Pot, kettle, black mean anything to you? Will in China ( talk) 19:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I may have technically kept up with you, but I used a different approach each time. Are you going to allow me to progess the article, or do you thing you own it? Will in China ( talk) 19:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Thelema. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Jezhotwells ( talk) 23:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me skool ya some chum. What I just did on Thelema is called an "edit", not a "revert". It doesn't correspond to any previous version of the article, even in part. It's not even a partial revert. So go ahead and report it. I'll be laughin' my head off b/c they will probably block you if you do! Will in China ( talk) 04:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Could you possibly make or enable an email addy Wikipedians can use for you? If you don't want to use a preexisting one you can make a free hotmail, gmail etc. Then in your 'preferences', to the top right of the screen, enable email. It allows for discussions which might annoy other talk page readers otherwise.:) Sticky Parkin 11:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Is it now NPOV? Let me know what you think on the talk page. Sticky Parkin 22:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
On the edit classifying Crowley's books, I'd changed the class of The Book of Lies to A from C, and you reverted it. Do his books have 'official' classifications? Crowley considered the book one of his major works, but I don't know if that's how the things are rated. Aleister Wilson Aleister Wilson ( talk) 23:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC) 17 May 2009
Why do you keep insisting on the "cultural references" title? You cite articles that have no relevance that I can see. What's the deal? Mintrick ( talk) 13:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I am currently trying to help the editors in the Falun Gong ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) topic area move away from POV pushing and personal commentary. (Please note: Talk:Falun Gong#Topic area review.) You are an editor that I believe can help facilitate this change. I am looking for some uninvolved people with experience and savvy to become involved in the editorial process. A review of the article and associated discussion, in a style similar to a good article review or broad RfC response, would be a good first step and very helpful. However, some leadership in discussion and editing as a whole would be invaluable and sincerely appreciated. This can cover a very broad range including (but not limited to) identifying article flaws, keeping conversation focused on content, reporting disruptive editors, making proposed compromises, boldly correcting errors, and so forth. If you are willing to help out, please look things over and provide your feedback on the Falun Gong talk page. Essentially, we need some experienced editors to put things on track. Any assistance in this regard is gratefully welcomed. Thanks! Vassyana ( talk) 09:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Please feel free. Only when you've got a minute.-- Asdfg 12345 05:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Greetings again Dan. If you have a few minutes could you take a look at Boleskine House. I see you've never edited it, and it had a previous going over by the 999WillinChinaetc. collection, so in a few minutes you may be able to expand or fix it. Or, maybe it's perfect as is. Thanks. Aleister Wilson ( talk) 11:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Just to see what it looked like I expanded the photo on the Crowley page from 200 pixels to 250. Please take a look and see if it works or what other size would be best. pleasing to the reader when they open the page. I worked on Boleskine a bit more, and talked page an editor of Foyles to see if the Village was expanded to include the home, as their page implies. Aleister Wilson ( talk) 16:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
A couple of items. An added external link at Boleskine House links to a google movie on the subject. Should be a fun watch. And I've been working on both editing and linking Sex magick, another page you haven't worked on and it would be nice to have your imput. With linking the article to others, mainly through See also lists, have got the view hits up from 350 or so to over 2,000 a day, and aiming higher. Working on it because on the discussion page a couple of editors are discussing deleting it, and I figured go the other way and expand it to a very concise but large article on an important topic. Thanks again, standard close, Aleister Wilson ( talk) 17:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I mentioned the e issue at Talk:The Book of the Law; the accent seems unwarranted and confusing, contrary to popular and scholarly usage. I should probably make sure the person who added it notices, since I feel too lazy to revert it all myself. And I see the AC article has some frankly odd additions now. Dan ( talk) 06:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
That is the question that is repeated again here: Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong#Requesting Move. Since you are not an involved editor, would it be possible for you to provide an input? Thank you in advance for your time! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 17:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I know lol. Don't have it in me nowadays as much (migrated to other sites) but I'll pop in now and again. Sticky Parkin 21:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I found your old user and user talk pages while checking out some old edits. I have history merged them, so that all edits are in one place. Hope you don't mind. Graham 87 09:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, you added Reference 8 at 25 May 2007 after this conversation. Can you explain me what do you meant with this reference? mabdul 12:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
And where are you? The calls go out over the hills (and Dale). There is a recent attempt to remove many of the Crowley pics. Please come and join in. The main A. Crowley page is also going fairly unwatched, although I haven't taken a close look at its quality lately. Hope all is well, and happiness reigns etc. etc. Aleister Wilson 9:50 27 February 2013 (UTC)
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08:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
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