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Hi, I appreciate your civil and friendly tone on Wikipedia, and your "let's be constructive" attitude. I proposed some cuts to trim Film noir, removing adjectives (e.g. original and seminal...I proposed cutting "original"). The reason I did this is that many Wiki editors overuse adjectives, so usually it is helpful to cut flowery, POV adjectives to a "remarkably gifted solo pianist" or a "widely-acknowledged master of the guitar". In the case of "original and seminal," though, it wasn't just empty verbiage, there was a reason for both, so I agree with you putting them back................Another edit I proposed, which you changed back, was making long paragraphs shorter by dividing them. This is obviously a subjective judgment call in many cases, but I think there are some paragraphs which still could be split in 2. For example, the para:Film noirs embrace a variety of genres, from the gangster film to the police procedural to the so-called social problem picture, and evidence a variety of visual approaches, from meat-and-potatoes Hollywood mainstream to outré. While many critics refer to film noir as a genre itself, others argue that it can be no such thing. Though noir is often associated with an urban setting, for example, many classic noirs take place largely in small towns, suburbia, rural areas, or on the open road, so setting can not be its genre determinant, as with the Western. Similarly, while the private eye and the femme fatale are character types conventionally identified with noir, the majority of film noirs feature neither, so there is no character basis for genre designation as with the gangster film. Nor does it rely on anything as evident as the monstrous or supernatural elements of the horror film, the speculative leaps of the sci-fi film, or the song-and-dance routines of the musical. A more analogous case is that of the screwball comedy, widely accepted by film historians as constituting a "genre"—the screwball is defined not by a fundamental attribute, but by a general disposition and a group of elements, some (but rarely and perhaps never all) of which are found in each of the genre's films. However, because of the diversity of noir (much greater than that of the screwball comedy), certain scholars in the field, such as film historian Thomas Schatz, treat it as not a genre but a "style." Alain Silver, the most widely published American critic specializing in film noir studies, refers to it as a "cycle" and a "phenomenon," even as he argues that it has—like certain genres—a consistent set of visual and thematic codes. Other critics treat film noir as a "mood," a "movement," or a "series," or simply address a chosen set of movies from the "period." There is no consensus on the matter.Just an idea for discussion...P.S. added info on Future Noir Nazamo 15:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, this note is about the aestheticization of violence article, which I tagged with the Essay template. Regardless of whether or not the article should have an Essay tag, I believe that there are still problems with it. This article may be "A content fork"..("usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject"). Perhaps there is a broader article on aesthetics this could go into. Wiki guidelines state that "...content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building and violate one of our most important policies." As well, the article doesn't lay out the different sources of the term "aesthetics of violence" (as in "Professor Jones, the author of six books on aesthetics of violence, defines the term as XXXX. In contrast, Smith defines it as YYYYY.") Nazamo 18:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a great project though I'm not clear why NPR would produce such a volume. Some great composers you list there. There's a good reference book called simply "Contemporary Composers" that has a lot of the Asians listed. I'm very interested in contemporary composers of China, Japan, Korea, etc. too. Good luck with the project. Oh, one more thing that's not well explained here...to sign your "discussion posts," put four tildes after your post and it will magically appear as your "signature." Hope you're on the West Coast, unlike me, where it's 2:30 a.m.! :) Badagnani 06:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't think of that, because since Haydn (and Schubert) I don't think there are that many symphonies with nicknames given by others. There are a lot of gradations: "Sinfonia antartica" (Symphony no. 7) probably bears the title "Sinfonia antartica" and it just happens to the the 7th symphony. I'd say that probably "Sinfonia antartica" should be italicized because it really is the title of the work. Hovhaness' Concerto no. 1 (Arevakal) is another case like this. The Cowell seems to be similar to Symphony no. 9, "From the New World" as to my knowledge it is a numbered symphony and "Madras" is a subtitle giving the impression of the music. There is a way to find out exactly how Cowell titled it: check the Lichtenwanger work list. I think he gives the titles just as they appear (often with misspellings!) Badagnani 19:34, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
NYPL very well might also have the original MS of that symphony, or a microfilm thereof (unless it's at LoC). Badagnani 19:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Didn't know Bacharach studied with Cowell (how did you find that out?) but coincidentally about 2 weeks ago I spoke with Ronald Gould, a percussionist who played in the Madras premiere of Cowell's symphony. He brought a bunch of South Indian drums back to New York with him and in 1959 and 1961, Halim El-Dabh wrote a series of percussion ensemble pieces for them ("Hindi-Yaat no. 1," "Tabla-Dance," and "Tabla-Tahmeel no. 1"). Small world. Badagnani 20:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Nice work. How about mentioning that Bartok wrote to Cowell to ask his permission to use tone clusters in his piano works? I read that somewhere. Badagnani 05:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
The citation was in there for the radio program. I don't think that is well known (I had never heard he had a radio show, or what station it was on), so that's why I added it, for confirmation of this little known fact. There is a way to do footnotes on Wikipedia but it's much easier to just add end notes (like you'll see, for example, throughout Cindy Sheehan. Badagnani 06:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, great stuff you're adding. The Cuban link explains a lot to me, as Cage's works from this period sound VERY Afro-Cuban-influenced, esp. the Constructions for percussion ensemble, Credo in US, and later Three Dances for Two Prepared Pianos. Badagnani 05:50, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd say leave the notes as is; end notes are a pain (though appropriate in the case of the Thomson reference). Fantastic info in the article! I added what I knew, but you came up with way more! It's an enjoyable process, maybe a little addictive... :) Badagnani 01:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've got tapes of "Credo in US" (from Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival) and "Three Dances" (an excellent recording featuring Michael Tilson Thomas as one of the prepared pianists). The "Constructions" are widely available; I think there's a CD on Wergo. Anyone who insists that Cage's compositions aren't that interesting, or that his work is purely conceptual just doesn't know what they are talking about, as hearing these pieces will prove. They have humor, swing, and energy to burn. See if you can find the recordings at NYPL or some other similar library. Badagnani 01:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Just thought I would mention that your hard work is really turning this article into one worthy of the important figure Cowell was, in so many respects. I've seen a lot of Wikipedia editors but I don't recall seeing one as thorough or conscientious as you. Badagnani 06:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, it's a pleasure to have an article on one's watchlist and whenever an edit is made, it checks out as a good one. You'll find, if you stay here long enough, that that often isn't the case. It's especially bad in articles like Math rock, where people think they know a lot and are very opinionated, but their editing skills aren't great; or in political articles. I'll see if I can find that tape of Credo in US. It's a great one. The "Three Dances" LP with Tilson Thomas shouldn't be hard to find, though I'm not sure it's been released on CD. The last of the three dances is jaw-droppingly virtuosic and AFRICAN in sound. Badagnani 07:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
That German list of works has the spelling of "Antinomy" wrong too...someone should probably let them know that. I was just reading today that Cage found "New Musical Resources" and a book by Chavez to be his two most important influences. I had always suspected a Latin American influence in Cage's early works (from the 1930s and '40s) and this helps to confirm this, though the influence sounds more Afro-Cuban (or West African) than Mexican. Badagnani 19:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, you have tagged this image with {{ PD-ineligible}}. However, it is clear that this tag is not proper. It could be used for say, simple chemical structural formulas or geometrical figures, but not for photos! Please read Wikipedia:Copyrights and Wikipedia:Image copyright tags. If no proper license will be added in seven days, the image will be re-tagged with {{ no source}} and deleted. Please ask on my talk page if you have any questions. Renata 18:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
New essay on Cowell by Peter Garland. Looks like explosive stuff. http://otherminds.org/shtml/Garlandoncowell.shtml Badagnani 02:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Your tone towards me is entirely inappropriate, stop talking about me. I find your vague implication that I am a bad wikipedian insulting, rather than helpful, and that is clearly not the way to be a good one. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Comment on the content, not the contributor." Hyacinth 23:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You did a good rewrite of the definition of kid noir (Carol Reed's The Fallen Idol is another example of this and of British film noir), but you wrongly deleted its reference. It's of encyclopedic value to know where terms such as this are coined or explained, and by deleting the source cited, the article now has {{no references}}. -- Jonathan F 08:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Many kudos to you for your re-write of Film Noir. I love the writing, the organization, the thoroughness of it. I would race to nominate it as a FAC, but I know that it would be criticized for not being written in a sufficiently lifeless, "encyclopediac" style. I would bet money that the phrase "rife with original research" would be voiced (meaning you dare to state things that could be construed as opinions without buffering them by saying "critic Joe Shmoe has said... [1]".) In fact, I'll be far from surprised if that phrase turns up on the discussion page eventually. But I hope you ignore it if it does. You've written a damn fine article. -- KarlBunker 18:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
It may be useful for you to know that User:Minun has just been banned for one year by the ArbCom and he is currently blocked from editing anywhere but his user page. I suppose he might respond to you there. — Bunchofgrapes ( talk) 19:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Howdy DCGeist -- I ended up moving my response to: Talk:Charles Willeford ! --nathanbeach 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Just thought you'd like to know. Congratulations on a really well-done article. MLilburne 23:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Looks OK to me - did you fix it? Rich Farmbrough 09:26 29 August 2006 (GMT).
I made the changes to the station charts for several reasons:
First and foremost, look at other television and radio station charts such as Metromedia, Tribune Broadcasting, Hearst-Argyle, Gannett Company, and a few others. The style is consistent throughout. The changes I made keeps the charts in-line with the others.
Second, with regards to radio stations: AM stations do not use an -AM suffix after the call letters. Again, you will notice this in the Metromedia radio station chart. If you want to keep the suffix, though place it inside of parenthesis, then that may be fine. But AM stations should read (for example) "WOR-710" or "WOR (AM)-710" but NOT "WOR-AM-710". (FM stations, especially those birthed from AM stations, usually have the -FM suffix after the call signs.)
I attempted to make similar changes some time ago, but they were quickly reverted. I can say perhaps someone is trying to claim ownership of this article, which is a no-no. But I'll reserve opinion until I get a response from this comment. Rollosmokes 16:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey Geist, I happened to have a look at the appeals court's opinion on the case, and it seems pretty reasonable to infer that the court would have upheld the FCC's decision to yank the WOR-TV and KHJ-TV licenses had the FCC not tied their renewals to the WNAC renewal. It appeared to agree with the FCC that lack of candor of this sort is inconsistent with being a broadcast licensee. Blueboy96 18:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, you removed a quote about C movies because it referred to the Japanese film industry. I agree that the Japanese film industry context should be added, but the quote (in reference to C movies) was hard to find. Yes, there are chat site references to C-movies and anonymous websurfers who toss the term around, but it is hard to find a legit film critic type using the term in print. The whole section on "C" movies in the Wikipedia article becomes "original research" without some sources. If you have better sources, please add them. In the meantime, I think the Japanese example is useful, because it shows readers that this isn't just Original Research... Nazamo 04:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The sound film article looks better and better every day. Keep up the good work! — Walloon 05:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the message. Personally, I like Lost in Translation as a nice low-key movie about a friendship between two people. It probably isn't the best movie ever made, but it's on my top 10 for some reason. The top 10 is a little bit out of date, since then I've seen Touch of Evil...
Anyways, about the template. After seeing your revised version, I must say that I would much prefer it over the old version. It seems much better worded in comparasion. I still don't think it should be deleted because it deals with a very specific problem (tone problems, yes, but a particular kind of tone problem).
On another matter, as you're such an expert on film-noir, maybe you can tell me why Vertigo isn't considered film-noir? I know it's in colour, but does that disqualify it?
Hope my response helps. Green451 00:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you tell me why you deleted my votes at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 12? -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I just looked up "Sound film" before you started and compared it to today. WOW; I'm speechless! (No pun intended.) As you are the primary contributing editor to the article, I was wondered when you were thinking of bringing the article to WP:FAC? Also, I'd very much like to personally invite you to join WikiProject Filmmaking - we could always use more contributors like you! :) Congrats on the work so far, and may I say that I very much look forward to your future work. Girolamo Savonarola 15:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
You mis-understood me. I was talking about no new information that can be added in its current state. For example, an article is not really a stub if it cannot be expanded any further, so I meant that it is B-Class (the highest rating that can be given arbitrarily) because it cannot be expanded any more. The reason I rated it as B-Class is because I cannot rate it higher class (GA, A, or FA) as those are give through official Wikipedia channels (such as Wikipedia:Good article candidates and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates). Also, in the future, do not be alarmed or upset by a class, there are no failing grades and they are just constructive. (That is not meant to discourage you from asking for constructive critism, like WP:PR, or to ask for reasons on the rating.)
I do apologize for my rude edit summary. You see, I had been trying to class the articles and you kept just removing the class, making it appear as unassessed again and again. It was especially concering that you just removed the rating instead of, perhaps, taking it up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films as to tell us that it should be re-classed or by doing it yourself.
I do hope I get a chance to work with you in the future. Cbrown1023 23:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello DCGeist:
I respectively disagree that I introduced factual errors or ungrammatical sentences. The following paragraph illustrates my point.
My text:
One month later, it purchased a controlling interest in the First National production company (which was once more prominent than Warner Bros.). This acquisition included a 135-acre studio/back lot and a large number of movie theaters.
vs.
Your text:
One month later, it purchased a controlling interest in the First National production company (more prominent than Warners itself not long before), which had not only a 135-acre studio and back lot but its own large string of movie theaters. Warners had hit the big-time.
What I did was break a long sentence (your first in the paragraph) into two, easier to read sentences. Does that not read better? By first stating what occured - the "purchase of controlling interest", followed by the result of said purchase - "a 135-acre studio...", I think it does.
I also removed some of the 'slang' or vernacular terms in the paragraph. I know what 'big-time' means, but does the word have a place in Wikipedia? I suggest stating that Warner Bros. (it is Warner BROS., isn't it?) became very successful and perhaps cite a source and/or provide data to support the position that after the subject purchase it "hit the big-time."
I also disagree with your statement about the introduction of factual errors. I didn't change any of the facts. I didn't change names, dates, numbers, personalities, etc. So where are the factual errors?
This paragraph was most heavily revised by me:
The ranking of the Big Five in terms of profitability (closely related to market share) was largely consistent during the the Golden Age. MGM was ranked first for eleven years between 1931–41, with the exception of 1932 (when all of the companies except MGM were unprofitable) while Fox was ranked second. Although it was the most profitable of the studios during the early sound era (1928-30), Paramount was ranked at third as it languished in decline during the 30s. By 1942, after a decade of steady recovery, it had become more profitable than MGM. Warner Bros. and RKO were regularly switching rankings at fourth and fifth throughout Hollywood's Golden Age. Of the remaining three nominal majors, Columbia and Universal were ranked sixth (and therefore sixth 'strongest') during the 1930s and 1940s, respectively. United Artists had the smallest profitability/market share so was generally ranked in eighth place.
vs.
Your text:
The ranking of the Big Five in terms of profitability (closely related to market share) was largely consistent during the the Golden Age: MGM was number one eleven years running, 1931–41. With the exception of 1932—when all the companies but MGM lost money, and RKO lost somewhat less than its competitors—RKO was next to last or (usually) last every year of the Golden Age, with Warners generally hanging alongside at the back of the pack. Paramount, the most profitable studio of the early sound era (1928–30), faded for the better part of the subsequent decade, and Fox was number two for most of MGM's reign. Paramount began a steady climb in 1940, finally edging past MGM two years later; from then till its reorganization in 1949 it was again the most financially sucesssful of the Big Five. Of the remaining three nominal majors, United Artists reliably held up the rear, with Columbia strongest in the 1930s and Universal in the lead for most of the 1940s.
This paragraph was merely reorganized and reworded using the present, stated data. Do you consider my statement that Warner (Bros.) and RKO as being fourth and fifth (in ranking) erroneous? I figured that if MGM, Fox, and Paramount were first, second, and third, respectively, then Warner (Bros.) and RKO must be fourth and fifth. According to the text of the original before I altered it, there were only five Majors. My changes were logical. If Warners and RKO were not fourth and fifth (or fifth and fourth), then which studios were? If it were UA and some other studio, then that isn't clear in the original text.
The capitalization of the letter 'f' in federal is correct. In fact, we are both correct. Within the context of the article, 'Federal', when attributed to various agencies without actually naming the agencies, is correct. Another example, unrelated to this article: North Korea. It is not unusual to refer to North Korea as the North.
In any event, I recognize you've made numerous contributions to this article. It's an interesting article, but I found it difficult to read.
Mikeetc 21:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Addressing a few other points:
Best, Dan— DCGeist 01:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if the article could discuss the technical aspects of the system and how they evolved in more depth. Namely, that the Kinetoscope evolved from a cylinder to a horizontal reel to the vertical reel which became the "Edison standard". I believe that some of this can be found at Kino's PDF notes written for their Edison DVDs. I'd write it myself, but I don't have the contextual background on the subject which you are probably well-immersed in at the moment. If you need technical specs, we already have them on the list of film formats. Thanks and best luck! Girolamo Savonarola 19:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC) PS - any more thoughts/updates re: Peer review/FAC of sound film?
Do you remember we discussed an almost identical matter? Well if you don't, please visit User talk:Cbrown1023/Archive 1#Dickson Experimental Sound Film for an archive of the discussion. If, after you review that, you have any more questions, please do not hesitate to contact me on my talk page again. Cbrown1023 21:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I've changed the ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Film articles by quality page to reflect our discussion on A-class also. If it is not liked when you suggest it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films, then it will just be reverted. Cbrown1023 22:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Your user page is getting kind of long. You may want to check out Template:Hidden or put some of the information on sub-pages with links on your main user page. This will probably make it easier for you to navigate. Cbrown1023 20:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you'd be able to answer the question better than I could? I'd imagine it would make future work and FAC for the article easier by not even having to worry about fair use justification (as obvious as I believe it would be). Love your recent work on the Kinetoscope article! (You're a hardcore editor.) Girolamo Savonarola 19:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, and welcome to the Biography WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of biographies.
A few features that you might find helpful:
There are a variety of interesting things to do within the project; you're free to participate however much—or little—you like:
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! plange 01:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I finally was able to obtain my own copy of Salt's book, so I thought I'd pass this excerpt along directly to your user page instead of the article talk page - mainly to avoid raising any copyvio issues (you can always delete it later after you've distilled the info should you wish...). Here's it is:
Also, it might be worth mentioning the development of the Latham loop and its central place in enabling the development of projection technology; otherwise, many readers who are not well-versed in the technology might wonder why projection wasn't so obvious and why it took so long to be invented. Girolamo Savonarola 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
[1] - you should definitely look into checking this book out. The price is a bit hefty (I think it's about $150 in the US), but if you can find a library or university copy, it's completely worth spending an afternoon with it. It's a compilation of facsimiles of important documents relating to the development of what became the motion picture, alongside a page or two of text describing the context in excellent detail. And it is in three languages, side by side. Anyway, thought that you would be interested considering your recent topics! Girolamo Savonarola 21:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Wow, amazing work on midnight movies. I'm a huge film geek and am super glad to see such a good article come out of the crap that used to be midnight movies. Andman8 20:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC) |
Whaddya say? :) Girolamo Savonarola 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The November 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 23:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I have started the Nino Frank and Alain Silver articles, as promised. Any help you can provide on Nino Frank would be good ... apart from the 100s of references to him as the coiner of film noir, there is almost no online info available on him. Perhaps his biography is available in paper books? I found Silver's bio very interesting, in that he has two personalities: a practical, business-oriented side (as a movie producer, project coster, etc), and as an intellectual/historian/writer. Both articles are just stubs and they'll need much additional content and formatting. Nazamo 19:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, the reason I proposed the "daydream" link was based on this definition I found on the Princeton.edu page: Definitions of oneirism on the Web: reverie: absentminded dreaming while awake wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn, at this site. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:oneirism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title. Nazamo 19:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi! This is regarding the wikilinks in Kinetoscope. Ok, U.S., Paris, New York City may not nead wikilinks per WP:CONTEXT. But, "inch" does. This is a length unit that many people in the world do not use and so may not understand. A person with no knowledge of science may wish to see what a microscope is. Also, often languages are wikilinked (Greek in this article), this is especially important because the name of the article has Greek routes. So please consider wikilinking units and names of other machienes/technical terms (even if it is so common an instrument as microscope). Regards.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 07:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
This is very very very belated and stupid of me to have not seen before, but reading over the article again today, it hit me: there's been a major oversight in the history. There's almost nothing post-1933! No discussion of which sound-on-film format initially won and then later won in the long term. The technology section doesn't really cover variable density vs. variable area formats, and we've totally ignored all multi-channel sound formats, to say nothing of the digital craze of the recent decades. I know that sound film to a certain degree regards the coming of the sound film, but surely it also covers all developments in the birth and continued evolution of the technology? Don't get me wrong, your work has been great, and I'm very proud that we got it to FA and front page, but having just realized how much is missing, I feel like an idiot! :) What do you think should be done? Girolamo Savonarola 21:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The December 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Please also, if you have not already, add your name to the Member List. Cbrown1023 00:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi DCGeist!
Thanks you so much for fixing this line. I think it is much improved. If there's anything else you think should be fixed (aside from the things we already discussed on the FAC), please don't hesitate to fix it, or contact me to have it fixed. Thank you again. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Pulp Fiction has been collaborating for the past week. All the easy sections are within 10% of "good enough" for GA except the production part with is the most difficult. I would greatly appreciate if you would give it a brief look over. And one more time then i'll quit - awesome work on midnight movie and B movie. Andman8 01:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering which literature your referrring to these films Alien3, Johnny Mneumonic & Terminator as neo Noir? I'm not an expert, only studied a few courses on it at uni, but if you'd point me in the right direction, I'd be appreciative.
Cheers Cameronmurtagh 10:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the star hasn't appeared on the B movie article yet. I guess that takes time. If you're looking for really good early sound film you can't go wrong with M (film). Peter Lorre stars in it and after metropolis Fritz Lang can really do no wrong. The article has a source or two and some information but is light years away from GA/FA. I'm thinking about taking it up as a pet project. If you'd like to help that'd be great. Andman8 02:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
-That'd be wonderful. I have no library to hit as Katy has only existed for the past ten years so the conservative white middle class could have the allusion of security. My rant for the day - anyway -
One more thing, the b-movie article has more than enough info to make 3-4 featured articles. As it stands your work is a feat but a daunting one. I don't think a word should be deleted but rather put into a "B Movies in the Golden Age of Hollywood", Exploitation era, etc. and summarize the main article (quite the task). Just an idea but if you want to and need any help I'm here. Andman8 22:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am quite busy right now so I'll have to go into details some other time, but as the article stands now, it is clearly in violation of FA criteria 1) (e) "Stable" means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day; 4) It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). It fact, not only is it overly large, it is now one of the longest articles in all of Wikipedia. At 127 kilobytes in length, it is almost as long as the article on World War II(!) and longer than the article on World War I. Additionally, the enormous amount of copyrighted pics is unacceptable. As soon as the 30-day waiting period has ended, I will be submitting this article to FA review. Regards, -- Jayzel 14:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This is nothing personal DC. Overall, the writing is outstanding, but it's too much for an encyclopedic article. Please join in on the discussion at the page noted by Outriggr. -- Jayzel 12:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are willing to listen, I have a couple ideas to trim down the size of the article without effecting it too much. Please let me know what you think of them. If possible, I would appreciate it if you implemented them yourself. The article is your baby and you know the subject matter better than myself.
Without a doubt, the info on C, Z, and psychotronic has to go. They each should be given their own articles and you can put links for them in the See also section. Second, the "Decline of the B" and "Digital age" sections should be combined and reduced down to no more than 5 paragraphs. Reading them, I feel this move would in no way effect the quality of the article. Lastly, while the issue of the number of pictures needs to be resolved at some point, the pictures need to be reduced in size in order to help speed up the overall downloading time of the article. If these suggestions of mine are implemented, I will withdraw my request for review. However, after these suggestions are implemented I will personally still try to find ways to streamline the other sections if it's possible without harming the integrity and quality of the article. Regards, -- Jayzel 02:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Great editing. Thank you, very much. I'm struggling to meet the FAR deadline to be honest, but with copy editors like you on board, and having left a note at WP:LoCE, might just scrape it yet! + Ceoil 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Considering your large input on the article I put a maintaining tag on the article's talk page notifying users to contact you with questions or input. Hope that's ok. If you no longer actively keep track of the article or don't want it there just remove it. Quadzilla99 20:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to let you know how much I admire the B movie article. I lurk/work at both FA/FAR, so I am aware of the difficulties you face with it at the present. If you need any help making changes, please feel free to call on me. Also, you may count on my support for keeping this article (or possible topic)at FA status. Jeffpw 10:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It's almost midnight here and I have to get some sleep. I'll give you some more suggestions tomorrow. You've got ther luxury of time, since they won't send it to FAR for another couple of weeks, if at all. By the way, have you ever seen Wild in the Streets? My favorite B movie of all time! Jeffpw 22:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My concern here is that grunge is generally accepted as an alternative rock subgenre, to the point that many of its artists (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc.) are synonymous with the genre as a whole. Another thing to note is that like many alternative sugenres of the 80s, of course it's going to have its roots in a punk subgenre like hardcore, because that's where alternative as a whole emerged from: punk rock. Additionally, this does not take into consideration that gothic rock developed along the same lines (except replace "hardcore" with "post-punk") even to the point of embracing heavy metal influences in the late 80s (oh, those Sisters of Mercy albums . . .) Basically, those are both covered by the alternative rock template, and that can be accessed anyway by clicking on alternative rock. It's just cutting down on the clutter and redundancy. WesleyDodds 11:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Just for clarification, when I said "flat-out wrong" I was refering to merely your interpretation of goth. Sorry about the confusion, it's just one of the things I've studied extensively (and I hope to shape up the gothic rock page in the immediate future) so i got kind of caught in a tangent.
I think we're getting sidetracked (though I do enjoy this discussion too). What I'm trying to convey is not simply "here's how these examples prove my point," it's more "this is what general references say and what is accepted, here's some example to clarify why this is so". Saying alternative rock isn't a sufficient genre term doesn't change the fact that it's been used as one for nearly 20 years. And while the exact boundaries of the genre are hard to pin down, it's generally agreed that grunge, goth, Britpop, indie rock, and shoegaze are alt-rock genres. Now, I can give you detailed examples of how these genres relate and so forth (it's a hobby of mine, it makes conversation working at a college radio station interesting), but that doesn't matter as much as he fat that I can open a book of rock music and find a chapter about alternative rock. And in those books, grunge is listed as a form, derivative of certain styles of punk, but alternative nonetheless. Simply put, music genres refer not merely to musical traits, but movements. Examples of rock movements where the bands might have relatively little in common stylistically are the British Invasion, the canterbury sound, Krautrock, New Wave, Britpop, and even grunge. As a movement, grunge was a post-hardcore alternative rock movement; that's why when grunge became big, alternative rock became widely popular as a whole. I understand your concerns about the meaning of the term "alternative" overall (God knows lots of people do; hell, Mike Watt complained about it on his talk page) and its use as a genre, but it's hard ot argue in the face of history. You know that Rolling Stone article from 1985 I cited in the alternative rock section of the punk rock page? It actually has the earliest appearance in print of the phrase "alternative rock" I have yet found (even then, it's citing a line from the Los Angeles Times).
I can go on about grunge (about how Nirvana's influences shifted from Black Flag/Scratch Acid to Aerosmith/Zeppelin to Pixies/R.E.M./Smithereens, or how Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains pretty much have no hardcore influence, or how by 1990 Sub Pop was one of the hottest labels in the alt-rock scene, without any connection to the burnt-out hardcore scene at the time) but what you should primarily consider is this is how it's been accepted for nearly two decades, and it's really not up to us to say "no, it should be classified this way", at least on Wikipedia. Personally I don't always agree with the intricacies of musical criticism and discourse (Why is the mod revival lumped in with New Wave? What makes the Strokes indie rock when they sound like a retarded garage rawk Television wannabe? Why is Depeche Mode considered an alternative band in some circles when they more or less existed outside of the indie scene, have no real stylistic connection with any of the alt-rock subgenres, and were considered a synthpop boy band in their home country for the whole of the 1980s?) but I'm not here to write down my own musical thesis.
That's the long reply. The short, less music nerd reply is "Grunge is one of the core genres of alt-rock and is discussed at length in the alt-rock article (which will also direct people to the main grunge article), so it's kinda pointless to list them both". That's my nerdy Wiki-navigation reply. WesleyDodds 09:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
2-Tone defintely stays, unless we just want to lump it under New Wave, which it's a subgenre of anyway. I guess ska punk could cover it and the later ska-influenced waves for people interested in that sort of thing. The big names I always hear associated with anti-folk are Billy Bragg and Ani diFranco, and those two are alternative artists; other than that I don't know enough about the genre to make a judgement call. And deathcountry . . . oy vey -Gentile version-, that's one of those genres I think someone made a page for when they were bored one day. Unless clear, reliable references are discovered, we should AFD that thing. WesleyDodds 10:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
You're right, my edit wasn't exactly accurate (I reverted it). I'm out of my depth here unfortunately. -- P4k 12:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
i have an idea on how to reduce the article size, please see the article's talk page. cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.237.186 ( talk) 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
I'm short an adjective for sure, maybe 'aggressive'? I'm thinking of Horses, Siouxsie Sou's braless, dominatrix image, as well as Ari Up's clitorial tendancies. I'm travelling at the moment, don't have the books with me; can you can develop, or I can expand the point over the weekend. I'm impressed by what you've done with the article so far, but the UK first wave needs some work still, which I can do; really don't think it deserves to be section split with Australia. Either the Saints were a proto punk band, or a first wave band deserving equal billing with Sex Pistols, Clash, Buzzcocks etc, but not both. + Ceoil 00:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
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The Barnstar of High Culture | |
I, Ceoil, don't normally go in for this kind of thing, but this in recognition of insightful, comprehensive, and overall excellent work in restoring Punk Rock to Featured Article status status. + Ceoil 00:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC) |
Bloody told ya. Would appreciate a quick copy check over this, soon an FAC. + Ceoil 03:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Holy cow, DC! Why didn't you tell me you were nominating Mutual for FA? Defunct broadcasting companies are, heh, one of my interests on Wikipedia. The adjustments you've made have been excellent, in my opinion. I'll try to give the article a good looking-over today and weigh in. This is awesome! Firsfron of Ronchester 19:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in writing a couple paragraph introduction for the radio portal? From your work to date, it seems you would be one of the more qualified people to work on it. By the way, I added the MBS article to the selected article rotation. -- PhantomS 04:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
At the very top of the radio portal, in the intro box, if you could write a concise history of radio and its uses today, similar to Portal:Photography with a bit of Portal:Food. Typically the beginning of the radio article would be used for this section; however, that article needs major work and can't readily be used. (It's already been placed in the collaboration section on the project page.) Essentially, you are writing an intro for the radio article simultaneously. -- PhantomS 05:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
For reference, in the UK-idiom "From A through B to C" means "Starting at A, passing via B, and ending at C". To someone used to this idiom, "through <date>" looks particularly awkward, which is why most internet sites seem to have compromised on "through to <date>", which is grammatically correct in neither the U.S. nor the UK, but is readable by both. Bluap 05:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The Devil Is a Woman
"'Is', as a conjugated verb, is always capped in title style--despite being but two letters long; great works on the dabs!!)" - so do you want to change it in the article it links to as well? :) -- SteveCrook 10:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I wanted to let you know that you are doing excellent research and writing in the B-movies article. And here I thought your main interest in films was film noir (from your extensive rewriting and research for the film noir article)! You have an extensive knowledge of the history of B-movies......I wanted to let you know that there is another film article in need of your help: art film. I have tried to do a rough first draft of improving it, adding in definitions, laying out some of the challenges of defining art film (the term is often conflated with independent film, auteur films, experimental film, etc.), listing some of the formal features associated with art film, etc. But it is just a start, done by doing some quick Internet research. The art film article needs contributions from experienced film history/film theory writers like you! Nazamo 17:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Just for fun . . .
I found out originally about the differences between the British and American versions of the book when I visited the website. I'm not entirely sure why the US version is shorter, be it due to publisher's concerns about length or because Reynolds re-evaluated portions of the book in the interim. The latter seems likely to me, because the key missing chapters I noticed were the Buzzcocks/Magazine chapter and the chapter on American hardcore and underground rock (Husker Du, Minutemen, Mission of Burma). The former focuses partly on a first wave punk band (although I would have liked to have read about Magazine) and the latter pretty much covers early alternative rock. In the US version Mission of Burma is moved to a chapter that also covers Wire and Talking Heads (It's called "Art Attacks". Because they all had arty tendencies, see?), while the other bands are skimmed over in the Afterword (which I believe is also missing from the Uk version) which juxtaposes alternative rock and New Wave/post-punk to support his thesis that the rise of alternative/indie rock was symbolic of an embrace of music of the past after it had been largely rejected by the modernism and futurism of New Wave and post-punk. He has some interesting points (my favorite, which I've been trying to find a way to work into the alternative rock article is, "And while not explicitly retro, the Smiths and R.E.M.--the two most important alt-rock bands of the day--did seem sixties-redolent because of their plangent guitar chimes and folk-styled vocals. R.E.M. and the Smiths were eighties band only in the sense that they were against the Eighties.") but what I find really funny about the Afterword is that when he's describing the retro tendencies of many alternative bands, he seems to really not like the Jesus and Mary Chain. Like, violently. WesleyDodds 20:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I wanted to let you know that I have posted a very simplified, abbreviated version of the Film Noir article on the Simple English Wikipedia. This wiki site is for children, adults with learning disabilities, and people learning English, so everything has to be simplified. It is at: [4] Nazamo 15:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Mind giving The Smashing Pumpkins a look? I've been working on it for a long time and I'd like to nominate it for FAC sometime in the near future. WesleyDodds 23:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Personally (and I'm not sure I've picked this up as a result of skimming through Wiki essays and guidelines before) I think it's best to only list the sources in the "Sources" section that the construction of the article heavily relies on. Most everything else is a magazine article where I've only referenced a line or two. Plus that would lead to the sources section being insanely large. I think a comparable example is another alt-rock FA, Pixies, where there's plenty of notes, but only the major secondary sources are listed since they form the basis of the article, while everything else is there to verify particular facts. Am I making sense? Because I think I just confused myself.
(Oh, and right now my digital cable "retro-active" station is playing that Peter Gabriel song from Say Anything, which makes the typing of this strangely epic for me) WesleyDodds 08:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll have to watch the DVD again, but the point I was trying to get across was around Gish they played heavy rock with psychedelic touches just because it was so unhip to do so at the time. Although no one's said anything explicitly, I can image it was an especially unhip approach in Chicago at the time, when dudes like Steve Albini and Al Jourgensen defined the local music scene. WesleyDodds 19:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The following are some suggested grammar corrections. By the way, ', with' seems to be used more than it probably should; you might want to look into if the comma is appropriate in all the uses.
Of the four national networks of American radio's classic era, Mutual for decades had the largest number of affiliates but the least certain financial position. - It sounds like 'for decades' should be moved after 'had'.
In January 1937, ownership of WAAB was consolidated with that of Shepard's other Boston station, WNAC, flagship of the Yankee Network, a different, but overlapping circuit of New England radio stations. - This seems like comma splicing.
rivaling in quality if not budget the industry leaders - It sounds like 'the industry leaders' should be moved to after 'rivaling'.
Nick Carter, Master Detective, it would be a net - A semicolon is missing after 'Master Detective'.
That year as well, - It sounds like it should be 'in that year'. Possible phrasing: 'In addition, in that year'
Mutual was at this point by far the largest U.S. radio network in affiliate numbers - The phrase 'by far' should be separated by commas.
Commercial rates had been cut; limited sponsorship packages had been introduced, in which an advertiser could back a show for an abbreviated period rather than an entire season—but there was no reversing the trend. - You might want to look at rephrasing this sentence a bit.
in 1979, as well, Mutual reached its greatest number of affiliates—950. - The phrase 'as well' doesn't sound right here. You might want to use something else.
King continued his MBS call-in show for years even as he also began appearing on television in the mid-1980s. - There should be a comma between years and even. In addition, 'also' should be cut.
-- PhantomS 05:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The January 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Nehrams2020 07:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
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The Working Man's Barnstar | |
For all your hard work on Mutual Broadcasting System I award you this Barnstar. Keep up the good work. Harvey100 14:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
I appreciate all your assistance on The Smashing Pumpkins. While your primary Wiki interest is obviously film (and old cinema at that) you do seem pretty knowledgable about rock music. If there's a rock music article you want to work on together in the future, let me know. I'm aiming to type up a list of books I own to put up on a user subpage in order to give other editors an idea of what I can lend a hand on. Yes, I can also always go to my university library and check stuff out, but it's good for people to know I always keep stuff like Rip it Up and Start Again, some R.E.M. books, collections of alternative rock articles, some back issues of SPIN and Guitar World, and John Harris' Britpop book less then ten feet away from me whenever I'm on the computer. WesleyDodds 22:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Great work! Response to you on my talk page. LACameraman 06:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I might ask for help addressing whatever comments I get here in the next few days: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Smashing Pumpkins WesleyDodds 08:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I had an idea for a music videos section, which I've now posted on the talk page. I've sandboxed a structure here. Feel free to edit it. WesleyDodds 23:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this new licensing decree is one huge clusterfuck. I've browsed through the discussion on the talk page of WP:Fair use. As someone who's always focused on the prose aspects of articles, I've never had a problem wiht my writing being essentially "free". However, I have to strongly agree with you that the new Wikipedia Foundation approach to licensing and fair use is highly inmpractical. How else do you comprehensively cover copyrighted material? I mean, it's not just this article (even though we've all put a lot of work into it). Imagine if we ever tried to get My Bloody Valentine featured but couldn't because the band was still technically "active" and thus we "should" be able to get free images (Ignorning the fact that they haven't been in the the same room since 1993 or so), or the soundclips weren't considered essential enough (despte us being able to find many citations on their musical innovations). I'm imagining the repercussions now on everything from Coca-Cola to Harry Potter to Star Wars to Batman to Pokemon. WesleyDodds 00:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Just thought I would send a note to you thanking you for making all the b-movie fork articles. They're really great. Keep it up.-- Tainter 15:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Same here. It was great having another user (along with LACameraman) skilled in the field of motion pictures/filming on the case; I know litle about the subject. Good luck with your future featured article pushes! — Deckill er 22:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I truly thought I'd added a rationale when I uploaded that live performance image in the smashing pumpkins article. Thank you so much for adding such a well-worded rationale in my forgetfulness! You rock. - Phorque 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
B movie has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan,
I must apologise for the spectacular lateness of this reply - I've been really busy with university work and things and I'm not entirely sure how I managed to miss your message in its first instance. Is this still an issue you require some help with, or am arriving somewhat too late? Let me know, and sorry again. - DJR ( T) 03:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I had a fun two years with wikipedia but am leaving to find greener (literally) pastures. Centiare.com is the future of wiki and the internet as a whole. You are the most intelligent person I've met on wikipedia by far. It's a very select group that actually enjoy black and white movies in another language. I emplore you to join me or at least check out centiare. It uses the exact same software as wikipedia plus several new features like semantic tagging which puts your pages at the top of search results. My name is now the first hit out of 24,000! You can create and promote yourself or your company. Made my own article Garrett Minks and dozens of others. My france article is the featured article today and has given me over 1,000 google adsense hits! Also I've created pages with public domain google movies embedded in them as well as posters and info. See Night of the living dead as an example. Just imagine the possibilites. Whatever you choose I wish you the best. Andman8 22:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that you are an active member of the WikiBiography Project, I was wondering if you would help lend a hand in helping us clear out the amount of unassessed articles tagged with {{WPBiography}}. Many of them are of stub and start class, but a few are of B or A caliber. Getting a simple assessment rating can help us start moving many of these biographies to a higher quality article. Thank you! -- Ozgod 20:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't have the time (nor am I in the mood) to jump too much into this issue by issuing 3RR blocks and whatnot, but what is going on between you and User:Deathrocker? He stated that he is placing these warnings in good faith and that you are doing personal attacks, yet he just changed your userpage with the talkpage. However, he does have a point that you were possibly too harsh in your edit summaries, and you could be called out for that. Please stay cool and don't escalate the situation from your end; I'm going to talk to him and make sure he drops the issue so that everyone can go on to more important, mature things. — Deckill er 21:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Preceding the trolling assault of february 25, 2007:
To verify the nature of Deathrocker's reverts to B movie, The Jazz Singer, and Hollywood blacklist, you may note his utter lack of interest in those articles outside of reverting me and compare the timing of his actions there to activity on Template:Punkbox, whose edit war is the sole source of the situation.
Deathrocker clearly took his recent extreme measures when Ceoil for the first time reverted him on the template and Deathrocker realized his cause there was in deep trouble. It is also easy to determine from the history on February 25/26 that Deathrocker undoubtedly put my Talk page on his watchlist, which we might say is a very, very odd thing to do.— DCGeist 04:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hi, I appreciate your civil and friendly tone on Wikipedia, and your "let's be constructive" attitude. I proposed some cuts to trim Film noir, removing adjectives (e.g. original and seminal...I proposed cutting "original"). The reason I did this is that many Wiki editors overuse adjectives, so usually it is helpful to cut flowery, POV adjectives to a "remarkably gifted solo pianist" or a "widely-acknowledged master of the guitar". In the case of "original and seminal," though, it wasn't just empty verbiage, there was a reason for both, so I agree with you putting them back................Another edit I proposed, which you changed back, was making long paragraphs shorter by dividing them. This is obviously a subjective judgment call in many cases, but I think there are some paragraphs which still could be split in 2. For example, the para:Film noirs embrace a variety of genres, from the gangster film to the police procedural to the so-called social problem picture, and evidence a variety of visual approaches, from meat-and-potatoes Hollywood mainstream to outré. While many critics refer to film noir as a genre itself, others argue that it can be no such thing. Though noir is often associated with an urban setting, for example, many classic noirs take place largely in small towns, suburbia, rural areas, or on the open road, so setting can not be its genre determinant, as with the Western. Similarly, while the private eye and the femme fatale are character types conventionally identified with noir, the majority of film noirs feature neither, so there is no character basis for genre designation as with the gangster film. Nor does it rely on anything as evident as the monstrous or supernatural elements of the horror film, the speculative leaps of the sci-fi film, or the song-and-dance routines of the musical. A more analogous case is that of the screwball comedy, widely accepted by film historians as constituting a "genre"—the screwball is defined not by a fundamental attribute, but by a general disposition and a group of elements, some (but rarely and perhaps never all) of which are found in each of the genre's films. However, because of the diversity of noir (much greater than that of the screwball comedy), certain scholars in the field, such as film historian Thomas Schatz, treat it as not a genre but a "style." Alain Silver, the most widely published American critic specializing in film noir studies, refers to it as a "cycle" and a "phenomenon," even as he argues that it has—like certain genres—a consistent set of visual and thematic codes. Other critics treat film noir as a "mood," a "movement," or a "series," or simply address a chosen set of movies from the "period." There is no consensus on the matter.Just an idea for discussion...P.S. added info on Future Noir Nazamo 15:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, this note is about the aestheticization of violence article, which I tagged with the Essay template. Regardless of whether or not the article should have an Essay tag, I believe that there are still problems with it. This article may be "A content fork"..("usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject"). Perhaps there is a broader article on aesthetics this could go into. Wiki guidelines state that "...content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Wikipedia, as they avoid consensus building and violate one of our most important policies." As well, the article doesn't lay out the different sources of the term "aesthetics of violence" (as in "Professor Jones, the author of six books on aesthetics of violence, defines the term as XXXX. In contrast, Smith defines it as YYYYY.") Nazamo 18:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a great project though I'm not clear why NPR would produce such a volume. Some great composers you list there. There's a good reference book called simply "Contemporary Composers" that has a lot of the Asians listed. I'm very interested in contemporary composers of China, Japan, Korea, etc. too. Good luck with the project. Oh, one more thing that's not well explained here...to sign your "discussion posts," put four tildes after your post and it will magically appear as your "signature." Hope you're on the West Coast, unlike me, where it's 2:30 a.m.! :) Badagnani 06:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't think of that, because since Haydn (and Schubert) I don't think there are that many symphonies with nicknames given by others. There are a lot of gradations: "Sinfonia antartica" (Symphony no. 7) probably bears the title "Sinfonia antartica" and it just happens to the the 7th symphony. I'd say that probably "Sinfonia antartica" should be italicized because it really is the title of the work. Hovhaness' Concerto no. 1 (Arevakal) is another case like this. The Cowell seems to be similar to Symphony no. 9, "From the New World" as to my knowledge it is a numbered symphony and "Madras" is a subtitle giving the impression of the music. There is a way to find out exactly how Cowell titled it: check the Lichtenwanger work list. I think he gives the titles just as they appear (often with misspellings!) Badagnani 19:34, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
NYPL very well might also have the original MS of that symphony, or a microfilm thereof (unless it's at LoC). Badagnani 19:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Didn't know Bacharach studied with Cowell (how did you find that out?) but coincidentally about 2 weeks ago I spoke with Ronald Gould, a percussionist who played in the Madras premiere of Cowell's symphony. He brought a bunch of South Indian drums back to New York with him and in 1959 and 1961, Halim El-Dabh wrote a series of percussion ensemble pieces for them ("Hindi-Yaat no. 1," "Tabla-Dance," and "Tabla-Tahmeel no. 1"). Small world. Badagnani 20:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Nice work. How about mentioning that Bartok wrote to Cowell to ask his permission to use tone clusters in his piano works? I read that somewhere. Badagnani 05:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
The citation was in there for the radio program. I don't think that is well known (I had never heard he had a radio show, or what station it was on), so that's why I added it, for confirmation of this little known fact. There is a way to do footnotes on Wikipedia but it's much easier to just add end notes (like you'll see, for example, throughout Cindy Sheehan. Badagnani 06:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh, great stuff you're adding. The Cuban link explains a lot to me, as Cage's works from this period sound VERY Afro-Cuban-influenced, esp. the Constructions for percussion ensemble, Credo in US, and later Three Dances for Two Prepared Pianos. Badagnani 05:50, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd say leave the notes as is; end notes are a pain (though appropriate in the case of the Thomson reference). Fantastic info in the article! I added what I knew, but you came up with way more! It's an enjoyable process, maybe a little addictive... :) Badagnani 01:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've got tapes of "Credo in US" (from Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival) and "Three Dances" (an excellent recording featuring Michael Tilson Thomas as one of the prepared pianists). The "Constructions" are widely available; I think there's a CD on Wergo. Anyone who insists that Cage's compositions aren't that interesting, or that his work is purely conceptual just doesn't know what they are talking about, as hearing these pieces will prove. They have humor, swing, and energy to burn. See if you can find the recordings at NYPL or some other similar library. Badagnani 01:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Just thought I would mention that your hard work is really turning this article into one worthy of the important figure Cowell was, in so many respects. I've seen a lot of Wikipedia editors but I don't recall seeing one as thorough or conscientious as you. Badagnani 06:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, it's a pleasure to have an article on one's watchlist and whenever an edit is made, it checks out as a good one. You'll find, if you stay here long enough, that that often isn't the case. It's especially bad in articles like Math rock, where people think they know a lot and are very opinionated, but their editing skills aren't great; or in political articles. I'll see if I can find that tape of Credo in US. It's a great one. The "Three Dances" LP with Tilson Thomas shouldn't be hard to find, though I'm not sure it's been released on CD. The last of the three dances is jaw-droppingly virtuosic and AFRICAN in sound. Badagnani 07:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
That German list of works has the spelling of "Antinomy" wrong too...someone should probably let them know that. I was just reading today that Cage found "New Musical Resources" and a book by Chavez to be his two most important influences. I had always suspected a Latin American influence in Cage's early works (from the 1930s and '40s) and this helps to confirm this, though the influence sounds more Afro-Cuban (or West African) than Mexican. Badagnani 19:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello, you have tagged this image with {{ PD-ineligible}}. However, it is clear that this tag is not proper. It could be used for say, simple chemical structural formulas or geometrical figures, but not for photos! Please read Wikipedia:Copyrights and Wikipedia:Image copyright tags. If no proper license will be added in seven days, the image will be re-tagged with {{ no source}} and deleted. Please ask on my talk page if you have any questions. Renata 18:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
New essay on Cowell by Peter Garland. Looks like explosive stuff. http://otherminds.org/shtml/Garlandoncowell.shtml Badagnani 02:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Your tone towards me is entirely inappropriate, stop talking about me. I find your vague implication that I am a bad wikipedian insulting, rather than helpful, and that is clearly not the way to be a good one. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Comment on the content, not the contributor." Hyacinth 23:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You did a good rewrite of the definition of kid noir (Carol Reed's The Fallen Idol is another example of this and of British film noir), but you wrongly deleted its reference. It's of encyclopedic value to know where terms such as this are coined or explained, and by deleting the source cited, the article now has {{no references}}. -- Jonathan F 08:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Many kudos to you for your re-write of Film Noir. I love the writing, the organization, the thoroughness of it. I would race to nominate it as a FAC, but I know that it would be criticized for not being written in a sufficiently lifeless, "encyclopediac" style. I would bet money that the phrase "rife with original research" would be voiced (meaning you dare to state things that could be construed as opinions without buffering them by saying "critic Joe Shmoe has said... [1]".) In fact, I'll be far from surprised if that phrase turns up on the discussion page eventually. But I hope you ignore it if it does. You've written a damn fine article. -- KarlBunker 18:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
It may be useful for you to know that User:Minun has just been banned for one year by the ArbCom and he is currently blocked from editing anywhere but his user page. I suppose he might respond to you there. — Bunchofgrapes ( talk) 19:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Howdy DCGeist -- I ended up moving my response to: Talk:Charles Willeford ! --nathanbeach 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Just thought you'd like to know. Congratulations on a really well-done article. MLilburne 23:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Looks OK to me - did you fix it? Rich Farmbrough 09:26 29 August 2006 (GMT).
I made the changes to the station charts for several reasons:
First and foremost, look at other television and radio station charts such as Metromedia, Tribune Broadcasting, Hearst-Argyle, Gannett Company, and a few others. The style is consistent throughout. The changes I made keeps the charts in-line with the others.
Second, with regards to radio stations: AM stations do not use an -AM suffix after the call letters. Again, you will notice this in the Metromedia radio station chart. If you want to keep the suffix, though place it inside of parenthesis, then that may be fine. But AM stations should read (for example) "WOR-710" or "WOR (AM)-710" but NOT "WOR-AM-710". (FM stations, especially those birthed from AM stations, usually have the -FM suffix after the call signs.)
I attempted to make similar changes some time ago, but they were quickly reverted. I can say perhaps someone is trying to claim ownership of this article, which is a no-no. But I'll reserve opinion until I get a response from this comment. Rollosmokes 16:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey Geist, I happened to have a look at the appeals court's opinion on the case, and it seems pretty reasonable to infer that the court would have upheld the FCC's decision to yank the WOR-TV and KHJ-TV licenses had the FCC not tied their renewals to the WNAC renewal. It appeared to agree with the FCC that lack of candor of this sort is inconsistent with being a broadcast licensee. Blueboy96 18:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, you removed a quote about C movies because it referred to the Japanese film industry. I agree that the Japanese film industry context should be added, but the quote (in reference to C movies) was hard to find. Yes, there are chat site references to C-movies and anonymous websurfers who toss the term around, but it is hard to find a legit film critic type using the term in print. The whole section on "C" movies in the Wikipedia article becomes "original research" without some sources. If you have better sources, please add them. In the meantime, I think the Japanese example is useful, because it shows readers that this isn't just Original Research... Nazamo 04:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The sound film article looks better and better every day. Keep up the good work! — Walloon 05:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the message. Personally, I like Lost in Translation as a nice low-key movie about a friendship between two people. It probably isn't the best movie ever made, but it's on my top 10 for some reason. The top 10 is a little bit out of date, since then I've seen Touch of Evil...
Anyways, about the template. After seeing your revised version, I must say that I would much prefer it over the old version. It seems much better worded in comparasion. I still don't think it should be deleted because it deals with a very specific problem (tone problems, yes, but a particular kind of tone problem).
On another matter, as you're such an expert on film-noir, maybe you can tell me why Vertigo isn't considered film-noir? I know it's in colour, but does that disqualify it?
Hope my response helps. Green451 00:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you tell me why you deleted my votes at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 12? -- Chris Griswold ( ☎ ☓) 14:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I just looked up "Sound film" before you started and compared it to today. WOW; I'm speechless! (No pun intended.) As you are the primary contributing editor to the article, I was wondered when you were thinking of bringing the article to WP:FAC? Also, I'd very much like to personally invite you to join WikiProject Filmmaking - we could always use more contributors like you! :) Congrats on the work so far, and may I say that I very much look forward to your future work. Girolamo Savonarola 15:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
You mis-understood me. I was talking about no new information that can be added in its current state. For example, an article is not really a stub if it cannot be expanded any further, so I meant that it is B-Class (the highest rating that can be given arbitrarily) because it cannot be expanded any more. The reason I rated it as B-Class is because I cannot rate it higher class (GA, A, or FA) as those are give through official Wikipedia channels (such as Wikipedia:Good article candidates and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates). Also, in the future, do not be alarmed or upset by a class, there are no failing grades and they are just constructive. (That is not meant to discourage you from asking for constructive critism, like WP:PR, or to ask for reasons on the rating.)
I do apologize for my rude edit summary. You see, I had been trying to class the articles and you kept just removing the class, making it appear as unassessed again and again. It was especially concering that you just removed the rating instead of, perhaps, taking it up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films as to tell us that it should be re-classed or by doing it yourself.
I do hope I get a chance to work with you in the future. Cbrown1023 23:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello DCGeist:
I respectively disagree that I introduced factual errors or ungrammatical sentences. The following paragraph illustrates my point.
My text:
One month later, it purchased a controlling interest in the First National production company (which was once more prominent than Warner Bros.). This acquisition included a 135-acre studio/back lot and a large number of movie theaters.
vs.
Your text:
One month later, it purchased a controlling interest in the First National production company (more prominent than Warners itself not long before), which had not only a 135-acre studio and back lot but its own large string of movie theaters. Warners had hit the big-time.
What I did was break a long sentence (your first in the paragraph) into two, easier to read sentences. Does that not read better? By first stating what occured - the "purchase of controlling interest", followed by the result of said purchase - "a 135-acre studio...", I think it does.
I also removed some of the 'slang' or vernacular terms in the paragraph. I know what 'big-time' means, but does the word have a place in Wikipedia? I suggest stating that Warner Bros. (it is Warner BROS., isn't it?) became very successful and perhaps cite a source and/or provide data to support the position that after the subject purchase it "hit the big-time."
I also disagree with your statement about the introduction of factual errors. I didn't change any of the facts. I didn't change names, dates, numbers, personalities, etc. So where are the factual errors?
This paragraph was most heavily revised by me:
The ranking of the Big Five in terms of profitability (closely related to market share) was largely consistent during the the Golden Age. MGM was ranked first for eleven years between 1931–41, with the exception of 1932 (when all of the companies except MGM were unprofitable) while Fox was ranked second. Although it was the most profitable of the studios during the early sound era (1928-30), Paramount was ranked at third as it languished in decline during the 30s. By 1942, after a decade of steady recovery, it had become more profitable than MGM. Warner Bros. and RKO were regularly switching rankings at fourth and fifth throughout Hollywood's Golden Age. Of the remaining three nominal majors, Columbia and Universal were ranked sixth (and therefore sixth 'strongest') during the 1930s and 1940s, respectively. United Artists had the smallest profitability/market share so was generally ranked in eighth place.
vs.
Your text:
The ranking of the Big Five in terms of profitability (closely related to market share) was largely consistent during the the Golden Age: MGM was number one eleven years running, 1931–41. With the exception of 1932—when all the companies but MGM lost money, and RKO lost somewhat less than its competitors—RKO was next to last or (usually) last every year of the Golden Age, with Warners generally hanging alongside at the back of the pack. Paramount, the most profitable studio of the early sound era (1928–30), faded for the better part of the subsequent decade, and Fox was number two for most of MGM's reign. Paramount began a steady climb in 1940, finally edging past MGM two years later; from then till its reorganization in 1949 it was again the most financially sucesssful of the Big Five. Of the remaining three nominal majors, United Artists reliably held up the rear, with Columbia strongest in the 1930s and Universal in the lead for most of the 1940s.
This paragraph was merely reorganized and reworded using the present, stated data. Do you consider my statement that Warner (Bros.) and RKO as being fourth and fifth (in ranking) erroneous? I figured that if MGM, Fox, and Paramount were first, second, and third, respectively, then Warner (Bros.) and RKO must be fourth and fifth. According to the text of the original before I altered it, there were only five Majors. My changes were logical. If Warners and RKO were not fourth and fifth (or fifth and fourth), then which studios were? If it were UA and some other studio, then that isn't clear in the original text.
The capitalization of the letter 'f' in federal is correct. In fact, we are both correct. Within the context of the article, 'Federal', when attributed to various agencies without actually naming the agencies, is correct. Another example, unrelated to this article: North Korea. It is not unusual to refer to North Korea as the North.
In any event, I recognize you've made numerous contributions to this article. It's an interesting article, but I found it difficult to read.
Mikeetc 21:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Addressing a few other points:
Best, Dan— DCGeist 01:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if the article could discuss the technical aspects of the system and how they evolved in more depth. Namely, that the Kinetoscope evolved from a cylinder to a horizontal reel to the vertical reel which became the "Edison standard". I believe that some of this can be found at Kino's PDF notes written for their Edison DVDs. I'd write it myself, but I don't have the contextual background on the subject which you are probably well-immersed in at the moment. If you need technical specs, we already have them on the list of film formats. Thanks and best luck! Girolamo Savonarola 19:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC) PS - any more thoughts/updates re: Peer review/FAC of sound film?
Do you remember we discussed an almost identical matter? Well if you don't, please visit User talk:Cbrown1023/Archive 1#Dickson Experimental Sound Film for an archive of the discussion. If, after you review that, you have any more questions, please do not hesitate to contact me on my talk page again. Cbrown1023 21:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I've changed the ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Film articles by quality page to reflect our discussion on A-class also. If it is not liked when you suggest it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films, then it will just be reverted. Cbrown1023 22:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Your user page is getting kind of long. You may want to check out Template:Hidden or put some of the information on sub-pages with links on your main user page. This will probably make it easier for you to navigate. Cbrown1023 20:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you'd be able to answer the question better than I could? I'd imagine it would make future work and FAC for the article easier by not even having to worry about fair use justification (as obvious as I believe it would be). Love your recent work on the Kinetoscope article! (You're a hardcore editor.) Girolamo Savonarola 19:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, and welcome to the Biography WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of biographies.
A few features that you might find helpful:
There are a variety of interesting things to do within the project; you're free to participate however much—or little—you like:
If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! plange 01:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I finally was able to obtain my own copy of Salt's book, so I thought I'd pass this excerpt along directly to your user page instead of the article talk page - mainly to avoid raising any copyvio issues (you can always delete it later after you've distilled the info should you wish...). Here's it is:
Also, it might be worth mentioning the development of the Latham loop and its central place in enabling the development of projection technology; otherwise, many readers who are not well-versed in the technology might wonder why projection wasn't so obvious and why it took so long to be invented. Girolamo Savonarola 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
[1] - you should definitely look into checking this book out. The price is a bit hefty (I think it's about $150 in the US), but if you can find a library or university copy, it's completely worth spending an afternoon with it. It's a compilation of facsimiles of important documents relating to the development of what became the motion picture, alongside a page or two of text describing the context in excellent detail. And it is in three languages, side by side. Anyway, thought that you would be interested considering your recent topics! Girolamo Savonarola 21:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Wow, amazing work on midnight movies. I'm a huge film geek and am super glad to see such a good article come out of the crap that used to be midnight movies. Andman8 20:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC) |
Whaddya say? :) Girolamo Savonarola 01:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The November 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 23:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I have started the Nino Frank and Alain Silver articles, as promised. Any help you can provide on Nino Frank would be good ... apart from the 100s of references to him as the coiner of film noir, there is almost no online info available on him. Perhaps his biography is available in paper books? I found Silver's bio very interesting, in that he has two personalities: a practical, business-oriented side (as a movie producer, project coster, etc), and as an intellectual/historian/writer. Both articles are just stubs and they'll need much additional content and formatting. Nazamo 19:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Dan, the reason I proposed the "daydream" link was based on this definition I found on the Princeton.edu page: Definitions of oneirism on the Web: reverie: absentminded dreaming while awake wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn, at this site. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:oneirism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title. Nazamo 19:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi! This is regarding the wikilinks in Kinetoscope. Ok, U.S., Paris, New York City may not nead wikilinks per WP:CONTEXT. But, "inch" does. This is a length unit that many people in the world do not use and so may not understand. A person with no knowledge of science may wish to see what a microscope is. Also, often languages are wikilinked (Greek in this article), this is especially important because the name of the article has Greek routes. So please consider wikilinking units and names of other machienes/technical terms (even if it is so common an instrument as microscope). Regards.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 07:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
This is very very very belated and stupid of me to have not seen before, but reading over the article again today, it hit me: there's been a major oversight in the history. There's almost nothing post-1933! No discussion of which sound-on-film format initially won and then later won in the long term. The technology section doesn't really cover variable density vs. variable area formats, and we've totally ignored all multi-channel sound formats, to say nothing of the digital craze of the recent decades. I know that sound film to a certain degree regards the coming of the sound film, but surely it also covers all developments in the birth and continued evolution of the technology? Don't get me wrong, your work has been great, and I'm very proud that we got it to FA and front page, but having just realized how much is missing, I feel like an idiot! :) What do you think should be done? Girolamo Savonarola 21:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The December 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Please also, if you have not already, add your name to the Member List. Cbrown1023 00:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi DCGeist!
Thanks you so much for fixing this line. I think it is much improved. If there's anything else you think should be fixed (aside from the things we already discussed on the FAC), please don't hesitate to fix it, or contact me to have it fixed. Thank you again. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Pulp Fiction has been collaborating for the past week. All the easy sections are within 10% of "good enough" for GA except the production part with is the most difficult. I would greatly appreciate if you would give it a brief look over. And one more time then i'll quit - awesome work on midnight movie and B movie. Andman8 01:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering which literature your referrring to these films Alien3, Johnny Mneumonic & Terminator as neo Noir? I'm not an expert, only studied a few courses on it at uni, but if you'd point me in the right direction, I'd be appreciative.
Cheers Cameronmurtagh 10:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed the star hasn't appeared on the B movie article yet. I guess that takes time. If you're looking for really good early sound film you can't go wrong with M (film). Peter Lorre stars in it and after metropolis Fritz Lang can really do no wrong. The article has a source or two and some information but is light years away from GA/FA. I'm thinking about taking it up as a pet project. If you'd like to help that'd be great. Andman8 02:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
-That'd be wonderful. I have no library to hit as Katy has only existed for the past ten years so the conservative white middle class could have the allusion of security. My rant for the day - anyway -
One more thing, the b-movie article has more than enough info to make 3-4 featured articles. As it stands your work is a feat but a daunting one. I don't think a word should be deleted but rather put into a "B Movies in the Golden Age of Hollywood", Exploitation era, etc. and summarize the main article (quite the task). Just an idea but if you want to and need any help I'm here. Andman8 22:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am quite busy right now so I'll have to go into details some other time, but as the article stands now, it is clearly in violation of FA criteria 1) (e) "Stable" means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day; 4) It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). It fact, not only is it overly large, it is now one of the longest articles in all of Wikipedia. At 127 kilobytes in length, it is almost as long as the article on World War II(!) and longer than the article on World War I. Additionally, the enormous amount of copyrighted pics is unacceptable. As soon as the 30-day waiting period has ended, I will be submitting this article to FA review. Regards, -- Jayzel 14:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This is nothing personal DC. Overall, the writing is outstanding, but it's too much for an encyclopedic article. Please join in on the discussion at the page noted by Outriggr. -- Jayzel 12:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If you are willing to listen, I have a couple ideas to trim down the size of the article without effecting it too much. Please let me know what you think of them. If possible, I would appreciate it if you implemented them yourself. The article is your baby and you know the subject matter better than myself.
Without a doubt, the info on C, Z, and psychotronic has to go. They each should be given their own articles and you can put links for them in the See also section. Second, the "Decline of the B" and "Digital age" sections should be combined and reduced down to no more than 5 paragraphs. Reading them, I feel this move would in no way effect the quality of the article. Lastly, while the issue of the number of pictures needs to be resolved at some point, the pictures need to be reduced in size in order to help speed up the overall downloading time of the article. If these suggestions of mine are implemented, I will withdraw my request for review. However, after these suggestions are implemented I will personally still try to find ways to streamline the other sections if it's possible without harming the integrity and quality of the article. Regards, -- Jayzel 02:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Great editing. Thank you, very much. I'm struggling to meet the FAR deadline to be honest, but with copy editors like you on board, and having left a note at WP:LoCE, might just scrape it yet! + Ceoil 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Considering your large input on the article I put a maintaining tag on the article's talk page notifying users to contact you with questions or input. Hope that's ok. If you no longer actively keep track of the article or don't want it there just remove it. Quadzilla99 20:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to let you know how much I admire the B movie article. I lurk/work at both FA/FAR, so I am aware of the difficulties you face with it at the present. If you need any help making changes, please feel free to call on me. Also, you may count on my support for keeping this article (or possible topic)at FA status. Jeffpw 10:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It's almost midnight here and I have to get some sleep. I'll give you some more suggestions tomorrow. You've got ther luxury of time, since they won't send it to FAR for another couple of weeks, if at all. By the way, have you ever seen Wild in the Streets? My favorite B movie of all time! Jeffpw 22:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My concern here is that grunge is generally accepted as an alternative rock subgenre, to the point that many of its artists (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc.) are synonymous with the genre as a whole. Another thing to note is that like many alternative sugenres of the 80s, of course it's going to have its roots in a punk subgenre like hardcore, because that's where alternative as a whole emerged from: punk rock. Additionally, this does not take into consideration that gothic rock developed along the same lines (except replace "hardcore" with "post-punk") even to the point of embracing heavy metal influences in the late 80s (oh, those Sisters of Mercy albums . . .) Basically, those are both covered by the alternative rock template, and that can be accessed anyway by clicking on alternative rock. It's just cutting down on the clutter and redundancy. WesleyDodds 11:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Just for clarification, when I said "flat-out wrong" I was refering to merely your interpretation of goth. Sorry about the confusion, it's just one of the things I've studied extensively (and I hope to shape up the gothic rock page in the immediate future) so i got kind of caught in a tangent.
I think we're getting sidetracked (though I do enjoy this discussion too). What I'm trying to convey is not simply "here's how these examples prove my point," it's more "this is what general references say and what is accepted, here's some example to clarify why this is so". Saying alternative rock isn't a sufficient genre term doesn't change the fact that it's been used as one for nearly 20 years. And while the exact boundaries of the genre are hard to pin down, it's generally agreed that grunge, goth, Britpop, indie rock, and shoegaze are alt-rock genres. Now, I can give you detailed examples of how these genres relate and so forth (it's a hobby of mine, it makes conversation working at a college radio station interesting), but that doesn't matter as much as he fat that I can open a book of rock music and find a chapter about alternative rock. And in those books, grunge is listed as a form, derivative of certain styles of punk, but alternative nonetheless. Simply put, music genres refer not merely to musical traits, but movements. Examples of rock movements where the bands might have relatively little in common stylistically are the British Invasion, the canterbury sound, Krautrock, New Wave, Britpop, and even grunge. As a movement, grunge was a post-hardcore alternative rock movement; that's why when grunge became big, alternative rock became widely popular as a whole. I understand your concerns about the meaning of the term "alternative" overall (God knows lots of people do; hell, Mike Watt complained about it on his talk page) and its use as a genre, but it's hard ot argue in the face of history. You know that Rolling Stone article from 1985 I cited in the alternative rock section of the punk rock page? It actually has the earliest appearance in print of the phrase "alternative rock" I have yet found (even then, it's citing a line from the Los Angeles Times).
I can go on about grunge (about how Nirvana's influences shifted from Black Flag/Scratch Acid to Aerosmith/Zeppelin to Pixies/R.E.M./Smithereens, or how Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains pretty much have no hardcore influence, or how by 1990 Sub Pop was one of the hottest labels in the alt-rock scene, without any connection to the burnt-out hardcore scene at the time) but what you should primarily consider is this is how it's been accepted for nearly two decades, and it's really not up to us to say "no, it should be classified this way", at least on Wikipedia. Personally I don't always agree with the intricacies of musical criticism and discourse (Why is the mod revival lumped in with New Wave? What makes the Strokes indie rock when they sound like a retarded garage rawk Television wannabe? Why is Depeche Mode considered an alternative band in some circles when they more or less existed outside of the indie scene, have no real stylistic connection with any of the alt-rock subgenres, and were considered a synthpop boy band in their home country for the whole of the 1980s?) but I'm not here to write down my own musical thesis.
That's the long reply. The short, less music nerd reply is "Grunge is one of the core genres of alt-rock and is discussed at length in the alt-rock article (which will also direct people to the main grunge article), so it's kinda pointless to list them both". That's my nerdy Wiki-navigation reply. WesleyDodds 09:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
2-Tone defintely stays, unless we just want to lump it under New Wave, which it's a subgenre of anyway. I guess ska punk could cover it and the later ska-influenced waves for people interested in that sort of thing. The big names I always hear associated with anti-folk are Billy Bragg and Ani diFranco, and those two are alternative artists; other than that I don't know enough about the genre to make a judgement call. And deathcountry . . . oy vey -Gentile version-, that's one of those genres I think someone made a page for when they were bored one day. Unless clear, reliable references are discovered, we should AFD that thing. WesleyDodds 10:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
You're right, my edit wasn't exactly accurate (I reverted it). I'm out of my depth here unfortunately. -- P4k 12:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
i have an idea on how to reduce the article size, please see the article's talk page. cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.237.186 ( talk) 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC).
I'm short an adjective for sure, maybe 'aggressive'? I'm thinking of Horses, Siouxsie Sou's braless, dominatrix image, as well as Ari Up's clitorial tendancies. I'm travelling at the moment, don't have the books with me; can you can develop, or I can expand the point over the weekend. I'm impressed by what you've done with the article so far, but the UK first wave needs some work still, which I can do; really don't think it deserves to be section split with Australia. Either the Saints were a proto punk band, or a first wave band deserving equal billing with Sex Pistols, Clash, Buzzcocks etc, but not both. + Ceoil 00:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
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The Barnstar of High Culture | |
I, Ceoil, don't normally go in for this kind of thing, but this in recognition of insightful, comprehensive, and overall excellent work in restoring Punk Rock to Featured Article status status. + Ceoil 00:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC) |
Bloody told ya. Would appreciate a quick copy check over this, soon an FAC. + Ceoil 03:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Holy cow, DC! Why didn't you tell me you were nominating Mutual for FA? Defunct broadcasting companies are, heh, one of my interests on Wikipedia. The adjustments you've made have been excellent, in my opinion. I'll try to give the article a good looking-over today and weigh in. This is awesome! Firsfron of Ronchester 19:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in writing a couple paragraph introduction for the radio portal? From your work to date, it seems you would be one of the more qualified people to work on it. By the way, I added the MBS article to the selected article rotation. -- PhantomS 04:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
At the very top of the radio portal, in the intro box, if you could write a concise history of radio and its uses today, similar to Portal:Photography with a bit of Portal:Food. Typically the beginning of the radio article would be used for this section; however, that article needs major work and can't readily be used. (It's already been placed in the collaboration section on the project page.) Essentially, you are writing an intro for the radio article simultaneously. -- PhantomS 05:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
For reference, in the UK-idiom "From A through B to C" means "Starting at A, passing via B, and ending at C". To someone used to this idiom, "through <date>" looks particularly awkward, which is why most internet sites seem to have compromised on "through to <date>", which is grammatically correct in neither the U.S. nor the UK, but is readable by both. Bluap 05:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The Devil Is a Woman
"'Is', as a conjugated verb, is always capped in title style--despite being but two letters long; great works on the dabs!!)" - so do you want to change it in the article it links to as well? :) -- SteveCrook 10:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I wanted to let you know that you are doing excellent research and writing in the B-movies article. And here I thought your main interest in films was film noir (from your extensive rewriting and research for the film noir article)! You have an extensive knowledge of the history of B-movies......I wanted to let you know that there is another film article in need of your help: art film. I have tried to do a rough first draft of improving it, adding in definitions, laying out some of the challenges of defining art film (the term is often conflated with independent film, auteur films, experimental film, etc.), listing some of the formal features associated with art film, etc. But it is just a start, done by doing some quick Internet research. The art film article needs contributions from experienced film history/film theory writers like you! Nazamo 17:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Just for fun . . .
I found out originally about the differences between the British and American versions of the book when I visited the website. I'm not entirely sure why the US version is shorter, be it due to publisher's concerns about length or because Reynolds re-evaluated portions of the book in the interim. The latter seems likely to me, because the key missing chapters I noticed were the Buzzcocks/Magazine chapter and the chapter on American hardcore and underground rock (Husker Du, Minutemen, Mission of Burma). The former focuses partly on a first wave punk band (although I would have liked to have read about Magazine) and the latter pretty much covers early alternative rock. In the US version Mission of Burma is moved to a chapter that also covers Wire and Talking Heads (It's called "Art Attacks". Because they all had arty tendencies, see?), while the other bands are skimmed over in the Afterword (which I believe is also missing from the Uk version) which juxtaposes alternative rock and New Wave/post-punk to support his thesis that the rise of alternative/indie rock was symbolic of an embrace of music of the past after it had been largely rejected by the modernism and futurism of New Wave and post-punk. He has some interesting points (my favorite, which I've been trying to find a way to work into the alternative rock article is, "And while not explicitly retro, the Smiths and R.E.M.--the two most important alt-rock bands of the day--did seem sixties-redolent because of their plangent guitar chimes and folk-styled vocals. R.E.M. and the Smiths were eighties band only in the sense that they were against the Eighties.") but what I find really funny about the Afterword is that when he's describing the retro tendencies of many alternative bands, he seems to really not like the Jesus and Mary Chain. Like, violently. WesleyDodds 20:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan, I wanted to let you know that I have posted a very simplified, abbreviated version of the Film Noir article on the Simple English Wikipedia. This wiki site is for children, adults with learning disabilities, and people learning English, so everything has to be simplified. It is at: [4] Nazamo 15:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Mind giving The Smashing Pumpkins a look? I've been working on it for a long time and I'd like to nominate it for FAC sometime in the near future. WesleyDodds 23:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Personally (and I'm not sure I've picked this up as a result of skimming through Wiki essays and guidelines before) I think it's best to only list the sources in the "Sources" section that the construction of the article heavily relies on. Most everything else is a magazine article where I've only referenced a line or two. Plus that would lead to the sources section being insanely large. I think a comparable example is another alt-rock FA, Pixies, where there's plenty of notes, but only the major secondary sources are listed since they form the basis of the article, while everything else is there to verify particular facts. Am I making sense? Because I think I just confused myself.
(Oh, and right now my digital cable "retro-active" station is playing that Peter Gabriel song from Say Anything, which makes the typing of this strangely epic for me) WesleyDodds 08:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll have to watch the DVD again, but the point I was trying to get across was around Gish they played heavy rock with psychedelic touches just because it was so unhip to do so at the time. Although no one's said anything explicitly, I can image it was an especially unhip approach in Chicago at the time, when dudes like Steve Albini and Al Jourgensen defined the local music scene. WesleyDodds 19:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The following are some suggested grammar corrections. By the way, ', with' seems to be used more than it probably should; you might want to look into if the comma is appropriate in all the uses.
Of the four national networks of American radio's classic era, Mutual for decades had the largest number of affiliates but the least certain financial position. - It sounds like 'for decades' should be moved after 'had'.
In January 1937, ownership of WAAB was consolidated with that of Shepard's other Boston station, WNAC, flagship of the Yankee Network, a different, but overlapping circuit of New England radio stations. - This seems like comma splicing.
rivaling in quality if not budget the industry leaders - It sounds like 'the industry leaders' should be moved to after 'rivaling'.
Nick Carter, Master Detective, it would be a net - A semicolon is missing after 'Master Detective'.
That year as well, - It sounds like it should be 'in that year'. Possible phrasing: 'In addition, in that year'
Mutual was at this point by far the largest U.S. radio network in affiliate numbers - The phrase 'by far' should be separated by commas.
Commercial rates had been cut; limited sponsorship packages had been introduced, in which an advertiser could back a show for an abbreviated period rather than an entire season—but there was no reversing the trend. - You might want to look at rephrasing this sentence a bit.
in 1979, as well, Mutual reached its greatest number of affiliates—950. - The phrase 'as well' doesn't sound right here. You might want to use something else.
King continued his MBS call-in show for years even as he also began appearing on television in the mid-1980s. - There should be a comma between years and even. In addition, 'also' should be cut.
-- PhantomS 05:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The January 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Nehrams2020 07:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
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The Working Man's Barnstar | |
For all your hard work on Mutual Broadcasting System I award you this Barnstar. Keep up the good work. Harvey100 14:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC) |
I appreciate all your assistance on The Smashing Pumpkins. While your primary Wiki interest is obviously film (and old cinema at that) you do seem pretty knowledgable about rock music. If there's a rock music article you want to work on together in the future, let me know. I'm aiming to type up a list of books I own to put up on a user subpage in order to give other editors an idea of what I can lend a hand on. Yes, I can also always go to my university library and check stuff out, but it's good for people to know I always keep stuff like Rip it Up and Start Again, some R.E.M. books, collections of alternative rock articles, some back issues of SPIN and Guitar World, and John Harris' Britpop book less then ten feet away from me whenever I'm on the computer. WesleyDodds 22:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Great work! Response to you on my talk page. LACameraman 06:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I might ask for help addressing whatever comments I get here in the next few days: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Smashing Pumpkins WesleyDodds 08:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I had an idea for a music videos section, which I've now posted on the talk page. I've sandboxed a structure here. Feel free to edit it. WesleyDodds 23:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Wow, this new licensing decree is one huge clusterfuck. I've browsed through the discussion on the talk page of WP:Fair use. As someone who's always focused on the prose aspects of articles, I've never had a problem wiht my writing being essentially "free". However, I have to strongly agree with you that the new Wikipedia Foundation approach to licensing and fair use is highly inmpractical. How else do you comprehensively cover copyrighted material? I mean, it's not just this article (even though we've all put a lot of work into it). Imagine if we ever tried to get My Bloody Valentine featured but couldn't because the band was still technically "active" and thus we "should" be able to get free images (Ignorning the fact that they haven't been in the the same room since 1993 or so), or the soundclips weren't considered essential enough (despte us being able to find many citations on their musical innovations). I'm imagining the repercussions now on everything from Coca-Cola to Harry Potter to Star Wars to Batman to Pokemon. WesleyDodds 00:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Just thought I would send a note to you thanking you for making all the b-movie fork articles. They're really great. Keep it up.-- Tainter 15:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Same here. It was great having another user (along with LACameraman) skilled in the field of motion pictures/filming on the case; I know litle about the subject. Good luck with your future featured article pushes! — Deckill er 22:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I truly thought I'd added a rationale when I uploaded that live performance image in the smashing pumpkins article. Thank you so much for adding such a well-worded rationale in my forgetfulness! You rock. - Phorque 22:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
B movie has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dan,
I must apologise for the spectacular lateness of this reply - I've been really busy with university work and things and I'm not entirely sure how I managed to miss your message in its first instance. Is this still an issue you require some help with, or am arriving somewhat too late? Let me know, and sorry again. - DJR ( T) 03:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I had a fun two years with wikipedia but am leaving to find greener (literally) pastures. Centiare.com is the future of wiki and the internet as a whole. You are the most intelligent person I've met on wikipedia by far. It's a very select group that actually enjoy black and white movies in another language. I emplore you to join me or at least check out centiare. It uses the exact same software as wikipedia plus several new features like semantic tagging which puts your pages at the top of search results. My name is now the first hit out of 24,000! You can create and promote yourself or your company. Made my own article Garrett Minks and dozens of others. My france article is the featured article today and has given me over 1,000 google adsense hits! Also I've created pages with public domain google movies embedded in them as well as posters and info. See Night of the living dead as an example. Just imagine the possibilites. Whatever you choose I wish you the best. Andman8 22:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Seeing that you are an active member of the WikiBiography Project, I was wondering if you would help lend a hand in helping us clear out the amount of unassessed articles tagged with {{WPBiography}}. Many of them are of stub and start class, but a few are of B or A caliber. Getting a simple assessment rating can help us start moving many of these biographies to a higher quality article. Thank you! -- Ozgod 20:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't have the time (nor am I in the mood) to jump too much into this issue by issuing 3RR blocks and whatnot, but what is going on between you and User:Deathrocker? He stated that he is placing these warnings in good faith and that you are doing personal attacks, yet he just changed your userpage with the talkpage. However, he does have a point that you were possibly too harsh in your edit summaries, and you could be called out for that. Please stay cool and don't escalate the situation from your end; I'm going to talk to him and make sure he drops the issue so that everyone can go on to more important, mature things. — Deckill er 21:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Preceding the trolling assault of february 25, 2007:
To verify the nature of Deathrocker's reverts to B movie, The Jazz Singer, and Hollywood blacklist, you may note his utter lack of interest in those articles outside of reverting me and compare the timing of his actions there to activity on Template:Punkbox, whose edit war is the sole source of the situation.
Deathrocker clearly took his recent extreme measures when Ceoil for the first time reverted him on the template and Deathrocker realized his cause there was in deep trouble. It is also easy to determine from the history on February 25/26 that Deathrocker undoubtedly put my Talk page on his watchlist, which we might say is a very, very odd thing to do.— DCGeist 04:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)