Thanks for your edits to warmblood and other articles. I happen to agree with you, (lordy, just had an edit war over whether the Pinto was a breed!) but be aware that the "American Warmblood" crowd also starts edit wars, we need to be as careful and NPOV as possible! The breed articles in general need real diplomatic editing, I even had to try and settle a spat between two different miniature horse registries and had a fight for a week over the lead image in the shetland pony article, and none of these types of horses am I even an aficionado. (Sigh) Just a heads up. Best to just be sure to watchlist anything you edit and keep an eye on things. Montanabw (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There is now a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Horses for a new "parent" horse project. If anyone who looks at this page is interested, they are more than welcome to indicate their support there. Also, there is a discussion over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse breeds about whether to merge that project in or keep it as a spinoff. Montanabw (talk) 04:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is the official word: WikiProject Equine was quietly created by someone while the rest of us were endlessly discussing a WikiProject Horse. We have an official project! So let's go with it, and I am officially inviting you to formally join! Go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine, add your name to the list and see what you can contribute. If you haven't already joined Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds or one of the other "child" or "affiliated" wikiprojects at WikiProject Equine, please feel free to do so. Just trying to tag articles with the new templates has awakened me to the fact that there are over 1000 equine articles in Wikipedia! (My watchlist alone is now at something like 700+) There's much to do and plenty for everyone! Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Also consider joining Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds. There are a TON of warmblood "breed" (or whatever) articles in desperate need of help! Montanabw (talk) 09:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
My reply: First off, you did a really nice job on the Black horse article. And I am thrilled that you are back, because you have a lot of knowledge and access to some source materials that the rest of us can only dream about! But of course, I must argue with you a little, just to keep things livel! (smile)
I took out the phrase "no spotting patterns" in the genetics section because white markings (be it a snip, leopard complex blanket, or sabino-white) don't make a horse not black, and I think this is important to stress in an encyclopedic article.
Next, here are the three sources I am using to back my responses on the coat dilution issues: http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php (The coat color test page at UCD) http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7703 "Blue's Clues" http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9686 "The Genetics of Champagne Coloring"
[1] Approve Black Gold with "teal eyes" at birth.
Buckskin and palomino foals often have blue eyes at birth.
[2] MEMC Ladyhawke "If you look closely you can see the bluish eyes that many cream dilute foals are born with."
[3] Concealed Gold shows the orangish ear tufts and blue eyes. "This foal, like many dilutes, has blue eyes at birth that will later darken."
On my "to do" list are to clean up the cream article
and give more colors their own articles.
I really want to make the palomino and buckskin articles about the colors, moving the "breed registry" info to its own section.
I'd also like to modify the white markings article to make it more clear that there's not really much difference between a snip and tobiano...that it's all just white markings.
Couldn't resist a new header with a goofy title! How about for now we just settle the champagne/barlink/cream difference of opinion by qualifying statements about blue-eyed single dilute cream foals with lots of "might" "sometimes are said to" "possibly" and "maybe" with fact tags (Sure, someone will probably scream WP:WEASEL, but I'll take the heat for that) and just wait until we find more sources one way of the other? Right now we basically have farm sites as sources, which are kind of iffy, and UCD isn't specific enough on theirs to be definitive one way or the other (maybe one of us should call them and see if they can clear any of this up -- preferably with a recommendation for a verifiable source we could use on wiki. Wonder if there is a treatise on horse coat color genetics newer than 2005 or so??) FYI, we put up Thoroughbred for WP:FA. Ealdgyth and DanaBoomer did most of the heavy lifting, so if you want to lend any support for the effort, see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thoroughbred or the talk page of the article. Montanabw (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There was a very good article in Equus in fall of 2011 or 2012 that covered color genetics. You may be able to bring it up on their website. White Arabian mare ( talk) 14:57, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
[4] You need to check that out. It illustrates what I was talking about. It doesn't show the basepairs, but rather the amino acid translation (which is 1/3 the length). If I'm reading the article right, tobiano is in there too, but instead of being a simple booboo in the nucleotide code, a mess up downstream of KIT causes the KIT gene to be read backwards. (Correcting myself: it turns a big chunk of the chromosome around!) Or something. Enjoy! :) Countercanter ( talk) 03:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Saw your work at gray, but let's collaborate there a bit. When I did the big rewrite on it (about two years ago when I was a less experienced editor), it was a worse mess than now and I put a lot of time into cleanup, trying to keep the best of what earlier editors had there. (OK, so maybe its a mess, and now that my widdle fweelwings were bruised, we are even for all my ruthless edits on your stuff! LOL!) Anyway, my original intent with the photos was to show the variations in gray in a progressive fashion from youth to the older, flea-bitten stuff (really have to take another photo of that flea-bitten mare, she's even MORE flea-bitten now!). I liked a lot of what you did, but I tweaked some stuff. Also, in all honesty, you are the first person who I have ever heard call gray a "pattern." Seems a little close to WP:OR to me -- depigmentation, yeah, but pattern? Anyway, I left the term in the article, but moved it down to a genetics summary in the lead and you can go into more detail in the genetics section (and go for it there, that section is very light and definitely needs improvement).
I'd like you to look over overo and cropout. Sabino I have figured out in my head (at least that its not overo, even if the APHA once thought it was), but the genetics of frame and splash overo are driving me mad -- some sources say they are dominant, but others say they are recessive, and there is also a theory that as many as 11 genes make up overo -- and if overo is in any way dominant, it sure isn't dominant in the same manner as Tobiano. Also, there is lethal white syndrome, which, according to some chat boards, people are now calling the "frame overo test" -- yet the Paint people claim some overos don't carry the LWS allele. (But if they are DELIBERATELY breeding overos knowing there is a lethal in there? Horrors!) Anyway, you want a mess, there's a dandy. The genetics on overo made me rip out hair and I still can't figure it out. (Oh yeah, and then there is the splash overo link to deafness if you want to have more fun!). And how in the he## did Overo wind up in Thoroughbreds? Overo is linked to Spanish lines and does not, to my knowledge, appear in English TB pedigrees, just US ones. Someone sneak in a Quarter horse and not admit it???
As for other "messes," we will have to come to some sort of an understanding on markings and spotting patterns. I'm not at all convinced that a star or a blaze has anything to do genetically with a pinto, so do help sort out the confusion (maybe we could add a genetics section at the bottom of the horse markings article to discuss the current state of the science-- or, by "we" I guess I mean "you" LOL!) You know there are a gob of these articles, I think there are links to all in the horse color template that we are trying to put at the bottom of all the color articles...
Now, onto stuff that needs your look-see and maybe the proverbial ripping into. Champagne gene has been written mostly by other editors, none consistent, and I go over there and do cleanup of what's there, but haven't gone over a lot of stuff that probably needs to be looked at. I did write pearl gene in its entirety, and I wouldn't mind you taking a glance at that (opportunity for revenge after how much I mess with your edits (grin))-- I don't have the access to the good scientific sources you have, so was winging it off UC Davis and various color aficionado sites.
I hope we have enough cross-linking between the smoky black article and the smoky black and smoky cream articles...I think I merged the original smoky black that you redirected into the joint article, but my only real concern is that somewhere people can find out how a smoky cream is a double dilution cream...thought about smoky cream as a separate article, the problem is there is only about one paragraph to say about it, hence the article covering both. Should/could we merge your longer smoky black article into the joint article, or shall they stay split?
Anyway, all for now. I'll watchlist your talk page if you want to answer here, or you can answer on mine. Either is fine. But maybe keep the threads together, either way? Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Enjoy the following:
[8] Abstract of an article I do not have access to yet. It explains that the process of domestication will continuously bring new white marking genes into the mix. The other notable part of this paper is that genes for white markings have been mapped to...drumroll...you tell me ;)
[9] The first conclusion from above is supported by older research in silver foxes: when selected for docile personalities, NEW, UNEXPECTED appearances of white markings cropped up WITHIN 10 generations. That is TREMENDOUS. See examples on this website.
This also describes it well, particularly "Selection and Development." Note the sentence "Later my colleague Lyudmila Prasolova and I discovered that the Star gene affects the migration rate of melanoblasts..." ah, like...? (OK it spamblocked the link...)
[10] Allelic heterogeneity = different alleles, same gene, "same" pattern.
Protein sentences: just read the captions. It shows the human, mouse, and horse sentences lined up parallel and points out where on the gene the different dominant white mutations occur. Sabino and tobiano are left out.
Gah. Okay. I am RACKING my brains to think of another way to explain this. Here, look...
[11] Dominant white mouse. KitW-v
[12] Dominant white mouse. KitW-v
[13] Dominant white mouse. KitW-42J
[14] Dominant white mouse. KitW-57J
[15] Dominant white Franches-Montagnes horse, descendant of CIGALE.
[16] Same guy at age 4. Dominant white.
[17] Dominant white Franches-Montagnes mare.
[18] Dominant white Camarillo White Horse, descendant of SULTAN.
[19] Dominant white Thoroughbred stallion. They do not identify the family but refer to a 1946 stallion as originator of THIS strain of white.
[20] Dominant white Arabian.
Ok. What does dominant white really mean? I get the feeling it has developed this aura of "only one mutation" but the article explicitly states that MANY, SEPARATE mutations at different points on the same gene produce dominant white. Dominant white, like "sabino" and "overo" before it, has the unfortunate role of being a catchbin. *All* that dominant white means is a dominantly-inherited white-spotting gene. It need not be spots of a certain size or shape. It may mean spot on the forehead, spot on the foot, or one giant spot that covers the whole body. We have given several dominant white conditions their own names because they are easily identifiable: tobiano, sabino, etc. Mouse dominant white conditions include gsf spotted coat 1, gsf spotted coat 5, spotted sterile male, dominant spotting 17 Jackson (after the lab), dominant spotting 18 Jackson, dominant spotting 19 Harwell, dominant spotting 1 Baojin, dominant spotting 20 Jackson, dominant spotting 24 Jackson, 27 Harwell, 28 Harwell, 2 Baojin, viable dominant spotting 2 Bruce Beutler (aka Pretty2), 2 Jackson, 34 Jackson, white anemic deaf sterile, sash, Strong's dominant spotting, dominant spotting rio, panda white...jeez do I have to go on? The biggest number I found was 83. All of these genes are on Kit and produce dominant spotting: blazes, white tail tips, belly spots, rump spots, mostly-white animals with dark eyes, etc. Looking at the dominant white horses above, how would you take YOUR definition of sabino and use it to make a meaningful distinction between what you call "sabino-white" versus "dominant white"?
I do not explain this for the benefit of Wikipedia, by the way. So this doesn't need to be elucidated in an article.
No Arabian has tested positive for sabino. They are not sabino-white, unless by "sabino white" you mean sabino-CATCHBIN-white which is just another way of saying dominantly-inherited-as-yet-unnamed/unidentified-white-spotting-gene, dominant white.
All for now, much to do, scary how much. Montanabw (talk) 01:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Sultan born in 1912, ancestor of the Camarillo White Horses. Cigale born in 1957 ancestor of the white Franches-Montagnes. Plus all the dominant white TBs and Arabians that you're probably familiar with.
What I am saying is that Kit mutations are common as far as viable mutations go, so even if TBs didn't have white markings that extended past the knees and hocks, they would inevitably develop them. Studies on the Franches-Montagnes horses show that no matter how hard breeders try to select for solid horses, the nature of domestication will thwart them. Mesaoud undoubtedly had his own type of dominant white spotting mutation that he passed on. Okay. I need to sleep. I know I sound flustered. I'm more excited and trying to share with you something I feel strongly enough about to spend another 6-8 years in school for. PS I am a big Arabian fan and keep very up-to-date on my horsey news so I am aware of the many different families of white Arabians and TBs and such :)
Countercanter (
talk)
05:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
You suggest that only the mutation in the Camarillo White Horses represents dominant white and we ought to call the rest sabino. Let's clarify and set up some rules for terminology. First off, let's use sabino to describe actual sabino. True sabino. Sabino proper. Everything else can just be white markings, or better yet, a white pattern. A star is still a pattern.
The most recent study on dominant white - Allelic Heterogeneity... - describes dominant whites as: dominantly-inherited, on the "W" locus (KIT gene), eyes are normal, "expressivity can range from ~50% depigmented areas up to a nearly completely white coat." This matches the definition of dominant white in other animals, namely pigs and mice. We should follow convention in an effort to be accurate.
Point #1. Franches-Montagnes = sabino? No. These horses do not test positive for sabino. So far only Walkers and MFTs have Sabino1. I'm not sure if Paints do. I've seen a Mustang that did test positive.
Point #2. Franches-Montagnes = gray? No. Owners of rabicanos and other extensive white markings describe patches that grow, too.
Point #3. Franches-Montagnes do not represent dominant white. Untrue. They are a classic model of dominant white. Mau's 2004 Dominant White study was about the white FMs.
Point #4. One parent must be white to classify a foal as dominant white. Sort of. The term dominant does mean that a trait IS expressed in the parent. The claim that a white foal isn't dominant white if a parent wasn't dominant white is based on misunderstanding. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? These spontaneous mutations occur with *relatively* high frequency. That means that the rate of their OCCURANCE is greater than in the wild, regardless of selection. Our selection for temperament affects this rate; that is the "groundbreaking" part of the silver fox studies. Furthermore, such a definition doesn't take into account things like gene interaction: the sum of tobiano + frame is a horse with more white than a tobiano or a frame. This is true for other patterns as well.
Point #5. Dominant white must be lethal. Why? According to whom? Those who wrote the original studies, which were based on CWHs and FMs, made the observation that the trait appeared HZ-lethal. This was supported by similar discoveries in mice. However, let us not forget "viable dominant white" mice. This is not a criterion, but an observation.
Point #6. Dominant white horses have no colored skin/hair. Patently 100% untrue. You cite the CWHs as classic dominant white. All CWHs have the same mutation, but compare all of these CWH foals: [21] At least two have very visible distribution of pigmented hair on the topline. The others likely do as well but the photos are less clear. I remember the breeder of a dominant white TB stallion admitting that to obtain APHA papers, a small patch of pigmented skin had to be found, and was. Why this variability of expression? The 2007 study explains that cell workings have a method of pruning out "broken" proteins if they catch them called Nonsense mediated decay. Since these heterozygotes have a functional copy of their KIT protein, NMD may be clearing out enough broken protein to allow some pigment to form. The efficacy of this process varies; so does the amount of pigmented skin and hair.
Point #7. Arabians do not have dominant white. Yes, they do. It is not the same as the Clydesdale pattern.
Point #8. Human error most likely caused the appearance of white TBs, because mutations are rare. There are several things to point out here. What has been found is not that white markings occur and are selected for, rather than against like in the wild, but that they show up more often and continuously crop up at a higher rate than they do in the wild, even before an animal would be subject to predation. The genes that are involved in determining brain wiring are involved in pigmentation. Furthermore, none of the Paints tested in 2007 for those KIT mutations had them. We can use genetics to determine when a mutation occured. This one family of white TBs is perfect. They have a gene; other white TBs from other families do not, nor do non-white related TBs, nor do Arabians white or non-white. That suggests that the gene popped up after the two populations were separated.
In summary, let me suggest that we use the following terms:
Let's see how far this gets us in our discussion. Countercanter ( talk) 15:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
06.09.08: removed old discussions.
To Do: Contribute to Babolna stud.
Draft breeds: Oberlander Horse, Rhenish-German Cold-Blood.
Anglo-Arabian breeds: Pleven (horse), Kisber Felver, Anglo-Arabian, Gidran
Riding Horse breeds: Kinsky horse, Czech warm blood, German Warmblood, Hungarian Warmblood
Colors: Pearl gene, Black (horse), Chestnut (horse), Equine coat color, Cream gene, Cremello, Champagne gene, Dilution gene, Dun gene, Splash white, Lethal White Syndrome, Color breed, Tobiano, Overo, Sabino horse, Leopard (pattern), Cropout, Smoky black and smoky cream
Others: Collection (horse), Lead change, Canter, Impulsion
Countercanter ( talk) 11:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I have heard complaints that UCD's stuff is outdated before (They took down their "New Genetics of Overo," which was from the 90's, but it's still out there elsewhere, and the Appaloosa article dates to the 80's, I think). But it's published and on the web. Trouble is, a lot of newer stuff is in hardcopy or not yet published in scholarly journals (what's the lag time, like six months to a year for peer reviewed journals?? I know a guy whose article was finished, submitted and he literally DIED before it finally hit print!) and is sort of summarized at best in half-accurate fashions on blogs and chat boards. (whining). I know the gang at UCD are kind of hot on the tail of the dilution genes at the moment more than anything related to spots. (Or genetic lethals, for that matter, which is my thing, and I have had dealings with them on this directly, AND dealt with some less-than-organized people...grrr...feel free to email me if you want the whole tale of woe!) Cornell pretty much beat them to the HERDA test, I think, though they graciously shared credit.
But griping about the shortcomings of UCD aside, the problem is that we need verifiable sources on Wikipedia (per WP:CITE and WP:V), especially given horse poliltics (particularly on lethal whites in whatever fashion) and so we need published stuff, ideally stuff that can be verified by other users without racking up fees of $30 per article (sigh, grumble!) ... I am cool if there are successors to Bowling and Schoenberg (sp?) but isn't Bowling's treatise on horse genetics still one of the more recent ones? And she died in what, 2000? I'll trust you on scans of articles like the one you posted, and also trust you on direct quotes from scientific literature that may be published in hardcopy, but we need to be careful to be sure we are quoting others in proper context and not our own synthesis of research (per WP:OR). It's a PITA (pain in the A--), but the whole process of surviving not one but two GA reviews and re-verifying everything in Arabian horse to get it ready for FA is teaching me some hard lessons about wikipedia standards that has been hard on the ego, but probably good in the long run. (And I STILL hate the citation templates!) Montanabw (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
[23] More examples.
Well I *said* you had to look CLOSELY. :P Ticking is interesting. But as before, Genes Are Conserved. As you can see from the roan dog section of the article, it's proving very tricky to sort out. If you asked me for my opinion, I forecast that ticking/roan in dogs will prove very similar to the leopard complex. In dogs, ticked/roan is ONLY expressed in WHITE areas. In Lp horses, this is also the case: the big spots (in hets; homozygous Lps have liiittle spots) are found in the middle of large regions of white that are genetically controlled separately. The deafness of Dalmations isn't due to the roan/ticking, but to the parallel of maximum white. Dalmation spots, which are big and well-defined, are visible on the white areas, which happen to be all over. In cats, ticking is caused by something else entirely. It's related to agouti rather than distribution of white. Cats and mice (and dogs, I imagine) have "Chinchilla" type coats that are also I believe agouti-controlled; the hairs are pale but tipped with black. Chinchilla in mice is described as "reduces the yellow in agouti coloration, and slightly reduces the black" so is actually analogous to cream. I'm rambling. But [24] here is a SUPER awesome page on mouse markings. Ednrb = frame, btw! It beautifully shows the Dominant White complex, explaining that homozygotes for *any* of those conditions produce black-eyed-whites and seem to be lethal, but that pairing two or more different conditions can produce viable black-eyed-whites. I'm sure all this sounds familiar. BTW, have you noticed that frame and splash are associated with blue eyes, and the others are not? There is a reason for this... :) So no, I have no idea what causes rabicano. We have 3 or 4 red rabicanos at my barn...all ponies. Hoping to get photos of them stood up with our bay roan!
PS, the way to tell rabicano from dun guard hairs is that guard hairs aren't always/usually stark white. Dun and its signatures are part of the wild type condition, and since pigment's first role is to protect cells from radiation (from the sun), a wild type condition ought not contain true, unpigmented white. It might take a microscope or an NMR to tell for sure if pigment is in the hairs though. Rabicano is a depigmentation pattern; those hairs should be true white. If I recall correctly from hosing down our rabicanos, the white hairs are associated with pink skin. I will check to make sure, and take photographs at some point over the summer. The conundrum is that since rabicano is so closely linked to other white spotting patterns, can one safely chalk up pink skin to rabicano? [25] Here is an example. Black rabicano Arabian; mottled skin under rabicano roaning.
As far as white ticking that has its epicenter just aft the stifle, but also affects the base of the tail...ya got me! I'm sure that someone more familiar with developmental processes could tell us. Then again, with frame part of the confusion is that we don't automatically associate the colon and the coat! Countercanter ( talk) 12:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Whoops! An edit conflict again! I'll work your tweaks back in, give me a sec. Be out of the article in 15-20 min, then you can fix everything I screwed up! Montanabw (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Nice work on the chestnut genetics, by the way, but may need to wikilink to more of the genetics terminolgy. Anyway, totally unrelated (or maybe somewhat related) to all of the above, here's the conundrum that has been puzzling me for a few years: The depigmentation process in aging horses who have no apparent reason for it. I have an old dark bay ("Brown") mare who is 28 (Purebred Arab). (in photo, you can't see the white hairs really, the resolution is too poor, but you can see her base color. She also dapples) Her dark bay sire, who had very little white other than a big white snip on his nose, had one faint body spot that the Sabino fans claim indicates the presence of a sabino gene. Her dam was a gray. FWIW, there were six full siblings from this cross, three dark bays, two grays and a blood bay. All with very little white. My mare has had a few gray guard hairs at her throatlatch and a small white spot at the peak of her sacrum for many years (but not from birth). But starting in her early 20's, she began to have more little gray hairs every year, mostly on her upper neck, but also in her tail, on her face, etc. This year, her neck is quite noticably flecked with white hairs, and she now has faint white hairs right at the bottom of her flank, around her jaw, a few white hairs around her white spot on her spine, and a few white hairs by her elbows--but most noticable on her neck. In contrast, her 1/2 sister -- with the same sire and a bay dam -- is 25, has zero graying/roaning anywhere. So what do you think we have? Depigmentation due to age-related graying, some sort of sabino thing cropping out...? Curious... Montanabw (talk) 04:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
A no refs tag has cropped up on Swedish Warmblood. Seeing as how you are the warmblood goddess, want to take a quick run at that article, toss in a source or two? Probably no time to do the big cleanup it needs, but maybe toss in a references section at the bottom with some good places to start for later footnoting? (Like I did back when I was doing round one of the massive color article cleanup.)
If you want to do something kind of fun and light, a new article on the Budweiser Clydesdales has been created and needs expansion. The folks editing on Clydesdale didn't want much mention of the Bud team there (the laundry list thing, and favoritism, etc., not worth the hassle), but now that they have their own article, maybe there are some fun factoids out there.
Nice work on Chestnut, by the way. You might want to wikilink more of the terms, though, "nonsense mutation," etc... Montanabw (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Found ads for the horse identified as "dominant white" in that article. His owners call him Sabino. Also found the 1996 horse that is the sire, identified by his owners as a "maximum bay sabino." I never count on owners to understand color genetics, but take a look: http://mapleridgefarm.homestead.com/rkhasperfoals.html
The 1996 stallion who sired this horse is R Khasper: http://www.sabinoarabianhorseregistry.com/stallion10.html
http://mapleridgefarm.homestead.com/rkhasper.html
Though sabino in Arabians generally does not act all that dominant, this boy is throwing the white sometimes, which is probably why they are calling it "dominant" (he threw a half-arab/half-QH with it, among other things):
No indication that these guys have been tested specifically for SB-1 (they usually advertise if they have been tested...) Thoughts?? Montanabw (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just wanted to give you a heads up that I put in a photo of a faint dorsal stripe on a bay horse in the bay (horse) article. (Photo is of my blood bay mare, the one you also put up as the lead photo...BTW sire was a bay, dam was a bay, no dun genes anywhere!) If there is anywhere else it would be helpful, use as you wish! Montanabw (talk) 05:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Just uploaded apic of a silver dapple mini that shows really nice dappleing. not sure where you would want it on the page. i also currently have a weanling smokey black shetland (sire-Pal, Dam-bay) who is the color of a hersey's candy bar. Would you like me to take a pic of her and put it on the smokey page? i also have pics of dark bay roans if you need them. Firesongponies ( talk) 15:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Should have the Smokey black pic later today. Hopefully the barn will not be too dark. it's currently blizzarding so taking it out side is not currently an option. I'll also get close ups of the red tips to the main. are there any other horse colors that need pics (or better ones)? I go to a lot of expos and horse show and can work on getting good pics the up coming year. as long as ppl don't mind them being of a breed other than a QH that is. Firesongponies ( talk) 09:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
What parts of the harness do you need? i drive my ponies both in the 'Fine' style and the draft style. i only have like 8 harnesses laying around my tack room -grin- My camera is acting up so all the pics i took the other day of the smokey black have 'sun spots' even though they were taken in a barn!! -le sigh- time to get a new camera i think. Firesongponies ( talk) 19:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Would you peek at a weird thing on genetics someone put into Lipizzan? Whoever did the edit clearly doesn't understand the difference between a white horse and a gray one, but they cited a source, so I'd best not get snarky and toss the whole thing, tempted as I am. I think really all that needs to be said is that Lipizzans are gray, wikilink to the gray, add the article (if relevant) to the gray horse section, and call it good. However, maybe Lipizzans have some weird form of gray? I seriously doubt it, but...anyway. (One of my minor ongoing aggravations is dealing with people who don't get that most "white" horses are grays...sigh, grumble, grumble...) Montanabw (talk) 06:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Interesting article on the gray gene in horses. Have you seen this? http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12468&nID=43&src=RA Maybe you already knew all this, I didn't, very cool info -- though recently just reverted a bunch of links to a commercial company who is apparently already marketing a color test. Sigh. May add some of the material into gray (horse) if I get around to it, maybe watchlist the article and check over my work (your turn to edit me, eh??) Not being a geneticist, I may put something wrong or nuance it improperly in my attempt to write in plain English. Montanabw (talk) 03:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello, all --
I realize that this is a distasteful subject to many in the horse field, especially among those with a love of show jumpers, but the John Edwards and Rielle Hunter affair currently in the news has opened up many, many questions on the subject of the late 20th century horse murders scandal. The reason for that, in case you don't know, is that Rielle Hunter was formerly Lisa Druck, whose father, James Druck, conspired to have her beloved show jumper Henry the Hawk electrocuted to collect the insurance money on him. This tragedy formed the background for a 1988 novel based on Lisa Druck's life, called Story of my Life by Jay McInerney. Later, in the early to mid 1990s, the actual horse killing scandal was exposed to the public through articles in the New York Times and Sports Illustrated, and then through a full-length book called "Hot Blood." An FBI investigation into the horse murders led to the conviction of a number of highly placed people in the show jumper and general equestrian sports world on charges of insurance fraud.
When Rielle Hunter's background was probed, due to her affair with John Edwards, it turned out that she and her horse were prominent victims of the horse murder insurance scam, and her own father was one of the orchestrators of the criminal activities. But in trying to link this information up to her bio article, it turned up that there wss no article on the subject of the horse murders at Wikipedia, doubtless because the scandal occured before the development of the world wide web. An article was just created today, but it is not comprehensive in scope and needs to be expanded greatly lest it be deleted. There is an article on the murder of the millionairess Helen Brach whose death, in 1977, was also connected to the horse murders scandal, and it too could use improvement.
I am looking for a few good editors who have the brackground to write the horse murders article, and to link it to the Helen Brach murder, show jumping, and Rielle Hunter articles. No need to reply to me -- if you are interested, you know what to do. I will try to help, also, as best i can, but the topic is far from my usual field of writing, and i would prefer to see it handled by those with the greatest depth of knowledge on the subject.
If you need sources to cite, you can find the best of them at the Rielle Hunter page in the section on her early life and family. Here are two more:
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8173FF936A3575AC0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, On Killing Horses for Money: A Craftsman's Dirty Secrets, by Don Terry, Published: September 5, 1993]]
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5DF1639F933A05753C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, Horse Show; Equestrians Facing Competition and Lingering Scandal, by Robin Finn, Published: October 30, 1995]]
I am posting this identical request to a number of horse-related talk pages, so you may see it more than once, for which i apologize in advance.
Sincerely, catherine yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ChampagneHorse.JPG The image and one like it were successfully inserted into champagne gene. User:Kersti Nebelsiek seems to be a master at getting photos from scientific articles to pass muster in Commons as free images. Maybe you can figure out if she has any special magic other than finding free sources that you/me/we can use to find an LWS image...I'm sort of tied up in real life right now, plus have the GA for horse to take my focus at the moment (feel free to weigh in there if you want to, though) so other than wordsmithing, I'm not going to be a lot of help... Montanabw (talk) 23:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
CC, can you add any info on the warmblood branding regulations in the USA or in Europe to Livestock_branding#Horse_branding_regulations? Much appreciated if you can. Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 03:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You wrote " I'm sleepy; I just finished the last book in that atrociously trashy, thoroughly enjoyable teenage vampire romance series." (grin) If you liked those and think werewolves may also be cool, you may want to check out Patricia Briggs (who, by the way, also happens to be a horse person like us!) Montanabw (talk) 20:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Great work on Leopard complex. This barnstar's for you! Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
Hey Countecanter, There is a high school student who did an upgrade of Banker Horse for a class project, collaborating with other wikipedia editors (like me). It is now listed at Peer review and because apparently the entire class flooded PR with about 20 simultaneous requests, they asked if WikiProject Equine would help review this particular article. Myself, Ealdgyth and (I think Dana) all weighed in on the process so are sort of COI on doing a neutral review, so I'm asking some of the other horse article editors if they'd like to take a look-see at the article and comment at the peer review page. This was a great kid to work with and a neat thing for a school to do as an assignment. You have done so much on the horse breed articles, you may have a lot to offer here on a peer review. So if you can help out, Thanks in advance! Montanabw (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Just stopping in to say thanks for such an extensive peer review on the Banker horse article. I highly doubt that it was "fun" read and I am sure that some of my errors probably made you cringe... So thanks for plowing through it! I appreciate all of your efforts and insights. Cheers! -- Yohmom ( talk) 20:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey CC, check out this discussion: Talk:Horse_markings#Yellow_eyes What do you think we have here? These are really unusual! Montanabw (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
If you want a dandy example of a bleached out, but DNA tested homozygous black, note this pic. Purebred Arab, tested at UC Davis, definitely no cream gene. (Sire was black, dam was a bay visually so dark I thought she was black, but dam was tested and carried agouti) I took the photo in early spring, her winter coat was on the verge of shedding, so all dry and yucky. She was a long 2 year old at the time. I have since solved the bleaching problem by feeding her a flaxseed/rice bran supplement. (Now I have to figure out how to solve the "Goodyear blimp" problem! LOL!) Oh, also note the light hairs inside the ears. Montanabw (talk) 08:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Saw your congrats to Yohmom. Seriously, CC, I really think YOU should take an article through the GA gauntlet. Basically, all you have to do is be able to endure tons of nitpicking-- some legitimate -- from a bunch of non-horse editors! LOL! I think that either Lethal White Syndrome or one of your better warmblood breed articles could go GA without much trouble. (In a perfect world, we'd have a photo of a LWS foal to add there. Seems like I saw one somewhere? Did you add it or did Kersti N??)Dana got both Haflinger and Suffolk Punch there almost entirely by herself, (as I originally did with both Equine nutrition and Arabian horse). Ealdgyth and Dana do a lot of GA/FA review now and both could give you some comments in a kind and not-as-ego-deflating a manner as the great wiki-public, or you could independently request a peer review and see what comes up there. Basically, you need to be able to log on daily for a week or so to address any comments that come up, but your work is good and after putting up with my nitpicks and hissy fits, no one on GA review is apt to be any more difficult to deal with than I! LOL! Go for it! Montanabw (talk) 03:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Navigation among the many horse breed articles is being discussed now on Template talk:Equine. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
That really nice photo of the trotting, buckskin Akhal-Teke got tossed for a copyright problem. We need to replace it in a few of the articles. I don't have the time to go dig, can you? Montanabw (talk) 02:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I found another "real" warmblood breed that didn't have an article, so I made a quick stub: Furioso-North Star. See also Furioso (disambiguation). Sort of stumbled across it by accident, but you are the warmblood guru, so letting you know it's there if you want to tweak it any. Montanabw (talk) 08:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
CC-- Can you also watchlist Equine coat color and check my recent edits? I am trying to clean it up and yet keep it really, really simple. I undoubtably did not put something correctly there, so your eyeballs and comments (or edits) would be much appreciated. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 02:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Yet another: Isabelline (colour). Another editor is doing some cleanup there. S/he was trying to explain to me that, at least in birds, "Isabellinism" is a form of leucism, which I don't think is what is going on with cream dilution??? Anyway, take a peek and see if anything needs a tweak. My understanding is that "Isabelline" isn't even a word reallyused by English speakers to describe palominos and cremellos (I seem to see it in German wiki...?) But anyway, you know I am a little fuzzy on the details of all the pigmentation and depigmentation stuff and I need you to sort it all out -- my head is stll exploding over the concept that chestnut is a form of albinism, except that albinism is an outmoded concept... %-) Montanabw (talk) 02:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Wizardman 20:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Montanabw has bought you a pint! Sharing a pint is a great way to bond with other editors after a day of hard work. Spread the WikiLove by buying someone else a pint, whether it be someone with whom you have collaborated or had disagreements. Cheers!
Congrats! You done good! This was probably the smoothest GA I have ever had the privilege to observe. Luckily, we had good pre-GA review and then the actual GA worked on by an experienced reviewer, and that helped a lot to avoid the stupid questions (like "can't you say 'castrated male' instead of 'gelding'?"! that I have had hit me in some reviews. Pat yourself on the back, and have some champagne! Montanabw (talk) 04:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
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The Fauna Barnstar | |
To countercanter, well done for bringing dominant white to Good Article status. Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 21:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC) |
Hey CC, I like the new roan article, in fact GREAT JOB! However, some administrative cleanup is needed. 1. Let's remove duplicative material from roan (color), replace with a summary and add a "Main" tag to direct to the new article. 2. And this is VERY important, see all the horse articles where we link to roan (color). Special:WhatLinksHere/Roan_(color) All of the horse ones now need to be changed to Roan (horse). Yeah, I know, it's a big PITA, but as they say, the job isn't finished until the paperwork is done. I'll drop a note at WPEQ talk page to see if I can round up some extra hands for the redirect job. Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
CC, would you take a peek at the "Genetics" section of Appaloosa? We ("we" meaning mostly Dana boomer with me doing my usual cranky interfering...) are cleaning it up for a possible FA run (gluttons for punishment that we are) and I'd like to be sure that section is solid (it already has a link to the leopard complex article, so our section is just a summary) While I can swipe your best stuff from leopard complex, I'd rather have your eyes live and in person on this. Comments and suggestions welcome, and in fact, if you wanted to comment on the overall article in general, we'd be glad to hear your thoughts. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Seal brown (horse) may need your input. Montanabw (talk) 20:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
People "feel strongly" about Albinism because the article is a very frequent vandalism target, and is also frequently edited by good-faith editors who don't actually know what they are talking about. A well-read, serious editor like yourself should not avoid editing it, especially just to add a link. I've linked the first occurrence of "amelanism", in the lead, to your new[ish] article. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Say now that you're back, trot over to the WP Equine talk page, we are kicking around two things of interest to you; one is Pitke's idea of an infobox for the horse coat colors (which I am intrigued by, but no time to help on it much); the other, Ealdgyth's idea that we try to get a "Wikiproject" triple crown by having five editors earn the "triple crown" of WP achievement (A GA, an FA and a DYK). She and I have it, and you are almost there -- you got two of the three with dominant white, and Dana also qualifies if she will not be shy and get nominated, and Cgoodwin also has two out of three. We are sooo close and it would be fun... Montanabw (talk) 06:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
In your warmblood research, ever come across a breed called the "Fürstenbergian"? Has popped up in Pitke's research on the Finnhorse article. S/He's doing a really good job there, too. I am quite pleased. By the way, we don't have an article on the flaxen thing in chestnuts. Do you have enough info to create one? Montanabw (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
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Happy Holidays | |
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC) |
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Thanks for your edits to warmblood and other articles. I happen to agree with you, (lordy, just had an edit war over whether the Pinto was a breed!) but be aware that the "American Warmblood" crowd also starts edit wars, we need to be as careful and NPOV as possible! The breed articles in general need real diplomatic editing, I even had to try and settle a spat between two different miniature horse registries and had a fight for a week over the lead image in the shetland pony article, and none of these types of horses am I even an aficionado. (Sigh) Just a heads up. Best to just be sure to watchlist anything you edit and keep an eye on things. Montanabw (talk) 21:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
There is now a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Horses for a new "parent" horse project. If anyone who looks at this page is interested, they are more than welcome to indicate their support there. Also, there is a discussion over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse breeds about whether to merge that project in or keep it as a spinoff. Montanabw (talk) 04:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This is the official word: WikiProject Equine was quietly created by someone while the rest of us were endlessly discussing a WikiProject Horse. We have an official project! So let's go with it, and I am officially inviting you to formally join! Go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine, add your name to the list and see what you can contribute. If you haven't already joined Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds or one of the other "child" or "affiliated" wikiprojects at WikiProject Equine, please feel free to do so. Just trying to tag articles with the new templates has awakened me to the fact that there are over 1000 equine articles in Wikipedia! (My watchlist alone is now at something like 700+) There's much to do and plenty for everyone! Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Also consider joining Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse breeds. There are a TON of warmblood "breed" (or whatever) articles in desperate need of help! Montanabw (talk) 09:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
My reply: First off, you did a really nice job on the Black horse article. And I am thrilled that you are back, because you have a lot of knowledge and access to some source materials that the rest of us can only dream about! But of course, I must argue with you a little, just to keep things livel! (smile)
I took out the phrase "no spotting patterns" in the genetics section because white markings (be it a snip, leopard complex blanket, or sabino-white) don't make a horse not black, and I think this is important to stress in an encyclopedic article.
Next, here are the three sources I am using to back my responses on the coat dilution issues: http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php (The coat color test page at UCD) http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7703 "Blue's Clues" http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9686 "The Genetics of Champagne Coloring"
[1] Approve Black Gold with "teal eyes" at birth.
Buckskin and palomino foals often have blue eyes at birth.
[2] MEMC Ladyhawke "If you look closely you can see the bluish eyes that many cream dilute foals are born with."
[3] Concealed Gold shows the orangish ear tufts and blue eyes. "This foal, like many dilutes, has blue eyes at birth that will later darken."
On my "to do" list are to clean up the cream article
and give more colors their own articles.
I really want to make the palomino and buckskin articles about the colors, moving the "breed registry" info to its own section.
I'd also like to modify the white markings article to make it more clear that there's not really much difference between a snip and tobiano...that it's all just white markings.
Couldn't resist a new header with a goofy title! How about for now we just settle the champagne/barlink/cream difference of opinion by qualifying statements about blue-eyed single dilute cream foals with lots of "might" "sometimes are said to" "possibly" and "maybe" with fact tags (Sure, someone will probably scream WP:WEASEL, but I'll take the heat for that) and just wait until we find more sources one way of the other? Right now we basically have farm sites as sources, which are kind of iffy, and UCD isn't specific enough on theirs to be definitive one way or the other (maybe one of us should call them and see if they can clear any of this up -- preferably with a recommendation for a verifiable source we could use on wiki. Wonder if there is a treatise on horse coat color genetics newer than 2005 or so??) FYI, we put up Thoroughbred for WP:FA. Ealdgyth and DanaBoomer did most of the heavy lifting, so if you want to lend any support for the effort, see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thoroughbred or the talk page of the article. Montanabw (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
There was a very good article in Equus in fall of 2011 or 2012 that covered color genetics. You may be able to bring it up on their website. White Arabian mare ( talk) 14:57, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
[4] You need to check that out. It illustrates what I was talking about. It doesn't show the basepairs, but rather the amino acid translation (which is 1/3 the length). If I'm reading the article right, tobiano is in there too, but instead of being a simple booboo in the nucleotide code, a mess up downstream of KIT causes the KIT gene to be read backwards. (Correcting myself: it turns a big chunk of the chromosome around!) Or something. Enjoy! :) Countercanter ( talk) 03:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Saw your work at gray, but let's collaborate there a bit. When I did the big rewrite on it (about two years ago when I was a less experienced editor), it was a worse mess than now and I put a lot of time into cleanup, trying to keep the best of what earlier editors had there. (OK, so maybe its a mess, and now that my widdle fweelwings were bruised, we are even for all my ruthless edits on your stuff! LOL!) Anyway, my original intent with the photos was to show the variations in gray in a progressive fashion from youth to the older, flea-bitten stuff (really have to take another photo of that flea-bitten mare, she's even MORE flea-bitten now!). I liked a lot of what you did, but I tweaked some stuff. Also, in all honesty, you are the first person who I have ever heard call gray a "pattern." Seems a little close to WP:OR to me -- depigmentation, yeah, but pattern? Anyway, I left the term in the article, but moved it down to a genetics summary in the lead and you can go into more detail in the genetics section (and go for it there, that section is very light and definitely needs improvement).
I'd like you to look over overo and cropout. Sabino I have figured out in my head (at least that its not overo, even if the APHA once thought it was), but the genetics of frame and splash overo are driving me mad -- some sources say they are dominant, but others say they are recessive, and there is also a theory that as many as 11 genes make up overo -- and if overo is in any way dominant, it sure isn't dominant in the same manner as Tobiano. Also, there is lethal white syndrome, which, according to some chat boards, people are now calling the "frame overo test" -- yet the Paint people claim some overos don't carry the LWS allele. (But if they are DELIBERATELY breeding overos knowing there is a lethal in there? Horrors!) Anyway, you want a mess, there's a dandy. The genetics on overo made me rip out hair and I still can't figure it out. (Oh yeah, and then there is the splash overo link to deafness if you want to have more fun!). And how in the he## did Overo wind up in Thoroughbreds? Overo is linked to Spanish lines and does not, to my knowledge, appear in English TB pedigrees, just US ones. Someone sneak in a Quarter horse and not admit it???
As for other "messes," we will have to come to some sort of an understanding on markings and spotting patterns. I'm not at all convinced that a star or a blaze has anything to do genetically with a pinto, so do help sort out the confusion (maybe we could add a genetics section at the bottom of the horse markings article to discuss the current state of the science-- or, by "we" I guess I mean "you" LOL!) You know there are a gob of these articles, I think there are links to all in the horse color template that we are trying to put at the bottom of all the color articles...
Now, onto stuff that needs your look-see and maybe the proverbial ripping into. Champagne gene has been written mostly by other editors, none consistent, and I go over there and do cleanup of what's there, but haven't gone over a lot of stuff that probably needs to be looked at. I did write pearl gene in its entirety, and I wouldn't mind you taking a glance at that (opportunity for revenge after how much I mess with your edits (grin))-- I don't have the access to the good scientific sources you have, so was winging it off UC Davis and various color aficionado sites.
I hope we have enough cross-linking between the smoky black article and the smoky black and smoky cream articles...I think I merged the original smoky black that you redirected into the joint article, but my only real concern is that somewhere people can find out how a smoky cream is a double dilution cream...thought about smoky cream as a separate article, the problem is there is only about one paragraph to say about it, hence the article covering both. Should/could we merge your longer smoky black article into the joint article, or shall they stay split?
Anyway, all for now. I'll watchlist your talk page if you want to answer here, or you can answer on mine. Either is fine. But maybe keep the threads together, either way? Montanabw (talk) 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Enjoy the following:
[8] Abstract of an article I do not have access to yet. It explains that the process of domestication will continuously bring new white marking genes into the mix. The other notable part of this paper is that genes for white markings have been mapped to...drumroll...you tell me ;)
[9] The first conclusion from above is supported by older research in silver foxes: when selected for docile personalities, NEW, UNEXPECTED appearances of white markings cropped up WITHIN 10 generations. That is TREMENDOUS. See examples on this website.
This also describes it well, particularly "Selection and Development." Note the sentence "Later my colleague Lyudmila Prasolova and I discovered that the Star gene affects the migration rate of melanoblasts..." ah, like...? (OK it spamblocked the link...)
[10] Allelic heterogeneity = different alleles, same gene, "same" pattern.
Protein sentences: just read the captions. It shows the human, mouse, and horse sentences lined up parallel and points out where on the gene the different dominant white mutations occur. Sabino and tobiano are left out.
Gah. Okay. I am RACKING my brains to think of another way to explain this. Here, look...
[11] Dominant white mouse. KitW-v
[12] Dominant white mouse. KitW-v
[13] Dominant white mouse. KitW-42J
[14] Dominant white mouse. KitW-57J
[15] Dominant white Franches-Montagnes horse, descendant of CIGALE.
[16] Same guy at age 4. Dominant white.
[17] Dominant white Franches-Montagnes mare.
[18] Dominant white Camarillo White Horse, descendant of SULTAN.
[19] Dominant white Thoroughbred stallion. They do not identify the family but refer to a 1946 stallion as originator of THIS strain of white.
[20] Dominant white Arabian.
Ok. What does dominant white really mean? I get the feeling it has developed this aura of "only one mutation" but the article explicitly states that MANY, SEPARATE mutations at different points on the same gene produce dominant white. Dominant white, like "sabino" and "overo" before it, has the unfortunate role of being a catchbin. *All* that dominant white means is a dominantly-inherited white-spotting gene. It need not be spots of a certain size or shape. It may mean spot on the forehead, spot on the foot, or one giant spot that covers the whole body. We have given several dominant white conditions their own names because they are easily identifiable: tobiano, sabino, etc. Mouse dominant white conditions include gsf spotted coat 1, gsf spotted coat 5, spotted sterile male, dominant spotting 17 Jackson (after the lab), dominant spotting 18 Jackson, dominant spotting 19 Harwell, dominant spotting 1 Baojin, dominant spotting 20 Jackson, dominant spotting 24 Jackson, 27 Harwell, 28 Harwell, 2 Baojin, viable dominant spotting 2 Bruce Beutler (aka Pretty2), 2 Jackson, 34 Jackson, white anemic deaf sterile, sash, Strong's dominant spotting, dominant spotting rio, panda white...jeez do I have to go on? The biggest number I found was 83. All of these genes are on Kit and produce dominant spotting: blazes, white tail tips, belly spots, rump spots, mostly-white animals with dark eyes, etc. Looking at the dominant white horses above, how would you take YOUR definition of sabino and use it to make a meaningful distinction between what you call "sabino-white" versus "dominant white"?
I do not explain this for the benefit of Wikipedia, by the way. So this doesn't need to be elucidated in an article.
No Arabian has tested positive for sabino. They are not sabino-white, unless by "sabino white" you mean sabino-CATCHBIN-white which is just another way of saying dominantly-inherited-as-yet-unnamed/unidentified-white-spotting-gene, dominant white.
All for now, much to do, scary how much. Montanabw (talk) 01:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Sultan born in 1912, ancestor of the Camarillo White Horses. Cigale born in 1957 ancestor of the white Franches-Montagnes. Plus all the dominant white TBs and Arabians that you're probably familiar with.
What I am saying is that Kit mutations are common as far as viable mutations go, so even if TBs didn't have white markings that extended past the knees and hocks, they would inevitably develop them. Studies on the Franches-Montagnes horses show that no matter how hard breeders try to select for solid horses, the nature of domestication will thwart them. Mesaoud undoubtedly had his own type of dominant white spotting mutation that he passed on. Okay. I need to sleep. I know I sound flustered. I'm more excited and trying to share with you something I feel strongly enough about to spend another 6-8 years in school for. PS I am a big Arabian fan and keep very up-to-date on my horsey news so I am aware of the many different families of white Arabians and TBs and such :)
Countercanter (
talk)
05:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
You suggest that only the mutation in the Camarillo White Horses represents dominant white and we ought to call the rest sabino. Let's clarify and set up some rules for terminology. First off, let's use sabino to describe actual sabino. True sabino. Sabino proper. Everything else can just be white markings, or better yet, a white pattern. A star is still a pattern.
The most recent study on dominant white - Allelic Heterogeneity... - describes dominant whites as: dominantly-inherited, on the "W" locus (KIT gene), eyes are normal, "expressivity can range from ~50% depigmented areas up to a nearly completely white coat." This matches the definition of dominant white in other animals, namely pigs and mice. We should follow convention in an effort to be accurate.
Point #1. Franches-Montagnes = sabino? No. These horses do not test positive for sabino. So far only Walkers and MFTs have Sabino1. I'm not sure if Paints do. I've seen a Mustang that did test positive.
Point #2. Franches-Montagnes = gray? No. Owners of rabicanos and other extensive white markings describe patches that grow, too.
Point #3. Franches-Montagnes do not represent dominant white. Untrue. They are a classic model of dominant white. Mau's 2004 Dominant White study was about the white FMs.
Point #4. One parent must be white to classify a foal as dominant white. Sort of. The term dominant does mean that a trait IS expressed in the parent. The claim that a white foal isn't dominant white if a parent wasn't dominant white is based on misunderstanding. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? These spontaneous mutations occur with *relatively* high frequency. That means that the rate of their OCCURANCE is greater than in the wild, regardless of selection. Our selection for temperament affects this rate; that is the "groundbreaking" part of the silver fox studies. Furthermore, such a definition doesn't take into account things like gene interaction: the sum of tobiano + frame is a horse with more white than a tobiano or a frame. This is true for other patterns as well.
Point #5. Dominant white must be lethal. Why? According to whom? Those who wrote the original studies, which were based on CWHs and FMs, made the observation that the trait appeared HZ-lethal. This was supported by similar discoveries in mice. However, let us not forget "viable dominant white" mice. This is not a criterion, but an observation.
Point #6. Dominant white horses have no colored skin/hair. Patently 100% untrue. You cite the CWHs as classic dominant white. All CWHs have the same mutation, but compare all of these CWH foals: [21] At least two have very visible distribution of pigmented hair on the topline. The others likely do as well but the photos are less clear. I remember the breeder of a dominant white TB stallion admitting that to obtain APHA papers, a small patch of pigmented skin had to be found, and was. Why this variability of expression? The 2007 study explains that cell workings have a method of pruning out "broken" proteins if they catch them called Nonsense mediated decay. Since these heterozygotes have a functional copy of their KIT protein, NMD may be clearing out enough broken protein to allow some pigment to form. The efficacy of this process varies; so does the amount of pigmented skin and hair.
Point #7. Arabians do not have dominant white. Yes, they do. It is not the same as the Clydesdale pattern.
Point #8. Human error most likely caused the appearance of white TBs, because mutations are rare. There are several things to point out here. What has been found is not that white markings occur and are selected for, rather than against like in the wild, but that they show up more often and continuously crop up at a higher rate than they do in the wild, even before an animal would be subject to predation. The genes that are involved in determining brain wiring are involved in pigmentation. Furthermore, none of the Paints tested in 2007 for those KIT mutations had them. We can use genetics to determine when a mutation occured. This one family of white TBs is perfect. They have a gene; other white TBs from other families do not, nor do non-white related TBs, nor do Arabians white or non-white. That suggests that the gene popped up after the two populations were separated.
In summary, let me suggest that we use the following terms:
Let's see how far this gets us in our discussion. Countercanter ( talk) 15:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
06.09.08: removed old discussions.
To Do: Contribute to Babolna stud.
Draft breeds: Oberlander Horse, Rhenish-German Cold-Blood.
Anglo-Arabian breeds: Pleven (horse), Kisber Felver, Anglo-Arabian, Gidran
Riding Horse breeds: Kinsky horse, Czech warm blood, German Warmblood, Hungarian Warmblood
Colors: Pearl gene, Black (horse), Chestnut (horse), Equine coat color, Cream gene, Cremello, Champagne gene, Dilution gene, Dun gene, Splash white, Lethal White Syndrome, Color breed, Tobiano, Overo, Sabino horse, Leopard (pattern), Cropout, Smoky black and smoky cream
Others: Collection (horse), Lead change, Canter, Impulsion
Countercanter ( talk) 11:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I have heard complaints that UCD's stuff is outdated before (They took down their "New Genetics of Overo," which was from the 90's, but it's still out there elsewhere, and the Appaloosa article dates to the 80's, I think). But it's published and on the web. Trouble is, a lot of newer stuff is in hardcopy or not yet published in scholarly journals (what's the lag time, like six months to a year for peer reviewed journals?? I know a guy whose article was finished, submitted and he literally DIED before it finally hit print!) and is sort of summarized at best in half-accurate fashions on blogs and chat boards. (whining). I know the gang at UCD are kind of hot on the tail of the dilution genes at the moment more than anything related to spots. (Or genetic lethals, for that matter, which is my thing, and I have had dealings with them on this directly, AND dealt with some less-than-organized people...grrr...feel free to email me if you want the whole tale of woe!) Cornell pretty much beat them to the HERDA test, I think, though they graciously shared credit.
But griping about the shortcomings of UCD aside, the problem is that we need verifiable sources on Wikipedia (per WP:CITE and WP:V), especially given horse poliltics (particularly on lethal whites in whatever fashion) and so we need published stuff, ideally stuff that can be verified by other users without racking up fees of $30 per article (sigh, grumble!) ... I am cool if there are successors to Bowling and Schoenberg (sp?) but isn't Bowling's treatise on horse genetics still one of the more recent ones? And she died in what, 2000? I'll trust you on scans of articles like the one you posted, and also trust you on direct quotes from scientific literature that may be published in hardcopy, but we need to be careful to be sure we are quoting others in proper context and not our own synthesis of research (per WP:OR). It's a PITA (pain in the A--), but the whole process of surviving not one but two GA reviews and re-verifying everything in Arabian horse to get it ready for FA is teaching me some hard lessons about wikipedia standards that has been hard on the ego, but probably good in the long run. (And I STILL hate the citation templates!) Montanabw (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
[23] More examples.
Well I *said* you had to look CLOSELY. :P Ticking is interesting. But as before, Genes Are Conserved. As you can see from the roan dog section of the article, it's proving very tricky to sort out. If you asked me for my opinion, I forecast that ticking/roan in dogs will prove very similar to the leopard complex. In dogs, ticked/roan is ONLY expressed in WHITE areas. In Lp horses, this is also the case: the big spots (in hets; homozygous Lps have liiittle spots) are found in the middle of large regions of white that are genetically controlled separately. The deafness of Dalmations isn't due to the roan/ticking, but to the parallel of maximum white. Dalmation spots, which are big and well-defined, are visible on the white areas, which happen to be all over. In cats, ticking is caused by something else entirely. It's related to agouti rather than distribution of white. Cats and mice (and dogs, I imagine) have "Chinchilla" type coats that are also I believe agouti-controlled; the hairs are pale but tipped with black. Chinchilla in mice is described as "reduces the yellow in agouti coloration, and slightly reduces the black" so is actually analogous to cream. I'm rambling. But [24] here is a SUPER awesome page on mouse markings. Ednrb = frame, btw! It beautifully shows the Dominant White complex, explaining that homozygotes for *any* of those conditions produce black-eyed-whites and seem to be lethal, but that pairing two or more different conditions can produce viable black-eyed-whites. I'm sure all this sounds familiar. BTW, have you noticed that frame and splash are associated with blue eyes, and the others are not? There is a reason for this... :) So no, I have no idea what causes rabicano. We have 3 or 4 red rabicanos at my barn...all ponies. Hoping to get photos of them stood up with our bay roan!
PS, the way to tell rabicano from dun guard hairs is that guard hairs aren't always/usually stark white. Dun and its signatures are part of the wild type condition, and since pigment's first role is to protect cells from radiation (from the sun), a wild type condition ought not contain true, unpigmented white. It might take a microscope or an NMR to tell for sure if pigment is in the hairs though. Rabicano is a depigmentation pattern; those hairs should be true white. If I recall correctly from hosing down our rabicanos, the white hairs are associated with pink skin. I will check to make sure, and take photographs at some point over the summer. The conundrum is that since rabicano is so closely linked to other white spotting patterns, can one safely chalk up pink skin to rabicano? [25] Here is an example. Black rabicano Arabian; mottled skin under rabicano roaning.
As far as white ticking that has its epicenter just aft the stifle, but also affects the base of the tail...ya got me! I'm sure that someone more familiar with developmental processes could tell us. Then again, with frame part of the confusion is that we don't automatically associate the colon and the coat! Countercanter ( talk) 12:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Whoops! An edit conflict again! I'll work your tweaks back in, give me a sec. Be out of the article in 15-20 min, then you can fix everything I screwed up! Montanabw (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Nice work on the chestnut genetics, by the way, but may need to wikilink to more of the genetics terminolgy. Anyway, totally unrelated (or maybe somewhat related) to all of the above, here's the conundrum that has been puzzling me for a few years: The depigmentation process in aging horses who have no apparent reason for it. I have an old dark bay ("Brown") mare who is 28 (Purebred Arab). (in photo, you can't see the white hairs really, the resolution is too poor, but you can see her base color. She also dapples) Her dark bay sire, who had very little white other than a big white snip on his nose, had one faint body spot that the Sabino fans claim indicates the presence of a sabino gene. Her dam was a gray. FWIW, there were six full siblings from this cross, three dark bays, two grays and a blood bay. All with very little white. My mare has had a few gray guard hairs at her throatlatch and a small white spot at the peak of her sacrum for many years (but not from birth). But starting in her early 20's, she began to have more little gray hairs every year, mostly on her upper neck, but also in her tail, on her face, etc. This year, her neck is quite noticably flecked with white hairs, and she now has faint white hairs right at the bottom of her flank, around her jaw, a few white hairs around her white spot on her spine, and a few white hairs by her elbows--but most noticable on her neck. In contrast, her 1/2 sister -- with the same sire and a bay dam -- is 25, has zero graying/roaning anywhere. So what do you think we have? Depigmentation due to age-related graying, some sort of sabino thing cropping out...? Curious... Montanabw (talk) 04:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
A no refs tag has cropped up on Swedish Warmblood. Seeing as how you are the warmblood goddess, want to take a quick run at that article, toss in a source or two? Probably no time to do the big cleanup it needs, but maybe toss in a references section at the bottom with some good places to start for later footnoting? (Like I did back when I was doing round one of the massive color article cleanup.)
If you want to do something kind of fun and light, a new article on the Budweiser Clydesdales has been created and needs expansion. The folks editing on Clydesdale didn't want much mention of the Bud team there (the laundry list thing, and favoritism, etc., not worth the hassle), but now that they have their own article, maybe there are some fun factoids out there.
Nice work on Chestnut, by the way. You might want to wikilink more of the terms, though, "nonsense mutation," etc... Montanabw (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Found ads for the horse identified as "dominant white" in that article. His owners call him Sabino. Also found the 1996 horse that is the sire, identified by his owners as a "maximum bay sabino." I never count on owners to understand color genetics, but take a look: http://mapleridgefarm.homestead.com/rkhasperfoals.html
The 1996 stallion who sired this horse is R Khasper: http://www.sabinoarabianhorseregistry.com/stallion10.html
http://mapleridgefarm.homestead.com/rkhasper.html
Though sabino in Arabians generally does not act all that dominant, this boy is throwing the white sometimes, which is probably why they are calling it "dominant" (he threw a half-arab/half-QH with it, among other things):
No indication that these guys have been tested specifically for SB-1 (they usually advertise if they have been tested...) Thoughts?? Montanabw (talk) 22:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
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Just wanted to give you a heads up that I put in a photo of a faint dorsal stripe on a bay horse in the bay (horse) article. (Photo is of my blood bay mare, the one you also put up as the lead photo...BTW sire was a bay, dam was a bay, no dun genes anywhere!) If there is anywhere else it would be helpful, use as you wish! Montanabw (talk) 05:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Just uploaded apic of a silver dapple mini that shows really nice dappleing. not sure where you would want it on the page. i also currently have a weanling smokey black shetland (sire-Pal, Dam-bay) who is the color of a hersey's candy bar. Would you like me to take a pic of her and put it on the smokey page? i also have pics of dark bay roans if you need them. Firesongponies ( talk) 15:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Should have the Smokey black pic later today. Hopefully the barn will not be too dark. it's currently blizzarding so taking it out side is not currently an option. I'll also get close ups of the red tips to the main. are there any other horse colors that need pics (or better ones)? I go to a lot of expos and horse show and can work on getting good pics the up coming year. as long as ppl don't mind them being of a breed other than a QH that is. Firesongponies ( talk) 09:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
What parts of the harness do you need? i drive my ponies both in the 'Fine' style and the draft style. i only have like 8 harnesses laying around my tack room -grin- My camera is acting up so all the pics i took the other day of the smokey black have 'sun spots' even though they were taken in a barn!! -le sigh- time to get a new camera i think. Firesongponies ( talk) 19:06, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Would you peek at a weird thing on genetics someone put into Lipizzan? Whoever did the edit clearly doesn't understand the difference between a white horse and a gray one, but they cited a source, so I'd best not get snarky and toss the whole thing, tempted as I am. I think really all that needs to be said is that Lipizzans are gray, wikilink to the gray, add the article (if relevant) to the gray horse section, and call it good. However, maybe Lipizzans have some weird form of gray? I seriously doubt it, but...anyway. (One of my minor ongoing aggravations is dealing with people who don't get that most "white" horses are grays...sigh, grumble, grumble...) Montanabw (talk) 06:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Interesting article on the gray gene in horses. Have you seen this? http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12468&nID=43&src=RA Maybe you already knew all this, I didn't, very cool info -- though recently just reverted a bunch of links to a commercial company who is apparently already marketing a color test. Sigh. May add some of the material into gray (horse) if I get around to it, maybe watchlist the article and check over my work (your turn to edit me, eh??) Not being a geneticist, I may put something wrong or nuance it improperly in my attempt to write in plain English. Montanabw (talk) 03:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello, all --
I realize that this is a distasteful subject to many in the horse field, especially among those with a love of show jumpers, but the John Edwards and Rielle Hunter affair currently in the news has opened up many, many questions on the subject of the late 20th century horse murders scandal. The reason for that, in case you don't know, is that Rielle Hunter was formerly Lisa Druck, whose father, James Druck, conspired to have her beloved show jumper Henry the Hawk electrocuted to collect the insurance money on him. This tragedy formed the background for a 1988 novel based on Lisa Druck's life, called Story of my Life by Jay McInerney. Later, in the early to mid 1990s, the actual horse killing scandal was exposed to the public through articles in the New York Times and Sports Illustrated, and then through a full-length book called "Hot Blood." An FBI investigation into the horse murders led to the conviction of a number of highly placed people in the show jumper and general equestrian sports world on charges of insurance fraud.
When Rielle Hunter's background was probed, due to her affair with John Edwards, it turned out that she and her horse were prominent victims of the horse murder insurance scam, and her own father was one of the orchestrators of the criminal activities. But in trying to link this information up to her bio article, it turned up that there wss no article on the subject of the horse murders at Wikipedia, doubtless because the scandal occured before the development of the world wide web. An article was just created today, but it is not comprehensive in scope and needs to be expanded greatly lest it be deleted. There is an article on the murder of the millionairess Helen Brach whose death, in 1977, was also connected to the horse murders scandal, and it too could use improvement.
I am looking for a few good editors who have the brackground to write the horse murders article, and to link it to the Helen Brach murder, show jumping, and Rielle Hunter articles. No need to reply to me -- if you are interested, you know what to do. I will try to help, also, as best i can, but the topic is far from my usual field of writing, and i would prefer to see it handled by those with the greatest depth of knowledge on the subject.
If you need sources to cite, you can find the best of them at the Rielle Hunter page in the section on her early life and family. Here are two more:
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8173FF936A3575AC0A965958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, On Killing Horses for Money: A Craftsman's Dirty Secrets, by Don Terry, Published: September 5, 1993]]
[[ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5DF1639F933A05753C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all New York Times, Horse Show; Equestrians Facing Competition and Lingering Scandal, by Robin Finn, Published: October 30, 1995]]
I am posting this identical request to a number of horse-related talk pages, so you may see it more than once, for which i apologize in advance.
Sincerely, catherine yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 02:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ChampagneHorse.JPG The image and one like it were successfully inserted into champagne gene. User:Kersti Nebelsiek seems to be a master at getting photos from scientific articles to pass muster in Commons as free images. Maybe you can figure out if she has any special magic other than finding free sources that you/me/we can use to find an LWS image...I'm sort of tied up in real life right now, plus have the GA for horse to take my focus at the moment (feel free to weigh in there if you want to, though) so other than wordsmithing, I'm not going to be a lot of help... Montanabw (talk) 23:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
CC, can you add any info on the warmblood branding regulations in the USA or in Europe to Livestock_branding#Horse_branding_regulations? Much appreciated if you can. Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 03:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
You wrote " I'm sleepy; I just finished the last book in that atrociously trashy, thoroughly enjoyable teenage vampire romance series." (grin) If you liked those and think werewolves may also be cool, you may want to check out Patricia Briggs (who, by the way, also happens to be a horse person like us!) Montanabw (talk) 20:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Great work on Leopard complex. This barnstar's for you! Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
Hey Countecanter, There is a high school student who did an upgrade of Banker Horse for a class project, collaborating with other wikipedia editors (like me). It is now listed at Peer review and because apparently the entire class flooded PR with about 20 simultaneous requests, they asked if WikiProject Equine would help review this particular article. Myself, Ealdgyth and (I think Dana) all weighed in on the process so are sort of COI on doing a neutral review, so I'm asking some of the other horse article editors if they'd like to take a look-see at the article and comment at the peer review page. This was a great kid to work with and a neat thing for a school to do as an assignment. You have done so much on the horse breed articles, you may have a lot to offer here on a peer review. So if you can help out, Thanks in advance! Montanabw (talk) 20:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Just stopping in to say thanks for such an extensive peer review on the Banker horse article. I highly doubt that it was "fun" read and I am sure that some of my errors probably made you cringe... So thanks for plowing through it! I appreciate all of your efforts and insights. Cheers! -- Yohmom ( talk) 20:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey CC, check out this discussion: Talk:Horse_markings#Yellow_eyes What do you think we have here? These are really unusual! Montanabw (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
If you want a dandy example of a bleached out, but DNA tested homozygous black, note this pic. Purebred Arab, tested at UC Davis, definitely no cream gene. (Sire was black, dam was a bay visually so dark I thought she was black, but dam was tested and carried agouti) I took the photo in early spring, her winter coat was on the verge of shedding, so all dry and yucky. She was a long 2 year old at the time. I have since solved the bleaching problem by feeding her a flaxseed/rice bran supplement. (Now I have to figure out how to solve the "Goodyear blimp" problem! LOL!) Oh, also note the light hairs inside the ears. Montanabw (talk) 08:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Saw your congrats to Yohmom. Seriously, CC, I really think YOU should take an article through the GA gauntlet. Basically, all you have to do is be able to endure tons of nitpicking-- some legitimate -- from a bunch of non-horse editors! LOL! I think that either Lethal White Syndrome or one of your better warmblood breed articles could go GA without much trouble. (In a perfect world, we'd have a photo of a LWS foal to add there. Seems like I saw one somewhere? Did you add it or did Kersti N??)Dana got both Haflinger and Suffolk Punch there almost entirely by herself, (as I originally did with both Equine nutrition and Arabian horse). Ealdgyth and Dana do a lot of GA/FA review now and both could give you some comments in a kind and not-as-ego-deflating a manner as the great wiki-public, or you could independently request a peer review and see what comes up there. Basically, you need to be able to log on daily for a week or so to address any comments that come up, but your work is good and after putting up with my nitpicks and hissy fits, no one on GA review is apt to be any more difficult to deal with than I! LOL! Go for it! Montanabw (talk) 03:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi. Navigation among the many horse breed articles is being discussed now on Template talk:Equine. -- Una Smith ( talk) 18:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
That really nice photo of the trotting, buckskin Akhal-Teke got tossed for a copyright problem. We need to replace it in a few of the articles. I don't have the time to go dig, can you? Montanabw (talk) 02:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I found another "real" warmblood breed that didn't have an article, so I made a quick stub: Furioso-North Star. See also Furioso (disambiguation). Sort of stumbled across it by accident, but you are the warmblood guru, so letting you know it's there if you want to tweak it any. Montanabw (talk) 08:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
CC-- Can you also watchlist Equine coat color and check my recent edits? I am trying to clean it up and yet keep it really, really simple. I undoubtably did not put something correctly there, so your eyeballs and comments (or edits) would be much appreciated. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 02:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Yet another: Isabelline (colour). Another editor is doing some cleanup there. S/he was trying to explain to me that, at least in birds, "Isabellinism" is a form of leucism, which I don't think is what is going on with cream dilution??? Anyway, take a peek and see if anything needs a tweak. My understanding is that "Isabelline" isn't even a word reallyused by English speakers to describe palominos and cremellos (I seem to see it in German wiki...?) But anyway, you know I am a little fuzzy on the details of all the pigmentation and depigmentation stuff and I need you to sort it all out -- my head is stll exploding over the concept that chestnut is a form of albinism, except that albinism is an outmoded concept... %-) Montanabw (talk) 02:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Wizardman 20:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Montanabw has bought you a pint! Sharing a pint is a great way to bond with other editors after a day of hard work. Spread the WikiLove by buying someone else a pint, whether it be someone with whom you have collaborated or had disagreements. Cheers!
Congrats! You done good! This was probably the smoothest GA I have ever had the privilege to observe. Luckily, we had good pre-GA review and then the actual GA worked on by an experienced reviewer, and that helped a lot to avoid the stupid questions (like "can't you say 'castrated male' instead of 'gelding'?"! that I have had hit me in some reviews. Pat yourself on the back, and have some champagne! Montanabw (talk) 04:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
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The Fauna Barnstar | |
To countercanter, well done for bringing dominant white to Good Article status. Cheers, Casliber ( talk · contribs) 21:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC) |
Hey CC, I like the new roan article, in fact GREAT JOB! However, some administrative cleanup is needed. 1. Let's remove duplicative material from roan (color), replace with a summary and add a "Main" tag to direct to the new article. 2. And this is VERY important, see all the horse articles where we link to roan (color). Special:WhatLinksHere/Roan_(color) All of the horse ones now need to be changed to Roan (horse). Yeah, I know, it's a big PITA, but as they say, the job isn't finished until the paperwork is done. I'll drop a note at WPEQ talk page to see if I can round up some extra hands for the redirect job. Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
CC, would you take a peek at the "Genetics" section of Appaloosa? We ("we" meaning mostly Dana boomer with me doing my usual cranky interfering...) are cleaning it up for a possible FA run (gluttons for punishment that we are) and I'd like to be sure that section is solid (it already has a link to the leopard complex article, so our section is just a summary) While I can swipe your best stuff from leopard complex, I'd rather have your eyes live and in person on this. Comments and suggestions welcome, and in fact, if you wanted to comment on the overall article in general, we'd be glad to hear your thoughts. Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Seal brown (horse) may need your input. Montanabw (talk) 20:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
People "feel strongly" about Albinism because the article is a very frequent vandalism target, and is also frequently edited by good-faith editors who don't actually know what they are talking about. A well-read, serious editor like yourself should not avoid editing it, especially just to add a link. I've linked the first occurrence of "amelanism", in the lead, to your new[ish] article. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Say now that you're back, trot over to the WP Equine talk page, we are kicking around two things of interest to you; one is Pitke's idea of an infobox for the horse coat colors (which I am intrigued by, but no time to help on it much); the other, Ealdgyth's idea that we try to get a "Wikiproject" triple crown by having five editors earn the "triple crown" of WP achievement (A GA, an FA and a DYK). She and I have it, and you are almost there -- you got two of the three with dominant white, and Dana also qualifies if she will not be shy and get nominated, and Cgoodwin also has two out of three. We are sooo close and it would be fun... Montanabw (talk) 06:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
In your warmblood research, ever come across a breed called the "Fürstenbergian"? Has popped up in Pitke's research on the Finnhorse article. S/He's doing a really good job there, too. I am quite pleased. By the way, we don't have an article on the flaxen thing in chestnuts. Do you have enough info to create one? Montanabw (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
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Happy Holidays | |
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC) |
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