I'm sure you're dropping by because I have annoyed you elsewhere in Wiki correcting some illiteracy or another in relationship with the MENA region and associated subjects. Before complaining take a breath, as frankly I don't really care.
Now, otherwise, if you need to know more about me, here is what I am willing to tell you.
Otherwise, any comments, abuse or whatever, feel free.
Collier Lounsbury
Welcome!
Hello Collounsbury, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your contributions on Tuareg. If you make your citations explicit (see Abraham Goldfaden, Ramon Casas i Carbó, or Antoni Gaudí for examples of how to do this; I happen to think the Gaudí example is best), it becomes much easier for other people to "defend" your accurate information against less knowledgable future edits. If you don't do that, it's very hard for anyone to choose between two uncited claims. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Greetings sir. I just wanted to let you know that I worked under a US agency in Tirana, Albania and I have no vested interest in pushing "POV". I can tell you that religion in Albania (much like the rest of europe) is largely symbolical and that is is not widely practised. The government is largely pro-American, does not endorse any religion and that muslims compromise only a small minority. Patterns 12:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what you did exactly write in the discussion page as you didn't sign your comment, but you seem to know a bit about this subject. The information about Haratin is very scarse in Morocco, and this subject certainly needs to be better studied. I would tend to say, go ahead and make the contributions you feel are sensible, cheers -- Khalid hassani 18:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Here is a vote related to Western Sahara, let's hear your voice :). Daryou 07:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Per Talk:North Africa
Huh? What does this mean? - Justin (koavf), talk 01:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, buddy I hope you are well! I am new to wikipedia and I have updated the North Africa page to reflect the current definition of the U.S and U.N of North Africa which include Sudan. There is someone who clearly is removing it on purpose. can you help with that. ===>Wha? I'm not sure that I actually understand what you are writing. In what way are they "overdone"? The situation in Western Sahara has resulted in one of the top ten hugest refugee situations in the world for over thirty years; that's big stuff. It's certainly not simplistic. The following sentence is totally unintelligible:
Do you care to explain exactly what this is supposed to mean? - Justin (koavf), talk 02:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Whatever. How is Western Sahara a "molehill"? We're talking about the sustained human suffering of hundreds of thousands of people over four decades. I also don't see how it became less important as time wore on - tell that to the people in the camps. I got my information for the largeness of the refugee population from the 2005 Time Almanac, p. 713, who got their info from the U.S. Committee on Refugees. There are fourteen conflicts/regions with higher numbers, of which half have estimates that "vary considerably." It's impossible to give a precise number of refugees for many of these conflicts, but the Sahara is certainly around the 12th largest or so. And in terms of percentage of the population that became refugees, it is definitely among the highest three or four (compare with Sudan, or DR Congo.) - Justin (koavf), talk 02:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Wha? There are over 100,000 Sahrawis in the camps right now, so I certainly don't see how you can make that claim in good faith. Also, how do you know how many Sahrawis I know? What is this "kid" stuff? There's no reason for this kind of derogatory language. I'm trying to be respectful, and you're the one simultaneously talking down to me, swearing, and asking me to ask like an adult. There's no excuse to be rude. If you think that the conflict is a molehill, I don't see why you've chosen to professionally study and report on it. If you want, take a while to respond, when emotions are not so high, and I'll be happy to hear what kind of sources you have for saying that there are less than 100,000 Sahrawis. - Justin (koavf), talk 03:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- not that USCR is known low-balling refugee numbers, the contrary. As to your knowledge of Sahraouine, well, it shows. Typical just learned about a cause exitement. And, again, WS is a molehill: the territory itself is of little economic value, and completely unable to sustain the current population sans massive external subsidies. The entire thing would go away if the Algerian Generals did not find it a useful way to put political pressure on Morocco. But of course that's not as romantic as the party political agitprop spun.( Collounsbury 03:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
===>I'm guessing you aren't a native speaker? "Typical just learned about a cause exitement." Isn't an actual sentence. If you're implying that I just learned about the Sahara and I'm excited, so what? I didn't just learn about it, but who cares if I'm excited? Is there something wrong with that? Polisario existed prior to Algerian involvement, and the SADR wasn't initially recognized by Algeria, so if you're trying to perpetuate the preposterous myth that this is some anti-Moroccan plot by Algeria, you're certainly not going to convince me. - Justin (koavf), talk 03:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the note Collounsbury. Appreciation is mutual. I also find the WS theme in Wikipedia way overinflated relatively to the real situation on the ground. Wikipedia is definitely going to be a target for everyone with an agenda given the huge audience it has. I really think it should make a change in its introduction. It should insist more on that aspect so it isn't mistaken for a neutral authoritative source.
On another theme, I saw somewhere that you had some health issue. I hope I'm wrong, but if it's the case, my most sincere wishes for a good and speedy recovery.
--
Yobaranut 03:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Not at all mate, my pleasure. There is clearly rather a lot of naive axe grinding going on in re Western Sahara. And yes, on my blog (aqoul.com, a group blog actually) you probably saw that. I have cancer. Nasty thing, but I ain't dead yet. Has sent me into medical exile though. ( collounsbury 03:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
Now I've read your litanies on this i/e-affair affair in I think five different places. Better do something about it. What do you say we try to move the ancient Romano-Berber Mauretania to Mauritania (kingdom), and convert the page Mauretania into a redirect for modern-day Mauritania? Then we can get rid of the spelling thing.
Also, get well. Arre 03:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Some recent changes to the Moors article look like they go against the grain of mainstream scholarship. There really are so many individuals who vandalize this article, which is why it should be well-trafficked by authorities on the subject. -- Jugbo 22:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Collounsbury. Your remarks above about the overinflated WS articles and the user Koavf who infested Wikipedia with pro-polisario propaganda are true and the community get fed up with it: he is indefinitely blocked. Morocco and WS articles are now better, but the level of repetitive and un-enyclopedic "material" he and his likes have added is everywhere. Thanks for pointing it out, and congratulations for the recovery. -- A Jalil 22:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
What do you make of this quote by professor J. Phillipe Rushton:
“ Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the " Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position [1] ”
Notice how he defines Zanj as Negroid tribes South of the Sahara yet at the same time defines them as separate from the Ethiopians. Are we to conclude that the Ethiopians were not considered zanj because they are hybridized (Arabized) blacks. Cavalli-Sforza, says this about Ethiopians on pg 199 of The Great Human Diasporas:
The Ethiopians compromise a number of different ethnic groups and have many more languages. They are one of the forty-two genetic groups emerging from the fifteen hundred populations studied, and are classified as African, genetically speaking, even if a closer look reveals that they are special Africans with a high level of genes of caucasoid (white) origin. In fact we can call them an admixture of African and west Asian (Arab) genes. The two groups contribute respectively about 60 percent and 40 percent of their genes. But linguistically speaking, they are closer to the Arabs, because they generally speak languages from a family (Afro-Asiatic) covering northern Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East.
The mixed genetic makeup and use of Afro-Asiatic languages reflect the history of the Ethiopians, who for a long time had close contacts with the Arabs. In and around the earliest Christian times, there was an empire that took in both regions. Its capital was first at Saba (Sheba) in Arabia and later at Axum, in Africa. According to Ethiopian tradition, Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, visited King Solomon and had by him a son, Menelek, founder of the Ethiopian dynasty, which has only recently been overthrown. The Bible tells of these events. Christmasgirl
Hi Note that the Spanish Sahara was, in fact, annexed into the Spanish Empire, and that the protectorate(s) were a product of Spanish colonialism - weren't they? Needless to say, you proved yourself to be as rude and inflammatory as I recalled, and I would appreciate it if you weren't as pedantic to me; try "writing like an adult, mate." And "intifada" means "uprising;" while you are correct that I have far less of a grasp of Arabic than you do, that's ultimately irrelevant to the point that I was making. As proof of that position, you didn't actually offer any counter-argument, just some slander. The intifadas are related to the Sahara conflict, and as such, they should be on the template, right? And what "real experience" do you require of me? You want me to colonize parts of Africa? Start an intifada? What do you want, exactly? - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 00:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello Collounsbury, I have commented on the talk pages of certain articles that deal with the region historically know as North Africa, that is, Southern Mediterranean regions. I don't know where you're from, but I take it you are not from the region. After reading your page here, I understand your over-exuberance in dealing with my edits. You are obviously not interested in impartial, factual truth. You base your ideas on a single study, that used under 150 subjects, perhaps far less, from a traditionally sub-saharan region, that is, mauritania, and southern morocco, a country whose demographics have sadly been impacted by an illegal influx of sub-saharan africans. This study, minuscule in scope, cannot be applied to the VAST region that is the Southern Med/North Africa! Most of the populations of these different countries have no contact with each other, do not even understand each other's dialect, even in the case of Tunisia and Algeria! (neighbors) and so, it should be obvious even to you, that your edits are partial, inaccurate and highly objectionable. As I am sure you are aware, there are certain eccentric and rather deluded peeople out there who wish to appropriate certain cultures, and I believe as the region is mainly francophone, these eccentrics have succeeded, to a certain extent, in spreading their lies and fables. It is, however, improper to abuse wikipedia's editing system in furthering these fictions. And while you may be able, only temporarily, to remove the Southern Mediterranean's Arab identity from these pages as you appear to be a committed assualter, it continues to prosper in the real world and I will do my best to counter your efforts by urging other more patient souls to help me with this, as I have frankly no patience. Despite our differences, I am very appreciative of your comments, and I urge you to make more efforts to better inform yourself of this region's veritable, and not fictional, identity. Imposing your easily refutable fictional beliefs on others is not in keeping with wikipedian pillars. Remember, this is supposed to be a neutral, objective and encyclopedic source.I have cited encyclopedic sources and urge you again not to revert the articles back to their older, muddled versions. Mariam83 06:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hey man, I'm wondering if you know anything about the Berber language? I'll leave it that ambiguous for the time being. Msheflin ( talk) 18:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
you appear to be fictionalizing reality on these pages. for instance, in the article about North Africa, you are attempting to include central sub-saharan black countries in the definition and you are twisting facts and language around so as to establish a veritable link with sub-saharan africa which has historically not existed and which does not exist, unless you mean as I pointed out, that the slave trade is an important link? You use a map that includes central african countries, which is absurd. I did not find this map on any UN database, and if it is drawn politically, it does not stand, as we both know North africa's inclusison of even Mauritania is debatable, and when acknowledged, is based on language and not much else. THis is not the place to rewrite history, though you are actively engaged in doing this. Please be objective and reasonable. Mariam83 10:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Can you help out on the Maghrebine pages and this bizarre edit war set off by Mariam83? As I noted in comments, I don't even necessarily disagree with some (even a good many) of her edits, but the wholesale vandalistic editing with refusal to discuss at all is bloody stunning. Also rather disturbing is the editing on the African connexion angle, mate, as well as her comments on pages re 3bid, quite racialistic. Best collounsbury 14:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC).
Hi, Someome with a very simialr agenda to our dear friend has just opened an account, and started reverting back to those versions. I'm preparing a sockpuppetry case. Any thoughts? Bouha 17:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I take it you know what my objections are by now about these two pages. Namely, that contrary to what both articles authoritatively and inaccurately state, the majority of the people are not Berber. As it turns out in fact, they are not even completely Arab. Like I said before, there are all sorts of influences. I was about to edit the page and add an annotated, more scientific link as opposed to the non-annotated and rather unscientific NG one, but I don't want to engage in any drama. So, here is an excerpt: "In fact, the Tunisian genetic distances to European samples are smaller than those to North African groups. " "This could be explained by the history of the Tunisian population, reflecting the influence of the ancient Phoenician settlers of Carthage followed, among others, by Roman, Byzantine, Arab and French occupations, according to historical records. Notwithstanding, other explanations cannot be discarded, such as the relative heterogeneity within current Tunisian populations, and/or the limited sub-Saharan genetic influence in this region as compared with other North African areas, without excluding the possibility of the genetic drift, whose effect might be particularly amplified on the X chromosome."
Link: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n5/abs/5201797a.html
We could either revert back to my older version, or remove the section all together. However, the article as it stands is flawed. Please do not mention the past. Let us turn a new page. My sole interest here is that these pages become more informative. Let me know. also, you can see from this why I have a problem with the sweeping generalizations asserted on the Berber page. specifically, the word "debatable" I find particularly pov and in instance of injecting personal views. Why is the first study not debatable? Why is the second one debatable? Are they not both annotated studies? yes they are as I researched them. As to the Maghreb page, you know whihc line you changed and that too will have to be addressed. Thanks. Mariam83 15:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
You might want to look at this. -- A Jalil 13:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I did not vanadalise anything, nor was anything deleted on the Berber page. More details were provided as well as the deletion of a personal injection. Mariam83 17:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The reply that I received after complaining about your blatant refusal to allow any changes :
"Wikipedia is a "wiki", which means that everyone can edit pages. You don't need to apply or get special permission to join us. At the top of each page is an "edit" label. Try it for example at: < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox>
You don't even need to log in to edit, although creating an account gives you more options and helps you keep track of your contributions. You can create an account at: < http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup>"
You need to calm down! Have you ever visited the Kabyle region in Algeria? The Kabyles would NEVER refer to themselves as Arabs nor Berbers! The article, nonetheless, presumptuously demeans them by suggesting that the Kabyles deny their "Berber" (absurd) origins and "pretend" rather ignorantly as the article suggests, that they are Arab, presumably because of an inferiority complex, the article implies. PLEASE BE REASONABLE! CALM DOWN! And why are you so vehemently intent on distorting and misrepresenting a people that you have no relation to?! Why not edit articles about England or Britain, as you are yourself an Islander? Jesus Christ!
Mariam83 17:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly I was trying to help you by giving you information that you thought might be useful on the USFTA talk page. Calm down; you don't need to run off at the mouth and curse. Nor do you need to flout your voluminous knowledge or your personal contacts. I think that's fine and well, but it's simply rude and unnecessary. If you can't post to talk without being uncivil, just don't post to talk. Your edits would speak for themselves as useful and intelligent and not be undermined by your bad and crass attitude. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 00:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
No more hard talk guys. Collounsbury, please calm down and don't forget WP:CIV. Koavf, you should find a clear answer to your question at WP:V. He said it is on one of the US Department of State's websites (US Embassy in Tchad). With another additional simple effort you could have translated the page using an online translator. I've got this in English. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your help in response to my question about writing. As promised, here is a shiny gold coin. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 14:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Collounsbury I see you edited the caption for my photo, I wasn't trying to be POV but i can see how it can be interperted as such with the word "morrocanization", but i can assure you there is nothing POV about the phrasing "empty". I've seen ghost towns busier than these towns. We had a good old look around them only 3 weeks ago and there is no way these are occupied or about to be anytime soon. cheers Dexcel ( talk) 14:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stop it In addition to my usual requests that you 1.) act civil to me and 2.) at least refer to the talk page in a coherent fashion, and I'm letting you know that I'm posting on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. This is ridiculous. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 19:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
You are blocked for 24 hours for edit warring on Morocco ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and also for your inappropriate personalisation on the talk page. Please take this timeout to read the Five Pillars, chill some, and work out a way of working with others rather than against them. Thanks. Guy ( Help!) 21:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Mate, having a wee problem there, http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arabist&action=history as there seems to be a banned Mariam83 type obsessive who wishes to insert irrelevant ranting about perceived racism in Arabism (although the arty is about non-Arab Arabists...). As I have bollixed up the reporting and appear to be code incompetent, perhaps you can help. ( collounsbury ( talk) 15:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC))
I'm pretty sure that the issue was resolved when I added the new citations and referenced work. Your most recent comments were in effect referencing what was discussed previously before I added the actual correct cites from credible sources. In addition, I do agree that since it is a consensus in the academic world that use of the term negro is racist and in addition untrue. What's actually trying to be said is Moors aren't "black" or "negro" etc... The statement was made by someone who's background is questionable and holds little weight when held up to other works by notable scholars. When I tried to remove the statement I was told I couldn't even though it has racial overtones. So in effect I added several sources that debunk the myth because that is essentially what is is. A myth that Moors weren't "black" "negro" or whatever. It is an actual fact documented in numerous publications that Moors consisted of a very diverse group of individuals from the African Diaspora, including Ethiopian Sub-Saharan West African etc.. that converted to Islam and served within the military. The sources I added are not "Afrocentric" in nature. I did so after I was told that Ivan Van Sertima was an afrocentric author. So I used other notable credible sources to prove the statement wrong which is important to the readers. If we are going to have a false statment in an article which is actually the belief of someone, we should also correct it to alert the reader to the fact that this is the opinion of one author. I have cited several sources in addition to page numbers in accordance to Wiki guidelines. Once I did that the problem was solved. My issue is with untrue information being placed in the article stating Moors were only Arabs and Berbers when it is a fact that you can't just omit a whole group of people. -- Gnosis ( talk) 18:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)-- Gnosis ( talk) 18:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay so how would you suggest I edit content to the Moors page? Because I did it according to the way Wikipedia states and it was still removed.-- Gnosis ( talk) 03:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Please explain your statment unsupported the citations were clearly there and from non Afrocentric sources... I do not wish to engage in an edit war but the information should be included in the article. The point was not to say Moors were white or black. It talks about the debate of Moors racial makeup. All of the information are from well cited sources. In addition it is not POV because this is a historic description of the people. Please explain and let's come to some sort of mutual decision how this should be included. I'm willing to work with you to include this information in the most appropriate way.-- Gnosis ( talk) 13:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the alert. I've been away for a while, so I'm only now just reading it. Glad to see that someone else has noticed the fundamentally POV nature of many of Gnosis' edits. The trouble seems to have subsided for now; but if it ever starts up again, please let me know and I'll be glad to lend assistance in any way I can. Best, Causteau ( talk) 22:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I think one reference to one geographical location is sufficient. As the template states it is North Africa which eventually is in Africa. I think we should always be as precise as possible without excess; this applies of course when the reader can obviously find other related facts/information. So in our case, mentioning the AMU states (+Egypt, Sudan and other territories) are in North Africa implies without doubt that they are in Africa. This prevents us from flooding the article with tens of templates having the same aim but more general (saying this country is in North Africa is more precise and at the same time tells that these countries are in Africa; imagine saying Malaysia is a South East Asia and it is in Asia or Tunisia is in North Africa and it is in Africa). About Mauritania, actually the list shows the North African nations according to the UN subregion classification (as mentioned in the above statement of the template). Further more, in North Africa article, geographically speaking, North Africa includes other countries (you can take a look at the article for full listings of both classifications). Finally thanks for your interest and I am open to any suggestions. Bestofmed ( talk) 18:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC).
Please do not forget to notify involved editors when starting an AN/I thread, as not doing so is generally considered to be quite rude. Regards, — neuro (talk) 11:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Rather than continue 'warring' over the article, here is my reasoning. Arabic is not spoken in Malta. The Maltese language is spoken in Malta. The Maltese language is a genetic descendant of Arabic, specifically Siculo-Arabic, a dialect (read 'variety') of Arabic that has been extinct for more than 1,000 years. This should be reflected in the inclusion of Malta as a place where 'Arabic' is spoken because, unlike all the other countries listed, Arabic is, quite simply, not spoken in Malta. If there are further difficulties, hopefully they can be sorted out. the roof of this court is too high to be yours ( talk) 14:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
See this one you did [2] and mine just now: [3] dougweller ( talk) 21:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi! You might be interested in the discussion at Talk:Moors#The_facts. Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 14:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC) The Ogre ( talk) 14:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi! You might be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/69.126.251.101. Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 14:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello - Your comment is requested over at Talk:Flag of Western Sahara; there is an RfC underway there to help decide what the article contents should be. If you can take some time to share your opinion on the matter, it would be very much appreciated. -- Tachfin ( talk) 09:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello I recall that you had some serious reasons for not editing here and I hope those reasons are not something keeping you from being productive and happy these days. It's good to have your expertise here. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 05:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is " Users with indefinitely protected user talk pages". Thank you. Jackmcbarn ( talk) 19:19, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Hey, I noticed that you have voiced strong opinions on the definitions used on the North Africa page in the past. I have made a specific request for comment on the inclusion/exclusion of Sudan in the working definition of the page. Would be great to have your input. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm sure you're dropping by because I have annoyed you elsewhere in Wiki correcting some illiteracy or another in relationship with the MENA region and associated subjects. Before complaining take a breath, as frankly I don't really care.
Now, otherwise, if you need to know more about me, here is what I am willing to tell you.
Otherwise, any comments, abuse or whatever, feel free.
Collier Lounsbury
Welcome!
Hello Collounsbury, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your contributions on Tuareg. If you make your citations explicit (see Abraham Goldfaden, Ramon Casas i Carbó, or Antoni Gaudí for examples of how to do this; I happen to think the Gaudí example is best), it becomes much easier for other people to "defend" your accurate information against less knowledgable future edits. If you don't do that, it's very hard for anyone to choose between two uncited claims. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Greetings sir. I just wanted to let you know that I worked under a US agency in Tirana, Albania and I have no vested interest in pushing "POV". I can tell you that religion in Albania (much like the rest of europe) is largely symbolical and that is is not widely practised. The government is largely pro-American, does not endorse any religion and that muslims compromise only a small minority. Patterns 12:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know what you did exactly write in the discussion page as you didn't sign your comment, but you seem to know a bit about this subject. The information about Haratin is very scarse in Morocco, and this subject certainly needs to be better studied. I would tend to say, go ahead and make the contributions you feel are sensible, cheers -- Khalid hassani 18:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Here is a vote related to Western Sahara, let's hear your voice :). Daryou 07:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Per Talk:North Africa
Huh? What does this mean? - Justin (koavf), talk 01:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, buddy I hope you are well! I am new to wikipedia and I have updated the North Africa page to reflect the current definition of the U.S and U.N of North Africa which include Sudan. There is someone who clearly is removing it on purpose. can you help with that. ===>Wha? I'm not sure that I actually understand what you are writing. In what way are they "overdone"? The situation in Western Sahara has resulted in one of the top ten hugest refugee situations in the world for over thirty years; that's big stuff. It's certainly not simplistic. The following sentence is totally unintelligible:
Do you care to explain exactly what this is supposed to mean? - Justin (koavf), talk 02:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Whatever. How is Western Sahara a "molehill"? We're talking about the sustained human suffering of hundreds of thousands of people over four decades. I also don't see how it became less important as time wore on - tell that to the people in the camps. I got my information for the largeness of the refugee population from the 2005 Time Almanac, p. 713, who got their info from the U.S. Committee on Refugees. There are fourteen conflicts/regions with higher numbers, of which half have estimates that "vary considerably." It's impossible to give a precise number of refugees for many of these conflicts, but the Sahara is certainly around the 12th largest or so. And in terms of percentage of the population that became refugees, it is definitely among the highest three or four (compare with Sudan, or DR Congo.) - Justin (koavf), talk 02:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
===>Wha? There are over 100,000 Sahrawis in the camps right now, so I certainly don't see how you can make that claim in good faith. Also, how do you know how many Sahrawis I know? What is this "kid" stuff? There's no reason for this kind of derogatory language. I'm trying to be respectful, and you're the one simultaneously talking down to me, swearing, and asking me to ask like an adult. There's no excuse to be rude. If you think that the conflict is a molehill, I don't see why you've chosen to professionally study and report on it. If you want, take a while to respond, when emotions are not so high, and I'll be happy to hear what kind of sources you have for saying that there are less than 100,000 Sahrawis. - Justin (koavf), talk 03:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
- not that USCR is known low-balling refugee numbers, the contrary. As to your knowledge of Sahraouine, well, it shows. Typical just learned about a cause exitement. And, again, WS is a molehill: the territory itself is of little economic value, and completely unable to sustain the current population sans massive external subsidies. The entire thing would go away if the Algerian Generals did not find it a useful way to put political pressure on Morocco. But of course that's not as romantic as the party political agitprop spun.( Collounsbury 03:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC))
===>I'm guessing you aren't a native speaker? "Typical just learned about a cause exitement." Isn't an actual sentence. If you're implying that I just learned about the Sahara and I'm excited, so what? I didn't just learn about it, but who cares if I'm excited? Is there something wrong with that? Polisario existed prior to Algerian involvement, and the SADR wasn't initially recognized by Algeria, so if you're trying to perpetuate the preposterous myth that this is some anti-Moroccan plot by Algeria, you're certainly not going to convince me. - Justin (koavf), talk 03:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the note Collounsbury. Appreciation is mutual. I also find the WS theme in Wikipedia way overinflated relatively to the real situation on the ground. Wikipedia is definitely going to be a target for everyone with an agenda given the huge audience it has. I really think it should make a change in its introduction. It should insist more on that aspect so it isn't mistaken for a neutral authoritative source.
On another theme, I saw somewhere that you had some health issue. I hope I'm wrong, but if it's the case, my most sincere wishes for a good and speedy recovery.
--
Yobaranut 03:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Not at all mate, my pleasure. There is clearly rather a lot of naive axe grinding going on in re Western Sahara. And yes, on my blog (aqoul.com, a group blog actually) you probably saw that. I have cancer. Nasty thing, but I ain't dead yet. Has sent me into medical exile though. ( collounsbury 03:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC))
Now I've read your litanies on this i/e-affair affair in I think five different places. Better do something about it. What do you say we try to move the ancient Romano-Berber Mauretania to Mauritania (kingdom), and convert the page Mauretania into a redirect for modern-day Mauritania? Then we can get rid of the spelling thing.
Also, get well. Arre 03:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Some recent changes to the Moors article look like they go against the grain of mainstream scholarship. There really are so many individuals who vandalize this article, which is why it should be well-trafficked by authorities on the subject. -- Jugbo 22:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Collounsbury. Your remarks above about the overinflated WS articles and the user Koavf who infested Wikipedia with pro-polisario propaganda are true and the community get fed up with it: he is indefinitely blocked. Morocco and WS articles are now better, but the level of repetitive and un-enyclopedic "material" he and his likes have added is everywhere. Thanks for pointing it out, and congratulations for the recovery. -- A Jalil 22:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
What do you make of this quote by professor J. Phillipe Rushton:
“ Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the " Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position [1] ”
Notice how he defines Zanj as Negroid tribes South of the Sahara yet at the same time defines them as separate from the Ethiopians. Are we to conclude that the Ethiopians were not considered zanj because they are hybridized (Arabized) blacks. Cavalli-Sforza, says this about Ethiopians on pg 199 of The Great Human Diasporas:
The Ethiopians compromise a number of different ethnic groups and have many more languages. They are one of the forty-two genetic groups emerging from the fifteen hundred populations studied, and are classified as African, genetically speaking, even if a closer look reveals that they are special Africans with a high level of genes of caucasoid (white) origin. In fact we can call them an admixture of African and west Asian (Arab) genes. The two groups contribute respectively about 60 percent and 40 percent of their genes. But linguistically speaking, they are closer to the Arabs, because they generally speak languages from a family (Afro-Asiatic) covering northern Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East.
The mixed genetic makeup and use of Afro-Asiatic languages reflect the history of the Ethiopians, who for a long time had close contacts with the Arabs. In and around the earliest Christian times, there was an empire that took in both regions. Its capital was first at Saba (Sheba) in Arabia and later at Axum, in Africa. According to Ethiopian tradition, Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, visited King Solomon and had by him a son, Menelek, founder of the Ethiopian dynasty, which has only recently been overthrown. The Bible tells of these events. Christmasgirl
Hi Note that the Spanish Sahara was, in fact, annexed into the Spanish Empire, and that the protectorate(s) were a product of Spanish colonialism - weren't they? Needless to say, you proved yourself to be as rude and inflammatory as I recalled, and I would appreciate it if you weren't as pedantic to me; try "writing like an adult, mate." And "intifada" means "uprising;" while you are correct that I have far less of a grasp of Arabic than you do, that's ultimately irrelevant to the point that I was making. As proof of that position, you didn't actually offer any counter-argument, just some slander. The intifadas are related to the Sahara conflict, and as such, they should be on the template, right? And what "real experience" do you require of me? You want me to colonize parts of Africa? Start an intifada? What do you want, exactly? - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 00:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello Collounsbury, I have commented on the talk pages of certain articles that deal with the region historically know as North Africa, that is, Southern Mediterranean regions. I don't know where you're from, but I take it you are not from the region. After reading your page here, I understand your over-exuberance in dealing with my edits. You are obviously not interested in impartial, factual truth. You base your ideas on a single study, that used under 150 subjects, perhaps far less, from a traditionally sub-saharan region, that is, mauritania, and southern morocco, a country whose demographics have sadly been impacted by an illegal influx of sub-saharan africans. This study, minuscule in scope, cannot be applied to the VAST region that is the Southern Med/North Africa! Most of the populations of these different countries have no contact with each other, do not even understand each other's dialect, even in the case of Tunisia and Algeria! (neighbors) and so, it should be obvious even to you, that your edits are partial, inaccurate and highly objectionable. As I am sure you are aware, there are certain eccentric and rather deluded peeople out there who wish to appropriate certain cultures, and I believe as the region is mainly francophone, these eccentrics have succeeded, to a certain extent, in spreading their lies and fables. It is, however, improper to abuse wikipedia's editing system in furthering these fictions. And while you may be able, only temporarily, to remove the Southern Mediterranean's Arab identity from these pages as you appear to be a committed assualter, it continues to prosper in the real world and I will do my best to counter your efforts by urging other more patient souls to help me with this, as I have frankly no patience. Despite our differences, I am very appreciative of your comments, and I urge you to make more efforts to better inform yourself of this region's veritable, and not fictional, identity. Imposing your easily refutable fictional beliefs on others is not in keeping with wikipedian pillars. Remember, this is supposed to be a neutral, objective and encyclopedic source.I have cited encyclopedic sources and urge you again not to revert the articles back to their older, muddled versions. Mariam83 06:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hey man, I'm wondering if you know anything about the Berber language? I'll leave it that ambiguous for the time being. Msheflin ( talk) 18:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
you appear to be fictionalizing reality on these pages. for instance, in the article about North Africa, you are attempting to include central sub-saharan black countries in the definition and you are twisting facts and language around so as to establish a veritable link with sub-saharan africa which has historically not existed and which does not exist, unless you mean as I pointed out, that the slave trade is an important link? You use a map that includes central african countries, which is absurd. I did not find this map on any UN database, and if it is drawn politically, it does not stand, as we both know North africa's inclusison of even Mauritania is debatable, and when acknowledged, is based on language and not much else. THis is not the place to rewrite history, though you are actively engaged in doing this. Please be objective and reasonable. Mariam83 10:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Can you help out on the Maghrebine pages and this bizarre edit war set off by Mariam83? As I noted in comments, I don't even necessarily disagree with some (even a good many) of her edits, but the wholesale vandalistic editing with refusal to discuss at all is bloody stunning. Also rather disturbing is the editing on the African connexion angle, mate, as well as her comments on pages re 3bid, quite racialistic. Best collounsbury 14:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC).
Hi, Someome with a very simialr agenda to our dear friend has just opened an account, and started reverting back to those versions. I'm preparing a sockpuppetry case. Any thoughts? Bouha 17:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I take it you know what my objections are by now about these two pages. Namely, that contrary to what both articles authoritatively and inaccurately state, the majority of the people are not Berber. As it turns out in fact, they are not even completely Arab. Like I said before, there are all sorts of influences. I was about to edit the page and add an annotated, more scientific link as opposed to the non-annotated and rather unscientific NG one, but I don't want to engage in any drama. So, here is an excerpt: "In fact, the Tunisian genetic distances to European samples are smaller than those to North African groups. " "This could be explained by the history of the Tunisian population, reflecting the influence of the ancient Phoenician settlers of Carthage followed, among others, by Roman, Byzantine, Arab and French occupations, according to historical records. Notwithstanding, other explanations cannot be discarded, such as the relative heterogeneity within current Tunisian populations, and/or the limited sub-Saharan genetic influence in this region as compared with other North African areas, without excluding the possibility of the genetic drift, whose effect might be particularly amplified on the X chromosome."
Link: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n5/abs/5201797a.html
We could either revert back to my older version, or remove the section all together. However, the article as it stands is flawed. Please do not mention the past. Let us turn a new page. My sole interest here is that these pages become more informative. Let me know. also, you can see from this why I have a problem with the sweeping generalizations asserted on the Berber page. specifically, the word "debatable" I find particularly pov and in instance of injecting personal views. Why is the first study not debatable? Why is the second one debatable? Are they not both annotated studies? yes they are as I researched them. As to the Maghreb page, you know whihc line you changed and that too will have to be addressed. Thanks. Mariam83 15:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
You might want to look at this. -- A Jalil 13:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I did not vanadalise anything, nor was anything deleted on the Berber page. More details were provided as well as the deletion of a personal injection. Mariam83 17:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
The reply that I received after complaining about your blatant refusal to allow any changes :
"Wikipedia is a "wiki", which means that everyone can edit pages. You don't need to apply or get special permission to join us. At the top of each page is an "edit" label. Try it for example at: < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox>
You don't even need to log in to edit, although creating an account gives you more options and helps you keep track of your contributions. You can create an account at: < http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup>"
You need to calm down! Have you ever visited the Kabyle region in Algeria? The Kabyles would NEVER refer to themselves as Arabs nor Berbers! The article, nonetheless, presumptuously demeans them by suggesting that the Kabyles deny their "Berber" (absurd) origins and "pretend" rather ignorantly as the article suggests, that they are Arab, presumably because of an inferiority complex, the article implies. PLEASE BE REASONABLE! CALM DOWN! And why are you so vehemently intent on distorting and misrepresenting a people that you have no relation to?! Why not edit articles about England or Britain, as you are yourself an Islander? Jesus Christ!
Mariam83 17:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Honestly I was trying to help you by giving you information that you thought might be useful on the USFTA talk page. Calm down; you don't need to run off at the mouth and curse. Nor do you need to flout your voluminous knowledge or your personal contacts. I think that's fine and well, but it's simply rude and unnecessary. If you can't post to talk without being uncivil, just don't post to talk. Your edits would speak for themselves as useful and intelligent and not be undermined by your bad and crass attitude. - Justin (koavf)· T· C· M 00:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
No more hard talk guys. Collounsbury, please calm down and don't forget WP:CIV. Koavf, you should find a clear answer to your question at WP:V. He said it is on one of the US Department of State's websites (US Embassy in Tchad). With another additional simple effort you could have translated the page using an online translator. I've got this in English. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:33, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your help in response to my question about writing. As promised, here is a shiny gold coin. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 14:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Collounsbury I see you edited the caption for my photo, I wasn't trying to be POV but i can see how it can be interperted as such with the word "morrocanization", but i can assure you there is nothing POV about the phrasing "empty". I've seen ghost towns busier than these towns. We had a good old look around them only 3 weeks ago and there is no way these are occupied or about to be anytime soon. cheers Dexcel ( talk) 14:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Please stop it In addition to my usual requests that you 1.) act civil to me and 2.) at least refer to the talk page in a coherent fashion, and I'm letting you know that I'm posting on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. This is ridiculous. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 19:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
You are blocked for 24 hours for edit warring on Morocco ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and also for your inappropriate personalisation on the talk page. Please take this timeout to read the Five Pillars, chill some, and work out a way of working with others rather than against them. Thanks. Guy ( Help!) 21:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Mate, having a wee problem there, http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arabist&action=history as there seems to be a banned Mariam83 type obsessive who wishes to insert irrelevant ranting about perceived racism in Arabism (although the arty is about non-Arab Arabists...). As I have bollixed up the reporting and appear to be code incompetent, perhaps you can help. ( collounsbury ( talk) 15:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC))
I'm pretty sure that the issue was resolved when I added the new citations and referenced work. Your most recent comments were in effect referencing what was discussed previously before I added the actual correct cites from credible sources. In addition, I do agree that since it is a consensus in the academic world that use of the term negro is racist and in addition untrue. What's actually trying to be said is Moors aren't "black" or "negro" etc... The statement was made by someone who's background is questionable and holds little weight when held up to other works by notable scholars. When I tried to remove the statement I was told I couldn't even though it has racial overtones. So in effect I added several sources that debunk the myth because that is essentially what is is. A myth that Moors weren't "black" "negro" or whatever. It is an actual fact documented in numerous publications that Moors consisted of a very diverse group of individuals from the African Diaspora, including Ethiopian Sub-Saharan West African etc.. that converted to Islam and served within the military. The sources I added are not "Afrocentric" in nature. I did so after I was told that Ivan Van Sertima was an afrocentric author. So I used other notable credible sources to prove the statement wrong which is important to the readers. If we are going to have a false statment in an article which is actually the belief of someone, we should also correct it to alert the reader to the fact that this is the opinion of one author. I have cited several sources in addition to page numbers in accordance to Wiki guidelines. Once I did that the problem was solved. My issue is with untrue information being placed in the article stating Moors were only Arabs and Berbers when it is a fact that you can't just omit a whole group of people. -- Gnosis ( talk) 18:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)-- Gnosis ( talk) 18:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Okay so how would you suggest I edit content to the Moors page? Because I did it according to the way Wikipedia states and it was still removed.-- Gnosis ( talk) 03:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Please explain your statment unsupported the citations were clearly there and from non Afrocentric sources... I do not wish to engage in an edit war but the information should be included in the article. The point was not to say Moors were white or black. It talks about the debate of Moors racial makeup. All of the information are from well cited sources. In addition it is not POV because this is a historic description of the people. Please explain and let's come to some sort of mutual decision how this should be included. I'm willing to work with you to include this information in the most appropriate way.-- Gnosis ( talk) 13:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the alert. I've been away for a while, so I'm only now just reading it. Glad to see that someone else has noticed the fundamentally POV nature of many of Gnosis' edits. The trouble seems to have subsided for now; but if it ever starts up again, please let me know and I'll be glad to lend assistance in any way I can. Best, Causteau ( talk) 22:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I think one reference to one geographical location is sufficient. As the template states it is North Africa which eventually is in Africa. I think we should always be as precise as possible without excess; this applies of course when the reader can obviously find other related facts/information. So in our case, mentioning the AMU states (+Egypt, Sudan and other territories) are in North Africa implies without doubt that they are in Africa. This prevents us from flooding the article with tens of templates having the same aim but more general (saying this country is in North Africa is more precise and at the same time tells that these countries are in Africa; imagine saying Malaysia is a South East Asia and it is in Asia or Tunisia is in North Africa and it is in Africa). About Mauritania, actually the list shows the North African nations according to the UN subregion classification (as mentioned in the above statement of the template). Further more, in North Africa article, geographically speaking, North Africa includes other countries (you can take a look at the article for full listings of both classifications). Finally thanks for your interest and I am open to any suggestions. Bestofmed ( talk) 18:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC).
Please do not forget to notify involved editors when starting an AN/I thread, as not doing so is generally considered to be quite rude. Regards, — neuro (talk) 11:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Rather than continue 'warring' over the article, here is my reasoning. Arabic is not spoken in Malta. The Maltese language is spoken in Malta. The Maltese language is a genetic descendant of Arabic, specifically Siculo-Arabic, a dialect (read 'variety') of Arabic that has been extinct for more than 1,000 years. This should be reflected in the inclusion of Malta as a place where 'Arabic' is spoken because, unlike all the other countries listed, Arabic is, quite simply, not spoken in Malta. If there are further difficulties, hopefully they can be sorted out. the roof of this court is too high to be yours ( talk) 14:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
See this one you did [2] and mine just now: [3] dougweller ( talk) 21:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi! You might be interested in the discussion at Talk:Moors#The_facts. Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 14:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC) The Ogre ( talk) 14:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi! You might be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/69.126.251.101. Thank you. The Ogre ( talk) 14:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello - Your comment is requested over at Talk:Flag of Western Sahara; there is an RfC underway there to help decide what the article contents should be. If you can take some time to share your opinion on the matter, it would be very much appreciated. -- Tachfin ( talk) 09:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello I recall that you had some serious reasons for not editing here and I hope those reasons are not something keeping you from being productive and happy these days. It's good to have your expertise here. — Justin (koavf)❤ T☮ C☺ M☯ 05:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is " Users with indefinitely protected user talk pages". Thank you. Jackmcbarn ( talk) 19:19, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Hey, I noticed that you have voiced strong opinions on the definitions used on the North Africa page in the past. I have made a specific request for comment on the inclusion/exclusion of Sudan in the working definition of the page. Would be great to have your input. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)