![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | → | Archive 40 |
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Thank you for your impact | |
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taking a principled stance to defend the values of the comminity! |
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Apparently it is the anniversary of my first edit to WP but, as of now, it is also the anniversary of my final edit. I understand why you would see Jimbo's clarification regarding the role of ArbCom in the Fram mess as being a turning point. However, Jimbo has made promises before and failed to keep them, and I am still at a loss as to why the Board could not in the first place say what he has since said. Their message is full of dense corporate-speak, as ClemRutter has noted at WP:FRAMBAN today. [1] If the Board issue a statement that actually offers clarity and notes that the WMF cannot usurp en-WP processes then I'll be back: that has been my position from the outset, but their statement of a few hours ago doesn't do that at all. They need somehow to accept and adapt to the fact that they are dealing with laypeople here, not corporate wonks, diplomats, lawyers and PR gurus who are adept with reading between lines, spotting nuances and the like.
I am particularly concerned about possible attempts to tone-police, to move us all to some homogenised "California-speak", and to seek an unrealistic definition of harassment and/or civility. By the standards of those involved with Wikimedia DC, for example, I harass people pretty much every day here, cleaning up after socks, serial copyright violators, pov-pushers, those who misrepresent sources etc - you know this, you've seen me do it. I couldn't care less about the gender of those people whose edits I track, nor their race or creed or sexuality. I've increasingly found, however, that people closely connected to the WMF, such as many officers of WM-DC, think it is wrong to correct such issues if it might hurt the feelings of the person concerned even if the corrections indubitably are improvements. And that is my big issue in all this mess, which the recent statements of the Board and the ED do nothing to alleviate. We're in a bizarre situation where someone can get away with being repeatedly uncollaborative and dismissive of others by retorting with "cool story, bro" to shut down dialogue yet someone else, like me, can be accused of harassment despite people such as Drmies and Bishonen marvelling at my patience in trying to resolve issues.
I doubt that I am alone in thinking this and so, yes, while I can understand your optimism following Jimbo's personal statement, I remain to be convinced of both its scope and, indeed, its validity. - Sitush ( talk) 12:37, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
As for fears of a new "California-speak" civility regime, I'm in (at least two) minds. One one hand, the en.wiki culture genuinely can be intimidating, and I know intelligent educated people who would like to help but won't do so because of that. And, though I hate to have to say it, there are some regular contributors whose behaviour genuinely is disruptive. For example, during this case I've seen people being gratuitously obnoxious and insulting just for the hell it. And when it comes to dealing with problematic users, there's a whole spectrum of approach - it's not a binary choice between "super nicey nicey" and "treat them like scum". It's entirely possible to be right about a content-related issue or about someone's ability, while being unacceptably aggressive and attacking about it - and in my view, Fram has fallen too far to the "unacceptably aggressive" end of the scale too often. He does need to be made to tone it down, just not in the way it was done by T&S.
And now the other hand. I don't think that need make everyone fear the T&S in the night, not if future approaches to this are going to be done with ArbCom and with proper community consultation. And as long as that happens, I think people will continue to get a fair hearing. As for you personally, I don't think you really have anything to worry about. You do, indeed, show remarkable patience, and I really can't see any new civility approach coming down on those dealing with genuinely tendentious editors as you do.
Now, all this means taking Jimmy at his word, and I know you don't have a lot of faith in that (and a lot of others don't either). But he's made some pretty serious commitments today, and I think he deserves the chance to prove himself. Saying all that, I'm not going to be asking for my admin bit back. I'll wait and see how things turn out, see how any new civility thing goes, and if a regime evolves under which I'd be happy to do admin stuff, I might run for RfA. But I'll still carry on doing other stuff here (after a break, which I think I deserve), and I hope you come back soon too. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 14:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
On one hand, the en.wiki culture genuinely can be intimidating, and I know intelligent educated people who would like to help but won't do so because of that.
When a seventeenth-century university professor had to explain to parents why they should afford their children a university education, he told them that learning, humanistic learning, is the first ingredient of a better society. Knowledge of the liberal arts and sciences, he argued, “can be acquired only with strong dedication of the mind, with long and late hours of application, with sweat, with persistent discipline, and with punctilious discipline.” For him, “our peaceful society” and its fruits are “for the most part based on the cultivation of these studies.”’ Norman Klassen, Jens Zimmermann, The Passionate Intellect: Incarnational Humanism and the Future of University Education, Baker Academic, 2006 p.14.
![]() |
Lightburst (
talk)
20:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC) has given you a
Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.
To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{ subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. |
Firstly, may I say that I genuinely respect the position you have taken in regard to the ongoing saga over WMF's Office Actions - it's very honourable - and I can see how cross and totally hair-tearingly frustrated you were by the utterly ridiculous proposal of EllenCT which threatened to inflame and undermine the progress currently being made to resolve the situation. I completely agree with you on the points you were making to her, but not in the way you made them. So I felt I had to drop by and say I was quite shocked by your use profanity in those interactions to reinforce your frustrations with her ( [2], [3] [4] [5]).
At a time when our discussions are centring around perceptions of civility and harassment, I feel that moment was out of character and not a worthy way for you to interact with another editor, irrespective of their gender or viewpoint, and no matter how dumb their proposal was. In resigning your admin rights, you already owned the moral high ground and the respect of our community. Had that discussion not now been closed, it might have been a nice gesture to have gone back and struck some of those words out. I apologise if this sounds patronising, that wasn't my intention. I just felt it had to be said. You'll have my support if you decide to go for a re-RfA (and I'm a bit relieved I held off going for my own RfA, albeit for reasons quite unconnected with WP:FRAMBAN). Respectfully, Nick Moyes ( talk) 01:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
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... about frustration -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:32, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Hey again. Im very proud of you for your actions during this FRAM mess. You were one of my favorite administrators, and I'm glad to have worked with you. Hell, you were a huge reason I was able to be a better wikipedian. From telling me as a little boy on another account in 2012 that I needed to meet CIR, then speaking in support of my unblock last year, then that turned into me becoming a pending changes reviewer, then today where you answered "no" on an important RFC I proposed regarding "under a cloud" status for resigned admins, I am proud to say you helped facillitate my character growth on Wikipedia. I love you Boing, and thanks for everything on this encyclopedia. I owe you one. If users like you didn't believe in me, a young changed man who would do many things to spread free knowledge globally, I dont know where I'd be now. DrewieStewie ( talk) 06:32, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
![]() |
The Original Barnstar |
Thank you for what you did for Wikipedia. Nigos ( t@lk • Contribs) 01:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC) |
Hey, yeah sorry. Was surprised to see i did that, was on the wrong tab it seems. I am deeply sorry and it won't happen again. Kante4 ( talk) 11:01, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
well said. — Ched : ? — 21:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
You're awesome. - Bobalobabingbong ( talk) 22:45, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
![]() | |
Seven years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:54, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I see you are active, Boing! Would you consider asking for your bit back? Your level-headed admin work is missed! Liz Read! Talk! 00:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
![]() |
Thanks for your support in my recent, albeit unsuccessful, RfA. It was truly appreciated. I hope you find your way back into the ranks of the admin corps some day. Boing on! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:32, 24 August 2019 (UTC) |
Help put article /info/en/?search=Draft:Moshe_Goldberg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.253.188.7 ( talk) 08:43, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
I've read the blocking policy, specifically the part about I.P. addresses. I even asked an RfA question based off of it, [7] and the answer there fits with policy the way I understand it. The reason I'm bringing this up is because something that happened a few months ago is still bugging me. I figured that I must have just been wrong, as an admin would definitely know policy better than I do (a relatively new contributor). Now, I'm not so sure. I'm not sure if it was a fluke, or if there's something I'm not understanding, but I'm still confused and would like a second opinion. Here's a diff so you understand what I'm taking about, [8]. The block has expired by now anyways, but I still don't understand why it was nessecary to be 3 months long in the first place. Clovermoss ( talk) 00:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | → | Archive 40 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | → | Archive 40 |
![]() | |
Thank you for your impact | |
---|---|
taking a principled stance to defend the values of the comminity! |
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Apparently it is the anniversary of my first edit to WP but, as of now, it is also the anniversary of my final edit. I understand why you would see Jimbo's clarification regarding the role of ArbCom in the Fram mess as being a turning point. However, Jimbo has made promises before and failed to keep them, and I am still at a loss as to why the Board could not in the first place say what he has since said. Their message is full of dense corporate-speak, as ClemRutter has noted at WP:FRAMBAN today. [1] If the Board issue a statement that actually offers clarity and notes that the WMF cannot usurp en-WP processes then I'll be back: that has been my position from the outset, but their statement of a few hours ago doesn't do that at all. They need somehow to accept and adapt to the fact that they are dealing with laypeople here, not corporate wonks, diplomats, lawyers and PR gurus who are adept with reading between lines, spotting nuances and the like.
I am particularly concerned about possible attempts to tone-police, to move us all to some homogenised "California-speak", and to seek an unrealistic definition of harassment and/or civility. By the standards of those involved with Wikimedia DC, for example, I harass people pretty much every day here, cleaning up after socks, serial copyright violators, pov-pushers, those who misrepresent sources etc - you know this, you've seen me do it. I couldn't care less about the gender of those people whose edits I track, nor their race or creed or sexuality. I've increasingly found, however, that people closely connected to the WMF, such as many officers of WM-DC, think it is wrong to correct such issues if it might hurt the feelings of the person concerned even if the corrections indubitably are improvements. And that is my big issue in all this mess, which the recent statements of the Board and the ED do nothing to alleviate. We're in a bizarre situation where someone can get away with being repeatedly uncollaborative and dismissive of others by retorting with "cool story, bro" to shut down dialogue yet someone else, like me, can be accused of harassment despite people such as Drmies and Bishonen marvelling at my patience in trying to resolve issues.
I doubt that I am alone in thinking this and so, yes, while I can understand your optimism following Jimbo's personal statement, I remain to be convinced of both its scope and, indeed, its validity. - Sitush ( talk) 12:37, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
As for fears of a new "California-speak" civility regime, I'm in (at least two) minds. One one hand, the en.wiki culture genuinely can be intimidating, and I know intelligent educated people who would like to help but won't do so because of that. And, though I hate to have to say it, there are some regular contributors whose behaviour genuinely is disruptive. For example, during this case I've seen people being gratuitously obnoxious and insulting just for the hell it. And when it comes to dealing with problematic users, there's a whole spectrum of approach - it's not a binary choice between "super nicey nicey" and "treat them like scum". It's entirely possible to be right about a content-related issue or about someone's ability, while being unacceptably aggressive and attacking about it - and in my view, Fram has fallen too far to the "unacceptably aggressive" end of the scale too often. He does need to be made to tone it down, just not in the way it was done by T&S.
And now the other hand. I don't think that need make everyone fear the T&S in the night, not if future approaches to this are going to be done with ArbCom and with proper community consultation. And as long as that happens, I think people will continue to get a fair hearing. As for you personally, I don't think you really have anything to worry about. You do, indeed, show remarkable patience, and I really can't see any new civility approach coming down on those dealing with genuinely tendentious editors as you do.
Now, all this means taking Jimmy at his word, and I know you don't have a lot of faith in that (and a lot of others don't either). But he's made some pretty serious commitments today, and I think he deserves the chance to prove himself. Saying all that, I'm not going to be asking for my admin bit back. I'll wait and see how things turn out, see how any new civility thing goes, and if a regime evolves under which I'd be happy to do admin stuff, I might run for RfA. But I'll still carry on doing other stuff here (after a break, which I think I deserve), and I hope you come back soon too. Boing! said Zebedee ( talk) 14:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
On one hand, the en.wiki culture genuinely can be intimidating, and I know intelligent educated people who would like to help but won't do so because of that.
When a seventeenth-century university professor had to explain to parents why they should afford their children a university education, he told them that learning, humanistic learning, is the first ingredient of a better society. Knowledge of the liberal arts and sciences, he argued, “can be acquired only with strong dedication of the mind, with long and late hours of application, with sweat, with persistent discipline, and with punctilious discipline.” For him, “our peaceful society” and its fruits are “for the most part based on the cultivation of these studies.”’ Norman Klassen, Jens Zimmermann, The Passionate Intellect: Incarnational Humanism and the Future of University Education, Baker Academic, 2006 p.14.
![]() |
Lightburst (
talk)
20:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC) has given you a
Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.
To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{ subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. |
Firstly, may I say that I genuinely respect the position you have taken in regard to the ongoing saga over WMF's Office Actions - it's very honourable - and I can see how cross and totally hair-tearingly frustrated you were by the utterly ridiculous proposal of EllenCT which threatened to inflame and undermine the progress currently being made to resolve the situation. I completely agree with you on the points you were making to her, but not in the way you made them. So I felt I had to drop by and say I was quite shocked by your use profanity in those interactions to reinforce your frustrations with her ( [2], [3] [4] [5]).
At a time when our discussions are centring around perceptions of civility and harassment, I feel that moment was out of character and not a worthy way for you to interact with another editor, irrespective of their gender or viewpoint, and no matter how dumb their proposal was. In resigning your admin rights, you already owned the moral high ground and the respect of our community. Had that discussion not now been closed, it might have been a nice gesture to have gone back and struck some of those words out. I apologise if this sounds patronising, that wasn't my intention. I just felt it had to be said. You'll have my support if you decide to go for a re-RfA (and I'm a bit relieved I held off going for my own RfA, albeit for reasons quite unconnected with WP:FRAMBAN). Respectfully, Nick Moyes ( talk) 01:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
![]() |
... about frustration -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:32, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Hey again. Im very proud of you for your actions during this FRAM mess. You were one of my favorite administrators, and I'm glad to have worked with you. Hell, you were a huge reason I was able to be a better wikipedian. From telling me as a little boy on another account in 2012 that I needed to meet CIR, then speaking in support of my unblock last year, then that turned into me becoming a pending changes reviewer, then today where you answered "no" on an important RFC I proposed regarding "under a cloud" status for resigned admins, I am proud to say you helped facillitate my character growth on Wikipedia. I love you Boing, and thanks for everything on this encyclopedia. I owe you one. If users like you didn't believe in me, a young changed man who would do many things to spread free knowledge globally, I dont know where I'd be now. DrewieStewie ( talk) 06:32, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
![]() |
The Original Barnstar |
Thank you for what you did for Wikipedia. Nigos ( t@lk • Contribs) 01:00, 8 July 2019 (UTC) |
Hey, yeah sorry. Was surprised to see i did that, was on the wrong tab it seems. I am deeply sorry and it won't happen again. Kante4 ( talk) 11:01, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
well said. — Ched : ? — 21:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
You're awesome. - Bobalobabingbong ( talk) 22:45, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
![]() | |
Seven years! |
---|
-- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:54, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
I see you are active, Boing! Would you consider asking for your bit back? Your level-headed admin work is missed! Liz Read! Talk! 00:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
![]() |
Thanks for your support in my recent, albeit unsuccessful, RfA. It was truly appreciated. I hope you find your way back into the ranks of the admin corps some day. Boing on! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:32, 24 August 2019 (UTC) |
Help put article /info/en/?search=Draft:Moshe_Goldberg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.253.188.7 ( talk) 08:43, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
I've read the blocking policy, specifically the part about I.P. addresses. I even asked an RfA question based off of it, [7] and the answer there fits with policy the way I understand it. The reason I'm bringing this up is because something that happened a few months ago is still bugging me. I figured that I must have just been wrong, as an admin would definitely know policy better than I do (a relatively new contributor). Now, I'm not so sure. I'm not sure if it was a fluke, or if there's something I'm not understanding, but I'm still confused and would like a second opinion. Here's a diff so you understand what I'm taking about, [8]. The block has expired by now anyways, but I still don't understand why it was nessecary to be 3 months long in the first place. Clovermoss ( talk) 00:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | → | Archive 40 |