Dear Abecedare,
OK, thanks for your note. I do think that, on a subject as vast as Hinduism, there is room for a "further reading" section. Please note that some of the references given in the "References" section are extremely oriented: Frawley for instance, who is nothing else than a charlatan. Also, please consider the problematic first sentence of this article. Orthodox Hinduism states the "Northern" origin of the anciant Rishis. That may be symbolic, of course, but at least this should be mentionned. All the stuff about NAIT is rooted into political considerations that were foreign to Hindus during millenaries.
Regards,
TwoHorned 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Abecedare,
Academic texts can be mentionned, of course, but why not stand also on texts written by Hindu Saints ? Second, the question of chronology in Hinduism is not solvable. May I recommend you to read the first chapters of Guénon's Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines on this subject ? The "oral" transmission anterior to Vyasa is completely undetermined in length. And, yes, you're right Vedic text themselves are apurusheya : why not mention that ? Also, quite an interesting point: didn't Tilak himself write a book called "The Artic home in the Vedas" despite all the known relations between Tilak and Savarkar w.r.t. NAIT ? TwoHorned 21:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I have avoided getting into the discussion about Aryan theories, but I did look up what J. P. Mallory had to say about the Arctic theories in his mainstream book In Search of the Indo-Europeans (Thames & Hudson: 1989, ISBN 0-500-27616-1). The Arctic claim is so unusual that Mallory begins his chapter on "The Indo-European Homeland Problem" with these sentences:
"We begin our search for the homeland of the Indo-Europeans with the deceptively optimistic claim that it has already been located. For who would look further north than Lokomanya Tilak and Georg Biedenkapp who traced the earliest Aryans to the North Pole? Or who would venture a homeland further south than North Africa, further west than the Atlantic or further east than the shores of the Pacific, all of which have seriously been proposed as 'cradles' of the Indo-Europeans? This quest for the origins of the Indo-Europeans has all the fascination of an electric light in the open air on a summer night: it tends to attract every species of scholar or would-be savant who can take pen in hand. It also shows a remarkable ability to mesmerize even scholars of outstanding ability to wander far beyond the realm of reasonable speculation to provide yet another example of academic lunacy." (Mallory 1989, p. 143)
The reference to Tilak's monograph takes place in a paragraph where Mallory mentions various major camps among the theories, saying "Some scholars struggled to maintain a middle course, others provided comic relief.... Cokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak provided the world with an entire monograph marshalling all the available mythological evidence to prove that the Aryan homeland was the North Pole.[note 38] This incredible theory gained at least one supporter when George Biedenkapp, flushed with enthusiasm for Tilak's hypothesis, produced his own book summarizing the Indian savant's work in German and added further evidence of his own. The Icelandic linguist Alexander Johannesson conconcted another bizarre theory that related Indo-European roots to bird calls (Proto-Indo-European *ker- was imitative of a raven), grunts, and loud natural sounds which, according to him, could best be heard on the shores of the Baltic Sea." (p.269)
[note 38]"Tilak's 'polar theory' for Aryan origins was not a bizarre quirk of a single individual but rather the culmination of an extremely long tradition of analysis of Indo-Aryan myth, for example, poems that indicate a home in the north where a day and a night lasted six months each, the Pole star rises to the zenith, and so on. A modern review of this 'northern cycle' of myths can be found in Bongard-Levin (1980) who argues that Indo-Aryan, Iranian and Scythian traditions (and by cultural contact also Greeks) all shared a common mythology of a northern mountainous land which, he argues, could only have been acquired in their prior common home on the Pontic-Caspian steppe." (p. 277, note 38)
Buddhipriya 00:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for inviting me to this discussion, but I have little to contribute, mainly because I have yet to find a satisfying scholarly treatment of the origins of Hinduism. I could write extensively on my personal take of the issue, but that isn't what these talk pages are for. I'll just note that (a) not having read Bongard-Levin's book, I'm not aware of any "extremely long tradition of analysis of Indo-Aryan myth" pointing to Arctic origins; (b) I have no idea what "oral transmission anterior to Vyasa" could mean in relation to issues of fact (as opposed to Puranic myths and mystical fantasies erected thereon); and (c) there is no evidence (textual, archaeological, etc.) to trace the Hinduism of pujas, temples and idols any further back than about the start of the Common Era. An overwhelming majority of Hindus don't know a word of the Vedas. If anyone is reading scripture on the bus back home from work, it's probably the Gita. And so on. Far too much ink, liquid and electronic, is spent on "high philosophy" and hoarily ancient origins (the hoarier the "better") as if these could illuminate popular Hinduism in the rank and file. IMHO. Sorry, I wound up ranting anyway. rudra 04:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
As rudra points out, it is just a matter of separating historical studies from mythology and from mysticist authors. "Hinduism" is an umbrella term, by definition applicable to all religious traditions, however disparate, that originate in India. It "originates" with the onset of sources, viz. the Vedas, although what we know as "typical" Hinduism today originates in the early centuries CE. We can very well discuss Puranic mythology, as mythology, and we can discuss the various tenets of mysticist authors of the various Hindu reform movements (Tilak, Aurobindo and what not), as 19th century "romanticist" ( Viking revival style) currents. Just don't conflate things. dab (𒁳) 08:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Note: I have copied the above comments to the Hinduism Talk page since TwoHorned chose to continue the discussion there. Abecedare 18:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
You are absolutely correct that you have never questioned my motivation. I should never question yours either. Maybe I have misspoken. [I shall remove that comment right now.] All I want to say is that if we together can improve the article, let us do so. Let neither of us try to defend what is there. It will be there anyway, unless it is suitably emended. Okay? Thanks. Kanchanamala 02:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how I stumbled upon this article. But you are absolutely correct. There is one statement in that article ["fifth veda"] to which the reference from Guru Nanak Dev's "Japuji Sahib" can be added as a citation. It will add some weight to the article. Please take a look at it. Thanks. Kanchanamala 22:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The day after all of those Maleabroad socks were expelled we now have User:Algorithm0 perhaps testing the waters? Compare User:Algorithm1. Just a heads up that this looks suspicious to me. Buddhipriya 22:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
See this and let me know if you have any changes to suggest (or just edit it yourself !). I'll leave a message with Aldux to make sure that this does not violate any wikipedia guidelines or spirit, before I advertise it to interested editors. Abecedare 00:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
<deindent> I made some minor tweaks for reasons explained in the edit summaries. Of course there are many other socks of Maleabroad, both blocked and unblocked, that can be added to the list ... but that task is not urgent at all since the aim is to stop currently active vandalism. Once I hear back from Aldux about the appropriateness of this effort, we can inform other interested users such as Orpheus, GourangUK etc. Hopefully the time we invested today, will save us some time in the future. Thanks for all your help! Abecedare 02:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure Ms. Daniels does not control that account. I think this because of the timing. That edit was made at about the time she showed the edit on TV. But the show wasn't live... So she must be this anon, and that user a fan. That is why I blocked. Prodego talk 02:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I have moved a refactored summary of the conversation we had to the following location trying to get more input. I hope you will comment on it there. Talk:IAST#More_on_use_of_IAST. I also noticed that the category for "Articles containing IAST" just disappeared and I am wondering if Template:IAST will be next, as there is ongoing confusion about the difference between the role of the IAST tag to specify a romanization method and the role of the Unicode tag to specify an implementation method for IAST glyphs. I would like to expand the text on the Template:IAST to discuss these issues but I do not have any clear idea on how Template pages are supposed to be maintained. Is this something you can help me with? I have set up a work page at User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage to consolidate notes from various places. Buddhipriya 20:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just saw your msg on my talk page : have been out of internet contact (yeah, that happens more often than one thinks it is possible :)) for a few days. I'll pitch in with whatever I can after reading the discussions on the article talk page. Thanks! - Sdsouza 15:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we get that deleted? It just attracts vandalism at India and I don't consider it particularly useful at the Pilgrimage page. The Behnam 03:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess this means he's finally made it in the big leagues, then. Good idea to keep a page to coordinate this - I'll do my bit to keep it up to date. Haven't had much time lately due to the non-electronic world but I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Orpheus 05:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you help me out at Talk:Devadasi? I don't know much about it but two users keep fighting about some caste issue across several pages. If you know stuff about it I'd appreciate some help at resolving that dispute. The Behnam 04:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try and help as much as I can. - Aksi_great ( talk) 17:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
(Resetting indent) Hi. I have blocked all these users as they have been confirmed as Maleabroad socks.
Do inform me if any other accounts pop up. Let's wait for some more days before we set a range block over the entire college IP. - Aksi_great ( talk) 18:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps maleabroad has a point there, rather than directing to culture of India, it may as well redir to Hinduism as Hinduism is not exclusively Indian and Indian culture is not exclusively Hindu. Baka man 03:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Range_blocks says:
"These are sometimes used when a problem user responds to several IP blocks by changing IP address. They will affect at least some legitimate users, so should only be used when the disruptive behavior is frequent and severe enough to make other methods ineffective. Use careful judgment and make them as brief as possible. When making a range block, an administrator should note the range in the block reason. If you do not do so, and a block is appealed, it is impossible to tell what the blocked IP is."
I understand that Wikipedia policy dislikes use of range blocks for universities, but isn't Maleabroad a perfect test case for that policy? There must have been other instances similar to this.
I think it is at least reading up on this procedure. It can't be that uncommon to block a school or there would be no need for Template:Schoolblock, which includes clearly-defined appeal procedures for users who may contact Wikipedia directly if the block creates problems for them.
Buddhipriya 03:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently found a forum post by our mutual friend which I've added to the fan club page. It's quite illuminating, as are the rest of his posts on that board. Have a look and let me know what you think. Orpheus 07:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hi, I've been asked to share an approach that I tried out last fall. I was dealing with a school district in the United States, not a university in Canada, but maybe the same basic strategy would yield results. Basically while I was vandal fighting I noticed that a particular school IP had been blocked 11 times during the past calendar year, and the blocks other sysops had imposed had been as long as a month. So I wondered whether the school was aware of the problem. Very simple solution: I clicked the IP info link at the IP talk page, from there I went through a WHOIS option until I got an e-mail address for the tech office. Then I wrote a polite message, hoping I had contacted the right person, identifying myself as a Wikipedia administrator, and summarizing the problem. The IT department got back to me promptly and we followed up with a telephone conference the next day. It turned out that the entire school district was routed through the same IP address.
I assured them that students and teachers could still read Wikipedia and that people who already had accounts were still able to edit our site, then explained the situation in greater detail and sent a few links to verify what I was talking about. The problems had probably come from a single group of students (kids who vandalize often write each others' first names as jokes). The district rep was very polite and cooperative and loved my suggestion: assign those children to improve a Wikipedia article under a teacher's supervision - perhaps about local history (this happened to be Plymouth, Massachusetts).
I hope some kind of similar win-win approach could help your dilemma. Durova Charge! 00:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
You may want to look at the book noted here. Baka man 02:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What is your opinion on this, it's a phenomenon ripping Wikipedia apart from the seams, with fanatical supporters of Swami Vivekananda and his RSS revising history to make people believe lies. Think of all the children that enter Wikipedia and see this revisionist history and will need deprogramming in the future. I commend our maintsream admins. I support the neutrality and common non-OR sense of our admins. By the way, did you know that Swami Vivekananda himself used to write propaganda and publish it in Voice of India. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.178.139.138 ( talk) 23:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).
Glad you found it useful! I too found it contained well-balanced article outlining the diverse aspects surrounding the topic. Though not a primer on Hinduism, nor a substitute for studying primary or in-depth scholarly articles, I found its level of treatment of the topics matched my own level of knowledge and interest. Hopefully after reading it, you'll be able to contribute even more to wikipedia - although that is hard to imagine. :-) Abecedare 23:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
1. One reason why I have not sought to actually edit the articles on Hindu and Hinduism is, since you took upon yourself to improve the articles, I thought it would be better to team up with you and assist you. You do the combat, and I'll drive the humvee.
2. I have taken interest in the two articles because I am a Hindu, and I would like the articles to represent the Hindus and their traditions accurately. I am in a position to make suggestions in that regard. Whether any suggestion can be included in the article would be your lookout, and I would respect your decision, because you seem to know the Wikipedia conventions pretty well.
3. I have little need to rely on any dictionary or translation only because, I can read and write in Devanagari, and I have native fluency in Sanskrit. If I were a contemporary of the pioneers who compiled the Sanskrit-English dictionaries [which are still being widely consulted by scholars], I would have shared my knowledge with them, especially with the European scholars who depended upon the native pundits.
4. As for citations, I don't have to agree with them. I am keenly aware that Wikipedia editors rely on citations, but I don't have to. In the interest of accurate representation of the Hindus and their traditions, I deem it proper to voice my concerns. If other editors can do nothing about my concerns because of the Wikipedia constraints, I fully understand it. I don't get upset with them, and I wish and hope that they don't get upset with me.
5. Are we still a team?
Thanks. Kanchanamala 02:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, Thanks for the praise on PINQ! What was that about publishing limericks? -- Longhairandabeard 06:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the elaborations, as they really helped. I guess my laziness superseded my judgment and as a result, I used the length of the discussion as a pretense of whether or not the debate was still a "hot-topic." Also, per my subconscious selective reading, I saw alphachimp's comment but not yours, figures doesn't it :P . I'm glad that the argument was resolved far before my mistaken (i.e. ignorant and biased) post on Jimbo Wales' talk page, and I apologize for any confusion / instigation I may have caused. Again, if you missed the other 3 or so times that I've mentioned it, I'm sorry :-) ~ Step trip 22:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tobias Conradi ShivaIdol 11:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Excellent rewrite. Can you keep going with other sections? I know we have an outside copyeditor on the way, but you know the material. I feel strongly that the reference to dharma in the lead should go, as I have explained on the talk page for the article. It is a keyword. Also Subramuniya's book claiming that "Lemurian scrolls" support his belief that human origins can be traced to space travel to Earth from the Pleiades millions of years ago limits his credibility as a WP:RS. See: [2]. I therefore object to the use of Subramuniyaswami as a WP:RS for any statement of fact regarding Ganesha, but I consider him an interesting source to represent a particular devotional opinion. I would prefere to see statements by him prefaced by the fact they are coming from him, and I feel they should not go in the lead. Buddhipriya 03:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
<reset indent>
I'll surprise you on this one - I would consider that edit to be in the top 10% of all edits made on wikiepedia! That is not to say, that it cannot be improved in terms of language, inline referencing and conformation with wikipedia guidelines and style book, but on the positive side Redtigerxyz does cite a Marathi book reference (and note that while his references on Ganesha page were found to be inappropriate for the article, he did not misrepresent the source, unlike what we saw at The Argumentative Indian) and lays a foundation for interested editors to come in and build upon. He also (unlike Maleabroad and his socks) seems to be editing in good faith and while his sources may be different from the ones you or I prefer, he doesn't seem to be pushing an ideologicalPOV. It is true that throwing in such rough-hewn material on a already Good or Featured article would be inadvisable, it can be the first step in
improving stubs.
My larger point is this: Wikipedia has more than 1.7M articles, two-thirds of which are less than 2KB
[4] and less than 0.08% are
FA level - so if one goes looking for crap, it is frustratingly easy to find it! Also, some hold the view that the labor on wikipedia is divided among content providers and content formatters and maybe Redtigerxyz is just among the former
[5]. Either way, in my experience it is more rewarding to pick a few articles that interest you, try to improve them without really getting emotionally tied to the results why do I get the feeling that I have read that philosophy somewhere before :-) or overwhelmed by all the articles that need improvement, or all the drama that is ever present (watchlist ArbCom, ANI or Jimbo's talk page to see what I am talking about). I too occasionally have to remind myself that this is supposed to be fun, and that even if all my wikipedia edits go down the drain there is always real life as back-up :-)
Abecedare
08:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out the problems with the criticism section in the argumentative Indian. I read the critical review and added excerpts that summarized the legitimate criticism of the work.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.114.144 ( talk • contribs)
"There is a more serious distortion of Mughal history. The Mughal emperor Akbar, who ruled from 1556 to 1605, is always compared to Aurangzeb, who ruled from 1658 to 1707. There has long been a 1066 and All That view of these rulers, and it is one to which Sen repeatedly subscribes. Akbar was a good thing because he was nice to Hindus, was non-discriminatory in his policies towards his many and varied subjects, took little account of religion in public affairs, and consequently ran a successful state.
By contrast, Aurangzeb seized power illegitimately, espoused religious causes, was a fundamentalist Islamic bigot and implemented policies that discriminated against his non-Muslim subjects, which was all a bad thing and caused the downfall of the Mughal Empire. But this is a grossly over-simplified account of Akbar, whose reign saw some pretty bloody politics and whose position on religion seems not too far removed from that of contemporary European princes with their resort to axe and fire. And it misreads the whole of the second half of the 17th century. Of course Aurangzeb was keen on Islam (or on a particular strain of it), and his piety spilled out into public policy. Of course he was cruel to his subjects, among them Hindus. But under Aurangzeb the Mughal Empire reached its greatest extent and successfully incorporated military, political and social elites of all religions into its structure. By the time of his death, the Mughals had created an extraordinarily sophisticated political and economic regime commanding consent despite its intolerances and its religious enthusiasm."
FYI I have given a final warning for the blanking that has been going on on that page. [7] Would you please take a look and see if there are further violations? Not very many editors have been watching this page. Is there some way to simply get more editors who do not have any POV to put that page on their watch lists? I feel that for many of the pages that have conflict, one step would be to simply request neutral editors to begin watching simply for enforcement of Wiki policies. Buddhipriya 08:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I've got hold of the book and read a couple of essays. It is very well cited and should provide useful material to use on several Hinduism/India related pages. I will work on The Argumentative Indian eventally, perhaps I have read the book myself and have a better perspective. Cheers. Abecedare 03:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Abecedare, I've added the Kuru family tree to the Mahabharata page. Thank you for the help and inspiration to keep working on it. Since you seem to have a much greater grasp of overall policy and naming than I: do you think it should go on other article pages? Its own article page? Should we transmigrate the talk page from the sandbox to somewhere so other editors can see why and how we done did what we done did? Thanks, ॐ Priyanath talk 18:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I have identified the article on Shiva as one that I would like to help improve. In doing some edits there I noticed a possible fork growing at History of Shaivism. Would you please place both of those articles on your watch list and assist in figuring out what should go where? Would you agree that the Shiva article is complex in structure and probably needs to be reworked using the same sort of main article methods as we have used on Ganesha? I need help in thinking these things through and not many editors are active on Shiva. Buddhipriya 22:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
No, I any sock-puppeteerer. Furthermore, I have no idea why everyone thinks that I am either user Johnsmitcba or Nikkul. Please lengthen your comment on my talk page and please include specific reasons why everyone picks on me as a sock-puppeteerer. Yes, I did blank my talk page once, but at that time I was a fledgling on Wikipedia. Also, when Fowler&fowler pointed out my mistake, I immediately asked for my decision to be reversed, for I did not know how to do so at that time. Yes, I also archived the India talk page but only because it was getting extremely lengthy. If you want, you can revert my decision. (By the way, I still had some unanswered comments there.) Please, on my talk page, point out what you mean by "suspiciously similar editing patters," as arguing those would be the only way for me to prove my innocence. Thank you. Universe=atom 18:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, Abecedare! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Prodego talk 16:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
POV pushing has resumed on Vedas and I am trying to deal with it is tiresome. Can you please take a look and help determine how best to deal with the edits? Buddhipriya 19:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Howd u find the higher resolution pic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nikkul ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
It looks like I got it from New Scientist. Nature also has an article about it ( summary). Science also confirms it [8]. The recent re-review of Taleyarkhan (which is the subject of your NYT link) comes after the content I added occurred. NYT also has no mention of Forringer in that article, or in its timeline. — BRIAN 0918 • 2007-05-13 06:25Z
Hello Abecedare, would you mind taking a look at the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu article? I can't help but feel that one particular user is pushing a certain POV on the page by deleting material. The article Buddhism and Hinduism also, to me, reads like well-written Buddhist propaganda. Am I wrong, or is something amiss? Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 10:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
Did you know that the article History of India is a candidate for Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive (shortened to WP:ACID)? If you want it to be the article for the week (and perhaps get it to Featured Article status), perhaps you would want to go the page and vote. Thank you. Universe=atom• Talk• Contributions• 15:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Abecedare, I finally have some time to start doing a major revision of the page, which I had originally planned to do much earlier (after the RfC in March). I hope you'll have some time to help with the revision, or at least to give feedback and criticism. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Asked permission from Premshree to use the images. Let him reply and then keep/delete. Chanakyathegreat 04:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
yeah thats good, and the citation is not necessary. i just read this [9], so i though id put the tag up. IP198 20:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The following are my personal views: We all have sung 'Jana Gana Mana' a thousand times right from grade one. So tell me aren't the lyrics:
Now I request you to read this: It included the 'hindi version' and the fact that it was adopted in Hindi. Sources I have cited include and now read the
current version. Isn't incomplete? The following are others’ views: user:Ragib (worth having a look at one of his edit summaries-) reverted the edits saying you cannot include the Hindi version info and the adoption in Hindi info no matter which site you cite because the 'original' discussion this doesn't 'include' anything about Hindi version! But as you know after discussions a committee is always formed to act over it and make final amends after discussion. Also if you go by that argument it doesn’t even include the fact that
As all these rules and regulations are not discussed it is clear that we cannot make the discussion transcripts our Bible. You may even see a link in that same site leading http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php which includes the Hindi lyrics. (as a matter of fact all these sites are maintained by National Informatics Centre (NIC). It is a premier Science and Technology Organisation under the Department of Information Technology of the Government of India actively working for the past three decades in the area of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Applications in the Government Sector. To read more see: Homepage of NIC) and also if you see http://www.whitehouse.gov/national-anthem/newdelhi-full.html which is clearly titled India National Anthem: Jana-Gana-Mana (Thou Art the Ruler of All Minds) Original Hindi Words: Latin Transliteration. Even Manorama Yearbook 2003 Pg.519 which has full lyrics, states the-Jana-gana-mana-adhinayaka, jaya he version.
Even the talkpage of Jana Gana Mana (please read it) has had many futile debates. With allegations by user:Sarvagnya that Hindi is not our National language!!! This is what he has to say
Whereas the article et. sq.343 clearly mentions Hindi as the official language of the Union and the regional languages as official languages of the states. SameerKhan came up with a good suggestion:-
Note: The following opinions on the topic of all the 'quoted' users may have significantly changed in the due course of time. Other participants were- deeptrivia, Apandey, Parthi, Antorjal, User talk:Bakasuprman, Tuncrypt, Deepak D'Souza ppm So, Now should this version(source from whitehouse.gov) be included or not India National Anthem: Jana-Gana-Mana (Thou Art the Ruler of All Minds) Original Hindi Words: Latin Transliteration
|
I have only skimmed through this long debate, so I apologize if I am misunderstanding the issue, but it seems to me that the basic problem is that two "apparently reliable" sources are contradicting each other:
Now it is certainly possible (or even likely depending upon ones POV) that, as
KnowledgeHegemony says, the Hindi version was stipulated to be the official anthem in some prior discussion of the Constituent Assembly (or one of its committees) and therefore is not explicitly mentioned on Jan. 24 1950. Alternatively, maybe a later act of the Indian parliament designated the Hindi version to be the "official" version. If that is the case, we need to provide a suitable reference that attests that to be true, since no amount of debate on wikipedia can turn "plausibility" into "verified".
One other point: I saw that there is much debate on the articles talk page about accent, languages, pronunciation etc. While I found them to be personally enlightening, (with all dues respect) they are irrelevant. If the Constituent assembly/ Indian parliament says, in all its wisdom (or lack thereof :-) ) that the "Hindi version of Jana Gana Mana" is the national anthem then it is so, even if all scholars unanimously contend that the language of a poem cannot be changed by decree.
So IMO what we need is evidentiary support for/against the Hindi version being the official one, rather than academic debates. Are there any off-line reliable sources on the topic ? If someone has a reference, I can try to look it up.
A possible resolution for now would be to retain the current Bangla version and its transliteration, while adding a sentence to the effect,
Some Government of India publications state that the Hindi version of the first stanza of the Bangla poem "Jana Gana Mana", was adopted as India's national anthem by the Constituent Assembly of India.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php |title=National Anthem |accessdate=2007-05-18 |work= National Portal of India| publisher = NIC, [[Government of India ]]}}</ref>
Abecedare 20:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in joining a team effort to bring the Tantra article to featured article status.
If so, please see Talk:Tantra#Team Tantra
TheRingess ( talk) 18:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
No matter wether the sites are commercial or tourism website, the statements i have qouted in the article are not violating WP:NPOV and they are not controversial. Justify your comments. thanks, Sushant gupta ( talk · contribs) 09:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
==Himachal pradesh fac- i am just spitting out my frustration this is my first FAC and i have completely (A-Z) re-wrote this article. now what do you people (not you) want from me. To act as a machine. somewhere or the other you will find errors. umhhh. do me a favour check out the history (of Jan, Feb, march and then May 19th onwards) you will get the answer. i am not saying check each and every day's history but randomly you pick it up (in increasing order). you guys (not you) are humilating me when you comment on spell errors and full stops. can't you people improve it yourself. you people (not you) are good in commenting and opposing. Most of the wikipedians behave as they are unaware of the topic and they can't edit that page, but don't they even know about grammatic mistakes and spell errors. i am sorry for writing this message. Sushant gupta ( talk · contribs) 15:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
While I rarely edit political articles, I recently added some sourced material to Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh that immediately resulted in reversion and softening by a WP:SPA that may be a sock of some sort. I have not dealt much with this type of reversion issue. When Orpheus reverted the reversion, he was of course reverted. Can you take a look and give advice on how to deal with this type of situation by aggressive single-purpose accounts? As a member of the Harmonious Editing Club I try to avoid reversions, so this creates a difficult situation in dealing with the aggressive socks. Buddhipriya 03:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have posted my views on the Arb Com case and have referenced your posting. I would value any feedback you have on what I have said. I do not feel sure that my rambling essay is "evidence" so I put it on the talk page, which may or may not have been appropriate: [10] Buddhipriya 08:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Abecedare,
OK, thanks for your note. I do think that, on a subject as vast as Hinduism, there is room for a "further reading" section. Please note that some of the references given in the "References" section are extremely oriented: Frawley for instance, who is nothing else than a charlatan. Also, please consider the problematic first sentence of this article. Orthodox Hinduism states the "Northern" origin of the anciant Rishis. That may be symbolic, of course, but at least this should be mentionned. All the stuff about NAIT is rooted into political considerations that were foreign to Hindus during millenaries.
Regards,
TwoHorned 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Abecedare,
Academic texts can be mentionned, of course, but why not stand also on texts written by Hindu Saints ? Second, the question of chronology in Hinduism is not solvable. May I recommend you to read the first chapters of Guénon's Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines on this subject ? The "oral" transmission anterior to Vyasa is completely undetermined in length. And, yes, you're right Vedic text themselves are apurusheya : why not mention that ? Also, quite an interesting point: didn't Tilak himself write a book called "The Artic home in the Vedas" despite all the known relations between Tilak and Savarkar w.r.t. NAIT ? TwoHorned 21:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I have avoided getting into the discussion about Aryan theories, but I did look up what J. P. Mallory had to say about the Arctic theories in his mainstream book In Search of the Indo-Europeans (Thames & Hudson: 1989, ISBN 0-500-27616-1). The Arctic claim is so unusual that Mallory begins his chapter on "The Indo-European Homeland Problem" with these sentences:
"We begin our search for the homeland of the Indo-Europeans with the deceptively optimistic claim that it has already been located. For who would look further north than Lokomanya Tilak and Georg Biedenkapp who traced the earliest Aryans to the North Pole? Or who would venture a homeland further south than North Africa, further west than the Atlantic or further east than the shores of the Pacific, all of which have seriously been proposed as 'cradles' of the Indo-Europeans? This quest for the origins of the Indo-Europeans has all the fascination of an electric light in the open air on a summer night: it tends to attract every species of scholar or would-be savant who can take pen in hand. It also shows a remarkable ability to mesmerize even scholars of outstanding ability to wander far beyond the realm of reasonable speculation to provide yet another example of academic lunacy." (Mallory 1989, p. 143)
The reference to Tilak's monograph takes place in a paragraph where Mallory mentions various major camps among the theories, saying "Some scholars struggled to maintain a middle course, others provided comic relief.... Cokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak provided the world with an entire monograph marshalling all the available mythological evidence to prove that the Aryan homeland was the North Pole.[note 38] This incredible theory gained at least one supporter when George Biedenkapp, flushed with enthusiasm for Tilak's hypothesis, produced his own book summarizing the Indian savant's work in German and added further evidence of his own. The Icelandic linguist Alexander Johannesson conconcted another bizarre theory that related Indo-European roots to bird calls (Proto-Indo-European *ker- was imitative of a raven), grunts, and loud natural sounds which, according to him, could best be heard on the shores of the Baltic Sea." (p.269)
[note 38]"Tilak's 'polar theory' for Aryan origins was not a bizarre quirk of a single individual but rather the culmination of an extremely long tradition of analysis of Indo-Aryan myth, for example, poems that indicate a home in the north where a day and a night lasted six months each, the Pole star rises to the zenith, and so on. A modern review of this 'northern cycle' of myths can be found in Bongard-Levin (1980) who argues that Indo-Aryan, Iranian and Scythian traditions (and by cultural contact also Greeks) all shared a common mythology of a northern mountainous land which, he argues, could only have been acquired in their prior common home on the Pontic-Caspian steppe." (p. 277, note 38)
Buddhipriya 00:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for inviting me to this discussion, but I have little to contribute, mainly because I have yet to find a satisfying scholarly treatment of the origins of Hinduism. I could write extensively on my personal take of the issue, but that isn't what these talk pages are for. I'll just note that (a) not having read Bongard-Levin's book, I'm not aware of any "extremely long tradition of analysis of Indo-Aryan myth" pointing to Arctic origins; (b) I have no idea what "oral transmission anterior to Vyasa" could mean in relation to issues of fact (as opposed to Puranic myths and mystical fantasies erected thereon); and (c) there is no evidence (textual, archaeological, etc.) to trace the Hinduism of pujas, temples and idols any further back than about the start of the Common Era. An overwhelming majority of Hindus don't know a word of the Vedas. If anyone is reading scripture on the bus back home from work, it's probably the Gita. And so on. Far too much ink, liquid and electronic, is spent on "high philosophy" and hoarily ancient origins (the hoarier the "better") as if these could illuminate popular Hinduism in the rank and file. IMHO. Sorry, I wound up ranting anyway. rudra 04:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
As rudra points out, it is just a matter of separating historical studies from mythology and from mysticist authors. "Hinduism" is an umbrella term, by definition applicable to all religious traditions, however disparate, that originate in India. It "originates" with the onset of sources, viz. the Vedas, although what we know as "typical" Hinduism today originates in the early centuries CE. We can very well discuss Puranic mythology, as mythology, and we can discuss the various tenets of mysticist authors of the various Hindu reform movements (Tilak, Aurobindo and what not), as 19th century "romanticist" ( Viking revival style) currents. Just don't conflate things. dab (𒁳) 08:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Note: I have copied the above comments to the Hinduism Talk page since TwoHorned chose to continue the discussion there. Abecedare 18:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
You are absolutely correct that you have never questioned my motivation. I should never question yours either. Maybe I have misspoken. [I shall remove that comment right now.] All I want to say is that if we together can improve the article, let us do so. Let neither of us try to defend what is there. It will be there anyway, unless it is suitably emended. Okay? Thanks. Kanchanamala 02:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how I stumbled upon this article. But you are absolutely correct. There is one statement in that article ["fifth veda"] to which the reference from Guru Nanak Dev's "Japuji Sahib" can be added as a citation. It will add some weight to the article. Please take a look at it. Thanks. Kanchanamala 22:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The day after all of those Maleabroad socks were expelled we now have User:Algorithm0 perhaps testing the waters? Compare User:Algorithm1. Just a heads up that this looks suspicious to me. Buddhipriya 22:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
See this and let me know if you have any changes to suggest (or just edit it yourself !). I'll leave a message with Aldux to make sure that this does not violate any wikipedia guidelines or spirit, before I advertise it to interested editors. Abecedare 00:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
<deindent> I made some minor tweaks for reasons explained in the edit summaries. Of course there are many other socks of Maleabroad, both blocked and unblocked, that can be added to the list ... but that task is not urgent at all since the aim is to stop currently active vandalism. Once I hear back from Aldux about the appropriateness of this effort, we can inform other interested users such as Orpheus, GourangUK etc. Hopefully the time we invested today, will save us some time in the future. Thanks for all your help! Abecedare 02:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I am pretty sure Ms. Daniels does not control that account. I think this because of the timing. That edit was made at about the time she showed the edit on TV. But the show wasn't live... So she must be this anon, and that user a fan. That is why I blocked. Prodego talk 02:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I have moved a refactored summary of the conversation we had to the following location trying to get more input. I hope you will comment on it there. Talk:IAST#More_on_use_of_IAST. I also noticed that the category for "Articles containing IAST" just disappeared and I am wondering if Template:IAST will be next, as there is ongoing confusion about the difference between the role of the IAST tag to specify a romanization method and the role of the Unicode tag to specify an implementation method for IAST glyphs. I would like to expand the text on the Template:IAST to discuss these issues but I do not have any clear idea on how Template pages are supposed to be maintained. Is this something you can help me with? I have set up a work page at User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage to consolidate notes from various places. Buddhipriya 20:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just saw your msg on my talk page : have been out of internet contact (yeah, that happens more often than one thinks it is possible :)) for a few days. I'll pitch in with whatever I can after reading the discussions on the article talk page. Thanks! - Sdsouza 15:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we get that deleted? It just attracts vandalism at India and I don't consider it particularly useful at the Pilgrimage page. The Behnam 03:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I guess this means he's finally made it in the big leagues, then. Good idea to keep a page to coordinate this - I'll do my bit to keep it up to date. Haven't had much time lately due to the non-electronic world but I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Orpheus 05:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Can you help me out at Talk:Devadasi? I don't know much about it but two users keep fighting about some caste issue across several pages. If you know stuff about it I'd appreciate some help at resolving that dispute. The Behnam 04:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try and help as much as I can. - Aksi_great ( talk) 17:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
(Resetting indent) Hi. I have blocked all these users as they have been confirmed as Maleabroad socks.
Do inform me if any other accounts pop up. Let's wait for some more days before we set a range block over the entire college IP. - Aksi_great ( talk) 18:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps maleabroad has a point there, rather than directing to culture of India, it may as well redir to Hinduism as Hinduism is not exclusively Indian and Indian culture is not exclusively Hindu. Baka man 03:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Range_blocks says:
"These are sometimes used when a problem user responds to several IP blocks by changing IP address. They will affect at least some legitimate users, so should only be used when the disruptive behavior is frequent and severe enough to make other methods ineffective. Use careful judgment and make them as brief as possible. When making a range block, an administrator should note the range in the block reason. If you do not do so, and a block is appealed, it is impossible to tell what the blocked IP is."
I understand that Wikipedia policy dislikes use of range blocks for universities, but isn't Maleabroad a perfect test case for that policy? There must have been other instances similar to this.
I think it is at least reading up on this procedure. It can't be that uncommon to block a school or there would be no need for Template:Schoolblock, which includes clearly-defined appeal procedures for users who may contact Wikipedia directly if the block creates problems for them.
Buddhipriya 03:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I recently found a forum post by our mutual friend which I've added to the fan club page. It's quite illuminating, as are the rest of his posts on that board. Have a look and let me know what you think. Orpheus 07:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
(Outdent) Hi, I've been asked to share an approach that I tried out last fall. I was dealing with a school district in the United States, not a university in Canada, but maybe the same basic strategy would yield results. Basically while I was vandal fighting I noticed that a particular school IP had been blocked 11 times during the past calendar year, and the blocks other sysops had imposed had been as long as a month. So I wondered whether the school was aware of the problem. Very simple solution: I clicked the IP info link at the IP talk page, from there I went through a WHOIS option until I got an e-mail address for the tech office. Then I wrote a polite message, hoping I had contacted the right person, identifying myself as a Wikipedia administrator, and summarizing the problem. The IT department got back to me promptly and we followed up with a telephone conference the next day. It turned out that the entire school district was routed through the same IP address.
I assured them that students and teachers could still read Wikipedia and that people who already had accounts were still able to edit our site, then explained the situation in greater detail and sent a few links to verify what I was talking about. The problems had probably come from a single group of students (kids who vandalize often write each others' first names as jokes). The district rep was very polite and cooperative and loved my suggestion: assign those children to improve a Wikipedia article under a teacher's supervision - perhaps about local history (this happened to be Plymouth, Massachusetts).
I hope some kind of similar win-win approach could help your dilemma. Durova Charge! 00:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
You may want to look at the book noted here. Baka man 02:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What is your opinion on this, it's a phenomenon ripping Wikipedia apart from the seams, with fanatical supporters of Swami Vivekananda and his RSS revising history to make people believe lies. Think of all the children that enter Wikipedia and see this revisionist history and will need deprogramming in the future. I commend our maintsream admins. I support the neutrality and common non-OR sense of our admins. By the way, did you know that Swami Vivekananda himself used to write propaganda and publish it in Voice of India. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.178.139.138 ( talk) 23:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC).
Glad you found it useful! I too found it contained well-balanced article outlining the diverse aspects surrounding the topic. Though not a primer on Hinduism, nor a substitute for studying primary or in-depth scholarly articles, I found its level of treatment of the topics matched my own level of knowledge and interest. Hopefully after reading it, you'll be able to contribute even more to wikipedia - although that is hard to imagine. :-) Abecedare 23:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
1. One reason why I have not sought to actually edit the articles on Hindu and Hinduism is, since you took upon yourself to improve the articles, I thought it would be better to team up with you and assist you. You do the combat, and I'll drive the humvee.
2. I have taken interest in the two articles because I am a Hindu, and I would like the articles to represent the Hindus and their traditions accurately. I am in a position to make suggestions in that regard. Whether any suggestion can be included in the article would be your lookout, and I would respect your decision, because you seem to know the Wikipedia conventions pretty well.
3. I have little need to rely on any dictionary or translation only because, I can read and write in Devanagari, and I have native fluency in Sanskrit. If I were a contemporary of the pioneers who compiled the Sanskrit-English dictionaries [which are still being widely consulted by scholars], I would have shared my knowledge with them, especially with the European scholars who depended upon the native pundits.
4. As for citations, I don't have to agree with them. I am keenly aware that Wikipedia editors rely on citations, but I don't have to. In the interest of accurate representation of the Hindus and their traditions, I deem it proper to voice my concerns. If other editors can do nothing about my concerns because of the Wikipedia constraints, I fully understand it. I don't get upset with them, and I wish and hope that they don't get upset with me.
5. Are we still a team?
Thanks. Kanchanamala 02:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, Thanks for the praise on PINQ! What was that about publishing limericks? -- Longhairandabeard 06:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the elaborations, as they really helped. I guess my laziness superseded my judgment and as a result, I used the length of the discussion as a pretense of whether or not the debate was still a "hot-topic." Also, per my subconscious selective reading, I saw alphachimp's comment but not yours, figures doesn't it :P . I'm glad that the argument was resolved far before my mistaken (i.e. ignorant and biased) post on Jimbo Wales' talk page, and I apologize for any confusion / instigation I may have caused. Again, if you missed the other 3 or so times that I've mentioned it, I'm sorry :-) ~ Step trip 22:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Tobias Conradi ShivaIdol 11:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Excellent rewrite. Can you keep going with other sections? I know we have an outside copyeditor on the way, but you know the material. I feel strongly that the reference to dharma in the lead should go, as I have explained on the talk page for the article. It is a keyword. Also Subramuniya's book claiming that "Lemurian scrolls" support his belief that human origins can be traced to space travel to Earth from the Pleiades millions of years ago limits his credibility as a WP:RS. See: [2]. I therefore object to the use of Subramuniyaswami as a WP:RS for any statement of fact regarding Ganesha, but I consider him an interesting source to represent a particular devotional opinion. I would prefere to see statements by him prefaced by the fact they are coming from him, and I feel they should not go in the lead. Buddhipriya 03:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
<reset indent>
I'll surprise you on this one - I would consider that edit to be in the top 10% of all edits made on wikiepedia! That is not to say, that it cannot be improved in terms of language, inline referencing and conformation with wikipedia guidelines and style book, but on the positive side Redtigerxyz does cite a Marathi book reference (and note that while his references on Ganesha page were found to be inappropriate for the article, he did not misrepresent the source, unlike what we saw at The Argumentative Indian) and lays a foundation for interested editors to come in and build upon. He also (unlike Maleabroad and his socks) seems to be editing in good faith and while his sources may be different from the ones you or I prefer, he doesn't seem to be pushing an ideologicalPOV. It is true that throwing in such rough-hewn material on a already Good or Featured article would be inadvisable, it can be the first step in
improving stubs.
My larger point is this: Wikipedia has more than 1.7M articles, two-thirds of which are less than 2KB
[4] and less than 0.08% are
FA level - so if one goes looking for crap, it is frustratingly easy to find it! Also, some hold the view that the labor on wikipedia is divided among content providers and content formatters and maybe Redtigerxyz is just among the former
[5]. Either way, in my experience it is more rewarding to pick a few articles that interest you, try to improve them without really getting emotionally tied to the results why do I get the feeling that I have read that philosophy somewhere before :-) or overwhelmed by all the articles that need improvement, or all the drama that is ever present (watchlist ArbCom, ANI or Jimbo's talk page to see what I am talking about). I too occasionally have to remind myself that this is supposed to be fun, and that even if all my wikipedia edits go down the drain there is always real life as back-up :-)
Abecedare
08:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out the problems with the criticism section in the argumentative Indian. I read the critical review and added excerpts that summarized the legitimate criticism of the work.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.114.144 ( talk • contribs)
"There is a more serious distortion of Mughal history. The Mughal emperor Akbar, who ruled from 1556 to 1605, is always compared to Aurangzeb, who ruled from 1658 to 1707. There has long been a 1066 and All That view of these rulers, and it is one to which Sen repeatedly subscribes. Akbar was a good thing because he was nice to Hindus, was non-discriminatory in his policies towards his many and varied subjects, took little account of religion in public affairs, and consequently ran a successful state.
By contrast, Aurangzeb seized power illegitimately, espoused religious causes, was a fundamentalist Islamic bigot and implemented policies that discriminated against his non-Muslim subjects, which was all a bad thing and caused the downfall of the Mughal Empire. But this is a grossly over-simplified account of Akbar, whose reign saw some pretty bloody politics and whose position on religion seems not too far removed from that of contemporary European princes with their resort to axe and fire. And it misreads the whole of the second half of the 17th century. Of course Aurangzeb was keen on Islam (or on a particular strain of it), and his piety spilled out into public policy. Of course he was cruel to his subjects, among them Hindus. But under Aurangzeb the Mughal Empire reached its greatest extent and successfully incorporated military, political and social elites of all religions into its structure. By the time of his death, the Mughals had created an extraordinarily sophisticated political and economic regime commanding consent despite its intolerances and its religious enthusiasm."
FYI I have given a final warning for the blanking that has been going on on that page. [7] Would you please take a look and see if there are further violations? Not very many editors have been watching this page. Is there some way to simply get more editors who do not have any POV to put that page on their watch lists? I feel that for many of the pages that have conflict, one step would be to simply request neutral editors to begin watching simply for enforcement of Wiki policies. Buddhipriya 08:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I've got hold of the book and read a couple of essays. It is very well cited and should provide useful material to use on several Hinduism/India related pages. I will work on The Argumentative Indian eventally, perhaps I have read the book myself and have a better perspective. Cheers. Abecedare 03:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Abecedare, I've added the Kuru family tree to the Mahabharata page. Thank you for the help and inspiration to keep working on it. Since you seem to have a much greater grasp of overall policy and naming than I: do you think it should go on other article pages? Its own article page? Should we transmigrate the talk page from the sandbox to somewhere so other editors can see why and how we done did what we done did? Thanks, ॐ Priyanath talk 18:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I have identified the article on Shiva as one that I would like to help improve. In doing some edits there I noticed a possible fork growing at History of Shaivism. Would you please place both of those articles on your watch list and assist in figuring out what should go where? Would you agree that the Shiva article is complex in structure and probably needs to be reworked using the same sort of main article methods as we have used on Ganesha? I need help in thinking these things through and not many editors are active on Shiva. Buddhipriya 22:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
No, I any sock-puppeteerer. Furthermore, I have no idea why everyone thinks that I am either user Johnsmitcba or Nikkul. Please lengthen your comment on my talk page and please include specific reasons why everyone picks on me as a sock-puppeteerer. Yes, I did blank my talk page once, but at that time I was a fledgling on Wikipedia. Also, when Fowler&fowler pointed out my mistake, I immediately asked for my decision to be reversed, for I did not know how to do so at that time. Yes, I also archived the India talk page but only because it was getting extremely lengthy. If you want, you can revert my decision. (By the way, I still had some unanswered comments there.) Please, on my talk page, point out what you mean by "suspiciously similar editing patters," as arguing those would be the only way for me to prove my innocence. Thank you. Universe=atom 18:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your interest in VandalProof, Abecedare! You have now been added to the list of authorized users, so if you haven't already, simply download and install VandalProof from our main page. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me or any other moderator, or you can post a message on the discussion page. Prodego talk 16:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
POV pushing has resumed on Vedas and I am trying to deal with it is tiresome. Can you please take a look and help determine how best to deal with the edits? Buddhipriya 19:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Howd u find the higher resolution pic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nikkul ( talk • contribs) 02:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
It looks like I got it from New Scientist. Nature also has an article about it ( summary). Science also confirms it [8]. The recent re-review of Taleyarkhan (which is the subject of your NYT link) comes after the content I added occurred. NYT also has no mention of Forringer in that article, or in its timeline. — BRIAN 0918 • 2007-05-13 06:25Z
Hello Abecedare, would you mind taking a look at the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu article? I can't help but feel that one particular user is pushing a certain POV on the page by deleting material. The article Buddhism and Hinduism also, to me, reads like well-written Buddhist propaganda. Am I wrong, or is something amiss? Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 10:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
Did you know that the article History of India is a candidate for Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive (shortened to WP:ACID)? If you want it to be the article for the week (and perhaps get it to Featured Article status), perhaps you would want to go the page and vote. Thank you. Universe=atom• Talk• Contributions• 15:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Abecedare, I finally have some time to start doing a major revision of the page, which I had originally planned to do much earlier (after the RfC in March). I hope you'll have some time to help with the revision, or at least to give feedback and criticism. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Asked permission from Premshree to use the images. Let him reply and then keep/delete. Chanakyathegreat 04:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
yeah thats good, and the citation is not necessary. i just read this [9], so i though id put the tag up. IP198 20:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The following are my personal views: We all have sung 'Jana Gana Mana' a thousand times right from grade one. So tell me aren't the lyrics:
Now I request you to read this: It included the 'hindi version' and the fact that it was adopted in Hindi. Sources I have cited include and now read the
current version. Isn't incomplete? The following are others’ views: user:Ragib (worth having a look at one of his edit summaries-) reverted the edits saying you cannot include the Hindi version info and the adoption in Hindi info no matter which site you cite because the 'original' discussion this doesn't 'include' anything about Hindi version! But as you know after discussions a committee is always formed to act over it and make final amends after discussion. Also if you go by that argument it doesn’t even include the fact that
As all these rules and regulations are not discussed it is clear that we cannot make the discussion transcripts our Bible. You may even see a link in that same site leading http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php which includes the Hindi lyrics. (as a matter of fact all these sites are maintained by National Informatics Centre (NIC). It is a premier Science and Technology Organisation under the Department of Information Technology of the Government of India actively working for the past three decades in the area of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Applications in the Government Sector. To read more see: Homepage of NIC) and also if you see http://www.whitehouse.gov/national-anthem/newdelhi-full.html which is clearly titled India National Anthem: Jana-Gana-Mana (Thou Art the Ruler of All Minds) Original Hindi Words: Latin Transliteration. Even Manorama Yearbook 2003 Pg.519 which has full lyrics, states the-Jana-gana-mana-adhinayaka, jaya he version.
Even the talkpage of Jana Gana Mana (please read it) has had many futile debates. With allegations by user:Sarvagnya that Hindi is not our National language!!! This is what he has to say
Whereas the article et. sq.343 clearly mentions Hindi as the official language of the Union and the regional languages as official languages of the states. SameerKhan came up with a good suggestion:-
Note: The following opinions on the topic of all the 'quoted' users may have significantly changed in the due course of time. Other participants were- deeptrivia, Apandey, Parthi, Antorjal, User talk:Bakasuprman, Tuncrypt, Deepak D'Souza ppm So, Now should this version(source from whitehouse.gov) be included or not India National Anthem: Jana-Gana-Mana (Thou Art the Ruler of All Minds) Original Hindi Words: Latin Transliteration
|
I have only skimmed through this long debate, so I apologize if I am misunderstanding the issue, but it seems to me that the basic problem is that two "apparently reliable" sources are contradicting each other:
Now it is certainly possible (or even likely depending upon ones POV) that, as
KnowledgeHegemony says, the Hindi version was stipulated to be the official anthem in some prior discussion of the Constituent Assembly (or one of its committees) and therefore is not explicitly mentioned on Jan. 24 1950. Alternatively, maybe a later act of the Indian parliament designated the Hindi version to be the "official" version. If that is the case, we need to provide a suitable reference that attests that to be true, since no amount of debate on wikipedia can turn "plausibility" into "verified".
One other point: I saw that there is much debate on the articles talk page about accent, languages, pronunciation etc. While I found them to be personally enlightening, (with all dues respect) they are irrelevant. If the Constituent assembly/ Indian parliament says, in all its wisdom (or lack thereof :-) ) that the "Hindi version of Jana Gana Mana" is the national anthem then it is so, even if all scholars unanimously contend that the language of a poem cannot be changed by decree.
So IMO what we need is evidentiary support for/against the Hindi version being the official one, rather than academic debates. Are there any off-line reliable sources on the topic ? If someone has a reference, I can try to look it up.
A possible resolution for now would be to retain the current Bangla version and its transliteration, while adding a sentence to the effect,
Some Government of India publications state that the Hindi version of the first stanza of the Bangla poem "Jana Gana Mana", was adopted as India's national anthem by the Constituent Assembly of India.<ref>{{cite web |url=http://india.gov.in/knowindia/national_anthem.php |title=National Anthem |accessdate=2007-05-18 |work= National Portal of India| publisher = NIC, [[Government of India ]]}}</ref>
Abecedare 20:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in joining a team effort to bring the Tantra article to featured article status.
If so, please see Talk:Tantra#Team Tantra
TheRingess ( talk) 18:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
No matter wether the sites are commercial or tourism website, the statements i have qouted in the article are not violating WP:NPOV and they are not controversial. Justify your comments. thanks, Sushant gupta ( talk · contribs) 09:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
==Himachal pradesh fac- i am just spitting out my frustration this is my first FAC and i have completely (A-Z) re-wrote this article. now what do you people (not you) want from me. To act as a machine. somewhere or the other you will find errors. umhhh. do me a favour check out the history (of Jan, Feb, march and then May 19th onwards) you will get the answer. i am not saying check each and every day's history but randomly you pick it up (in increasing order). you guys (not you) are humilating me when you comment on spell errors and full stops. can't you people improve it yourself. you people (not you) are good in commenting and opposing. Most of the wikipedians behave as they are unaware of the topic and they can't edit that page, but don't they even know about grammatic mistakes and spell errors. i am sorry for writing this message. Sushant gupta ( talk · contribs) 15:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
While I rarely edit political articles, I recently added some sourced material to Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh that immediately resulted in reversion and softening by a WP:SPA that may be a sock of some sort. I have not dealt much with this type of reversion issue. When Orpheus reverted the reversion, he was of course reverted. Can you take a look and give advice on how to deal with this type of situation by aggressive single-purpose accounts? As a member of the Harmonious Editing Club I try to avoid reversions, so this creates a difficult situation in dealing with the aggressive socks. Buddhipriya 03:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have posted my views on the Arb Com case and have referenced your posting. I would value any feedback you have on what I have said. I do not feel sure that my rambling essay is "evidence" so I put it on the talk page, which may or may not have been appropriate: [10] Buddhipriya 08:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)