(Redirected from
User:Miacek/M. se fâche)
Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Putinland
- I have a suggestion. I think in one of the Eastern Europe arbitration cases it was suggested that some kind of noticeboard for EE matters/conflicts be established. I don't know if such a thing exists, but it clearly isn't working. I think we really need such a common board with a more limited task of sorting out non-encyclopedic, politically motivated stuff like eSStonia, Putinjugend etc. It would make sense finding a consensus concerning such stubs and establish a threshold on notability. Every encyclopedia would need this. Thoughts? Alternatively, if someone wants to continue setting up political battleground stubs, I'd list here long overdue Ansipism, Putin-Dobby, IlveSS, Obamajugend, Dorogoy Leonid Ilyich («Дорогой Леонид Ильич»), Näksip, Nikita Kukuruznik, all of which have at least quite a number of google hits. My vote for Putinland is delete, as it's simply non-notable. Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof!) 09:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Some of these are silly, but some aren't. Obamajugend, for example, is a real wacky conspiracy theory. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 14:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- I also wonder what do you think of my idea of establishing a noticeboard/taskforce or whatchamacallit, which would unite Russian, Baltic and other EE Wikipedians with the aim of reducing nationalist
battleground attitudes? I found a
Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board, but few people seem to use it.--
Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (
woof!) 16:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- The taboo policies prohibit me from discussing this in public. If you still want my thoughts, send me an email.
Διγουρεν
Εμπρος! 23:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's a great idea. I suggest setting up a subpage to decide upon standards for articles such as this. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- The taboo policies prohibit me from discussing this in public. If you still want my thoughts, send me an email.
Διγουρεν
Εμπρος! 23:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Miacek's opinions on those stubs
- With regard to Putinjugend, I think it would suffice to have a sentence in the article Nashi mentioning this neologism. Wikipedia should not be news wire.
- ESStonia is unfortunately more widely used by Russian public, however, the title is inherently unsuitable for an encyclopedia. E.g. a section in Anti-Estonian sentiment would be OK.
- Phone Call to Putin is supposedly “widely known in Russia″, however, no proof for such an assumption has been presented. An article on Alexey Mikheyev and the court decision would suit, I think.
- Putinland is a random term I googled and mentioned here. An article was set up soon after.-- Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof!) 16:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- The Phone call to Putin had an easy solution, for it was simply an article about a particular court case, rather than the neologism itself. In my opinions others also have an easy solution of merely deleting them all. However, it seems like not an option here, so I would argue for creation of an article devoted to pejorative political slang/jargon/neologisms, with esstonia, putinland and possibly many others as particular examples rather than standalone articles. It would be hard however to keep OR, in particular SYNTH, out, but I will try to look for suitable references. ( Igny ( talk) 22:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC))
- Alternatively Putinland could redirect to Putinism, eSStonia to Anti-Estonian sentiment, Putinjugend to Pro-Kremlin youth groups, etc. The point is that these terms are out there in the media, so people will be doing searches in Wikipedia, so it makes sense to have them redirect to a relevant article where the full context could be explained. Martintg ( talk) 04:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with eSStonia and Putinjugend. Putinland and Putinism should be merged/redirected to
Vladimir Putin. The two list articles should probably be deleted, add your comments
here regarding those two.
Pocopocopocopoco (
talk) 04:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have redirected Putinland to Vladimir Putin and Putinjugend to Nashi (youth movement). Instead of taking Putinland back to AfD and having it deleted, and although the term is highly unlikely to be a search term, it is directed to the subject of its article. Putinjugend to Nashi, as the very few sources which refer to the term do so in an overwhelming number of cases in referring to Nashi; but even then it is a not a widely used term and has to be dealt with as per WP:UNDUE in the Nashi article itself. Russavia Dialogue 16:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with eSStonia and Putinjugend. Putinland and Putinism should be merged/redirected to
Vladimir Putin. The two list articles should probably be deleted, add your comments
here regarding those two.
Pocopocopocopoco (
talk) 04:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Two more articles added here by User:Pocopocopocopoco
- List of journalists killed in Russia. Not a neologism but a indiscriminant list. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk)
- List of journalists killed in Tajikistan. Not in eastern europe but since the above is there I'll add this one as well. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk)
- These lists are valid, however, they are presented in such a way that paints a POV that indicates Putin is behind all of them. Considering the authors behind them I am not surprised however, and I will qualify this, in that look how those murdered between 1991-1999 are completely ommitted; I began adding some of the early 1990s ones. It is a verifiable fact that more journalists were killed under Yeltsin than under Putin, including
Paul Klebnikov, who was actually pro-Putin (yet, this doesn't stop people such as
Edward Lucas from blaming Putin for his death too ha). If people were more interested in helping to develop an encyclopaedia rather than engaging in advocacy, and presenting all information and POV from the get-go, then this list wouldn't be questioned as it is now, and people such as myself who come along to try and get this balance wouldn't have to do so (and be called pov-pushers). That's my opinions on these lists (and on this area of editing in general). --
Russavia
Dialogue 21:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, even Galina Starovoytova (1998) is missing. I agree that the lists are valid but need much work. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog M. se fâche( woof!) 09:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't see how the above articles are any more encyclopedic than say Military personnel killed in Russia. I agree with you about the POV presentation of these articles. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 02:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Actually
Military personnel killed in Russia could be quite a good list. If you look at
List of Heroes of the Russian Federation, every single one of these are notable people (although most don't yet have articles). However, not all military people who are killed are notable, but such a list could include their name (not necessarily wikilinked), along with other "bio" info such as date killed, what campaign (if valid), what award they received (if any)...in fact I would limit such a list to those people who have received one of the various state awards, such as Medal of Valour, etc. It would be a bloody long list, and would take an immense amount of research to complete, but with strict criteria for inclusion in the list, it could actually be a very valid list and totally encyclopaedic. --
Russavia
Dialogue 15:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- But where do you draw the line with the "list of X (profession) killed in Y (country)" articles? You could end up with a list of people killed for every high risk profession in every country? For example List of firefighters killed in Russia, List of skyscraper window washers killed in Russia, List of oil rig workers killed in Russia the list could go on and on. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
(Redirected from
User:Miacek/M. se fâche)
Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Putinland
- I have a suggestion. I think in one of the Eastern Europe arbitration cases it was suggested that some kind of noticeboard for EE matters/conflicts be established. I don't know if such a thing exists, but it clearly isn't working. I think we really need such a common board with a more limited task of sorting out non-encyclopedic, politically motivated stuff like eSStonia, Putinjugend etc. It would make sense finding a consensus concerning such stubs and establish a threshold on notability. Every encyclopedia would need this. Thoughts? Alternatively, if someone wants to continue setting up political battleground stubs, I'd list here long overdue Ansipism, Putin-Dobby, IlveSS, Obamajugend, Dorogoy Leonid Ilyich («Дорогой Леонид Ильич»), Näksip, Nikita Kukuruznik, all of which have at least quite a number of google hits. My vote for Putinland is delete, as it's simply non-notable. Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof!) 09:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Some of these are silly, but some aren't. Obamajugend, for example, is a real wacky conspiracy theory. Διγουρεν Εμπρος! 14:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- I also wonder what do you think of my idea of establishing a noticeboard/taskforce or whatchamacallit, which would unite Russian, Baltic and other EE Wikipedians with the aim of reducing nationalist
battleground attitudes? I found a
Wikipedia:Eastern European Wikipedians' notice board, but few people seem to use it.--
Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (
woof!) 16:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- The taboo policies prohibit me from discussing this in public. If you still want my thoughts, send me an email.
Διγουρεν
Εμπρος! 23:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think it's a great idea. I suggest setting up a subpage to decide upon standards for articles such as this. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 03:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- The taboo policies prohibit me from discussing this in public. If you still want my thoughts, send me an email.
Διγουρεν
Εμπρος! 23:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Miacek's opinions on those stubs
- With regard to Putinjugend, I think it would suffice to have a sentence in the article Nashi mentioning this neologism. Wikipedia should not be news wire.
- ESStonia is unfortunately more widely used by Russian public, however, the title is inherently unsuitable for an encyclopedia. E.g. a section in Anti-Estonian sentiment would be OK.
- Phone Call to Putin is supposedly “widely known in Russia″, however, no proof for such an assumption has been presented. An article on Alexey Mikheyev and the court decision would suit, I think.
- Putinland is a random term I googled and mentioned here. An article was set up soon after.-- Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog ( woof!) 16:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- The Phone call to Putin had an easy solution, for it was simply an article about a particular court case, rather than the neologism itself. In my opinions others also have an easy solution of merely deleting them all. However, it seems like not an option here, so I would argue for creation of an article devoted to pejorative political slang/jargon/neologisms, with esstonia, putinland and possibly many others as particular examples rather than standalone articles. It would be hard however to keep OR, in particular SYNTH, out, but I will try to look for suitable references. ( Igny ( talk) 22:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC))
- Alternatively Putinland could redirect to Putinism, eSStonia to Anti-Estonian sentiment, Putinjugend to Pro-Kremlin youth groups, etc. The point is that these terms are out there in the media, so people will be doing searches in Wikipedia, so it makes sense to have them redirect to a relevant article where the full context could be explained. Martintg ( talk) 04:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with eSStonia and Putinjugend. Putinland and Putinism should be merged/redirected to
Vladimir Putin. The two list articles should probably be deleted, add your comments
here regarding those two.
Pocopocopocopoco (
talk) 04:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have redirected Putinland to Vladimir Putin and Putinjugend to Nashi (youth movement). Instead of taking Putinland back to AfD and having it deleted, and although the term is highly unlikely to be a search term, it is directed to the subject of its article. Putinjugend to Nashi, as the very few sources which refer to the term do so in an overwhelming number of cases in referring to Nashi; but even then it is a not a widely used term and has to be dealt with as per WP:UNDUE in the Nashi article itself. Russavia Dialogue 16:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with eSStonia and Putinjugend. Putinland and Putinism should be merged/redirected to
Vladimir Putin. The two list articles should probably be deleted, add your comments
here regarding those two.
Pocopocopocopoco (
talk) 04:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Two more articles added here by User:Pocopocopocopoco
- List of journalists killed in Russia. Not a neologism but a indiscriminant list. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk)
- List of journalists killed in Tajikistan. Not in eastern europe but since the above is there I'll add this one as well. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk)
- These lists are valid, however, they are presented in such a way that paints a POV that indicates Putin is behind all of them. Considering the authors behind them I am not surprised however, and I will qualify this, in that look how those murdered between 1991-1999 are completely ommitted; I began adding some of the early 1990s ones. It is a verifiable fact that more journalists were killed under Yeltsin than under Putin, including
Paul Klebnikov, who was actually pro-Putin (yet, this doesn't stop people such as
Edward Lucas from blaming Putin for his death too ha). If people were more interested in helping to develop an encyclopaedia rather than engaging in advocacy, and presenting all information and POV from the get-go, then this list wouldn't be questioned as it is now, and people such as myself who come along to try and get this balance wouldn't have to do so (and be called pov-pushers). That's my opinions on these lists (and on this area of editing in general). --
Russavia
Dialogue 21:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, even Galina Starovoytova (1998) is missing. I agree that the lists are valid but need much work. -- Miacek and his crime-fighting dog M. se fâche( woof!) 09:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't see how the above articles are any more encyclopedic than say Military personnel killed in Russia. I agree with you about the POV presentation of these articles. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 02:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Actually
Military personnel killed in Russia could be quite a good list. If you look at
List of Heroes of the Russian Federation, every single one of these are notable people (although most don't yet have articles). However, not all military people who are killed are notable, but such a list could include their name (not necessarily wikilinked), along with other "bio" info such as date killed, what campaign (if valid), what award they received (if any)...in fact I would limit such a list to those people who have received one of the various state awards, such as Medal of Valour, etc. It would be a bloody long list, and would take an immense amount of research to complete, but with strict criteria for inclusion in the list, it could actually be a very valid list and totally encyclopaedic. --
Russavia
Dialogue 15:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- But where do you draw the line with the "list of X (profession) killed in Y (country)" articles? You could end up with a list of people killed for every high risk profession in every country? For example List of firefighters killed in Russia, List of skyscraper window washers killed in Russia, List of oil rig workers killed in Russia the list could go on and on. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 00:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)