Archive #27
Geogre, do you recall a discussion some time ago about one-second blocks for purposes of leaving notes in a block log? I vaguely recall such a discussion and I vaguely recall that you participated. Anyway, the issue has come up at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman/Workshop#MatthewHoffman, if you'd care to comment. Best, Mackensen (talk) 02:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Geogre, with all due respect, this is the second time you commented in an AN(I) thread regarding Irpen and me, and I get the impression you are trying to play his behaviour down in order to defend him. I would greatly appreciate it if you would abstain from further comments unless unavoidable. If it's just my own paranoid perception, please forgive me. I'd still appreciate the gesture. Thank you. I dorftrottel I talk I 12:02, December 4, 2007
I was considering Gurch's report page [ [1]], and had an epiphany re quorum. I think you could effectively achieve this right now, if you could convince "voters" of the value of a blocking oppose. If people stopped taking them personally, and were urged to not only vote for candidates they positively supported, but to vote against those on whom they had insufficient opinion, as the default option, then all candidates would start from a net negative assumption. To overcome this, nominees would either have to drum up even higher levels of support, or actively contain opposition - wallflowers could no longer drift by unnoticed. Either way, it would effectively institutionalize de facto quorum.
Am I right? If so, maybe someone should pen a voter strategy handbook? sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 01:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello hello. You all probably hate me for the position I took on FT2. But it was done in good faith. There is a lot of nasty bullying going on. This refers. If you could help to stop this. I have offered to delete the offending page and do the rest by email. Best edward (buckner) ( talk) 20:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
No, I have no involvement in FT2 at all, and after what I endured during my ArbCom run, I'm pretty against blocking one but not another. However, it looks like the temperature has reduced some, there. I hope it stays cool. Geogre ( talk) 21:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
You think I'm "troublesome"? And to think, I voted for you last year. Maybe my judgement could use some improvement, huh? Everyking ( talk) 04:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Geogre. I saw your comments on an IP page, and I thought I'd ask your opinion about this revert and others made by the IP editor. contribs
I figured with me and Athene making different sets of well-intentioned edits, we are simply against someone with an ax to grind. I would like to think that none of my edits were biased, but I leave it to you and others to decide that. I'm just trying to show both sides of a very difficult issue. How am I doing? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 18:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in Mediating the scope and purpose of FAR? Your comments on 1755 Lisbon Earthquake indicate that you would retain FA with fewer footnotes than I would, and I am plainly considered a dangerous radical. (I agree that the article appears perfectly sound, but I would like some more indications of what comes from where.)
In the meantime, would you have a look at {{ FAR-instructions}}? The current flap began when I attempted to get rid of some of uses of facilitate, and of the Bureaucratic Passive; if FAR is going to encourage good writing, its instructions really ought to be in decent English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Let me be clear: I think that FA would profit by an interaction of various POVs, not all of them often represented in its deliberations. I was asking if you would be interested in speaking for one of them; we would obtain a mediator to oversee the process from the Committee or the Cabal, as people thought better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
First, it tries to say that another person being uncivil is an excuse for a new administrator exhibiting different vices. Second, it throws "civility" around as if it were the paramount crime, when, in fact, there are times for drawing a hard line against specific individuals who are doing things that specifically harm the site, and "civility" must never, ever be understood as "politeness" or "niceness." Third, it is one of those cheap, theatrical comments that everyone can apply to someone else and no one can apply to himself, and therefore it cannot ever catch the proper targets. It was a wretched comment and betrayed a very cheap intellect or extremely derelict rhetoric. Epbr123 ( talk) 12:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I felt I needed to respond to your accusation of "bad faith" at Wikipedia:Featured article review/National parks of England and Wales You said "Bad faith nomination again. Is it a surprise or coincidence that the primary author of this and the Lisbon Earthquake left last week and two articles are on FAR this week? These articles were fine for a long time, apparently, and just got bad as soon as the author left. Why?" with an edit summary of: "Let's see: who leaves? Let's FAR them immediately! (petty, childish villains))" I do not appreciate that and I hope you will look at some of the edits listed below which I hope show my good faith:
My intention was to improve the quality of the article, and wikipedia in general, and I would be grateful if you would remove your accusation of "bad faith" and being a "petty, childish villain". I hope that my 18,000+ edits & several FA's GA's etc show that I have the best of the project at heart.— Rod talk 20:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief to note to say I've quoted you here. Hope I didn't misrepresent you or take that quote out of context. More generally, I think you've commented on some parts of this case. Was wondering what you thought now? Carcharoth ( talk) 00:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre, you have recently commented on the practice of editors' digging through each other's contributions with the aim to get an opponent sanctioned, especially postponing doing so until some future point when the moment seems "best", recording anything they find for future use, then running around various pages with the complaints aimed at sanctioning the opponents, rather than address the disputes and also on admins on the civility vigilantism crusade. As you know well, we all agree that civility is a good thing. But this persistent misuse of WP:CIV as a weapon against the opponents is frustrating. Even more frustrating is this mutual stalking, snitching and non-nuanced interference from outside into this already delicate mess with warnings and block buttons thus making things worse by showing that vigilant mutual stalking with the aim to undig more violations is actually working.
I'm a little frustrated by language and the fact that Ioeth is definitely meaning well but making some mistakes. Could you take a look at User_talk:Ioeth#Notification_of_restriction, User_talk:Ioeth#Thank_you_for_the_Notice, User_talk:Dr._Dan#You_are_being_talked_about, User_talk:Halibutt#Regarding_the_Digwuren_case. While some users may be pleased by such incidents and mark small "victories", I am afraid the editing climate would actually be getting even more disharmonious. Thanks in advance, -- Irpen 15:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Can you take a look at this first stab at a draft, and see how it strikes you?
It could be trimmed more ruthlessly if needed, but I've written as a first try, to the limits of what I felt could be represented fairly and within BLP. I've used government sources and her own filings for claims, where they exist, and drafted with care to make sure the wording does not imply a stance.
As a first question, is it reasonably fair, neutral, covers the main bases, and BLP compliant in your view? FT2 ( Talk | email) 19:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments in my RfA, and eventual support. Also, I'd just like to clear the air a bit, if I may. I'll be honest that my previous perception of your voting pattern was that, as far as I was concerned, you didn't so much make up your own mind, as have your opinion handed to you by others, and then you would come up with articulate rationalizations afterwards. So I was actually surprised to see you supporting me for adminship, and pleased that you were able to at least consider changing your mind about me. My own comments in the RfA were sincere, and I really do intend to further incorporate the (constructive) criticism towards being a better administrator. I sincerely doubt you'll see anything controversial coming from my new access level. My main goals, as far as the tools are involved, are simply to help out with various backlogs. As an editor though, I fully intend to keep on writing articles, as there are a few more that I definitely want to get to WP:FA status. Probably the most controversial things that you'll see from me in the future, is that I intend to get more involved in policy discussions. Wikipedia definitely has some problems that need to be addressed, and I'd like to see what I can do to help Wikipedia navigate itself to a healthier culture. I hope that, if you do take the time to look at my actions in the future, you will see that my intentions are genuinely positive ones, even if it does mean that I have to butt heads with people every so often, to make progress towards those positive goals. If you ever do have any concerns about my actions though, I encourage you to speak up at my talkpage. I will do my best to listen to everyone who has good faith concerns. -- El on ka 16:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Nice edit Geogre [2] - I wish there was a WP-most beautiful page section - i really think that one could win it! Giano ( talk) 15:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and rewritten it. Your comments would be appreciated. Risker ( talk) 16:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have filed a request for arbitration which involves you. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Giano_II. John254 04:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This does not look like any sort of change that you describe in your edit summary.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 06:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about the RFPP, but it had to be done - and done by someone previously uninvolved and in a very public way, for everyone's protection. In any case, someone stuck a link to your essay User:Geogre/IRC considered on the talk page and I found it very erudite. It strikes me, however, that the issue of logging has turned out to be something of a canard, and there isn't really a copyright issue from Freenode's perspective. I will try to root out the statement, it might be on meta, but it is definitely around here somewhere and it was fairly recent as well. I am still snickering to myself about Irpen's caption. Risker ( talk) 09:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Very good. Thanks. Guy ( Help!) 16:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher 00:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: this, WP:NOT#Not a battleground has always been a reason to delete. Your vote already expresses you disagree. I have great respect for you and the project is too divided. Let's state our separate opinions here and find some other area where we can work together. Respectfully, Durova Charge! 20:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Geogre-
As someone who agrees with you totally on the issues at hand at the Arbcom (and have currently become so frustrated that I've chosen to shut down my MrWhich account), please don't allow those out for Giano's hide to take you down. I've never seen you so frustrated and angry. I'm not sure I agree or disagree with your characterization of some of those currently working to get those who disagree with them banned/desysoped as "monsters." I do know that your characterizing them as such will be thrown up as further "evidence" to desysop you, and to discredit you. Phil, and Tony, and many, many others are who they are. They have done what they have done. They know it, and will never admit it. Nothing we say will ever change that. I'm beginning to think it would be better to leave them to slap each others' backs, mischaracterize their opponenents actions, and congratulate each other on how well they're doing in "cleaning up" the project. They've gotten rid of Giano. Others have followed, and more will follow later. Arbcom will make their decision, and if they unwisely choose to desysop you, or ban Giano, then simply leave the project, and if you choose to return, start again, write great articles, and do your best again to be an agitating force for change. I know that is what I will most likely be doing. -- Mr Which ???05:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre. I note you've put the old intro back into Architecture of Aylesbury. I suggest you take a moment to read what it says. There is no supporting references for it. It is clearly either a copyvio or a piece of Original Research. I'm going to pop it back to the version I'm currently working on. I'll put a work in progress tag on it, and ask that you come talk to me about my very real concerns about the article. I've been working on it for some time, trying to salvage it. It's mostly a well written personal essay, though it does have the structure of a decent article. Excessive - and possibly not notable, however, worth saving. Please - before reverting any more - take a close look at some of the personal assertions on it - most of them I've now removed! Many regards - SilkTork * SilkyTalk 18:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre. Thank you for your message. Please note that the dicussion has rather been on the article title (initially Mongol conquest of Jerusalem), as it was considered POV by some, hence the attempt at changing it to something more neutral ( Mongol raids on Jerusalem (1300)). The content itself is highly referenced and has always been available on the Franco-Mongol alliance page (which, at 170k, needs some sub-article creation). Regards. PHG ( talk) 05:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
This article, to which you contributed, will be featured on the Main Page on January 5, 2008. [3] Risker ( talk) 17:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I should be explicit, because I might have been making too rueful a point, there. Giano is characterized at arbitration, over and over again, as some kind of 'orrible monster who is just impossible to get along with. However, that's a reflection of the horrible, dreadful, and inappropriate people making those characterizations. None of them have been at Giano's talk page trying to communicate. They do not listen, do not compromise, do not try to work with others, and they complain that anyone who complains about their actions (not words, not motions, but actions) is some how "incivil." Civility begins and ends with discussion. Let no one complain of Giano's "civility" who has never discussed matters with Giano. In fact, Giano's FA articles are never solo endeavors. He works with people (imagine that!) and cooperates with them to produce the articles (there should be a website where people edit cooperatively...I bet it would be a big hit). Queluz National Palace is probably the most outstanding example of a page that Giano did that was fully cooperative. He relied heavily on the efforts of others and was gracious with them all along. It is an article that makes all of these charges of "incivility" a lie. I can immodestly say of myself that I am sometimes difficult, but I am generally willing to speak with anyone who listens and to listen to anyone who reasons. However, the FA's Giano makes are not only an embarrassment to those accusers who manage to write a -bot or come up with 10k of changes to articles reflecting some point of view, but a wholesale rebuttal to charges that Giano does not cooperate well with others. The fact that the accusers have no evidence of communicating with Giano is just another stone on the grave of the "Giano" strawman. Geogre ( talk) 21:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, well, they can't all be winners. I had a professor who swore that he had actually gotten the following on a paper, "It was a virgin field into which the hand of man had not yet set foot." For my part, I never get anything so elaborate, although I did once get someone write that something was outlandishly expensive. It "cost a nominal egg." I have been largely forswearing the arbitration and leaving it to the hyperactive ministrations of the people with beefs, but I do hope that someone is noticing that the people with beefs never attempted in any form or fashion to settle them (just to cook them (couldn't resist)). Geogre ( talk) 20:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, you were helpful on the pronunciation of Ine a while back; I wonder if you could be similarly helpful for Ælle of Sussex? Someone has posted a question on Talk:Ælle of Sussex, and I have no idea either how it should be pronounced or how to write an IPA pronunciation. I can probably figure the latter out; any chance you can help with the former? If you have time, it would be appreciated -- the article's going on the main page on Monday, I just found out, so it would be nice to fix it by then. Mike Christie (talk) 00:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Beautiful. Funny, I was just thinking about you when I wrote No. 60. And did you get the express approval of Wikiproject RubberStamp to write this article without a single inline citation? And without an infobox? The article is naked without the input of Wikiproject Widgets! The gall! But I joke. I am glad you are still writing; thank you. Antandrus (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I could be making any one of a number of metaphors with this picture. Geogre ( talk) 18:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You have mail. Gatoclass ( talk) 20:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Have you remembered that name, yet? Uncle G ( talk) 12:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Won't one of you who watches Geogre's talk page and has a copy of the DNB concealed about their person please take pity on poor Ned Ward? He may be a dunce but he deserves a better than that stub. (Geogre, I apologise for using your page as a clearing house, but you do attract a better class of editor at your Levée) Yomangani talk 17:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, Geogre, Geogre. Surely this edit was a joke. Someone as intellectual as you must know of a little cow called Elsie? I guess all that English Literature knowledge in your brain didn't leave any room for animal husbandry? -- Tex 21:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh for heaven's sake. It's a Highland, of course the cow has horns. [4] I'm trying to remember what a wide forehead is supposed to mean, phrenologically speaking... Risker ( talk) 22:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The funny thing is that I've got cattle all around me. Well, not very close and all around, but within a mile all around, and I'm pretty sure that some of my charges ride cows when they can't get the golf cart charged up, but these are all white face and brahmins and such like 'at 'ere. I don't see horns on them, but I learned long ago that it's better if I just eat them and let someone else do the handling and killing and packaging (and cooking). Geogre ( talk) 23:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have asked arbcom to clarify the procedure concerning this clause, and named you as another user who raised a query about it. I hope I have not mischaracterized your position, but anyway, you are welcome to comment there if you choose. Regards, Gatoclass ( talk) 11:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Suppose we have a problem with Fredonia. Fredonians and their natural enemies, the Elbonians, are editing Wikipedia sometimes to sing their own praises, sometimes to tweak the noses of their enemies, sometimes to deny critical terminology, other times to insert critical terminology. When a particular user is blocked, half a dozen new names appear to reinstate that user's point and to complain about how the nasty Elbonians/Fredonians are controlling Wikipedia.
To deal with this, ArbCom might issue a restriction designed to prevent any episode from escalating. If so, they can do so only by relying upon independent, dispassionate, and thorough investigation. Without that, disruption will be enabled rather than prevented, because six Fredonians can go to say, "This Elbonian is disrupting us," and six Elbonians can come to say, "This Fredonian is being incivil to us." In other words, without investigation and independence, all that happens is that more disruption results. Complaining is just as effective as name calling, if the goal is silencing another user.
"Incivility" is supposed to mean (by most lexical standards), that behavior that is against societal norms, something that arises from barbarity, a behavior that shows no awareness of the rules of conversation and which erodes civility. Well, that is only something we can interpret either A) by knowing exactly the rules of social behavior, B) assessing the effect of the speech or behavior and demonstrating a deterioration of social action. The only way that A) can be employed is by a survey or gaging "community standards." B) is easier, but, when we apply it in these cases (the Fredonians and Elbonians), what we see is that societies are at odds with one another, that the origin of the speech and behavior is one social group against another. It can therefore be a matter of insult or being insulted. If I can be insulted and offended on behalf of my Fredonian countrymen, then I can uphold my Fredonianism against the outsiders. If I can call the Fredonians murderous half-wits, then I can affirm my Elbonian society by putting down the awful Fredonians.
In other words, any administrator applying "incivility" to nationalist or ethnic or religious communities at odds with one another is completely out of his or her tree. Looking for "who feels insulted" is, simply put, nuts.
Obviously, we apply "civility" as a standard in these instances because we are silently (and, I think, unconsciously and ill-advisedly) supposing "in accordance with building an overall social group that is beyond and between the subgroups and ethnicities." In other words, what an uninvolved administrator has to look for is not insult, but, instead, "Who is trying to pit one group against another? Who is trying to subdivide the editing population to create an us and them?"
Anyway, that's what I think. Any subgroup that acts as a subgroup to define, block, or control another subgroup is being uncivil. Thus, when six or seven users mobilize instantly to try to get the editing privileges of another user curtailed, I fear that a new orthodoxy and control is being offered, and that's anathema. Geogre ( talk) 20:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Who is trying to pit one group against another? Who is trying to subdivide the editing population to create an us and them?"
Hmm, I can see you've thought about these issues quite deeply Geogre. I guess I could comment further, but I'd probably run the risk of being accused of "bigotry" or something again if I did, LOL.
Anyhow, I decided to withdraw my request for clarification at arbcom. For one thing, I have an obvious COI in raising the issue. For another, I really don't want to put Thatcher on the spot, because regardless of what one may think of her decisions, I'm sure she made them in good faith and I can understand why she did what she did. If she hadn't sanctioned me as well as the others there probably would have been a new round of complaint, so by doing so she effectively stopped the dispute from continuing.
Apart from which, she's indicated she will consider removing my notice in future given good behaviour, so I really don't have that much left to complain about. Gatoclass ( talk) 04:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you have a look at this if you get a chance (end of the Background section). Paulson advances a theory that it is anti-Pope, and I'm not sure of some his conclusions. Though I've been careful to point out they are his, a second opinion on whether it is worth including would be handy. (and what's this ...whose work is considered a high point of pre-industrial bookbinding... who is the great post-industrial bookbinder?) Yomangani talk 12:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, you've always been able to translate American into English for me. What is the usage of 'props' seen on the Swedish page - as in "major props to Bishonen". Obviously its congratulations/kudos etc. is it short for something? where does it come from? -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 14:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
“ | slang (orig. in African-American usage).
Due respect; approval, compliments, esteem. [App. < prop- (in PROPER adj.; app. understood as short for proper respect) + plural ending -s (prob. merely euphonic).] 1990 Chicago Tribune 29 July 2/4, I was one of the first female rappers, but I've always gotten my props. 1997 Touch May 24 Why do certain sectors of the music fraternity still refuse to give him due props? 2002 Electronic Gaming Monthly Feb. 164/1 Props to Tiburon for making use of the C stick on the controller. |
” |
A Tale of a Tub has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Cirt ( talk) 14:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC).
I think this is a good article and if someone more knowledgable on the topic isn't available to clean it up then I'll take a stab at it. But please don't remove the maintenance tags if you aren't willing to make any effort of your own; that's not helpful. — Kymacpherson ( talk) 15:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Victuallers ( talk) 15:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
On 17 January, following a series of edits to Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision, User:FloNight protected the page and added the following in an edit summary: "I protected the page from all editing until the case is closed or edits all agree to make all productive comments about the proposed ruling and not other editors". Flonight has not left any further messages as yet, so I am posting this message to all those who edited the page in this period, and asking them to consider signing this section at Flonight's talk page indicating that they will abide by this request. Hopefully this will help move the situation forward, and enable the talk page to be unprotected (with any necessary warnings added) so that any editor (including those uninvolved in this) can comment on the proposed decision. Thank you. Carcharoth ( talk) 05:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, I am looking at Somerset, which is at FAC, and I noticed that the history of the name uses the form "Sumorsǣte", with a bar on the æsc. I was wondering both what the difference is, and also whether it's correct in this form -- I assume the editor of the article got it from the source they cite for it, which is Victor Watts, Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names, but I thought you'd be a better person to ask for the first question. If you have a moment I'd be interested to know. Thanks -- Mike Christie (talk) 04:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
(Cross posted to Giano's talk page)
Does this sound like something you'd be interested in? Raul654 ( talk) 03:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Joopercoopers, I went there. I can't believe how cavalierly Marksell was insulting people in his opening salvo. It's a "mess" if people don't play along. Some dinosaurs like me write horrible articles like Emsworth's. (And yet, paradoxically, he also notes that people don't come forward to defend Emsworth, but they do when the articles are mine, and he has no explanation for that except that I'm still here. It couldn't be that these are not at all like one another, could it?) As for the person who is offering to reform our awful messes in the 18th c., I don't have anything against her, but these are not messes. In particular, having something like Bishonen's footnote-loaded Colley Cibber (we all have a copy of The Apology; the hard part is getting ahold of the scandalous letters) put in with my parenthetical-or-none articles is a real mistake, and I chide her for that alone. It's also offensive to have even the implication that I or others don't allow people to add citations. Hell, look at how much I had to suffer while they "fixed" Restoration literature. Just get serious sources, and for statements likely to be challenged (by sources), not "likely to be challenged by people wanting to be involved at FAR." Geogre ( talk) 12:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
How about I sandbox the article and add cites to that only. I'm aware of the book for only 19 days, I only know the period from paintings, but am fanicated by the sources I've found so far on Swift. I need to spend some time reading up, but if you could vet the sources I find, that would be great. Ceoil
I rather like Frank O'Connor. What I find interesting, among many other things, is just how twee Yeats and Gregory's vision was and how it was a course carried forward by the strength of name, and therefore one that was endlessly confining to other Irish writers. Basically, a cabal, if you will. O'Connor was more of a Dostoevskian writer, in my view, and aligned with American fiction to some degree, and O'Brien, of course (Brian O'Nolan, Flann O'Brien, Myles na gCopaleen), was aligned with American literature and what was happening in US circles. Either way, there was a heavy resentment of this Ireland of Myth, on the one hand, and Synge's Ireland of Cute People. (I have sympathy. As a southerner, I have seen the same strains in "southern literature." We get a great one like Faulkner or O'Connor, and suddenly all southern literature has to have sweaty plantations or "grotesques," and a bunch of southern writers are happy to oblige. The Thomas Wolfe side of things, the southern tradition influenced by Romanticism and French symbolism, is out of the picture (except sometimes in Truman Capote). The difference is that southern literature never got a group (with imported money) announcing that it was The Cultural Center.) Any group setting itself up as the power is a tyrannical and unrepresentative group almost instantly. It gets very quickly to a monoculture and an echo chamber of voices. Uh, I seem to have wandered. Geogre ( talk) 15:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Your talk about southern reminds me about how Cork and dublin bands are treated by papers of record. Forgive me the leap of logic, but dublin bands are given grativas in dublin's eyes, while the best of cork is 'quirky and momentarly distracting'. It's seems a universal principal is at work here. Ceoil ( talk) 16:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I hate to bother you with this, but since its a complex issue and you may be aware of some of the details since you've warned PHG ( talk · contribs) before, I was hoping you could take a new look. Recently I've become more involved in the talk page discussions and even reverted the article once, so I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to consider using any tools in the situation. The gist is this:
PHG's behavior continues to become increasingly disruptive. He's now created a slow moving revert war with 3 other editors and is wikilawyering in great amounts on the talk page in an attempt to advocate for his preferred version. He's canvassed editors who've been in previous disputes with his opponents, editors who voted to keep one of his POV forks [5] [6] [7] [8] and invited in an editor who's already under ArbCom restrictions in the subject area [9] in an attempt to bolster his side of the debate. I've also recently discovered that he's been using misleading edit summaries and his "reverts" have also included the addition of more than 40 new paragraphs of highly disputed information (the unsupportable pov he's been pushing for four months now) and enough quotations and summaries from supposed sources to bring the number of total article notes to 401 ( example). In total, he's managed to sneak in another 50k worth of absolute crap (for comparison's sake, his original preferred version was 147k and the rewrite he keeps reverting is only 80k). See this for more details. Not to mention he's created scads of POV forks in further attempts to keep "his" OR somewhere (detailed here). You may also want to see this for a refresher on the background issues as well.
I'd like to see the other editors who are discussing on the talk page and trying to improve the article get a chance at it and if I weren't involved, I'd consider blocking him for this continued disruption. Could you take a gander and see what your feeling is on the issue? Shell babelfish 22:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You are incorrect that there has been no finding regarding Giano's behavior; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova#Giano is less than two months old, and Giano has again done virtually everything that was mentioned there.
Fundamentally, the success of the project requires that we maintain an atmosphere that is at least broadly tolerable, if not necessarily pleasant. Disputes are supposed to be resolved through polite discussion; Giano, however, is more likely to use rumor-mongering, provocation, insults, calumny, and character assassination. These are more effective methods, to be sure; but that doesn't make them acceptable. This is not a political arena.
And it is your responsibility, as a respected administrator, to act as a moderating influence—to calm the dispute and encourage editors to act in a manner compatible with community norms—rather than throwing gasoline on the flames. The same applies to Bishonen.
So what happened here? This is not a case of routine 3RR or even wheel-warring, originally. Rather, Giano set out to add comments that were deliberately provocative to the other editors of the page and, more importantly, clearly intended to besmirch the reputation of anyone using the IRC channel. That he felt their reputations were worthy of besmirching is utterly irrelevant; this is not how we do things here. And then, rather than pulling him aside and asking him to act with a bit more decorum, both of you stepped in to carry on the dispute. Again, you may have been correct in substance; but the way in which you acted was unbecoming.
Or, to quote the infamous m:Don't be a dick:
Being right about an issue does not mean you're not being a dick! Dicks can be right — but they're still dicks; if there's something in what they say that is worth hearing, it goes unheard, because no one likes listening to dicks. It doesn't matter how right they are.
The sad thing in all this is that Giano says a great many things that we would listen to if not for his thoroughly atrocious manner of saying them. Kirill 17:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Four threads up, Geogre, you suggested that "cavalierly, Marksell was insulting people." [comma inserted]. I responded that I intended no insult. I would like the field to be clear, so to speak. What I find cavalier is that, after numerous hours spent crafting responses to you over two years (honestly, check), you'd so casually lack AGF when you see my sig.
I don't get it. I honestly don't. Maybe you don't pay attention to sigs? Or maybe you conflate them? You've conflated mine with what you don't like about FAR? What is it? I'm not going to kiss your ass re main space contributions, because I think you're an editor that doesn't need his ass kissed. So, really: could you respond? And respond to me, man—I've already read the boilerplate about your hating bots and this and that. Can I talk to you? If not, why not? Marskell ( talk) 21:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I say that sages and projects as determinants of whether an article is properly cited is outside of Wikipedia's remit. Why? Well, Wikipedia replaced an "expert only" project and was attractive because it accepted all persons. The belief that licenses this is that all of us, collectively, are smarter than any of us, individually. Of course, there are numerous debunkings of this idea. It's not an accurate model. However, whatever problems there are with the utopian ideal of the GNU folks, the fact is that Wikipedia does not demand that editors establish credentials, does not accept authority based upon them, does not test them, and does not work with external status as "experts" in any form. It therefore really does not do well to have an internal establishment of a "Sage" as anything but an informal and fluid expression of trust. It cannot be given, cannot be cemented, cannot be affixed like a gold star to the forehead. (Yes, I say this as a person who could pass any external verification, but I don't want to have more say in matters because of anything like that. I demand that I get respect by my words and deeds, and not my diplomas or publications.)
Projects are another matter, slightly. They're voluntary and self-selected, and I generally applaud them as the inevitable result of our chaos. However, so long as they are self-selected and voluntary, they don't have power. There is a huge, huge difference between acting as a nexus for writing and editing and acting as an authority. A project is great as the former. It's onanism as the latter (at best). Nothing wrong with projects existing -- they would in any case -- but there is nothing right with them being in "control" of anything. Geogre ( talk) 15:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Since no one currently participating in the review (restarted very shortly after the last was closed as "keep"), I thought I would let you know that the review process has started again. I'm sure you'd probably noticed, but if none of them were willing to notify you per protocol, I thought I would do it. Regards, -- Bellwether B C 01:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, I'm partly to blame for this. The last time it was FAR'd, Marskell thought it was too hot for him to handle and asked me to take care it. I dropped the ball and Marskell ended up having to sort it out. The new FAR nom was started off shortly after the last one closed, and I told Marskell I really would keep an eye on it the second time around. I've decided to let this one go forward. The goal here is not to torment you, but to get an otherwise FA-quality article up to standard where the references are concerned. Raul654 ( talk) 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The truest words you have ever written on Wikipedia [10]. congratulations. Giano ( talk) 21:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I can describe my own process:
To say that I'm considering alternatives is an understatement. I and my 300 articles aren't doing much good as they wait for some random insult or injury. I did very good work for the form, but I also understand the form -- it's a form that is largely impossible to find -- and I find that the form is neither understood nor desired by the "writing" side, and writing is neither understood nor desired by the IRC hobbyists. Why, then, give the unwanted to the unknowing, when they will soon, out of revenge or native spite or bumbling ineptitude, mar it so that the unseen and unheard Reader will be unserved. Geogre ( talk) 14:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again for lending a neuron or two, it's still very much a work in (slow) progress at Wikipedia is not a sentient being. Another and perhaps not overly original idea at How to survive on Wikipedia - suggestions for de-bullshitting always welcome. Just in case you've got nothing better to do. Kosebamse ( talk) 13:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Look, there are some real issues and disputes out there, and I guess you an I will be on opposite sides on a good deal of them. But I've recently deliberately tried to keep it cool and de-escalate where I can. The purpose of dispute resolution is to resolve disputes as amicably as possible, not perpetuate point scoring and divisive polemic. You are an undoubted master of rhetoric, please please consider using it to state your case clearly and avoid heated remarks that tend to inflame and provoke. I'd like to assume that dispute resolution is the goal of every participant at this time, but I have to admit that sometimes that assumption is harder than at others. However, given arbcom's support for a finding asking ALL parties to tone it down and seek resolutions, perhaps all of us could use the opportunity to try a little harder.
To record what I'm talking about see this. Now, sometimes I have been guilty of missing the subtleties of your words, but in the present climate, using words like "quisling newbie" "arrogant" and "parasite" are not at all helpful. I'll not call them "personal attacks", or "incivil" because that's another minefield, it may well be that my pain reading of the remarks is wrong. This lecture is from a penitent, if not totally reformed, sinner, so any change of hypocrisy you care to make against me in return will doubtless be justified.-- Docg 17:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I've removed all comments other than Aza's original !vote. -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 15:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Per the section above, I'd like to make an impassioned plea for you not to step back from Wikipedia, not to decrease your level of activity. Perhaps disengage from discussions with people who add little content, aye. But one of the reasons that things occasionally appear to be getting worse is that the reasonable turd flingers are exhausted by the seemingly endless energy of those for whom Wikipedia serves only as a prop for their egos.
Things are getting, in some ways, heaps better. Yes, there has been a fair amount of kerfluffle lately from "old timers." It's a mere rattle, emitting a vague and senseless noise. It's the chattering of a corpse that knows not yet of its own death. On the ArbCom level, Newyorkbrad and FT2 look like Golden Rays of Sunlight to me. On the general plebian admin level, there are a large number of new admins who appear reasonable, open, and accomodating. There are several yearling admins who have continued to be the same. On the editor level, good quality content continues to get written.
Stay on lad, and don't let the blighters get you down.
152.91.9.144 ( talk) 07:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Would you kindly drop by Talk:Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi#For_reference_check_and_discussion_re:_John_Lennon_addition, wearing an editor hat, and tell me if I'm misunderstanding the situation? Nandesuka ( talk) 18:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
"JC: Yes, but studio executives always treat people like me, and writers in particular, as though we live in some kind of ivory tower. And these executives think they know what audiences really like, despite the fact that I've spent my life in front of audiences. And the executives have never been in front of audiences, apart from sycophantic young junior executives who wouldn't dare not laugh at their jokes. So the whole idea that they have some kind of practical knowledge that I don't have is so ludicrous that it does not bear inspection. But they hang onto it. They hang onto a mystical belief that in the moment they inherited the biggest desk and office in their block, they also inherited an understanding of comedy. And it's absolutely insane, but they really do think that they understand it. And so they start telling you to do things which you know are wrong, and I don't know how you can write something that you know is wrong. I mean, what do you try, do you try to write it badly so it will be better? " [11]
This arbitration case has closed and the final decision may be found at the link above. Giano is placed on civility restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling. All parties in this case are strongly cautioned to pursue disputes in a civil manner designed to contribute to resolution and to cause minimal disruption. All the involved editors, both the supporters and detractors of IRC, are asked to avoid edit warring on project space pages even if their status is unclear, and are instructed to use civil discussion to resolve all issues with respect to the "admin" IRC channel. For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 04:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
How about Wikipedia:Ping pong instead? Oh. Wrong case. Carcharoth ( talk) 14:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, actually, some context: in Ars Poetica, Horace is speaking of a bad poet who kept promising this Important Poem. He worked and worked and worked and spoke of it over and over again, and then he produced a very bad, silly piece. Thus, "The mountains go into labor, and they give birth to a ridiculous mouse." The effort is massive, and the result is laughable. Hence, our very good friends accepted a case, announced all sorts of breakthroughs to be made, all sorts of peace to be created, all sorts of justice to be delivered, and then they produced... exactly what the were pregnant with. Geogre ( talk) 14:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I asked to be removed from the access list to the channel before the arbitration case was accepted [12] and have publicly asserted that I intend that to be permanent. [13]. Jimbo Wales clarified the way to handle complaints about IRC prior to the case [14]. The arbitration committee ruled (as it often has in the past) that provocative editing and warlike use of admin tools are not acceptable. And there won't (or shouldn't) be a repetition. This is something we can all live with. The Committee has announced that it is "formulating policy and procedure changes" based on Jimbo's clarification.
You state that "many people would far rather give up editing Wikipedia than give up talking on IRC" but I see no indication of where you arrived at this conclusion (at least one person who has announced that he is giving up editing Wikipedia does not use IRC at all). In short, I find it difficult to reconcile your description of the case with the facts available on-wiki. -- Tony Sidaway 17:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's take a hypothetical. Suppose that there are over 2000 eligible persons for a position, and let's suppose that 40 run for the position. Now, let's suppose that the "election" is really more or less window dressing, that the winners will be selected by a single individual. Is it likely that such an individual will be fully informed about the 40 candidates? Suppose also that the person has a job or two in real life.
Ok, now let's suppose that there is a chat medium. It's attractive, because you don't really have to commit to getting a ton of background. You can go there, hear from people, utter a pronouncement or two, and then log off and go back to work. As soon as you show up, though, you hear great things about certain people and bad things about other people, and most people say very flattering things to you. If you were Solomon himself, your head would be turned.
So, let's suppose, again hypothetically, that the "selection" of candidates had something to do with these reports, or the flattery, or just familiarity, or even because one assumes that chatting shows dedication. It does not matter why or how. We only need to suppose that it has an effect, that it is a way to go from "just some name" to "known by Himself."
Here, then, comes the issue. Some people (rather a lot, unfortunately) say that the medium by which you pop in, chat a bit, and go back to work, is bad, that it has bad effects, or that it has been misused. Well, if you're Himself, it has to be puzzling. After all, every time you've been there, there is only peace and kindness to be seen. If you're one of those selected rather than elected, you have to be conscious of the fact that this medium is one of the keys to keeping you from being anonymous, that it is the doorway to Himself.
So, let's just ask the question: in such a hypothetical realm, how likely is it that the selected-not-elected would take the concerns of others seriously? How likely is it that they would want to see any substantial change to it? How likely is it that they would tolerate a suggestion that it be dismantled?
That's what I think, too. Geogre ( talk) 12:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I was looking into the tenses, and I found: “Parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus” or “Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus” with the future instead of the present ‘parturiunt’, as we have two lections. - which translates as "The mountains are in labour/ will be in labour, a ridiculous mouse will be born" - I corrected one part of the spelling, but when correcting another part, I think I got the tense wrong. Parturiunt = are in labour, and Parturient = will be labour. Of course, the mountains will continue to labour, and hopefully will bring forth some lions instead of mice, but surely you want to say that the mountains have laboured, and have brought forth a mouse. Or would that get too far from the original? Carcharoth ( talk) 15:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Archive #27
Geogre, do you recall a discussion some time ago about one-second blocks for purposes of leaving notes in a block log? I vaguely recall such a discussion and I vaguely recall that you participated. Anyway, the issue has come up at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman/Workshop#MatthewHoffman, if you'd care to comment. Best, Mackensen (talk) 02:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Geogre, with all due respect, this is the second time you commented in an AN(I) thread regarding Irpen and me, and I get the impression you are trying to play his behaviour down in order to defend him. I would greatly appreciate it if you would abstain from further comments unless unavoidable. If it's just my own paranoid perception, please forgive me. I'd still appreciate the gesture. Thank you. I dorftrottel I talk I 12:02, December 4, 2007
I was considering Gurch's report page [ [1]], and had an epiphany re quorum. I think you could effectively achieve this right now, if you could convince "voters" of the value of a blocking oppose. If people stopped taking them personally, and were urged to not only vote for candidates they positively supported, but to vote against those on whom they had insufficient opinion, as the default option, then all candidates would start from a net negative assumption. To overcome this, nominees would either have to drum up even higher levels of support, or actively contain opposition - wallflowers could no longer drift by unnoticed. Either way, it would effectively institutionalize de facto quorum.
Am I right? If so, maybe someone should pen a voter strategy handbook? sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 01:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello hello. You all probably hate me for the position I took on FT2. But it was done in good faith. There is a lot of nasty bullying going on. This refers. If you could help to stop this. I have offered to delete the offending page and do the rest by email. Best edward (buckner) ( talk) 20:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
No, I have no involvement in FT2 at all, and after what I endured during my ArbCom run, I'm pretty against blocking one but not another. However, it looks like the temperature has reduced some, there. I hope it stays cool. Geogre ( talk) 21:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
You think I'm "troublesome"? And to think, I voted for you last year. Maybe my judgement could use some improvement, huh? Everyking ( talk) 04:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Geogre. I saw your comments on an IP page, and I thought I'd ask your opinion about this revert and others made by the IP editor. contribs
I figured with me and Athene making different sets of well-intentioned edits, we are simply against someone with an ax to grind. I would like to think that none of my edits were biased, but I leave it to you and others to decide that. I'm just trying to show both sides of a very difficult issue. How am I doing? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 18:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Would you be interested in Mediating the scope and purpose of FAR? Your comments on 1755 Lisbon Earthquake indicate that you would retain FA with fewer footnotes than I would, and I am plainly considered a dangerous radical. (I agree that the article appears perfectly sound, but I would like some more indications of what comes from where.)
In the meantime, would you have a look at {{ FAR-instructions}}? The current flap began when I attempted to get rid of some of uses of facilitate, and of the Bureaucratic Passive; if FAR is going to encourage good writing, its instructions really ought to be in decent English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Let me be clear: I think that FA would profit by an interaction of various POVs, not all of them often represented in its deliberations. I was asking if you would be interested in speaking for one of them; we would obtain a mediator to oversee the process from the Committee or the Cabal, as people thought better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
First, it tries to say that another person being uncivil is an excuse for a new administrator exhibiting different vices. Second, it throws "civility" around as if it were the paramount crime, when, in fact, there are times for drawing a hard line against specific individuals who are doing things that specifically harm the site, and "civility" must never, ever be understood as "politeness" or "niceness." Third, it is one of those cheap, theatrical comments that everyone can apply to someone else and no one can apply to himself, and therefore it cannot ever catch the proper targets. It was a wretched comment and betrayed a very cheap intellect or extremely derelict rhetoric. Epbr123 ( talk) 12:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I felt I needed to respond to your accusation of "bad faith" at Wikipedia:Featured article review/National parks of England and Wales You said "Bad faith nomination again. Is it a surprise or coincidence that the primary author of this and the Lisbon Earthquake left last week and two articles are on FAR this week? These articles were fine for a long time, apparently, and just got bad as soon as the author left. Why?" with an edit summary of: "Let's see: who leaves? Let's FAR them immediately! (petty, childish villains))" I do not appreciate that and I hope you will look at some of the edits listed below which I hope show my good faith:
My intention was to improve the quality of the article, and wikipedia in general, and I would be grateful if you would remove your accusation of "bad faith" and being a "petty, childish villain". I hope that my 18,000+ edits & several FA's GA's etc show that I have the best of the project at heart.— Rod talk 20:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a brief to note to say I've quoted you here. Hope I didn't misrepresent you or take that quote out of context. More generally, I think you've commented on some parts of this case. Was wondering what you thought now? Carcharoth ( talk) 00:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre, you have recently commented on the practice of editors' digging through each other's contributions with the aim to get an opponent sanctioned, especially postponing doing so until some future point when the moment seems "best", recording anything they find for future use, then running around various pages with the complaints aimed at sanctioning the opponents, rather than address the disputes and also on admins on the civility vigilantism crusade. As you know well, we all agree that civility is a good thing. But this persistent misuse of WP:CIV as a weapon against the opponents is frustrating. Even more frustrating is this mutual stalking, snitching and non-nuanced interference from outside into this already delicate mess with warnings and block buttons thus making things worse by showing that vigilant mutual stalking with the aim to undig more violations is actually working.
I'm a little frustrated by language and the fact that Ioeth is definitely meaning well but making some mistakes. Could you take a look at User_talk:Ioeth#Notification_of_restriction, User_talk:Ioeth#Thank_you_for_the_Notice, User_talk:Dr._Dan#You_are_being_talked_about, User_talk:Halibutt#Regarding_the_Digwuren_case. While some users may be pleased by such incidents and mark small "victories", I am afraid the editing climate would actually be getting even more disharmonious. Thanks in advance, -- Irpen 15:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Can you take a look at this first stab at a draft, and see how it strikes you?
It could be trimmed more ruthlessly if needed, but I've written as a first try, to the limits of what I felt could be represented fairly and within BLP. I've used government sources and her own filings for claims, where they exist, and drafted with care to make sure the wording does not imply a stance.
As a first question, is it reasonably fair, neutral, covers the main bases, and BLP compliant in your view? FT2 ( Talk | email) 19:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments in my RfA, and eventual support. Also, I'd just like to clear the air a bit, if I may. I'll be honest that my previous perception of your voting pattern was that, as far as I was concerned, you didn't so much make up your own mind, as have your opinion handed to you by others, and then you would come up with articulate rationalizations afterwards. So I was actually surprised to see you supporting me for adminship, and pleased that you were able to at least consider changing your mind about me. My own comments in the RfA were sincere, and I really do intend to further incorporate the (constructive) criticism towards being a better administrator. I sincerely doubt you'll see anything controversial coming from my new access level. My main goals, as far as the tools are involved, are simply to help out with various backlogs. As an editor though, I fully intend to keep on writing articles, as there are a few more that I definitely want to get to WP:FA status. Probably the most controversial things that you'll see from me in the future, is that I intend to get more involved in policy discussions. Wikipedia definitely has some problems that need to be addressed, and I'd like to see what I can do to help Wikipedia navigate itself to a healthier culture. I hope that, if you do take the time to look at my actions in the future, you will see that my intentions are genuinely positive ones, even if it does mean that I have to butt heads with people every so often, to make progress towards those positive goals. If you ever do have any concerns about my actions though, I encourage you to speak up at my talkpage. I will do my best to listen to everyone who has good faith concerns. -- El on ka 16:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Nice edit Geogre [2] - I wish there was a WP-most beautiful page section - i really think that one could win it! Giano ( talk) 15:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and rewritten it. Your comments would be appreciated. Risker ( talk) 16:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I have filed a request for arbitration which involves you. Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Giano_II. John254 04:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This does not look like any sort of change that you describe in your edit summary.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 06:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about the RFPP, but it had to be done - and done by someone previously uninvolved and in a very public way, for everyone's protection. In any case, someone stuck a link to your essay User:Geogre/IRC considered on the talk page and I found it very erudite. It strikes me, however, that the issue of logging has turned out to be something of a canard, and there isn't really a copyright issue from Freenode's perspective. I will try to root out the statement, it might be on meta, but it is definitely around here somewhere and it was fairly recent as well. I am still snickering to myself about Irpen's caption. Risker ( talk) 09:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Very good. Thanks. Guy ( Help!) 16:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher 00:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: this, WP:NOT#Not a battleground has always been a reason to delete. Your vote already expresses you disagree. I have great respect for you and the project is too divided. Let's state our separate opinions here and find some other area where we can work together. Respectfully, Durova Charge! 20:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Geogre-
As someone who agrees with you totally on the issues at hand at the Arbcom (and have currently become so frustrated that I've chosen to shut down my MrWhich account), please don't allow those out for Giano's hide to take you down. I've never seen you so frustrated and angry. I'm not sure I agree or disagree with your characterization of some of those currently working to get those who disagree with them banned/desysoped as "monsters." I do know that your characterizing them as such will be thrown up as further "evidence" to desysop you, and to discredit you. Phil, and Tony, and many, many others are who they are. They have done what they have done. They know it, and will never admit it. Nothing we say will ever change that. I'm beginning to think it would be better to leave them to slap each others' backs, mischaracterize their opponenents actions, and congratulate each other on how well they're doing in "cleaning up" the project. They've gotten rid of Giano. Others have followed, and more will follow later. Arbcom will make their decision, and if they unwisely choose to desysop you, or ban Giano, then simply leave the project, and if you choose to return, start again, write great articles, and do your best again to be an agitating force for change. I know that is what I will most likely be doing. -- Mr Which ???05:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre. I note you've put the old intro back into Architecture of Aylesbury. I suggest you take a moment to read what it says. There is no supporting references for it. It is clearly either a copyvio or a piece of Original Research. I'm going to pop it back to the version I'm currently working on. I'll put a work in progress tag on it, and ask that you come talk to me about my very real concerns about the article. I've been working on it for some time, trying to salvage it. It's mostly a well written personal essay, though it does have the structure of a decent article. Excessive - and possibly not notable, however, worth saving. Please - before reverting any more - take a close look at some of the personal assertions on it - most of them I've now removed! Many regards - SilkTork * SilkyTalk 18:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Geogre. Thank you for your message. Please note that the dicussion has rather been on the article title (initially Mongol conquest of Jerusalem), as it was considered POV by some, hence the attempt at changing it to something more neutral ( Mongol raids on Jerusalem (1300)). The content itself is highly referenced and has always been available on the Franco-Mongol alliance page (which, at 170k, needs some sub-article creation). Regards. PHG ( talk) 05:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
This article, to which you contributed, will be featured on the Main Page on January 5, 2008. [3] Risker ( talk) 17:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I should be explicit, because I might have been making too rueful a point, there. Giano is characterized at arbitration, over and over again, as some kind of 'orrible monster who is just impossible to get along with. However, that's a reflection of the horrible, dreadful, and inappropriate people making those characterizations. None of them have been at Giano's talk page trying to communicate. They do not listen, do not compromise, do not try to work with others, and they complain that anyone who complains about their actions (not words, not motions, but actions) is some how "incivil." Civility begins and ends with discussion. Let no one complain of Giano's "civility" who has never discussed matters with Giano. In fact, Giano's FA articles are never solo endeavors. He works with people (imagine that!) and cooperates with them to produce the articles (there should be a website where people edit cooperatively...I bet it would be a big hit). Queluz National Palace is probably the most outstanding example of a page that Giano did that was fully cooperative. He relied heavily on the efforts of others and was gracious with them all along. It is an article that makes all of these charges of "incivility" a lie. I can immodestly say of myself that I am sometimes difficult, but I am generally willing to speak with anyone who listens and to listen to anyone who reasons. However, the FA's Giano makes are not only an embarrassment to those accusers who manage to write a -bot or come up with 10k of changes to articles reflecting some point of view, but a wholesale rebuttal to charges that Giano does not cooperate well with others. The fact that the accusers have no evidence of communicating with Giano is just another stone on the grave of the "Giano" strawman. Geogre ( talk) 21:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, well, they can't all be winners. I had a professor who swore that he had actually gotten the following on a paper, "It was a virgin field into which the hand of man had not yet set foot." For my part, I never get anything so elaborate, although I did once get someone write that something was outlandishly expensive. It "cost a nominal egg." I have been largely forswearing the arbitration and leaving it to the hyperactive ministrations of the people with beefs, but I do hope that someone is noticing that the people with beefs never attempted in any form or fashion to settle them (just to cook them (couldn't resist)). Geogre ( talk) 20:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, you were helpful on the pronunciation of Ine a while back; I wonder if you could be similarly helpful for Ælle of Sussex? Someone has posted a question on Talk:Ælle of Sussex, and I have no idea either how it should be pronounced or how to write an IPA pronunciation. I can probably figure the latter out; any chance you can help with the former? If you have time, it would be appreciated -- the article's going on the main page on Monday, I just found out, so it would be nice to fix it by then. Mike Christie (talk) 00:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Beautiful. Funny, I was just thinking about you when I wrote No. 60. And did you get the express approval of Wikiproject RubberStamp to write this article without a single inline citation? And without an infobox? The article is naked without the input of Wikiproject Widgets! The gall! But I joke. I am glad you are still writing; thank you. Antandrus (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I could be making any one of a number of metaphors with this picture. Geogre ( talk) 18:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
You have mail. Gatoclass ( talk) 20:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Have you remembered that name, yet? Uncle G ( talk) 12:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Won't one of you who watches Geogre's talk page and has a copy of the DNB concealed about their person please take pity on poor Ned Ward? He may be a dunce but he deserves a better than that stub. (Geogre, I apologise for using your page as a clearing house, but you do attract a better class of editor at your Levée) Yomangani talk 17:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, Geogre, Geogre. Surely this edit was a joke. Someone as intellectual as you must know of a little cow called Elsie? I guess all that English Literature knowledge in your brain didn't leave any room for animal husbandry? -- Tex 21:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh for heaven's sake. It's a Highland, of course the cow has horns. [4] I'm trying to remember what a wide forehead is supposed to mean, phrenologically speaking... Risker ( talk) 22:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The funny thing is that I've got cattle all around me. Well, not very close and all around, but within a mile all around, and I'm pretty sure that some of my charges ride cows when they can't get the golf cart charged up, but these are all white face and brahmins and such like 'at 'ere. I don't see horns on them, but I learned long ago that it's better if I just eat them and let someone else do the handling and killing and packaging (and cooking). Geogre ( talk) 23:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have asked arbcom to clarify the procedure concerning this clause, and named you as another user who raised a query about it. I hope I have not mischaracterized your position, but anyway, you are welcome to comment there if you choose. Regards, Gatoclass ( talk) 11:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Suppose we have a problem with Fredonia. Fredonians and their natural enemies, the Elbonians, are editing Wikipedia sometimes to sing their own praises, sometimes to tweak the noses of their enemies, sometimes to deny critical terminology, other times to insert critical terminology. When a particular user is blocked, half a dozen new names appear to reinstate that user's point and to complain about how the nasty Elbonians/Fredonians are controlling Wikipedia.
To deal with this, ArbCom might issue a restriction designed to prevent any episode from escalating. If so, they can do so only by relying upon independent, dispassionate, and thorough investigation. Without that, disruption will be enabled rather than prevented, because six Fredonians can go to say, "This Elbonian is disrupting us," and six Elbonians can come to say, "This Fredonian is being incivil to us." In other words, without investigation and independence, all that happens is that more disruption results. Complaining is just as effective as name calling, if the goal is silencing another user.
"Incivility" is supposed to mean (by most lexical standards), that behavior that is against societal norms, something that arises from barbarity, a behavior that shows no awareness of the rules of conversation and which erodes civility. Well, that is only something we can interpret either A) by knowing exactly the rules of social behavior, B) assessing the effect of the speech or behavior and demonstrating a deterioration of social action. The only way that A) can be employed is by a survey or gaging "community standards." B) is easier, but, when we apply it in these cases (the Fredonians and Elbonians), what we see is that societies are at odds with one another, that the origin of the speech and behavior is one social group against another. It can therefore be a matter of insult or being insulted. If I can be insulted and offended on behalf of my Fredonian countrymen, then I can uphold my Fredonianism against the outsiders. If I can call the Fredonians murderous half-wits, then I can affirm my Elbonian society by putting down the awful Fredonians.
In other words, any administrator applying "incivility" to nationalist or ethnic or religious communities at odds with one another is completely out of his or her tree. Looking for "who feels insulted" is, simply put, nuts.
Obviously, we apply "civility" as a standard in these instances because we are silently (and, I think, unconsciously and ill-advisedly) supposing "in accordance with building an overall social group that is beyond and between the subgroups and ethnicities." In other words, what an uninvolved administrator has to look for is not insult, but, instead, "Who is trying to pit one group against another? Who is trying to subdivide the editing population to create an us and them?"
Anyway, that's what I think. Any subgroup that acts as a subgroup to define, block, or control another subgroup is being uncivil. Thus, when six or seven users mobilize instantly to try to get the editing privileges of another user curtailed, I fear that a new orthodoxy and control is being offered, and that's anathema. Geogre ( talk) 20:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Who is trying to pit one group against another? Who is trying to subdivide the editing population to create an us and them?"
Hmm, I can see you've thought about these issues quite deeply Geogre. I guess I could comment further, but I'd probably run the risk of being accused of "bigotry" or something again if I did, LOL.
Anyhow, I decided to withdraw my request for clarification at arbcom. For one thing, I have an obvious COI in raising the issue. For another, I really don't want to put Thatcher on the spot, because regardless of what one may think of her decisions, I'm sure she made them in good faith and I can understand why she did what she did. If she hadn't sanctioned me as well as the others there probably would have been a new round of complaint, so by doing so she effectively stopped the dispute from continuing.
Apart from which, she's indicated she will consider removing my notice in future given good behaviour, so I really don't have that much left to complain about. Gatoclass ( talk) 04:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Could you have a look at this if you get a chance (end of the Background section). Paulson advances a theory that it is anti-Pope, and I'm not sure of some his conclusions. Though I've been careful to point out they are his, a second opinion on whether it is worth including would be handy. (and what's this ...whose work is considered a high point of pre-industrial bookbinding... who is the great post-industrial bookbinder?) Yomangani talk 12:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, you've always been able to translate American into English for me. What is the usage of 'props' seen on the Swedish page - as in "major props to Bishonen". Obviously its congratulations/kudos etc. is it short for something? where does it come from? -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 14:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
“ | slang (orig. in African-American usage).
Due respect; approval, compliments, esteem. [App. < prop- (in PROPER adj.; app. understood as short for proper respect) + plural ending -s (prob. merely euphonic).] 1990 Chicago Tribune 29 July 2/4, I was one of the first female rappers, but I've always gotten my props. 1997 Touch May 24 Why do certain sectors of the music fraternity still refuse to give him due props? 2002 Electronic Gaming Monthly Feb. 164/1 Props to Tiburon for making use of the C stick on the controller. |
” |
A Tale of a Tub has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Cirt ( talk) 14:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC).
I think this is a good article and if someone more knowledgable on the topic isn't available to clean it up then I'll take a stab at it. But please don't remove the maintenance tags if you aren't willing to make any effort of your own; that's not helpful. — Kymacpherson ( talk) 15:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Victuallers ( talk) 15:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
On 17 January, following a series of edits to Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/IRC/Proposed decision, User:FloNight protected the page and added the following in an edit summary: "I protected the page from all editing until the case is closed or edits all agree to make all productive comments about the proposed ruling and not other editors". Flonight has not left any further messages as yet, so I am posting this message to all those who edited the page in this period, and asking them to consider signing this section at Flonight's talk page indicating that they will abide by this request. Hopefully this will help move the situation forward, and enable the talk page to be unprotected (with any necessary warnings added) so that any editor (including those uninvolved in this) can comment on the proposed decision. Thank you. Carcharoth ( talk) 05:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, I am looking at Somerset, which is at FAC, and I noticed that the history of the name uses the form "Sumorsǣte", with a bar on the æsc. I was wondering both what the difference is, and also whether it's correct in this form -- I assume the editor of the article got it from the source they cite for it, which is Victor Watts, Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names, but I thought you'd be a better person to ask for the first question. If you have a moment I'd be interested to know. Thanks -- Mike Christie (talk) 04:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
(Cross posted to Giano's talk page)
Does this sound like something you'd be interested in? Raul654 ( talk) 03:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Joopercoopers, I went there. I can't believe how cavalierly Marksell was insulting people in his opening salvo. It's a "mess" if people don't play along. Some dinosaurs like me write horrible articles like Emsworth's. (And yet, paradoxically, he also notes that people don't come forward to defend Emsworth, but they do when the articles are mine, and he has no explanation for that except that I'm still here. It couldn't be that these are not at all like one another, could it?) As for the person who is offering to reform our awful messes in the 18th c., I don't have anything against her, but these are not messes. In particular, having something like Bishonen's footnote-loaded Colley Cibber (we all have a copy of The Apology; the hard part is getting ahold of the scandalous letters) put in with my parenthetical-or-none articles is a real mistake, and I chide her for that alone. It's also offensive to have even the implication that I or others don't allow people to add citations. Hell, look at how much I had to suffer while they "fixed" Restoration literature. Just get serious sources, and for statements likely to be challenged (by sources), not "likely to be challenged by people wanting to be involved at FAR." Geogre ( talk) 12:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
How about I sandbox the article and add cites to that only. I'm aware of the book for only 19 days, I only know the period from paintings, but am fanicated by the sources I've found so far on Swift. I need to spend some time reading up, but if you could vet the sources I find, that would be great. Ceoil
I rather like Frank O'Connor. What I find interesting, among many other things, is just how twee Yeats and Gregory's vision was and how it was a course carried forward by the strength of name, and therefore one that was endlessly confining to other Irish writers. Basically, a cabal, if you will. O'Connor was more of a Dostoevskian writer, in my view, and aligned with American fiction to some degree, and O'Brien, of course (Brian O'Nolan, Flann O'Brien, Myles na gCopaleen), was aligned with American literature and what was happening in US circles. Either way, there was a heavy resentment of this Ireland of Myth, on the one hand, and Synge's Ireland of Cute People. (I have sympathy. As a southerner, I have seen the same strains in "southern literature." We get a great one like Faulkner or O'Connor, and suddenly all southern literature has to have sweaty plantations or "grotesques," and a bunch of southern writers are happy to oblige. The Thomas Wolfe side of things, the southern tradition influenced by Romanticism and French symbolism, is out of the picture (except sometimes in Truman Capote). The difference is that southern literature never got a group (with imported money) announcing that it was The Cultural Center.) Any group setting itself up as the power is a tyrannical and unrepresentative group almost instantly. It gets very quickly to a monoculture and an echo chamber of voices. Uh, I seem to have wandered. Geogre ( talk) 15:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Your talk about southern reminds me about how Cork and dublin bands are treated by papers of record. Forgive me the leap of logic, but dublin bands are given grativas in dublin's eyes, while the best of cork is 'quirky and momentarly distracting'. It's seems a universal principal is at work here. Ceoil ( talk) 16:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I hate to bother you with this, but since its a complex issue and you may be aware of some of the details since you've warned PHG ( talk · contribs) before, I was hoping you could take a new look. Recently I've become more involved in the talk page discussions and even reverted the article once, so I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to consider using any tools in the situation. The gist is this:
PHG's behavior continues to become increasingly disruptive. He's now created a slow moving revert war with 3 other editors and is wikilawyering in great amounts on the talk page in an attempt to advocate for his preferred version. He's canvassed editors who've been in previous disputes with his opponents, editors who voted to keep one of his POV forks [5] [6] [7] [8] and invited in an editor who's already under ArbCom restrictions in the subject area [9] in an attempt to bolster his side of the debate. I've also recently discovered that he's been using misleading edit summaries and his "reverts" have also included the addition of more than 40 new paragraphs of highly disputed information (the unsupportable pov he's been pushing for four months now) and enough quotations and summaries from supposed sources to bring the number of total article notes to 401 ( example). In total, he's managed to sneak in another 50k worth of absolute crap (for comparison's sake, his original preferred version was 147k and the rewrite he keeps reverting is only 80k). See this for more details. Not to mention he's created scads of POV forks in further attempts to keep "his" OR somewhere (detailed here). You may also want to see this for a refresher on the background issues as well.
I'd like to see the other editors who are discussing on the talk page and trying to improve the article get a chance at it and if I weren't involved, I'd consider blocking him for this continued disruption. Could you take a gander and see what your feeling is on the issue? Shell babelfish 22:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You are incorrect that there has been no finding regarding Giano's behavior; Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova#Giano is less than two months old, and Giano has again done virtually everything that was mentioned there.
Fundamentally, the success of the project requires that we maintain an atmosphere that is at least broadly tolerable, if not necessarily pleasant. Disputes are supposed to be resolved through polite discussion; Giano, however, is more likely to use rumor-mongering, provocation, insults, calumny, and character assassination. These are more effective methods, to be sure; but that doesn't make them acceptable. This is not a political arena.
And it is your responsibility, as a respected administrator, to act as a moderating influence—to calm the dispute and encourage editors to act in a manner compatible with community norms—rather than throwing gasoline on the flames. The same applies to Bishonen.
So what happened here? This is not a case of routine 3RR or even wheel-warring, originally. Rather, Giano set out to add comments that were deliberately provocative to the other editors of the page and, more importantly, clearly intended to besmirch the reputation of anyone using the IRC channel. That he felt their reputations were worthy of besmirching is utterly irrelevant; this is not how we do things here. And then, rather than pulling him aside and asking him to act with a bit more decorum, both of you stepped in to carry on the dispute. Again, you may have been correct in substance; but the way in which you acted was unbecoming.
Or, to quote the infamous m:Don't be a dick:
Being right about an issue does not mean you're not being a dick! Dicks can be right — but they're still dicks; if there's something in what they say that is worth hearing, it goes unheard, because no one likes listening to dicks. It doesn't matter how right they are.
The sad thing in all this is that Giano says a great many things that we would listen to if not for his thoroughly atrocious manner of saying them. Kirill 17:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Four threads up, Geogre, you suggested that "cavalierly, Marksell was insulting people." [comma inserted]. I responded that I intended no insult. I would like the field to be clear, so to speak. What I find cavalier is that, after numerous hours spent crafting responses to you over two years (honestly, check), you'd so casually lack AGF when you see my sig.
I don't get it. I honestly don't. Maybe you don't pay attention to sigs? Or maybe you conflate them? You've conflated mine with what you don't like about FAR? What is it? I'm not going to kiss your ass re main space contributions, because I think you're an editor that doesn't need his ass kissed. So, really: could you respond? And respond to me, man—I've already read the boilerplate about your hating bots and this and that. Can I talk to you? If not, why not? Marskell ( talk) 21:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I say that sages and projects as determinants of whether an article is properly cited is outside of Wikipedia's remit. Why? Well, Wikipedia replaced an "expert only" project and was attractive because it accepted all persons. The belief that licenses this is that all of us, collectively, are smarter than any of us, individually. Of course, there are numerous debunkings of this idea. It's not an accurate model. However, whatever problems there are with the utopian ideal of the GNU folks, the fact is that Wikipedia does not demand that editors establish credentials, does not accept authority based upon them, does not test them, and does not work with external status as "experts" in any form. It therefore really does not do well to have an internal establishment of a "Sage" as anything but an informal and fluid expression of trust. It cannot be given, cannot be cemented, cannot be affixed like a gold star to the forehead. (Yes, I say this as a person who could pass any external verification, but I don't want to have more say in matters because of anything like that. I demand that I get respect by my words and deeds, and not my diplomas or publications.)
Projects are another matter, slightly. They're voluntary and self-selected, and I generally applaud them as the inevitable result of our chaos. However, so long as they are self-selected and voluntary, they don't have power. There is a huge, huge difference between acting as a nexus for writing and editing and acting as an authority. A project is great as the former. It's onanism as the latter (at best). Nothing wrong with projects existing -- they would in any case -- but there is nothing right with them being in "control" of anything. Geogre ( talk) 15:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Since no one currently participating in the review (restarted very shortly after the last was closed as "keep"), I thought I would let you know that the review process has started again. I'm sure you'd probably noticed, but if none of them were willing to notify you per protocol, I thought I would do it. Regards, -- Bellwether B C 01:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Geogre, I'm partly to blame for this. The last time it was FAR'd, Marskell thought it was too hot for him to handle and asked me to take care it. I dropped the ball and Marskell ended up having to sort it out. The new FAR nom was started off shortly after the last one closed, and I told Marskell I really would keep an eye on it the second time around. I've decided to let this one go forward. The goal here is not to torment you, but to get an otherwise FA-quality article up to standard where the references are concerned. Raul654 ( talk) 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The truest words you have ever written on Wikipedia [10]. congratulations. Giano ( talk) 21:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I can describe my own process:
To say that I'm considering alternatives is an understatement. I and my 300 articles aren't doing much good as they wait for some random insult or injury. I did very good work for the form, but I also understand the form -- it's a form that is largely impossible to find -- and I find that the form is neither understood nor desired by the "writing" side, and writing is neither understood nor desired by the IRC hobbyists. Why, then, give the unwanted to the unknowing, when they will soon, out of revenge or native spite or bumbling ineptitude, mar it so that the unseen and unheard Reader will be unserved. Geogre ( talk) 14:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again for lending a neuron or two, it's still very much a work in (slow) progress at Wikipedia is not a sentient being. Another and perhaps not overly original idea at How to survive on Wikipedia - suggestions for de-bullshitting always welcome. Just in case you've got nothing better to do. Kosebamse ( talk) 13:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Look, there are some real issues and disputes out there, and I guess you an I will be on opposite sides on a good deal of them. But I've recently deliberately tried to keep it cool and de-escalate where I can. The purpose of dispute resolution is to resolve disputes as amicably as possible, not perpetuate point scoring and divisive polemic. You are an undoubted master of rhetoric, please please consider using it to state your case clearly and avoid heated remarks that tend to inflame and provoke. I'd like to assume that dispute resolution is the goal of every participant at this time, but I have to admit that sometimes that assumption is harder than at others. However, given arbcom's support for a finding asking ALL parties to tone it down and seek resolutions, perhaps all of us could use the opportunity to try a little harder.
To record what I'm talking about see this. Now, sometimes I have been guilty of missing the subtleties of your words, but in the present climate, using words like "quisling newbie" "arrogant" and "parasite" are not at all helpful. I'll not call them "personal attacks", or "incivil" because that's another minefield, it may well be that my pain reading of the remarks is wrong. This lecture is from a penitent, if not totally reformed, sinner, so any change of hypocrisy you care to make against me in return will doubtless be justified.-- Docg 17:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I've removed all comments other than Aza's original !vote. -- Joopercoopers ( talk) 15:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Per the section above, I'd like to make an impassioned plea for you not to step back from Wikipedia, not to decrease your level of activity. Perhaps disengage from discussions with people who add little content, aye. But one of the reasons that things occasionally appear to be getting worse is that the reasonable turd flingers are exhausted by the seemingly endless energy of those for whom Wikipedia serves only as a prop for their egos.
Things are getting, in some ways, heaps better. Yes, there has been a fair amount of kerfluffle lately from "old timers." It's a mere rattle, emitting a vague and senseless noise. It's the chattering of a corpse that knows not yet of its own death. On the ArbCom level, Newyorkbrad and FT2 look like Golden Rays of Sunlight to me. On the general plebian admin level, there are a large number of new admins who appear reasonable, open, and accomodating. There are several yearling admins who have continued to be the same. On the editor level, good quality content continues to get written.
Stay on lad, and don't let the blighters get you down.
152.91.9.144 ( talk) 07:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Would you kindly drop by Talk:Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi#For_reference_check_and_discussion_re:_John_Lennon_addition, wearing an editor hat, and tell me if I'm misunderstanding the situation? Nandesuka ( talk) 18:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
"JC: Yes, but studio executives always treat people like me, and writers in particular, as though we live in some kind of ivory tower. And these executives think they know what audiences really like, despite the fact that I've spent my life in front of audiences. And the executives have never been in front of audiences, apart from sycophantic young junior executives who wouldn't dare not laugh at their jokes. So the whole idea that they have some kind of practical knowledge that I don't have is so ludicrous that it does not bear inspection. But they hang onto it. They hang onto a mystical belief that in the moment they inherited the biggest desk and office in their block, they also inherited an understanding of comedy. And it's absolutely insane, but they really do think that they understand it. And so they start telling you to do things which you know are wrong, and I don't know how you can write something that you know is wrong. I mean, what do you try, do you try to write it badly so it will be better? " [11]
This arbitration case has closed and the final decision may be found at the link above. Giano is placed on civility restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling. All parties in this case are strongly cautioned to pursue disputes in a civil manner designed to contribute to resolution and to cause minimal disruption. All the involved editors, both the supporters and detractors of IRC, are asked to avoid edit warring on project space pages even if their status is unclear, and are instructed to use civil discussion to resolve all issues with respect to the "admin" IRC channel. For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 04:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
How about Wikipedia:Ping pong instead? Oh. Wrong case. Carcharoth ( talk) 14:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, actually, some context: in Ars Poetica, Horace is speaking of a bad poet who kept promising this Important Poem. He worked and worked and worked and spoke of it over and over again, and then he produced a very bad, silly piece. Thus, "The mountains go into labor, and they give birth to a ridiculous mouse." The effort is massive, and the result is laughable. Hence, our very good friends accepted a case, announced all sorts of breakthroughs to be made, all sorts of peace to be created, all sorts of justice to be delivered, and then they produced... exactly what the were pregnant with. Geogre ( talk) 14:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I asked to be removed from the access list to the channel before the arbitration case was accepted [12] and have publicly asserted that I intend that to be permanent. [13]. Jimbo Wales clarified the way to handle complaints about IRC prior to the case [14]. The arbitration committee ruled (as it often has in the past) that provocative editing and warlike use of admin tools are not acceptable. And there won't (or shouldn't) be a repetition. This is something we can all live with. The Committee has announced that it is "formulating policy and procedure changes" based on Jimbo's clarification.
You state that "many people would far rather give up editing Wikipedia than give up talking on IRC" but I see no indication of where you arrived at this conclusion (at least one person who has announced that he is giving up editing Wikipedia does not use IRC at all). In short, I find it difficult to reconcile your description of the case with the facts available on-wiki. -- Tony Sidaway 17:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's take a hypothetical. Suppose that there are over 2000 eligible persons for a position, and let's suppose that 40 run for the position. Now, let's suppose that the "election" is really more or less window dressing, that the winners will be selected by a single individual. Is it likely that such an individual will be fully informed about the 40 candidates? Suppose also that the person has a job or two in real life.
Ok, now let's suppose that there is a chat medium. It's attractive, because you don't really have to commit to getting a ton of background. You can go there, hear from people, utter a pronouncement or two, and then log off and go back to work. As soon as you show up, though, you hear great things about certain people and bad things about other people, and most people say very flattering things to you. If you were Solomon himself, your head would be turned.
So, let's suppose, again hypothetically, that the "selection" of candidates had something to do with these reports, or the flattery, or just familiarity, or even because one assumes that chatting shows dedication. It does not matter why or how. We only need to suppose that it has an effect, that it is a way to go from "just some name" to "known by Himself."
Here, then, comes the issue. Some people (rather a lot, unfortunately) say that the medium by which you pop in, chat a bit, and go back to work, is bad, that it has bad effects, or that it has been misused. Well, if you're Himself, it has to be puzzling. After all, every time you've been there, there is only peace and kindness to be seen. If you're one of those selected rather than elected, you have to be conscious of the fact that this medium is one of the keys to keeping you from being anonymous, that it is the doorway to Himself.
So, let's just ask the question: in such a hypothetical realm, how likely is it that the selected-not-elected would take the concerns of others seriously? How likely is it that they would want to see any substantial change to it? How likely is it that they would tolerate a suggestion that it be dismantled?
That's what I think, too. Geogre ( talk) 12:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I was looking into the tenses, and I found: “Parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus” or “Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus” with the future instead of the present ‘parturiunt’, as we have two lections. - which translates as "The mountains are in labour/ will be in labour, a ridiculous mouse will be born" - I corrected one part of the spelling, but when correcting another part, I think I got the tense wrong. Parturiunt = are in labour, and Parturient = will be labour. Of course, the mountains will continue to labour, and hopefully will bring forth some lions instead of mice, but surely you want to say that the mountains have laboured, and have brought forth a mouse. Or would that get too far from the original? Carcharoth ( talk) 15:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)