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The full titles of the Jackson films really should be spelled out, but it looks unsightly on 800 x 600 resolution. Uthanc 07:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
If the intent is to make the template a "one-stop shop" for all LOTR links, they should be compartmentalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.57.47.249 ( talk) 04:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Minas Morgul is not in Mordor, which the template seems to indicate by it being in parentheses. Lava Lamps ( talk) 20:28, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: regarding your revert, 2 articles are titled as "Battle of xx", which means that articles in question are either a) about an event, specially a battle, which means that my edit was correct in moving them from a location section, or b) that they are titled incorrectly and that they are about a location which has a sub-section of an event. Looking at Battle of the Morannon, the article is entirely about the event, as it should be. In en.eiki standards, the "Morannon" would not be notable enough for a stand-alone article. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well. -- Gonnym ( talk) 08:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Template:Middle-earth dwarves. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Gonnym ( talk) 20:09, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: please provide reliable sources to support your suggestion that this series is based on The Silmarillion. As can be clearly seen by the reliable sources that are already at The Lord of the Rings (TV series), the series is based exclusively on the LOTR books and not any of Tolkien's other works. - adamstom97 ( talk) 10:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: Maybe you'd like to know that similar templates on literary works etc. tend to do without a side illustration (which I think is a good thing, actually, mainly in terms of a clear, concise layout – especially when dealing with more detailed content, as is the case here). But this remains a matter of taste, of course. Best wishes-- Hildeoc ( talk) 13:46, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: What do you think?-- Hildeoc ( talk) 22:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
I told you already that I think a narrow image entirely appropriate as it takes a small percentage of the width - I even made it narrower for you - and it's very appropriate for the navbar, encapsulating the theme perfectly. In short it's splendid. It contains more than 50 Good Articles representing thousands of hours of work. Enough said Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Two things have been confused in the recent destruction of the Maiar subgroup in the template. The one that matters is that the characters listed are of a kind, beings of great power, not ordinary Monsters, not Free Peoples, certainly not beasts; and as it happens this group does have a name, Maiar. The one that doesn't matter is that the book doesn't spend time going on about what exactly they are. The current situation, bundling the wizards unceremoniously into 'Other', is just a mess, a move directly in the wrong direction. I suppose the subgroup could be labelled 'Beings of power' and wikilinked to Maiar, but why don't we just call a spade a spade honestly. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
At the risk of stating the obvious, The Lord of the Rings is a work of fantasy literature, and this template is accordingly literary and fantasy-centred. Its adaptations have taken it into theatre, film, music, and visual art: all artistic media. The template has never been political in nature, and there is no reason to make it so now. Wikipedia has many politics articles with their own navboxes: this is not one of them. The recently-created article Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials is evidently a matter of Turkish politics with a judicial aspect: none of those things are concerns of this template. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the user who put the "Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials" into the template. I honestly thought that the page did belong in "The Lord of the Rings" template. Though admittedly, I did have to put the page into the "Reception" section which was the relevant part I could shoehorn it into. I'm very sorry if you thought I was sending a political message with my edit, this honestly was not my intention. I will now the reasons how I found the page and why I thought it deserved a place in the template. I had only found about the page and the trials themselves because the page was displayed in the "Did you know?" column on the Wikipedia Main Page today.
It seemed notable because this had real life consequences for the people involved. Three people from Turkey (all in separate incidents) were charged with a crime in their home country and sent to court over pictures they posted on the internet that compared photographs of the President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan to photographs of the character Gollum in the Peter Jackson film series adaption of The Lord of the Rings. The fact the incidents involved a Lord of the Rings character make me think that it was appropriate to add the page to the template.
Another reason I though made me consider it appropriate was the fact that there was a precedent on other Wikipedia pages which involved a President of another country compared to another fictional character and a similar negative reaction from the government of that other country. The pages both for Winnie-the-Pooh and the Disney version of that character mention that images similar from that of the previously mentioned incidents circulated on the internet comparing photographs President of China Xi Jingping to drawings of the Disney version of Winnie-the-Pooh. The Chinese government did not take kindly to the comparison and as a result, has suppressed Winnie-the-Pooh and websites in China have removed, blurred out, or otherwise censored all images of the character on their sites, even when they don't have anything to do with Xi. The Wikipedia pages for both the original version of Winnie-the-Pooh and the Disney version mention the incident and both pages otherwise do not mention any political subject at any other point other than when they mention the images comparing Chinese President Xi to the fictional and the Chinese government reaction to those images.
Once again, I like to apologize for unintentionally causing trouble and I hope that Chiswick Chap will forgive me. Thanks for reading! -- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 22:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Oh, and one last thing, another precedent, this one involving an template, so this might also be of interest here. This precedent in question is on the template for the German band Nena, famous for the 1980s song " 99 Luftballons/99 Red Balloons (two versions of the songs were recorded, one in German, another in English, both versions charted worldwide though the US preferred the German version despite the existence of the English version). This one involved another 1980s Nena song that charted in German speaking countries called " Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" (meaning "Somehow, somewhere, sometime"). In the template, in the "Related" section, is a link to the page about a spoof of the song "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" titled " Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan", which means "Erdo-how, Erdo-where, Erdogan" (a reference to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the same person who was compared to Gollum). This spoof of the song was not recorded by either the band Nena or its lead singer who is also called " Nena", but was instead a performed on a German comedy television show called " extra 3" hosted by German comedian Christian Ehring on the channel " ARD". The song "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" uses the same tune as "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" but with its lyrics replaced with ones satirising Erdoğan. As with the Gollum and the Winnie-the-Pooh comparisons, it's the reaction by an national government that makes it noteworthy. The Turkish government considered "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" defamation against Erdoğan and demanded that ARD delete a video of the song that was posted on the internet, ARD refused because the considered the song an expression of freedom of speech. When this was reported by the media, the video became much more popular and gained even more views on internet then it did on television, and English subtitles were added to the video as a result. This lead to a diplomatic incident between the German and Turkish governments. In response, another German comedian Jan Böhmermann, on his show " Neo Magazin Royale" on the channel " ZDFneo" wrote and recited a profanity-laced poem about Erdoğan that Böhmermann acknowledged was written to deliberately offend Erdoğan. This seemed to have worked because Erdoğan personally sent a complaint to " ZDF" and AFD (which both run the channel). The "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" page briefly mentions "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" and the scandal it caused in the section "Satirical version" but other avoids political topics in the rest of the page itself (except the Cold War and the Berlin Wall as the page mentions that the singer Neno lived near the Berlin Wall when during the Cold War before she wrote).
That was another reason I added the "Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials" into the template. It does some take time for me to type this so I'll stop now but before that, I have to ask a question that I meant to ask the first time. Can you please say directly say whether or not the link is allowed back in the template now? Once again, sorry for causing this hassle and I like to thank Chiswick Chap for his understanding. Thanks for reading!-- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 23:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough, I will respect the decision. Also, I advise Chiswick Chap to also remove the things I previously mentioned since according to him, they all break the rules of this site, something I didn't know when I started this. Thanks for reading!-- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 20:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Woodensuperman, I'd be entirely within rights to revert again to the status quo ante, which is the proper place when a change has not been agreed, indeed has already been reverted with an explanation, and an explicit invitation to discuss here on the talk page. WP:BRD mandates you to be Bold, me to Revert, and both of us to Discuss here should agreement not already have been reached. Be that as it may, your reasoning isn't correct. The image is in no way "decorative"; as I already stated in the edit comment, the One Ring is a highly distinctive and widely-recognised icon of The Lord of the Rings. I have literally no idea what your talk of shifting the collapsible part of the template might mean; on all the browsers that I use (by different manufacturers, on different platforms) it all works perfectly, whether 'Adaptations and derivative works' is shown or hidden. We should put the icon back for the benefit of readers. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
An icon is purely decorative if it does not improve comprehension of the article subject and serves no navigational function, which is exactly what we're seeing here. It is 100% not necessary. -- wooden superman 05:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Middle-earth Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
Novels Template‑class | |||||||
|
Children's literature Template‑class | ||||||||||||||
|
The full titles of the Jackson films really should be spelled out, but it looks unsightly on 800 x 600 resolution. Uthanc 07:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
If the intent is to make the template a "one-stop shop" for all LOTR links, they should be compartmentalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.57.47.249 ( talk) 04:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Minas Morgul is not in Mordor, which the template seems to indicate by it being in parentheses. Lava Lamps ( talk) 20:28, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: regarding your revert, 2 articles are titled as "Battle of xx", which means that articles in question are either a) about an event, specially a battle, which means that my edit was correct in moving them from a location section, or b) that they are titled incorrectly and that they are about a location which has a sub-section of an event. Looking at Battle of the Morannon, the article is entirely about the event, as it should be. In en.eiki standards, the "Morannon" would not be notable enough for a stand-alone article. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well. -- Gonnym ( talk) 08:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Template:Middle-earth dwarves. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Gonnym ( talk) 20:09, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: please provide reliable sources to support your suggestion that this series is based on The Silmarillion. As can be clearly seen by the reliable sources that are already at The Lord of the Rings (TV series), the series is based exclusively on the LOTR books and not any of Tolkien's other works. - adamstom97 ( talk) 10:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: Maybe you'd like to know that similar templates on literary works etc. tend to do without a side illustration (which I think is a good thing, actually, mainly in terms of a clear, concise layout – especially when dealing with more detailed content, as is the case here). But this remains a matter of taste, of course. Best wishes-- Hildeoc ( talk) 13:46, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Chiswick Chap: What do you think?-- Hildeoc ( talk) 22:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
I told you already that I think a narrow image entirely appropriate as it takes a small percentage of the width - I even made it narrower for you - and it's very appropriate for the navbar, encapsulating the theme perfectly. In short it's splendid. It contains more than 50 Good Articles representing thousands of hours of work. Enough said Chiswick Chap ( talk) 04:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Two things have been confused in the recent destruction of the Maiar subgroup in the template. The one that matters is that the characters listed are of a kind, beings of great power, not ordinary Monsters, not Free Peoples, certainly not beasts; and as it happens this group does have a name, Maiar. The one that doesn't matter is that the book doesn't spend time going on about what exactly they are. The current situation, bundling the wizards unceremoniously into 'Other', is just a mess, a move directly in the wrong direction. I suppose the subgroup could be labelled 'Beings of power' and wikilinked to Maiar, but why don't we just call a spade a spade honestly. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
At the risk of stating the obvious, The Lord of the Rings is a work of fantasy literature, and this template is accordingly literary and fantasy-centred. Its adaptations have taken it into theatre, film, music, and visual art: all artistic media. The template has never been political in nature, and there is no reason to make it so now. Wikipedia has many politics articles with their own navboxes: this is not one of them. The recently-created article Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials is evidently a matter of Turkish politics with a judicial aspect: none of those things are concerns of this template. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the user who put the "Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials" into the template. I honestly thought that the page did belong in "The Lord of the Rings" template. Though admittedly, I did have to put the page into the "Reception" section which was the relevant part I could shoehorn it into. I'm very sorry if you thought I was sending a political message with my edit, this honestly was not my intention. I will now the reasons how I found the page and why I thought it deserved a place in the template. I had only found about the page and the trials themselves because the page was displayed in the "Did you know?" column on the Wikipedia Main Page today.
It seemed notable because this had real life consequences for the people involved. Three people from Turkey (all in separate incidents) were charged with a crime in their home country and sent to court over pictures they posted on the internet that compared photographs of the President of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdoğan to photographs of the character Gollum in the Peter Jackson film series adaption of The Lord of the Rings. The fact the incidents involved a Lord of the Rings character make me think that it was appropriate to add the page to the template.
Another reason I though made me consider it appropriate was the fact that there was a precedent on other Wikipedia pages which involved a President of another country compared to another fictional character and a similar negative reaction from the government of that other country. The pages both for Winnie-the-Pooh and the Disney version of that character mention that images similar from that of the previously mentioned incidents circulated on the internet comparing photographs President of China Xi Jingping to drawings of the Disney version of Winnie-the-Pooh. The Chinese government did not take kindly to the comparison and as a result, has suppressed Winnie-the-Pooh and websites in China have removed, blurred out, or otherwise censored all images of the character on their sites, even when they don't have anything to do with Xi. The Wikipedia pages for both the original version of Winnie-the-Pooh and the Disney version mention the incident and both pages otherwise do not mention any political subject at any other point other than when they mention the images comparing Chinese President Xi to the fictional and the Chinese government reaction to those images.
Once again, I like to apologize for unintentionally causing trouble and I hope that Chiswick Chap will forgive me. Thanks for reading! -- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 22:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Oh, and one last thing, another precedent, this one involving an template, so this might also be of interest here. This precedent in question is on the template for the German band Nena, famous for the 1980s song " 99 Luftballons/99 Red Balloons (two versions of the songs were recorded, one in German, another in English, both versions charted worldwide though the US preferred the German version despite the existence of the English version). This one involved another 1980s Nena song that charted in German speaking countries called " Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" (meaning "Somehow, somewhere, sometime"). In the template, in the "Related" section, is a link to the page about a spoof of the song "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" titled " Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan", which means "Erdo-how, Erdo-where, Erdogan" (a reference to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the same person who was compared to Gollum). This spoof of the song was not recorded by either the band Nena or its lead singer who is also called " Nena", but was instead a performed on a German comedy television show called " extra 3" hosted by German comedian Christian Ehring on the channel " ARD". The song "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" uses the same tune as "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" but with its lyrics replaced with ones satirising Erdoğan. As with the Gollum and the Winnie-the-Pooh comparisons, it's the reaction by an national government that makes it noteworthy. The Turkish government considered "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" defamation against Erdoğan and demanded that ARD delete a video of the song that was posted on the internet, ARD refused because the considered the song an expression of freedom of speech. When this was reported by the media, the video became much more popular and gained even more views on internet then it did on television, and English subtitles were added to the video as a result. This lead to a diplomatic incident between the German and Turkish governments. In response, another German comedian Jan Böhmermann, on his show " Neo Magazin Royale" on the channel " ZDFneo" wrote and recited a profanity-laced poem about Erdoğan that Böhmermann acknowledged was written to deliberately offend Erdoğan. This seemed to have worked because Erdoğan personally sent a complaint to " ZDF" and AFD (which both run the channel). The "Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwann" page briefly mentions "Erdowie, Erdowo, Erdogan" and the scandal it caused in the section "Satirical version" but other avoids political topics in the rest of the page itself (except the Cold War and the Berlin Wall as the page mentions that the singer Neno lived near the Berlin Wall when during the Cold War before she wrote).
That was another reason I added the "Erdoğan–Gollum comparison trials" into the template. It does some take time for me to type this so I'll stop now but before that, I have to ask a question that I meant to ask the first time. Can you please say directly say whether or not the link is allowed back in the template now? Once again, sorry for causing this hassle and I like to thank Chiswick Chap for his understanding. Thanks for reading!-- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 23:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Fair enough, I will respect the decision. Also, I advise Chiswick Chap to also remove the things I previously mentioned since according to him, they all break the rules of this site, something I didn't know when I started this. Thanks for reading!-- 109.76.97.207 ( talk) 20:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Woodensuperman, I'd be entirely within rights to revert again to the status quo ante, which is the proper place when a change has not been agreed, indeed has already been reverted with an explanation, and an explicit invitation to discuss here on the talk page. WP:BRD mandates you to be Bold, me to Revert, and both of us to Discuss here should agreement not already have been reached. Be that as it may, your reasoning isn't correct. The image is in no way "decorative"; as I already stated in the edit comment, the One Ring is a highly distinctive and widely-recognised icon of The Lord of the Rings. I have literally no idea what your talk of shifting the collapsible part of the template might mean; on all the browsers that I use (by different manufacturers, on different platforms) it all works perfectly, whether 'Adaptations and derivative works' is shown or hidden. We should put the icon back for the benefit of readers. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 15:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
An icon is purely decorative if it does not improve comprehension of the article subject and serves no navigational function, which is exactly what we're seeing here. It is 100% not necessary. -- wooden superman 05:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)