Croatia Template‑class | |||||||
|
Languages Template‑class | |||||||
|
Do all dialects, mentioned here, belong to Central South Slavic diasystem? Are you sure? Kubura 14:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
It is based on the Serbian Alphabet but the language is not Central South Slavic. Alex 202.10.89.28 11:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Đorđe and Anton, you guys should come up with a consensus on whether Torlak is Western or Transitional. It doesn't surprise me that Pavle Ivić and Stefan Mladenov would say what they did - one need only look at their surnames. So argue your points here please. Balkan Fever 06:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that there is necessity to explain the oppinions of these linguists who consider the Torlak dialects as more closer to the Eastern South Slavonic group. One of the reasons - here isn't a court who will decide whether they are Bulgarian/Macedonian, Serbian or Transitional. The fact is that these prominent authors have this oppinion and they argue it. In the relevant article and its discussion page we can concentrate to the essence of the concrete arguments. For me is very clear that the grammar of my own dialect is not Serbian (the lack of the cases (only remainders as in some other BG linguistic structures), the articals etc), (also - ъ (дън, овън, едън, овъс, петъл, старъц, лъсън..), -l in the final (бел not бео, петъл, not петао...) etc., etc.), byt there is not important my or your oppinion. Important are the facts:
Ofcource, these 3 points are not so categorically defended by all authors. As I wrote, some of them have important nuances (for example Mladenov - Transitional, but Bulgarian). However I know that you will not deny that there are such oppinions. Regards, -- JSimin ( talk) 12:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I am familiar with this POV. The similarities with Eastern, Bulgarian-Macedonian group are accidental phenomenons, but the similarities with Serbo-Croation group are basical. But why exactly these "serbian" dialects have exactly these features? Maybe they are not only Serbian? :). Р.S. "crn" (not črn) we can notice and in the other Bulgarian dialectical regions outside of the Torlak area. Regards, -- JSimin ( talk) 20:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Genetically there are 2 groups of dialects: Western South Slavic and Eastern South Slavic. Slavic Dialects of Croatia, Serbia, B&H, Montenegro and Kosovo belong to WSS, not some godforsaken "Central South Slavic" group, which is a term coined by Brozović for the sole purpose of replacing Serbo-Croatian anachronism. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 12:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
"Nigger" was also "common name". Kubura ( talk) 02:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Why have I removed "Serbo-Croatian" and inserted "Central South Slavic diasystem"?
Colleague Ivan Štambuk nicely explained that here
[2]
"Dear Serbo-Croatian comrades,... you...having been indoctrinated by books written by ex-professors of "Serbo-Croatian languages" who graduated "Yugoslavistics", which for pure political reasons pushed the notion of "Serbo-Croatian dialects" as an alleged "genetic node" in the South Slavic branch. This notion of abundantly exploited for misappropriation of Croat-only cultural heritage, of which there are plenty of remnants in modern Serbian books (...bugaršćice by Molise Croats and medieval Čakavian writers like Hektorović as a part of "Serbian epic poetry"...)...".
Kubura (
talk) 03:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"Western Shtokavian", "Central Shtokavian" and "Eastern Shtokavian"??
Wikipedia is not a place for original works.
Kubura (
talk) 19:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
The current position of Slovene in the template makes it look as if it is a part of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian language or language family, which is a bit odd, so it would be nice if someone could correct this error. 89.143.43.52 ( talk) 17:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You people are producing complete mess. Croatian Čakavian, Croatian Kajkavian and Slovene Kajkavian were mutually in close relations in history and by historical developement. These idioms cannot be covered by S-H umbrella since in no way they contributted to Serbian language. All these S-H mania is one huge original research by a few wikipedians, probably politically frustrated individuals who use wikipedia for healing their private wounds. How it is possible that it works? How do you let them do so? 78.0.144.172 ( talk) 08:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Is someone joking here [3]??? "Ikavian" as part of Serbian? Some isolated groups of Croatian diaspora speak Torlak, but that doesn't make that dialect as Croatian. Also, if some Serbs used Ikavian speech (children of JNA officers from Serbia distributed in areas where Croatian Ikavian is majority speech), that doesn't make that speech as Serb speech. Kubura ( talk) 02:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
No it doesn't make it Croatian! There are American Croats in USA and they speak English in their common lives, but it doesn't mean that English language is Croatian! Torlakian is Torlakian, it served as base for Serbian language developement in history, never Croatian. Existing of small groups within other ethno-cultural territories doesn't change those ethno-cultural territories. It changes small groups outside of their native environment! You, mr. I.Š. are throwing dust into eyes, you want to produce complete mess from what unexisting Serbo-Croatian will arise as a phoenix. 78.0.144.172 ( talk) 08:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Croatian IS valid linguistic term. There're Croats in Belgrade that declare as Croats, that speak with the local dialect of Serbian, but that doesn't make the Shumadian dialect as a Croatian dialect. And there're Croats in Sofia and some other Bulgarian towns, originating from the Kosovo, that live there for more than century. They declare as Croats, but they speak the local dialect of Bulgarian. But that doesn't make that dialect as Croatian dialect. Kubura ( talk) 00:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
What? The Torlakian is Croatian dialect? Doncsecz talk 09:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Slovene:
Croatian:
Serbian:
What is important here that Serbian language has connections only to Štokavian Croatian. If you want to invent and introduce S-C in categorization, it can work only for Štokavian dialects of Croatian and Serbian. It can't work for Čakavian and Kajkavian Croatian, in this case you should invent Croato-Slovene language too! Categorization you use is false. 78.0.154.106 ( talk) 10:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC) But if there would be Croato-Serbian nad Croato-Slovene then there should be also Serbo-Macedonian! The Serbs have used Croatian language as model for standardization in the 19th century and borrowed a lot, but the most of Serbian vocabulary remained the same and that's one share with the Macedonians. So Slovene would be S.S. and Croato-Slovene, Croatian would be S.S and Croato-Slovene & Croato-Serbian, Serbian would be S.S. and Croato-Serbian & Serbo-Macedonian, Macedonian would be S.S. & Serbo-Macedonian. LOL Completely useless but anyway it's incomparably more accurate than insisting on only some Serbo-Croatian. 78.0.154.106 ( talk) 12:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Do I have a better one? Oh God. Yes I have. And it's not mine. It's "South Slavic languages". What is your problem? If you want to invent new linguistic classifications go to academy, write your own original research, get some UDK number and your idea wil be treated as scientific work. If you want to write encyclopedia, then be an ecyclopedist. Don't invent anything. What you have made here is a circus. Now it's gone too far and you don't want to change anything. This give wikipedia a very bad name! 78.3.120.82 ( talk) 10:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Torlakian dialect is not Croatian dialect. Torlakian dialest is Bulgarian, Serbian ad Macedonian. http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/historical/balkan_dialects_1914.jpg http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/bosnia/serbia_macedonia.jpg http://www.experiencefestival.com/torlakian_dialect_-_assimilation_of_torlaks http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Torlakian_dialect::sub::Literature http://www.bulgariagovernment.com/images/bulgaria_simeon_i_893-927.png http://forum.banjaluka.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=51863 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.168.103.169 ( talk) 13:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Croatia Template‑class | |||||||
|
Languages Template‑class | |||||||
|
Do all dialects, mentioned here, belong to Central South Slavic diasystem? Are you sure? Kubura 14:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
It is based on the Serbian Alphabet but the language is not Central South Slavic. Alex 202.10.89.28 11:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Đorđe and Anton, you guys should come up with a consensus on whether Torlak is Western or Transitional. It doesn't surprise me that Pavle Ivić and Stefan Mladenov would say what they did - one need only look at their surnames. So argue your points here please. Balkan Fever 06:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that there is necessity to explain the oppinions of these linguists who consider the Torlak dialects as more closer to the Eastern South Slavonic group. One of the reasons - here isn't a court who will decide whether they are Bulgarian/Macedonian, Serbian or Transitional. The fact is that these prominent authors have this oppinion and they argue it. In the relevant article and its discussion page we can concentrate to the essence of the concrete arguments. For me is very clear that the grammar of my own dialect is not Serbian (the lack of the cases (only remainders as in some other BG linguistic structures), the articals etc), (also - ъ (дън, овън, едън, овъс, петъл, старъц, лъсън..), -l in the final (бел not бео, петъл, not петао...) etc., etc.), byt there is not important my or your oppinion. Important are the facts:
Ofcource, these 3 points are not so categorically defended by all authors. As I wrote, some of them have important nuances (for example Mladenov - Transitional, but Bulgarian). However I know that you will not deny that there are such oppinions. Regards, -- JSimin ( talk) 12:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I am familiar with this POV. The similarities with Eastern, Bulgarian-Macedonian group are accidental phenomenons, but the similarities with Serbo-Croation group are basical. But why exactly these "serbian" dialects have exactly these features? Maybe they are not only Serbian? :). Р.S. "crn" (not črn) we can notice and in the other Bulgarian dialectical regions outside of the Torlak area. Regards, -- JSimin ( talk) 20:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Genetically there are 2 groups of dialects: Western South Slavic and Eastern South Slavic. Slavic Dialects of Croatia, Serbia, B&H, Montenegro and Kosovo belong to WSS, not some godforsaken "Central South Slavic" group, which is a term coined by Brozović for the sole purpose of replacing Serbo-Croatian anachronism. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 12:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
"Nigger" was also "common name". Kubura ( talk) 02:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Why have I removed "Serbo-Croatian" and inserted "Central South Slavic diasystem"?
Colleague Ivan Štambuk nicely explained that here
[2]
"Dear Serbo-Croatian comrades,... you...having been indoctrinated by books written by ex-professors of "Serbo-Croatian languages" who graduated "Yugoslavistics", which for pure political reasons pushed the notion of "Serbo-Croatian dialects" as an alleged "genetic node" in the South Slavic branch. This notion of abundantly exploited for misappropriation of Croat-only cultural heritage, of which there are plenty of remnants in modern Serbian books (...bugaršćice by Molise Croats and medieval Čakavian writers like Hektorović as a part of "Serbian epic poetry"...)...".
Kubura (
talk) 03:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"Western Shtokavian", "Central Shtokavian" and "Eastern Shtokavian"??
Wikipedia is not a place for original works.
Kubura (
talk) 19:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
The current position of Slovene in the template makes it look as if it is a part of the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian language or language family, which is a bit odd, so it would be nice if someone could correct this error. 89.143.43.52 ( talk) 17:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You people are producing complete mess. Croatian Čakavian, Croatian Kajkavian and Slovene Kajkavian were mutually in close relations in history and by historical developement. These idioms cannot be covered by S-H umbrella since in no way they contributted to Serbian language. All these S-H mania is one huge original research by a few wikipedians, probably politically frustrated individuals who use wikipedia for healing their private wounds. How it is possible that it works? How do you let them do so? 78.0.144.172 ( talk) 08:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Is someone joking here [3]??? "Ikavian" as part of Serbian? Some isolated groups of Croatian diaspora speak Torlak, but that doesn't make that dialect as Croatian. Also, if some Serbs used Ikavian speech (children of JNA officers from Serbia distributed in areas where Croatian Ikavian is majority speech), that doesn't make that speech as Serb speech. Kubura ( talk) 02:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
No it doesn't make it Croatian! There are American Croats in USA and they speak English in their common lives, but it doesn't mean that English language is Croatian! Torlakian is Torlakian, it served as base for Serbian language developement in history, never Croatian. Existing of small groups within other ethno-cultural territories doesn't change those ethno-cultural territories. It changes small groups outside of their native environment! You, mr. I.Š. are throwing dust into eyes, you want to produce complete mess from what unexisting Serbo-Croatian will arise as a phoenix. 78.0.144.172 ( talk) 08:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Croatian IS valid linguistic term. There're Croats in Belgrade that declare as Croats, that speak with the local dialect of Serbian, but that doesn't make the Shumadian dialect as a Croatian dialect. And there're Croats in Sofia and some other Bulgarian towns, originating from the Kosovo, that live there for more than century. They declare as Croats, but they speak the local dialect of Bulgarian. But that doesn't make that dialect as Croatian dialect. Kubura ( talk) 00:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
What? The Torlakian is Croatian dialect? Doncsecz talk 09:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Slovene:
Croatian:
Serbian:
What is important here that Serbian language has connections only to Štokavian Croatian. If you want to invent and introduce S-C in categorization, it can work only for Štokavian dialects of Croatian and Serbian. It can't work for Čakavian and Kajkavian Croatian, in this case you should invent Croato-Slovene language too! Categorization you use is false. 78.0.154.106 ( talk) 10:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC) But if there would be Croato-Serbian nad Croato-Slovene then there should be also Serbo-Macedonian! The Serbs have used Croatian language as model for standardization in the 19th century and borrowed a lot, but the most of Serbian vocabulary remained the same and that's one share with the Macedonians. So Slovene would be S.S. and Croato-Slovene, Croatian would be S.S and Croato-Slovene & Croato-Serbian, Serbian would be S.S. and Croato-Serbian & Serbo-Macedonian, Macedonian would be S.S. & Serbo-Macedonian. LOL Completely useless but anyway it's incomparably more accurate than insisting on only some Serbo-Croatian. 78.0.154.106 ( talk) 12:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Do I have a better one? Oh God. Yes I have. And it's not mine. It's "South Slavic languages". What is your problem? If you want to invent new linguistic classifications go to academy, write your own original research, get some UDK number and your idea wil be treated as scientific work. If you want to write encyclopedia, then be an ecyclopedist. Don't invent anything. What you have made here is a circus. Now it's gone too far and you don't want to change anything. This give wikipedia a very bad name! 78.3.120.82 ( talk) 10:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Torlakian dialect is not Croatian dialect. Torlakian dialest is Bulgarian, Serbian ad Macedonian. http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/historical/balkan_dialects_1914.jpg http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/bosnia/serbia_macedonia.jpg http://www.experiencefestival.com/torlakian_dialect_-_assimilation_of_torlaks http://www.servinghistory.com/topics/Torlakian_dialect::sub::Literature http://www.bulgariagovernment.com/images/bulgaria_simeon_i_893-927.png http://forum.banjaluka.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=51863 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.168.103.169 ( talk) 13:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)