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Palestine Template‑class | |||||||
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This template really shouldn't have an image. Also it shouldn't be called 'Nakba'. The reasons are as follows:
I will also notify WP:IPCOLL of this discussion.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 11:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Timeshifer: I'm glad that you moved the images to a less harmful location, but that does not address the concerns I raised above, about the relevancy of the images. What is your position on the issue? -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Moving to left
Timeshifter, "Images are part of encyclopedias" is a WP:ILIKEIT argument. Templates are not part of the prose on Wikipedia and therefore don't need illustrations, and I'm not sure what Wikimedia Commons has to do with this. Please stick to the issue at hand. --
Ynhockey (
Talk) 18:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I did a little survey of infoboxes or navboxes of this type. Images in infoboxes are very rare. A few - for example, Template:National Parks of Norway - have images, but the vast majority have none - see, for example, Template:Slavery, Template:Mountain Meadows massacre series, Template:Sept11, Template:Al-Jihad. These are all examples of boxes that are similar to this template, in that a picture could certainly have been included, yet the authors chose not to include one. Not that I think we can draw any conclusions from this. Personally, I don't think the images are irrelevant - the template is about depopulation and these are pictures of people depopulating - and I think pictures always make something better; on the other hand, the pictures don't make navigating any easier, they just make the box prettier, if that is a word that can be used about information on human suffering.
I do have another issue with this template, however, and one that is much more profound. This infobox needs a source. The box is a sort of navbox, pointing to articles on the individual villages. However, for more than half the villages there is no article. Normally, I would expect to see references in each of the individual articles, which would in turn account for the reliability of the infobox. In this case, though, where many individual articles are missing, I think there needs to be a source given for the information in the box.
Ideally, the source or sources for the list of villages should be in the box itself, but if there is nowhere to put it, I suggest that at least we list the sources on the talk page. This way, if the information in the box is challenged, we will be able to cite something. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 15:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Here is another navigation template with images:
Template:Holy sites in Judaism
It is in many articles, sometimes in the open state. See its "what links here" link. Here is one article with the template: Rachel's Tomb. The template is open there. I think it is open there because there is only one show/hide template on that article page. I don't know for sure. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 03:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent). I have no idea which villages were depopulated during the time period around the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Are there before and after maps with enough detail? This might be correlated with lists from other sites. Some of the villages may no longer be labeled on the maps after the war. What did PalestineRemembered.com use as sources for its info? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 19:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Is it at all possible for us to change the color scheme? Red on yellow is very visually distracting. The Squicks ( talk) 20:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It is really extremely inconvenient to have this template collapsed for those of us who work on the 1948-villages...both Tiamut and myself (who are the editors who, beside Al Ameer son, who have worked most on them) have "uncollapsed" it. Yes; I *know* it is not a very pretty template at the moment (with all its red links)...but this is a work very much in progress, so please bear over with it. I navigate with the help of this template all the time... Regards, Huldra ( talk) 21:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
This isnt pretty, however you can force the table to display using the following user style:
.navbox_pavdd1948pw * table { display: block !important } .navbox_pavdd1948pw * table tr { display: block !important }
I have only tested it in Firefox. Maybe someone can figure out how to make it a bit less ugly. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I move this to al-Nakba? The phrase gets 2.3 million hits on Google and has passed into the English language. It's much clearer than the current very long title, in my view. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 21:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
A little while ago stubs were created for all of the missing articles in this cluster. The result was that all articles on this template become the same colour, blue, which meant that it was difficult for contributors to see at a glance whether an article had already been developed. One solution is to use the user preference to enable a different colour for small articles, and a similar solution is possible with the PAGESIZE function. (see /sandbox) The current solution (added Aug. 19) is to add a CSS class to each "stub" article, like so:
{{span2|class=Blofeld_stub|[[page name]]}}
This is removed when the page has been expanded. e.g. [1]
To apply a different colour to these stubs, add the following to your stylesheet:
.Blofeld_stub a { text-decoration: none; color: Coral; }
In that example, "Coral" can be replaced with any web colour. -- John Vandenberg ( chat) 05:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment: This navbox looks like it has turned into a list article. IMHO, navboxes should be relatively short, providing links to the major articles related to a topic, with those articles in turn linking to more details. It may be that this topic needs more higher-level articles that this navbox can use.
My general rule of thumb is that a navbox should ideally contain no more than a dozen lines of text and definitely no more than 20. Beyond that point the navbox is more of a distraction than a help.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 15:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
The very title of this article is loaded with POV implications. "Depopulation" is hardly an accepted fact by historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.134.250 ( talk) 05:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I looked at almost all the names in this template and although i didn't count, i got the perception that there were more hamlets than villages. Should the title be changed to reflect this? 89.242.82.200 ( talk) 16:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The main color was changed by an IP on the 15th sept here, with the edit-line "(per wp:deviations)".
We have previously discussed this (with Al Ameer son, if I recall), and we generally agreed that green was a good solution, as it matched the color of the info-box.
However, I do not know if it makes if more difficult to read for people with color-blindness, or similar visual impairments?
If the change is only done because "blue is standard", then I oppose it, and suggest we return to the whole-green solution. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 22:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the IP that per WP:Deviations the greenish should be removed. It looks more professional to have one consistent style. Africa boxes in black, China in yellow, American Indians in Red? Androoox ( talk) 08:10, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Why is not Atlit, district of Haifa, included in the template? Morris includes it (see User:Huldra/Morris-list village #387), and Khalidi includes it. If there are no protest, I will include it in the near future. Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 22:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
"War" in the main article's title ( 1948 Palestine war) has lower case letters so I think this template's title should change to that too. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 14:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
@
Huldra,
Dan Murphy, and
Pigsonthewing: Would it be OK if we brightened the background colour of headers slightly to #B0CF63
(
Arab towns and villages depopulated ; compare with the existing
Arab towns and villages depopulated ) to achieve WCAG AA compliance, which is required by
WP:COLOUR? I'd also be happy to update associated templates to use the new colour.
Alakzi (
talk) 00:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
"may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:22, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
#DCF49F
is AAA-compliant:
Arab towns and villages depopulated .
Alakzi (
talk) 08:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
I see that
Dan Murphy has restored the inaccessible colour scheme, which needs to be removed, ASAP, in order to comply with
WCAG web accessibility guidelines, our own MoS, and the aforesaid WMF discrimination policy. Dan: since you gave no edits summary, perhaps you can explain here why you think act as though it is unimportant that people with limited visual abiities not be able to use this template?
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits 08:30, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm using Snook's color contrast check with the link color #0645AD. Is that right? I think we can find a suitable colour with AAA compliance. Give me a little while to discuss it with some people who care about the hue. In this topic everything is sensitive, even tiny color differences. Zero talk 09:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Zero0000: I hope that was "compliant" and not "complaint"?
User:Alakzi: I am perfectly fine with the change you did, here, or any similar colour. Btw, *no-one*, AFAIK, is using the green colour to navigate; the important issue in this template is the difference between "Blofeld-stubs" and non-Blofeld-stubs; and that is fixed by each individual editor by their stylesheets, see above, under Template_talk:Palestinian_Arab_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Blofeld_stubs.
I have my preferences for that in User:Huldra/monobook.css; anyone else can have their own preferences in their own monobook.css-files. Huldra ( talk) 20:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
@
Zero0000:
Alakzi would be a better person to ask, but I think the consensus above is against changing link colors here. Oops, confused this with another discussion. Given the contentious nature of this topic area, I have no objection to slightly altering link colors. They should remain a shade of blue and significantly different than black to remain identifiable as a link. My recommendation would making the link color the "already clicked" color all the time. ~
Rob
Talk 23:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Since the color of other elements has changed, and some articles have multiple nav boxes on the bottom (this one green, others default - leading to jarring mismatches) - I've removed the custom color from this one. We also have to think about accessibility per MOS:COLOR (and green is an issue in regards to color blindness) and in general we shouldn't be overriding elements per MOS:DEVIATIONS. Icewhiz ( talk) 23:00, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to have been a discussion above that resulted in a consensus for the current scheme, which is fully compliant with all accessibility standards that we have. I agree with that consensus. nableezy - 20:03, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
"In general, styles for tables and other block-level elements should be set using CSS classes, not with inline style attributes". By setting this with a hard-coded value - we are preventing
"it allows users with very specific needs to change the color schemes in their own style sheet ( Special:MyPage/skin.css, or their browser's style sheet). For example, a style sheet at Wikipedia:Style sheets for visually impaired users provides higher contrast backgrounds for navboxes. The problem is that when the default site-wide classes are overridden, it makes it far more difficult for an individual to choose his/her own theme.". Users that require, due to disability, a high-contrast low ambient light setting should be able to do so without local inline style attributes in the way - this is not "their own problem". Icewhiz ( talk) 06:24, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi Huldra (others feel free to answer too !). I'm starting to translate the articles that are included in this template into French and I'm asking myself a few questions about why some places are included in the template and others are not. The template does include Lydda and Ramle but not Safed or al-Majdal ( Ashkelon), is there a reason for that?
Side note : a made a few remarks on Talk:Yazur#Improvements_to_the_article if anyone is interested.-- Kimdime ( talk) 11:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this page:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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Israel Template‑class | ||||||||||||||
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Palestine Template‑class | |||||||
|
This template really shouldn't have an image. Also it shouldn't be called 'Nakba'. The reasons are as follows:
I will also notify WP:IPCOLL of this discussion.
-- Ynhockey ( Talk) 11:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Timeshifer: I'm glad that you moved the images to a less harmful location, but that does not address the concerns I raised above, about the relevancy of the images. What is your position on the issue? -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 12:49, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Moving to left
Timeshifter, "Images are part of encyclopedias" is a WP:ILIKEIT argument. Templates are not part of the prose on Wikipedia and therefore don't need illustrations, and I'm not sure what Wikimedia Commons has to do with this. Please stick to the issue at hand. --
Ynhockey (
Talk) 18:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I did a little survey of infoboxes or navboxes of this type. Images in infoboxes are very rare. A few - for example, Template:National Parks of Norway - have images, but the vast majority have none - see, for example, Template:Slavery, Template:Mountain Meadows massacre series, Template:Sept11, Template:Al-Jihad. These are all examples of boxes that are similar to this template, in that a picture could certainly have been included, yet the authors chose not to include one. Not that I think we can draw any conclusions from this. Personally, I don't think the images are irrelevant - the template is about depopulation and these are pictures of people depopulating - and I think pictures always make something better; on the other hand, the pictures don't make navigating any easier, they just make the box prettier, if that is a word that can be used about information on human suffering.
I do have another issue with this template, however, and one that is much more profound. This infobox needs a source. The box is a sort of navbox, pointing to articles on the individual villages. However, for more than half the villages there is no article. Normally, I would expect to see references in each of the individual articles, which would in turn account for the reliability of the infobox. In this case, though, where many individual articles are missing, I think there needs to be a source given for the information in the box.
Ideally, the source or sources for the list of villages should be in the box itself, but if there is nowhere to put it, I suggest that at least we list the sources on the talk page. This way, if the information in the box is challenged, we will be able to cite something. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 15:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Here is another navigation template with images:
Template:Holy sites in Judaism
It is in many articles, sometimes in the open state. See its "what links here" link. Here is one article with the template: Rachel's Tomb. The template is open there. I think it is open there because there is only one show/hide template on that article page. I don't know for sure. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 03:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent). I have no idea which villages were depopulated during the time period around the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Are there before and after maps with enough detail? This might be correlated with lists from other sites. Some of the villages may no longer be labeled on the maps after the war. What did PalestineRemembered.com use as sources for its info? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 19:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Is it at all possible for us to change the color scheme? Red on yellow is very visually distracting. The Squicks ( talk) 20:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
It is really extremely inconvenient to have this template collapsed for those of us who work on the 1948-villages...both Tiamut and myself (who are the editors who, beside Al Ameer son, who have worked most on them) have "uncollapsed" it. Yes; I *know* it is not a very pretty template at the moment (with all its red links)...but this is a work very much in progress, so please bear over with it. I navigate with the help of this template all the time... Regards, Huldra ( talk) 21:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
This isnt pretty, however you can force the table to display using the following user style:
.navbox_pavdd1948pw * table { display: block !important } .navbox_pavdd1948pw * table tr { display: block !important }
I have only tested it in Firefox. Maybe someone can figure out how to make it a bit less ugly. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I move this to al-Nakba? The phrase gets 2.3 million hits on Google and has passed into the English language. It's much clearer than the current very long title, in my view. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 21:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
A little while ago stubs were created for all of the missing articles in this cluster. The result was that all articles on this template become the same colour, blue, which meant that it was difficult for contributors to see at a glance whether an article had already been developed. One solution is to use the user preference to enable a different colour for small articles, and a similar solution is possible with the PAGESIZE function. (see /sandbox) The current solution (added Aug. 19) is to add a CSS class to each "stub" article, like so:
{{span2|class=Blofeld_stub|[[page name]]}}
This is removed when the page has been expanded. e.g. [1]
To apply a different colour to these stubs, add the following to your stylesheet:
.Blofeld_stub a { text-decoration: none; color: Coral; }
In that example, "Coral" can be replaced with any web colour. -- John Vandenberg ( chat) 05:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment: This navbox looks like it has turned into a list article. IMHO, navboxes should be relatively short, providing links to the major articles related to a topic, with those articles in turn linking to more details. It may be that this topic needs more higher-level articles that this navbox can use.
My general rule of thumb is that a navbox should ideally contain no more than a dozen lines of text and definitely no more than 20. Beyond that point the navbox is more of a distraction than a help.
-- Mcorazao ( talk) 15:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
The very title of this article is loaded with POV implications. "Depopulation" is hardly an accepted fact by historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.134.250 ( talk) 05:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I looked at almost all the names in this template and although i didn't count, i got the perception that there were more hamlets than villages. Should the title be changed to reflect this? 89.242.82.200 ( talk) 16:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
The main color was changed by an IP on the 15th sept here, with the edit-line "(per wp:deviations)".
We have previously discussed this (with Al Ameer son, if I recall), and we generally agreed that green was a good solution, as it matched the color of the info-box.
However, I do not know if it makes if more difficult to read for people with color-blindness, or similar visual impairments?
If the change is only done because "blue is standard", then I oppose it, and suggest we return to the whole-green solution. Regards, Huldra ( talk) 22:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the IP that per WP:Deviations the greenish should be removed. It looks more professional to have one consistent style. Africa boxes in black, China in yellow, American Indians in Red? Androoox ( talk) 08:10, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Why is not Atlit, district of Haifa, included in the template? Morris includes it (see User:Huldra/Morris-list village #387), and Khalidi includes it. If there are no protest, I will include it in the near future. Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 22:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
"War" in the main article's title ( 1948 Palestine war) has lower case letters so I think this template's title should change to that too. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 14:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
@
Huldra,
Dan Murphy, and
Pigsonthewing: Would it be OK if we brightened the background colour of headers slightly to #B0CF63
(
Arab towns and villages depopulated ; compare with the existing
Arab towns and villages depopulated ) to achieve WCAG AA compliance, which is required by
WP:COLOUR? I'd also be happy to update associated templates to use the new colour.
Alakzi (
talk) 00:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
"may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:22, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
#DCF49F
is AAA-compliant:
Arab towns and villages depopulated .
Alakzi (
talk) 08:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
I see that
Dan Murphy has restored the inaccessible colour scheme, which needs to be removed, ASAP, in order to comply with
WCAG web accessibility guidelines, our own MoS, and the aforesaid WMF discrimination policy. Dan: since you gave no edits summary, perhaps you can explain here why you think act as though it is unimportant that people with limited visual abiities not be able to use this template?
Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing);
Talk to Andy;
Andy's edits 08:30, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm using Snook's color contrast check with the link color #0645AD. Is that right? I think we can find a suitable colour with AAA compliance. Give me a little while to discuss it with some people who care about the hue. In this topic everything is sensitive, even tiny color differences. Zero talk 09:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Zero0000: I hope that was "compliant" and not "complaint"?
User:Alakzi: I am perfectly fine with the change you did, here, or any similar colour. Btw, *no-one*, AFAIK, is using the green colour to navigate; the important issue in this template is the difference between "Blofeld-stubs" and non-Blofeld-stubs; and that is fixed by each individual editor by their stylesheets, see above, under Template_talk:Palestinian_Arab_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Blofeld_stubs.
I have my preferences for that in User:Huldra/monobook.css; anyone else can have their own preferences in their own monobook.css-files. Huldra ( talk) 20:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
@
Zero0000:
Alakzi would be a better person to ask, but I think the consensus above is against changing link colors here. Oops, confused this with another discussion. Given the contentious nature of this topic area, I have no objection to slightly altering link colors. They should remain a shade of blue and significantly different than black to remain identifiable as a link. My recommendation would making the link color the "already clicked" color all the time. ~
Rob
Talk 23:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Since the color of other elements has changed, and some articles have multiple nav boxes on the bottom (this one green, others default - leading to jarring mismatches) - I've removed the custom color from this one. We also have to think about accessibility per MOS:COLOR (and green is an issue in regards to color blindness) and in general we shouldn't be overriding elements per MOS:DEVIATIONS. Icewhiz ( talk) 23:00, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
There seems to have been a discussion above that resulted in a consensus for the current scheme, which is fully compliant with all accessibility standards that we have. I agree with that consensus. nableezy - 20:03, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
"In general, styles for tables and other block-level elements should be set using CSS classes, not with inline style attributes". By setting this with a hard-coded value - we are preventing
"it allows users with very specific needs to change the color schemes in their own style sheet ( Special:MyPage/skin.css, or their browser's style sheet). For example, a style sheet at Wikipedia:Style sheets for visually impaired users provides higher contrast backgrounds for navboxes. The problem is that when the default site-wide classes are overridden, it makes it far more difficult for an individual to choose his/her own theme.". Users that require, due to disability, a high-contrast low ambient light setting should be able to do so without local inline style attributes in the way - this is not "their own problem". Icewhiz ( talk) 06:24, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi Huldra (others feel free to answer too !). I'm starting to translate the articles that are included in this template into French and I'm asking myself a few questions about why some places are included in the template and others are not. The template does include Lydda and Ramle but not Safed or al-Majdal ( Ashkelon), is there a reason for that?
Side note : a made a few remarks on Talk:Yazur#Improvements_to_the_article if anyone is interested.-- Kimdime ( talk) 11:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)