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Since when all Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia are ethnic Macedonians? There are two links in the template (one mentioning Greece and the other Aegean Macedonians) which both link to the above article. Please remove this irredentist connotation.-- Avg ( talk) 21:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Aegean Macedonians, etc are in both regions and subgroups because it was a condition to allow Aegean Macedonians to merge with Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia. In the same forms, Pirin Macedonians have their own regional identity (hence in subgroups) but may not be the only Macedonians in Bulgaria (hence Macedonians in Bulgaria). This is applied to Prespan Macedonians and Macedonians in Albania also.
Gorani express their language as being Macedonian in polls and censuses, hence Macedonian language = Macedonian identity. While I agree many Gorani may not express their language as Macedonian, some do. Mactruth ( talk) 19:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
As for Torbeši, not single of them identifay as so, it is nick used by some Macedonians, i have many pals like them and all of them say nothing more then Macedonians.
Gorani will express them self in national census when it comes, there should be also noted Unmik report of ethnicetys in Kosovo, which shows large number of peoples who express like Macedonians, mostly in Gora region. Have to be noticed that in Goras part of Albania Macedonians did express them self like Macedonians with islamic religion. Makedonij ( talk) 16:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Leveol, you speak of irredentist nationalism by myself, yet look what your fellow Bulgarians are posting in multiple pages, and I might add that I see no complaints from yourself:
Don't get me wrong, I understand your goals are purely to make us look Bulgarian to the world. Hence, the consistent racism towards our people, and you believe you have a right to do so. I wouldn't be angry if there were sources, but the fact of the matter was Balkans was confusing to the Western countries. Also, Western countries were motivated by the case that would benefit their empire, hence the consistent irregularities about the Balkans in the 1800s. But the worst part of it is, you only show sources which support your side, but ignore I sources I consistently present here on Wikipedia. Your excuses range from "nationalistic website" even though the books would be sourced on the website, to other excuses like "we know what you're trying to do. You and the Greeks here on Wikipedia are the same. The funny thing is we are treated like the bad guys, when we are the ones who suffered, it surely is Europe's tragedy.
Anyways, getting back to your fruitless claims of "since I didn't respond in 24 hours, you can revert it." Since when is time a factor? Sorry but I have a life here, I'm not on Wikipedia 24 hours a day bathed in my obsession of trying to suppress a different ethnicity like yourself.
The article Gorani contains sources and states "many Gorani state their language is Macedonian", and Gorani are located in Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo. Let me explain this again, when Aegean Macedonians was incorporated into Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia, it was agreed it would be in both subgroups and regions, comprehend? The same is used for the other subgroups, since the subgroup doesn't necessary represent all the Macedonians of that country. Mactruth ( talk) 14:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Are Macedonians from Eastern, southern and other regions from Macedonia sub group of Macedonians? Title sub group should be replaced with related people or something like that.... Makedonij ( talk) 11:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
PMK1, can't the same argument be said for the other Macedonians? You state Aegean Macedonians have their own dialects, geo-political situations, and history after the division of Macedonia... can't you state the same thing about Pirin Macedonians, or Prespan Macedonians? They too have lived outside of Republic of Macedonia since the division of Macedonia, and even today have their own political parties and use different flags to represent themselves. It is well known that Macedonian dialects are complex and very simply between villages, the same is true for customs and etc. But its not like Pirin Macedonians and Prespan Macedonians, along with Aegean Macedonians, are being taught standard Macedonian in Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece. In fact, the situation of the Pirins mirror that of the Aegeans, in which both subgroups were denied recognition from their respected state. In fact, they continue to fight for human rights recognition.
Leveol, those examples are a side note from the argument at hand. YOU stated I am nationalistic, then why don't you ever challenge your own peoples' edits. You are completely happy with Bulgarian dialects showing the Macedonian language is a Bulgarian dialect, and with Macedonians (Bulgarians) stating we were "invented" from communism in the 1940s, even though a wealth of evidence contradicts your statements. Like I stated several times, the Balkans was a confusing place for the Western World, and was politically written to support one empire or another. The problem is the sources used in the two examples, along with many others throughout WP, are POV used, in which only your "Macedonians are Bulgarian" thesis will be maintained while excluding evidence which suggests differently. You know its true, and your only argument is to ignore it, or push it aside. Look at Bulgarian dialects for example, the sources used to show all Macedonian dialects are Bulgarian dialects is "Bulgarian Dialectology". A single source is used, which is incorrectly sourced, but purposely presented to look like 14 different sources. Let's look at Macedonians (Bulgarians):
Leveol, you are lucky I am a busy man in my life at the moment. In a couple of months though I will make your life hell, I will upload source after source and show just how POV these sources are. You have no idea. Mactruth ( talk) 16:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm strongly against the title of sub group. PMK are you Egeec? What about Pirin Macedonians and Prespanci, are they sub group to, then? And why they are not on the tempalete? Makedonij ( talk) 21:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with last edition of FPS. Makedonij ( talk) 22:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
PMK1, please try to comprehend what I am trying to state my brother. It was agreed Aegean Macedonians would be in both locations on the template before the merger occurred, but why on Earth would we discriminate between subgroups? I'd rather have the article in the subgroup section if we had to choose. Also, about the Bulgarian Macedonians and Bulgarian dialects pages, why is there no argument from you if you also see this occurring? Mactruth ( talk) 04:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I've tweaked the display title of the infobox, removing the "(ethnic group)" addition. It's ugly – these bracketed disambig qualifiers are really only technical additions for page titles and should never be displayed inside an article page itself. Also, there's no need for disambiguation within the infobox. Everywhere the box appears, the context of the article of which it is part already makes it clear which "Macedonians" are meant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday, I changed the symbol at the top of the template with the national flag of the Republic of Macedonia. User:Mactruth has now restored the lion banner with the reasoning "the symbol was chosen a long time ago". I can see further up this page that the topic has been discussed extensively and that there is indeed considerable evidence that the lion banner is used. I do, however, think that the national flag is more appropriate for this setting. The lion seems to be primarily used by ethnic Macedonians of an ultranationalist persuasion, and it also appears on the logo of the VMRO–DPMNE party. I think that, if a symbol absolutely must be used, it would be better to use the national flag, which is more representative. I suppose we all agree that it is used more often than the lion banner in any case.-- Ptolion ( talk) 11:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
It has been a month since I was reverted and Mactruth still hasn't joined the discussion. I'll restore the flag per WP:SILENCE and see if it holds.-- Ptolion ( talk) 09:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
That lion flag is not an ultranationatlist symbol. That's real nonsense. The flag of the R. of Macedonia is not appropriate for this template, because it is a multiethnical symbol, that means it represents the country and the people living in Macedonia, not just the ethnic Macedonians. The ethnic Macedonians primarily use the red Vergina Sun flag and seconde the lion flag. Plus, this version of the lion is not the VMRO party lion. Habel ( talk) 09:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
If the flag of ROM is indeed an multiethnic symbol, then why is it used to represent the Macedonian language on government websites and pretty much everywhere else? The ROM's leadership have made perfectly clear that they consider their country the nation-state of the Macedonians (ethnic group) and all other ethnic groups in the country are ethnic minorities - in other words they are the same as all other Balkan nation-states (Greece, Bulgaria...). However, even if we were to accept that the ROM's flag is unsuitable for the template, the suitability of the lion banner has still not been demonstrated. The lion has no official status and is still relatively poorly attested. If you don't want the flag of the ROM, I propose that no symbol be used.-- Ptolion ( talk) 12:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This is a template, dealing with topics on an ethnic group. It should not be a copy-paste version of the template on the country. I've removed the history section and added the link to the article to Other topics. That's how all other templates deal with it. -- Laveol T 21:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Ethnic groups NA‑class | ||||||||||||
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North Macedonia Template‑class | |||||||
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Since when all Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia are ethnic Macedonians? There are two links in the template (one mentioning Greece and the other Aegean Macedonians) which both link to the above article. Please remove this irredentist connotation.-- Avg ( talk) 21:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Aegean Macedonians, etc are in both regions and subgroups because it was a condition to allow Aegean Macedonians to merge with Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia. In the same forms, Pirin Macedonians have their own regional identity (hence in subgroups) but may not be the only Macedonians in Bulgaria (hence Macedonians in Bulgaria). This is applied to Prespan Macedonians and Macedonians in Albania also.
Gorani express their language as being Macedonian in polls and censuses, hence Macedonian language = Macedonian identity. While I agree many Gorani may not express their language as Macedonian, some do. Mactruth ( talk) 19:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
As for Torbeši, not single of them identifay as so, it is nick used by some Macedonians, i have many pals like them and all of them say nothing more then Macedonians.
Gorani will express them self in national census when it comes, there should be also noted Unmik report of ethnicetys in Kosovo, which shows large number of peoples who express like Macedonians, mostly in Gora region. Have to be noticed that in Goras part of Albania Macedonians did express them self like Macedonians with islamic religion. Makedonij ( talk) 16:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Leveol, you speak of irredentist nationalism by myself, yet look what your fellow Bulgarians are posting in multiple pages, and I might add that I see no complaints from yourself:
Don't get me wrong, I understand your goals are purely to make us look Bulgarian to the world. Hence, the consistent racism towards our people, and you believe you have a right to do so. I wouldn't be angry if there were sources, but the fact of the matter was Balkans was confusing to the Western countries. Also, Western countries were motivated by the case that would benefit their empire, hence the consistent irregularities about the Balkans in the 1800s. But the worst part of it is, you only show sources which support your side, but ignore I sources I consistently present here on Wikipedia. Your excuses range from "nationalistic website" even though the books would be sourced on the website, to other excuses like "we know what you're trying to do. You and the Greeks here on Wikipedia are the same. The funny thing is we are treated like the bad guys, when we are the ones who suffered, it surely is Europe's tragedy.
Anyways, getting back to your fruitless claims of "since I didn't respond in 24 hours, you can revert it." Since when is time a factor? Sorry but I have a life here, I'm not on Wikipedia 24 hours a day bathed in my obsession of trying to suppress a different ethnicity like yourself.
The article Gorani contains sources and states "many Gorani state their language is Macedonian", and Gorani are located in Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo. Let me explain this again, when Aegean Macedonians was incorporated into Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia, it was agreed it would be in both subgroups and regions, comprehend? The same is used for the other subgroups, since the subgroup doesn't necessary represent all the Macedonians of that country. Mactruth ( talk) 14:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Are Macedonians from Eastern, southern and other regions from Macedonia sub group of Macedonians? Title sub group should be replaced with related people or something like that.... Makedonij ( talk) 11:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
PMK1, can't the same argument be said for the other Macedonians? You state Aegean Macedonians have their own dialects, geo-political situations, and history after the division of Macedonia... can't you state the same thing about Pirin Macedonians, or Prespan Macedonians? They too have lived outside of Republic of Macedonia since the division of Macedonia, and even today have their own political parties and use different flags to represent themselves. It is well known that Macedonian dialects are complex and very simply between villages, the same is true for customs and etc. But its not like Pirin Macedonians and Prespan Macedonians, along with Aegean Macedonians, are being taught standard Macedonian in Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece. In fact, the situation of the Pirins mirror that of the Aegeans, in which both subgroups were denied recognition from their respected state. In fact, they continue to fight for human rights recognition.
Leveol, those examples are a side note from the argument at hand. YOU stated I am nationalistic, then why don't you ever challenge your own peoples' edits. You are completely happy with Bulgarian dialects showing the Macedonian language is a Bulgarian dialect, and with Macedonians (Bulgarians) stating we were "invented" from communism in the 1940s, even though a wealth of evidence contradicts your statements. Like I stated several times, the Balkans was a confusing place for the Western World, and was politically written to support one empire or another. The problem is the sources used in the two examples, along with many others throughout WP, are POV used, in which only your "Macedonians are Bulgarian" thesis will be maintained while excluding evidence which suggests differently. You know its true, and your only argument is to ignore it, or push it aside. Look at Bulgarian dialects for example, the sources used to show all Macedonian dialects are Bulgarian dialects is "Bulgarian Dialectology". A single source is used, which is incorrectly sourced, but purposely presented to look like 14 different sources. Let's look at Macedonians (Bulgarians):
Leveol, you are lucky I am a busy man in my life at the moment. In a couple of months though I will make your life hell, I will upload source after source and show just how POV these sources are. You have no idea. Mactruth ( talk) 16:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm strongly against the title of sub group. PMK are you Egeec? What about Pirin Macedonians and Prespanci, are they sub group to, then? And why they are not on the tempalete? Makedonij ( talk) 21:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with last edition of FPS. Makedonij ( talk) 22:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
PMK1, please try to comprehend what I am trying to state my brother. It was agreed Aegean Macedonians would be in both locations on the template before the merger occurred, but why on Earth would we discriminate between subgroups? I'd rather have the article in the subgroup section if we had to choose. Also, about the Bulgarian Macedonians and Bulgarian dialects pages, why is there no argument from you if you also see this occurring? Mactruth ( talk) 04:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I've tweaked the display title of the infobox, removing the "(ethnic group)" addition. It's ugly – these bracketed disambig qualifiers are really only technical additions for page titles and should never be displayed inside an article page itself. Also, there's no need for disambiguation within the infobox. Everywhere the box appears, the context of the article of which it is part already makes it clear which "Macedonians" are meant. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday, I changed the symbol at the top of the template with the national flag of the Republic of Macedonia. User:Mactruth has now restored the lion banner with the reasoning "the symbol was chosen a long time ago". I can see further up this page that the topic has been discussed extensively and that there is indeed considerable evidence that the lion banner is used. I do, however, think that the national flag is more appropriate for this setting. The lion seems to be primarily used by ethnic Macedonians of an ultranationalist persuasion, and it also appears on the logo of the VMRO–DPMNE party. I think that, if a symbol absolutely must be used, it would be better to use the national flag, which is more representative. I suppose we all agree that it is used more often than the lion banner in any case.-- Ptolion ( talk) 11:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
It has been a month since I was reverted and Mactruth still hasn't joined the discussion. I'll restore the flag per WP:SILENCE and see if it holds.-- Ptolion ( talk) 09:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
That lion flag is not an ultranationatlist symbol. That's real nonsense. The flag of the R. of Macedonia is not appropriate for this template, because it is a multiethnical symbol, that means it represents the country and the people living in Macedonia, not just the ethnic Macedonians. The ethnic Macedonians primarily use the red Vergina Sun flag and seconde the lion flag. Plus, this version of the lion is not the VMRO party lion. Habel ( talk) 09:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
If the flag of ROM is indeed an multiethnic symbol, then why is it used to represent the Macedonian language on government websites and pretty much everywhere else? The ROM's leadership have made perfectly clear that they consider their country the nation-state of the Macedonians (ethnic group) and all other ethnic groups in the country are ethnic minorities - in other words they are the same as all other Balkan nation-states (Greece, Bulgaria...). However, even if we were to accept that the ROM's flag is unsuitable for the template, the suitability of the lion banner has still not been demonstrated. The lion has no official status and is still relatively poorly attested. If you don't want the flag of the ROM, I propose that no symbol be used.-- Ptolion ( talk) 12:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
This is a template, dealing with topics on an ethnic group. It should not be a copy-paste version of the template on the country. I've removed the history section and added the link to the article to Other topics. That's how all other templates deal with it. -- Laveol T 21:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)