Politics: Libertarianism Template‑class | ||||||||||
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I can't think of a good argument opposing the inclusion of 'individualist anarchism' - occurred recently. Nevertheless, it got me thinking - what is our policy for inclusion/exclusion? I don't want the list to explode, and there are certainly many more schools which would 'fit', but not necessarily be a good idea to include.
Are there any suggestions? I have none at the present time.
I added 'social anarchism' for consistency. Byelf2007 ( talk) 8 November 2012
Before even touching Ron Paul and some of the newer additions to the 'people' section, is there a source somewhere on Calvin Coolidge, career politician, US vp, US president -- self-identifying as a libertarian? Did some of his contemporaries call him a libertarian or consider him part of the libertarian movement? If so, had any of them addressed the paradoxical nature of being an anti-state head of state? How about an anti-capitalist laissez faire capitalist -- considering the idea of calling 'free market capitalism' libertarian was about a century apart from his year of birth? Finx ( talk) 16:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I reverted this change. I don't understand removing the color bars as "unnecessary style overrides". Please explain. CarolMooreDC 00:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The capacity to override something does not imply the obligation to override it. There should always be a well-rationalised argument for doing so. Looking at the examples you've provided, while they all override the default styling in one way or another, it's instructive to note that they've converged on the default styling over time. That's a process which will inevitably continue. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 15:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I've put up a suggested compromise at Template:Libertarianism sidebar/sandbox. This uses a bolder yellow which is easier to distinguish from the background and uses the more compact format (see the test cases page for a side-by-side comparison; when fully expanded, the new version is nearly 50% shorter). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 10:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Let's build more of a consensus before we start screwing with sidebar stylizations. Until somebody comes up with something better, just leave the color scheme the way it is instead of dispensing with it altogether. -- Adam9389 ( talk) 16:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
links should clearly be identifiable as links to readers.
Refrain from implementing colored links that may impede user ability to distinguish links from regular text, or color links for purely aesthetic reasons. See the guides to editing articles for accessibility at contrast and navbox colors.
Direct quote from Ayn Rand:
I would disagree on three levels, I oversimplify/overstate just to make the point:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 11:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I don't know much about her, just throwing it out there. Finx ( talk) 13:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Disagree. We can argue in circles forever on the semantics, but the fact is Ayn Rand has had an indisputable influence on the libertarian movement, including being one of the primary fountainheads (no pun intended) of the free-market, individualist faction of libertarianism. Countless sources (both Objectivist and not) refer to her and her political philosophy as libertarian. She herself may have disavowed the term, but then again, half the people on our list of influentials either predated or simply did not use the word "libertarian." -- Adam9389 ( talk) 16:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Stephan Kinsella seems a bit obscure to be included in a list of Libertarian people. Is there any evidence that he matters at all to the Libertarian school of thought? I am removing him per wp:BRD. Bonewah ( talk) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
As it stood before my edition this sidebar was mostly biased towards right wing libertarianism or as we outside of the US call it, towards economic liberalism or neoliberalism. The libertarianism sidebar has to go in agreement with the main wikipedia libertarianism article and not with the particular taste of a single user who onbly comes to edit here. That or else the users who want to keep out of this template things like libertarian socialism and libertarian marxism are free to propose instead a "right libertarianism" sidebar or a "Libertarianism according to the US libertarian Party" sidebar.-- Eduen ( talk) 06:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
2607:FEA8:A6A0:1345:416:DA84:DC26:B0F2 ( talk) 05:08, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Given father Ron Paul is on the list, I believe adding Rand would be good. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 06:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I see not reason for the removal of the file:Torch.svg from the sidebar as it is a common symbol of identification for Libertarianism. The majority of political sidebars have an identifying graphic. Strangely enough, if I remember correctly, the image was added to the "Liberalism" page at the same time as it was removed from the Libertarianism sidebar. If the inclusion of this logo in the Libertarianism sidebar is contested, please discuss here. -- St.HocusPocus ( talk) 02:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The term "Libertarianism" has a very specific meaning in the United States and, to some extent, Canada, which is sharply distinct from how the term is understood in Europe and much of the rest of the world. In the United States (and Canada), it's almost universally associated with concepts like free market economics, free trade, anarcho-capitalism, etc. By contrast, in the rest of the world, especially Europe, "Libertarianism" is closely associated with far-left anti-statist ideologies, communal anarchism, anti-Stalinist socialism, etc. Therefore, I have made a separate sidebar to distinguish the term as it's understood in the US. It really makes no sense to have Ron Paul, Ayn Rand, Friedrich Hayek, and David Friedman in the same category as Communist and Far-Left Anarchist thinkers like Emma Goldman, Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, etc, and is extremely confusing for people who don't understand the nuances of the term's distinct usages (exactly the type of person who would be consulting an encyclopedia in the first place). In addition to being confusing and misleading, I am also told that it's frustrating and irritating for proponents of one brand to be associated with the other. I argue for qualifying the American sidebar with the phrase "In the United States" and leaving the rest of world sidebar as simply "Libertarianism" for four reasons: 1) the rest of world understanding of the term Libertarianism was already in widespread usage centuries before the American (and Canadian) understanding of the term; 2) to maintain Wikipedia's neutrality, given that the rest of world understanding of the term is much more widespread and global than the American understanding of the term; 3) there is already a specific article on Libertarianism in the United States distinguishing it from the rest of world understanding of Libertarianism; and 4) the only other articles on country-specific "Libertarianism" (Libertarianism in the United Kingdom and Libertarianism in South Africa) both refer to the exportation of American Libertarianism within the past 30 years. Does this seem reasonable? Erhik ( talk) 14:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
"American Libertarians" only connotes what you imply (primary free market focus) in very recent history. If you're looking to split based on discrete concept, the term isn't "American Libertarianism" but some variant on free market ideology. czar 15:15, 3 February 2018 (UTC)Classical Libertarians and modern American Libertarians have virtually nothing in common
In this edit that I've since reverted User:PhilLiberty wrote "Right libertarianism is a pejorative term used by opponents" as a reason why the link should be to the redirect "Libertarian capitalism" instead. I'd like to see a source that that is pejorative. And regardless, the article that link goes to is titled "Right libertarianism" (modulo PhilLiberty's ongoing edit war at Libertarian capitalism / Right-libertarianism), so that should be the title of the link. PhilLiberty, please respect WP:BRD; I'd suggest the discussion should be over at Talk:Right-libertarianism, and once that is settled then changes can be made here if necessary. -- Pfhorrest ( talk) 20:03, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
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Looking at the template's "People" tab, there are around 27 out of 41 names (slightly more than 2.5/4 names) who are explicitly Left-libertarians/socialists/anarcho-communist. Without knowing or reading about the individuals who are concerned, one can clearly see their political affiliation or ideology just by looking after a Template for anarcho-communism or Left-libertarianism. Prominent Libertarians such as
Milton Friedman,
Ludwig von Mises,
Ayn Rand
John Hospers,
Henry Hazlitt, followers of the
Austrian or
Chicago school of economics are not mentioned despite being very influential in the field of economics. This is not to mention other anarcho-capitalists that could be mentioned but shouldn't, just as the anarcho-communists and communists also probably shouldn't be mentioned in the "People" tab (such as Nestor Makhno). Since this is about libertarianism not anarchism. I'm going to be adding the names I mentioned above. --
Los Perros pueden Cocinar (
talk) 21:26, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
There is a strong risk of non-neutral POV in the recent change. So no offense @ Wow, a discussion is necessary.
The historical color of socialist libertarians is the red and black flag, certainly not the golden yellow representing capitalism. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 22:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Politics: Libertarianism Template‑class | ||||||||||
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I can't think of a good argument opposing the inclusion of 'individualist anarchism' - occurred recently. Nevertheless, it got me thinking - what is our policy for inclusion/exclusion? I don't want the list to explode, and there are certainly many more schools which would 'fit', but not necessarily be a good idea to include.
Are there any suggestions? I have none at the present time.
I added 'social anarchism' for consistency. Byelf2007 ( talk) 8 November 2012
Before even touching Ron Paul and some of the newer additions to the 'people' section, is there a source somewhere on Calvin Coolidge, career politician, US vp, US president -- self-identifying as a libertarian? Did some of his contemporaries call him a libertarian or consider him part of the libertarian movement? If so, had any of them addressed the paradoxical nature of being an anti-state head of state? How about an anti-capitalist laissez faire capitalist -- considering the idea of calling 'free market capitalism' libertarian was about a century apart from his year of birth? Finx ( talk) 16:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
I reverted this change. I don't understand removing the color bars as "unnecessary style overrides". Please explain. CarolMooreDC 00:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
The capacity to override something does not imply the obligation to override it. There should always be a well-rationalised argument for doing so. Looking at the examples you've provided, while they all override the default styling in one way or another, it's instructive to note that they've converged on the default styling over time. That's a process which will inevitably continue. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 15:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I've put up a suggested compromise at Template:Libertarianism sidebar/sandbox. This uses a bolder yellow which is easier to distinguish from the background and uses the more compact format (see the test cases page for a side-by-side comparison; when fully expanded, the new version is nearly 50% shorter). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) ( talk) 10:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Let's build more of a consensus before we start screwing with sidebar stylizations. Until somebody comes up with something better, just leave the color scheme the way it is instead of dispensing with it altogether. -- Adam9389 ( talk) 16:50, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
links should clearly be identifiable as links to readers.
Refrain from implementing colored links that may impede user ability to distinguish links from regular text, or color links for purely aesthetic reasons. See the guides to editing articles for accessibility at contrast and navbox colors.
Direct quote from Ayn Rand:
I would disagree on three levels, I oversimplify/overstate just to make the point:
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 11:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I don't know much about her, just throwing it out there. Finx ( talk) 13:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Disagree. We can argue in circles forever on the semantics, but the fact is Ayn Rand has had an indisputable influence on the libertarian movement, including being one of the primary fountainheads (no pun intended) of the free-market, individualist faction of libertarianism. Countless sources (both Objectivist and not) refer to her and her political philosophy as libertarian. She herself may have disavowed the term, but then again, half the people on our list of influentials either predated or simply did not use the word "libertarian." -- Adam9389 ( talk) 16:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Stephan Kinsella seems a bit obscure to be included in a list of Libertarian people. Is there any evidence that he matters at all to the Libertarian school of thought? I am removing him per wp:BRD. Bonewah ( talk) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
As it stood before my edition this sidebar was mostly biased towards right wing libertarianism or as we outside of the US call it, towards economic liberalism or neoliberalism. The libertarianism sidebar has to go in agreement with the main wikipedia libertarianism article and not with the particular taste of a single user who onbly comes to edit here. That or else the users who want to keep out of this template things like libertarian socialism and libertarian marxism are free to propose instead a "right libertarianism" sidebar or a "Libertarianism according to the US libertarian Party" sidebar.-- Eduen ( talk) 06:32, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
2607:FEA8:A6A0:1345:416:DA84:DC26:B0F2 ( talk) 05:08, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Given father Ron Paul is on the list, I believe adding Rand would be good. Bettering the Wiki ( talk) 06:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I see not reason for the removal of the file:Torch.svg from the sidebar as it is a common symbol of identification for Libertarianism. The majority of political sidebars have an identifying graphic. Strangely enough, if I remember correctly, the image was added to the "Liberalism" page at the same time as it was removed from the Libertarianism sidebar. If the inclusion of this logo in the Libertarianism sidebar is contested, please discuss here. -- St.HocusPocus ( talk) 02:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The term "Libertarianism" has a very specific meaning in the United States and, to some extent, Canada, which is sharply distinct from how the term is understood in Europe and much of the rest of the world. In the United States (and Canada), it's almost universally associated with concepts like free market economics, free trade, anarcho-capitalism, etc. By contrast, in the rest of the world, especially Europe, "Libertarianism" is closely associated with far-left anti-statist ideologies, communal anarchism, anti-Stalinist socialism, etc. Therefore, I have made a separate sidebar to distinguish the term as it's understood in the US. It really makes no sense to have Ron Paul, Ayn Rand, Friedrich Hayek, and David Friedman in the same category as Communist and Far-Left Anarchist thinkers like Emma Goldman, Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, etc, and is extremely confusing for people who don't understand the nuances of the term's distinct usages (exactly the type of person who would be consulting an encyclopedia in the first place). In addition to being confusing and misleading, I am also told that it's frustrating and irritating for proponents of one brand to be associated with the other. I argue for qualifying the American sidebar with the phrase "In the United States" and leaving the rest of world sidebar as simply "Libertarianism" for four reasons: 1) the rest of world understanding of the term Libertarianism was already in widespread usage centuries before the American (and Canadian) understanding of the term; 2) to maintain Wikipedia's neutrality, given that the rest of world understanding of the term is much more widespread and global than the American understanding of the term; 3) there is already a specific article on Libertarianism in the United States distinguishing it from the rest of world understanding of Libertarianism; and 4) the only other articles on country-specific "Libertarianism" (Libertarianism in the United Kingdom and Libertarianism in South Africa) both refer to the exportation of American Libertarianism within the past 30 years. Does this seem reasonable? Erhik ( talk) 14:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
"American Libertarians" only connotes what you imply (primary free market focus) in very recent history. If you're looking to split based on discrete concept, the term isn't "American Libertarianism" but some variant on free market ideology. czar 15:15, 3 February 2018 (UTC)Classical Libertarians and modern American Libertarians have virtually nothing in common
In this edit that I've since reverted User:PhilLiberty wrote "Right libertarianism is a pejorative term used by opponents" as a reason why the link should be to the redirect "Libertarian capitalism" instead. I'd like to see a source that that is pejorative. And regardless, the article that link goes to is titled "Right libertarianism" (modulo PhilLiberty's ongoing edit war at Libertarian capitalism / Right-libertarianism), so that should be the title of the link. PhilLiberty, please respect WP:BRD; I'd suggest the discussion should be over at Talk:Right-libertarianism, and once that is settled then changes can be made here if necessary. -- Pfhorrest ( talk) 20:03, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
_
-
Looking at the template's "People" tab, there are around 27 out of 41 names (slightly more than 2.5/4 names) who are explicitly Left-libertarians/socialists/anarcho-communist. Without knowing or reading about the individuals who are concerned, one can clearly see their political affiliation or ideology just by looking after a Template for anarcho-communism or Left-libertarianism. Prominent Libertarians such as
Milton Friedman,
Ludwig von Mises,
Ayn Rand
John Hospers,
Henry Hazlitt, followers of the
Austrian or
Chicago school of economics are not mentioned despite being very influential in the field of economics. This is not to mention other anarcho-capitalists that could be mentioned but shouldn't, just as the anarcho-communists and communists also probably shouldn't be mentioned in the "People" tab (such as Nestor Makhno). Since this is about libertarianism not anarchism. I'm going to be adding the names I mentioned above. --
Los Perros pueden Cocinar (
talk) 21:26, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
There is a strong risk of non-neutral POV in the recent change. So no offense @ Wow, a discussion is necessary.
The historical color of socialist libertarians is the red and black flag, certainly not the golden yellow representing capitalism. 93.45.229.98 ( talk) 22:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)