This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
Given that neither Hebrew nor Aramaic is Indo-European, the present breakdown of categories seems a bit odd. -- Jmabel | Talk
Should Yeshivish and/or Yinglish be added to the template? If so, should they go under the Yiddish section? Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The time may soon come to split off Jewish Indo-Iranian languages to a separate section, and possibly Jewish Romance languages as well...especially after I finish the articles I promised to have done in half an hour (and won't be done with...) Any objections? Tomer TALK 08:10, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like a lot of effort has been made to improve these articles on Jewish languages, but I don't know if this template really helps. In some articles it actually displaces the language infobox, and it is very big. Is there any way of making it more discrete or maybe solve it with ordinary link lists? Peter Isotalo 21:40, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
I'm cool with making it horizontal and putting it at the bottom. I was the one who made an effort to put all the mentioned Jewish languages in one box, so I'll take responsibility for the clutter and am agreeable to the proposed solution. I'll give it a couple of days and then I'll do it, though I'm hardly an expert on template design. -- Leifern 17:42, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I dunno, Peter...I'll solicit comment from people who have shown an interest in such templates in the past, except Leifern, who seems to be monitoring this closely already. :-p Tomer TALK 17:46, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Per the above discussion, I've redesigned the template. Until we have consensus to replace the old one with this one, please make changes at {{
Jewish language/redesign}}. This is what it looks like:
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim | ||
Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam | ||
Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Tom e r talk 17:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
I think that we need to come up with a design that minimized whitespace as much as possible. The former had that advantage, but I see the advantages of having a horizontal version at the bottom.
A larger issue, I think is the extent to which this template a) gives an overview of the field of Jewish language by way of an implied taxonomy; and b) provides a navigational device for those who want to immerse themselves in the topic. For example, the article on Yinglish is interesting, but is a very different phenomenon from Yevanic, to take a random example. So I guess my question is, what is the right way to structure this knowledge? -- Leifern 18:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras):
Biblical |
Mishnaic |
Medieval |
Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
For some reason,
Bijil Neo-Aramaic is now a redirect to
Barzani Jewish Neo-Aramaic, so I've changed that in the template, which makes the Aramaic line a bit shorter, thus:
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras):
Biblical |
Mishnaic |
Medieval |
Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Tom e r talk 19:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages ( ) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Hebrew | (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern | ||
(vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | |||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | |||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | |||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | YIVO | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | |||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | |||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | |||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | |||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Jewish languages ( ) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Afro-Asiatic | |||
Hebrew | (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern | ||
(vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | |||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | |||
Other: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | |||
Indo-European | |||
Yiddish ( Judæo-German): Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | YIVO | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | |||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | |||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | |||
Other: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | |||
Altaic | Dravidian | Kartvelian | |
Krymchak | Karaim | Judeo-Malayalam | Gruzinic |
OK...more modifications...first I reduced the family names, and that ended up looking like
this...then I added in the "missing" articles, and got this rather putrid result. Any comments?
Category:Jewish languages Tom e r talk 06:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
If y'all are sufficiently happy with the template that it's good enough to appear in articles, say so and I'll be happy to do the grunt work. (In other words, I think any remaining issues with the new template are minor enough that they can be hashed out without adversely [or significantly] affecting the usability or appearance of the template as it shows up in the affected articles.) Cheers, Tom e r talk 16:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What are the "Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr.", "YIVO", and "Yiddish Theater" doing in a list of languages? -- futhark 16:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I reverted an anon's alteration of [[Italkian language|Italkit]] to [[Italkian language|Judeo-Italian varieties]] for 2 reasons:
Tom e r talk 10:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
TShilo reverted my change of "dialects" to "vocalizations" with the claim that there are even differences in vocabulary.
This is simply not so. The historical differences between Ashkenazi, Sepharadi, Yemenite, etc. are for a language that was used for liturgy and Torah study, not a spoken language in day-to-day life. The texts were written similarly in all locations and could be sent, say, from Syria to France and read, but they would be read with different pronunciations in each place. All groups shared a common written corpus but pronounced it differently.
The way "dialect" is normally understood is not appropriate to the historical reality being described in this chart. Dovi 08:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Should Amharic and Tigrinya be included here since they were (and still are) spoken by the Beta Israel and related Jewish groups in Ethiopia? What about Ge'ez as a liturgical language? ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 18:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I have rolled back User:Danielbart's inexplicable removal of Judeo-Kurdish. I'm curious to learn how the removal can possibly be defended, so if any one can, lay it on me... Tom e r talk 06:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
To add, somewhere... I'm uncertain...but I think this doesn't properly belong under "Yiddish" http://judaisme.sdv.fr//dialecte/ Comments? Tom e r talk 23:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Any interest in breaking Yiddish off to its own template? Presumably, such a template would include:
Gedächte? Tom e r talk 00:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Jewish-English helps: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] I'm not sure if the Encino/Hebonics thing is actually just a joke... Tom e r talk 01:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||
|
Given that neither Hebrew nor Aramaic is Indo-European, the present breakdown of categories seems a bit odd. -- Jmabel | Talk
Should Yeshivish and/or Yinglish be added to the template? If so, should they go under the Yiddish section? Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The time may soon come to split off Jewish Indo-Iranian languages to a separate section, and possibly Jewish Romance languages as well...especially after I finish the articles I promised to have done in half an hour (and won't be done with...) Any objections? Tomer TALK 08:10, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
It looks like a lot of effort has been made to improve these articles on Jewish languages, but I don't know if this template really helps. In some articles it actually displaces the language infobox, and it is very big. Is there any way of making it more discrete or maybe solve it with ordinary link lists? Peter Isotalo 21:40, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
I'm cool with making it horizontal and putting it at the bottom. I was the one who made an effort to put all the mentioned Jewish languages in one box, so I'll take responsibility for the clutter and am agreeable to the proposed solution. I'll give it a couple of days and then I'll do it, though I'm hardly an expert on template design. -- Leifern 17:42, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
I dunno, Peter...I'll solicit comment from people who have shown an interest in such templates in the past, except Leifern, who seems to be monitoring this closely already. :-p Tomer TALK 17:46, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Per the above discussion, I've redesigned the template. Until we have consensus to replace the old one with this one, please make changes at {{
Jewish language/redesign}}. This is what it looks like:
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim | ||
Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam | ||
Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Tom e r talk 17:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
I think that we need to come up with a design that minimized whitespace as much as possible. The former had that advantage, but I see the advantages of having a horizontal version at the bottom.
A larger issue, I think is the extent to which this template a) gives an overview of the field of Jewish language by way of an implied taxonomy; and b) provides a navigational device for those who want to immerse themselves in the topic. For example, the article on Yinglish is interesting, but is a very different phenomenon from Yevanic, to take a random example. So I guess my question is, what is the right way to structure this knowledge? -- Leifern 18:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras):
Biblical |
Mishnaic |
Medieval |
Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Bijil Neo-Aramaic | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
For some reason,
Bijil Neo-Aramaic is now a redirect to
Barzani Jewish Neo-Aramaic, so I've changed that in the template, which makes the Aramaic line a bit shorter, thus:
Jewish languages | ||
---|---|---|
Hebrew (eras):
Biblical |
Mishnaic |
Medieval |
Modern (vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | ||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | ||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | ||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | ||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | ||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | ||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | ||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Tom e r talk 19:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Jewish languages ( ) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Hebrew | (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern | ||
(vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | |||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | |||
Other Afro-Asiatic: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | |||
Yiddish: Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | YIVO | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | |||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | |||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | |||
Other Indo-European: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | |||
Altaic: Krymchak | Karaim Dravidian: Judeo-Malayalam Kartvelian: Gruzinic |
Jewish languages ( ) | |||
---|---|---|---|
Afro-Asiatic | |||
Hebrew | (eras): Biblical | Mishnaic | Medieval | Modern | ||
(vocalizations): Ashkenazi | Sephardi | Yemenite | Sanaani | Tiberian | Mizrahi | |||
Aramaic ( Judeo-Aramaic): Barzani | Hulaulá | Lishana Deni | Lishan Didan | Lishanid Noshan | |||
Other: Judeo-Arabic | Kayla | Judeo-Berber | Qwara | |||
Indo-European | |||
Yiddish ( Judæo-German): Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr. | YIVO | Yiddish Theater | Yeshivish | Yinglish | |||
Judæo-Romance: Catalanic | Italkit | Ladino | Judeo-Latin | Shuadit | Zarphatic | Judeo-Portuguese | |||
Judeo-Persian: Bukhori | Juhuri | Dzhidi | Judeo-Hamedani | Judeo-Golpaygani | Judeo-Shirazi | |||
Other: Yevanic ( Judæo-Greek) | Knaanic ( Judæo-Slavic) | Judeo-Marathi ( Indic) | |||
Altaic | Dravidian | Kartvelian | |
Krymchak | Karaim | Judeo-Malayalam | Gruzinic |
OK...more modifications...first I reduced the family names, and that ended up looking like
this...then I added in the "missing" articles, and got this rather putrid result. Any comments?
Category:Jewish languages Tom e r talk 06:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
If y'all are sufficiently happy with the template that it's good enough to appear in articles, say so and I'll be happy to do the grunt work. (In other words, I think any remaining issues with the new template are minor enough that they can be hashed out without adversely [or significantly] affecting the usability or appearance of the template as it shows up in the affected articles.) Cheers, Tom e r talk 16:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
What are the "Nat'l Yiddish Book Ctr.", "YIVO", and "Yiddish Theater" doing in a list of languages? -- futhark 16:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I reverted an anon's alteration of [[Italkian language|Italkit]] to [[Italkian language|Judeo-Italian varieties]] for 2 reasons:
Tom e r talk 10:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
TShilo reverted my change of "dialects" to "vocalizations" with the claim that there are even differences in vocabulary.
This is simply not so. The historical differences between Ashkenazi, Sepharadi, Yemenite, etc. are for a language that was used for liturgy and Torah study, not a spoken language in day-to-day life. The texts were written similarly in all locations and could be sent, say, from Syria to France and read, but they would be read with different pronunciations in each place. All groups shared a common written corpus but pronounced it differently.
The way "dialect" is normally understood is not appropriate to the historical reality being described in this chart. Dovi 08:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Should Amharic and Tigrinya be included here since they were (and still are) spoken by the Beta Israel and related Jewish groups in Ethiopia? What about Ge'ez as a liturgical language? ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 18:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I have rolled back User:Danielbart's inexplicable removal of Judeo-Kurdish. I'm curious to learn how the removal can possibly be defended, so if any one can, lay it on me... Tom e r talk 06:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
To add, somewhere... I'm uncertain...but I think this doesn't properly belong under "Yiddish" http://judaisme.sdv.fr//dialecte/ Comments? Tom e r talk 23:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Any interest in breaking Yiddish off to its own template? Presumably, such a template would include:
Gedächte? Tom e r talk 00:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Jewish-English helps: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] I'm not sure if the Encino/Hebonics thing is actually just a joke... Tom e r talk 01:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)