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I saw that there were made a number of changes on this template, on reasons that are not common to wikipedia policy and common logics. 1. Assembly of Preveza, as the article says it was held in Preveza (Chameria region) and was composed mainly from 200 Cham and Lab Albanian leaders, which means that is part of Cham Albanians history. 2. Tsamiko and Dance of Zalogo are dances of Chams (and of other people) but for sure they are dance from Chams (and originate from them) so I see no reason for putting them out. 3. Preveza · Ioannina · Fanari · Louros · Thesprotiko, are all of them sourced on Chameria and Cham Albanians pages. 4. Himara, as a place where Chams went after they were expelled is sourced by Vickers, in her 2002 book. 5. Aristidh Ruci and Kristo Meksi were both Chams, from Ioannina. Being from Ioannina does not make them not Chams, as the Albanian population of Ioannina was both Labs and Chams. 6. Kitsos Tzavelas · Kitsos Botsaris · Kristo Meksi · Markos Botsaris · Moscho Tzavela were all Souliotes and they are part of Chams history, as they at least spoke the Cham Albanian dialect.
If there is any reason for removing them, please provide sources. Thank you, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Some of the edits are irrelevant with this community like: Zalongo Dance, Tsamiko, at least there is not a single source that claims this so far. As for the individuals Meksi, Ruci, were from Ioannina an are which is not inside Chameria or least not considered Chams by any source. The Souliotes are not classified as Chams or Cham Albanians or even Albanians since their ethnicity wasn't that clear (see also Souliotes, linguistics should not be confused with ethnicity). Also Boua wasn't born there or at least considered as such (Cham) by any source.
As for the Assembly of Preveza I agree that is must be part of the template, same with Himara. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok, then, we need sources about the rest. So, I am putting back Tsamiko per this source that states that tsamiko is named after Cham Albanians ans searching for sources about the rest. Thanks, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid that the name itself does not necessarily imply origin or some kind of cultural connection. See Talk:Tsamiko. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Per these two new sources, no question about it: Tsamiko is back! Balkanian`s word ( talk) 21:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately I was blindly reverted, always for the usual reasons. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Moreover I suggest you use non-pro Albanian authors to support your arguments. My edits are in agreement with the mainstream bibliography. As I've see even Albanian authors of the 18th-19th century clearly distinguish Souliotes from Tsamides, so I don't see a real problem to distinguish them here. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The Souliotes now have their own template. There is no need to include them here, especially when the only source that explicitly includes them amongst the Chams is from the 19th century. Athenean ( talk) 20:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The specific section is written by Petiffer and neutrality issues are not raised by me [ [7]]. If a specific author is the only one that adopts a view not accepted by mainstream bibliography it's better to treat him with caution. This is not about how we like it, but how mainstream bibliography treats these issues. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand what do you mean when you are writing Although not part of Chameria region, Ioannina used to be a cultural center of Cham Albanians and a place where a considerable number of them lived.
id too be interested to see the connection between chams and parga..i thought that it actually was a greekspeaking town (unlike eg Gogozotos birthplace rapeza a bit to the north which was albanianspeaking..) amidst the albanianspeaking territory.. 87.202.19.161 ( talk) 09:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
im also not sure about mentioning preveza (the town i mean) and even louros-thesprotiko since the chams lived a bit northeast of that area.. 87.202.19.161 ( talk) 09:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I know that some Cham Albanians lived in Preveza, pe Dino family,but i don't know the specific number. 79.107.170.146 ( talk) 18:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC) Pavlos1988 ( talk) 18:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
You didn't answer about Ioannina;many Albanians lived in Ioannina,most of them because of studies or job(I mentioned some of them before) but as I know,no one of them was Cham (Ali pasha,Frasheris,Essad pasha,Gjata,Ali Aslani,Kristoforidhi). Pavlos1988 ( talk) 16:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The specific revert has a completely wrong edit summary [ [8]] (as per Fut. Perfect? lol very funny) and is the definition of 'blind revert'. The specific towns that Zjarri re-added were inhabited by Orthodox population and as per sources (Hart, Kretsi) were were rarely or never identified as Chams. Of course something that's 'very rarely' doesn't deserve to be mentioned on a template.
What's really childish on this issue is that Balkanian has apologized in the past about insisting on this[ [9]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:06, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, could you please leave asside these npa violations childish??? We've been around for a long time to keep insulting each other. If BW doesn't know something, that doesn't mean someone else can't enter it in wikipedia. -- Sulmues Let's talk 16:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
(Sulmues I would appreciate if you avoid npa vios this time) Since something that's 'very rarely' isn't the rule, in case it should stay we have to create a footnote and inform that they were 'very rarely' mentioned as such. I'll make the appropriate addition the following minutes. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, I pointed to the fact that you called someone's actions childish, so please don't turn the accusation around. -- Sulmues Let's talk 20:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
someone needs to source thesprotiko and louros since ive always seen them as being non cham...one source in teh cham albanians page was used erroneously so i removed it (it said '# Prévéza: dans la partie du département de Prévéza limitrophe de la Thesprotie (Prévézaniko) et dans quelques villages au nord de Thesprotiko' how 'au nord de Thesprotiko' became 'including Thesprotiko' i dont know)..can someone tell us what xhufi says? 87.202.37.26 ( talk) 23:46, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
In the typical fashion of disruption we have another revert performed [ [11]], as already stated the towns of Louros, Fanari, Thesprotiko were inhabited by Orthodox communities [ [12]]. Mysteriously the same editor that performed the revert was previously aware that these settlements were inhabited by such communiteis [ [13]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
we need a specific comment by xhufi...the french source balkanians word added to the cham albanians article mentions NORTH of thesprotiko which agrees with what ive seen also preveza even if some cham albanians lived there wasnt a part of 'chameria' so i moved it to other 87.202.23.90 ( talk) 02:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
ioannina of course isnt but please show me a source that considers the town of preveza as belonging to chameria...? 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 10:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Naska's numbers are based on the Central Archives of Albania. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua when someone cites another person's work they don't copy/paste the entire content of that book so your OR deduction is a WP:LAWYER argument. Naska is also cited by [17] Südost-Institut München, one of the top research institutions of Europe regarding the Balkans.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
it says 'districts' do you actually think that 'chameria' included the WHOLE DISTRICTS of ioannina and preveza so in the end it included ALL greek epirus outside arta??? no it included only parts of the DISTRICTS of ioannina and preveza hence NOT THE TOWNS (per every other source i see) so its worthless to your argument 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 15:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
ugh...you didnt answer my question do you think 'chameria' included the WHOLE DISTRICTS of Ioannina and Preveza?? so i know what i have to deal with here...in the end no both towns of preveza and ioannina were out of 'chameria' until you find a source stating otherwise...im happy to be corrected and consider the sources ive seen only one point of view...fischer doesnt do so 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 16:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
i note your inability to answer my points and instead answering with something irrelevant.. 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 16:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
About the so-called Macedonian Studies, seems you are completely wrong [ [22]], since 1974 the 'Institute for Balkan Studies' is a completely independent institution under the supervision of the Greek ministry of Culture. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Since when someone who was born in Argyrokastro/Gjirokastër region is considered as Cham? Pavlos1988 ( talk) 12:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Preveza is part of Chameria. The southern part. Dino family, perhaps the most prominent of the Chams, was from Preveza. Ali Dino, member of the Greek Parliament. [23]
Also, a good explanation of Preveza, Sanjak of Preveza, etc. in the context of Chameria and Cham Albanians.
[24]
....This is a kasaba in the southern Albanin to the west of Arta. It is situate in the Vilayet of Janina and is a sandjak of the same name and centre of Chameria. - Kamus al-a'lam - Ottoman Turkish Dictionary of 1889. - Published by Robert Elsie.
Also, simply "Stillborn Republic: Social Coalitions and Party Strategies in Greece, 1922-1936" - By George Th Mavrogordatos.
[25]
quoting: Party of Chamouria received 1539 votes in the districts of Ioannina and Preveza....
The nahiye of Parga includes the central part of the plain of Chameria....The people here are Muslim Albanians with some Christian Albanians and Greeks. [26]. Kamus al-a'lam - Ottoman Turkish Dictionary of 1889. - Published by Robert Elsie. Mondiad ( talk) 22:32, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
I guess Iaof needs to explain why this templatate should be added in Ioannina, Tirana and other places which are not among the pre 1945 settlements of Cham presence (or even Boston, NYC). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
These articles already mention extensively Cham Albanians and Albanian presence in those settlements up to the first half of the 20th century.So why are you trying to add the template "Cham Albanians" to cities where Cham Albanians do not live today? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 18:50, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
(unindent) Regarding Parga, it is highly debatable. Although the surrounding villages may have had an Albanian presence, the town of Parga itself was entirely Greek, as shown in Kiepert's map on the right. As for a nuanced discussion, the first step is to stop shouting in ALLCAPS [32]. Khirurg ( talk) 19:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Former minorties such as Chams and Greeks in Turkey should have such templates, as their identity is important in the respective national consciousnessNope. Wikipedia is a project with a large number of articles and uses navigational templates for navigational purposes groupping links used in multiple related articles to facilitate easier navigation between them because they relate to a single, coherent subject. Besides referring to a signle coherent subject, the articles should also refer to each other reasonably. This ain't true in the case of the Cham template for contemporary Greek cities, nor in the case of a supposed Greek template for Turkish cities. Also, the use of the Greek template to connect ("connect" may be subjective; to some editors, especially from the contentious Balkan topic area it may unavoidingly be seen as "advocating" or "promoting") ethnic groups of the past, denote past presence, highlight politics of the past, and reasons relating to national consciousness, etc, is not recommended for Turkish cities and hence you aren't seeing anyone using a Greek template in the articles of the contemporary Turkish cities of Istanbul, Izmir, Antakya, Sinop and Trabzon, all of which served as centers of the Greek civilization, Greeks were documented to have once lived in them, and some are, to this day, important Patriarchal Sees of the Greek Orthodox Church. That is because navigational templates created for historical purposes, are meant to be used mainly on historical articles, not contemporary Turkish city articles which otherwise would unintentedly give them nationalist/flag bearing characteristics, which is what we should avoid in Wikipedia. So, if you want to avoid double standards here, the same rationale should be followed in the case of the Cham Template and articles dedicated to the contemporary Greek cities. If you really want these cities such as Paramythia and Parga, or even Igoumenitsa, Preveza and Ioannina to be mentioned due to their past importance to the Chams and their significance to the Cham identity and respective national consciousness, this can be done by mentioning these cities in a historical context, in historical articles whose the coherent subject are the Chams who used to live historically in them. I vehemently oppose, for these (and many other) reasons, to the use of navigational templates like how it was done these days, by placing them anywhere and on almost every city article, even ones (such as Ioannina) which are not listed in the template's "settlement" section. This just isn't the way to go. Edit warring to have them stay, and pointing to Northern Epirus as an argument, not only worsens things but also gives wrong impressions to the other editors. If you really do care about following Wikipedia's best practices, then you should emphasize on expanding historical articles whose the Cham Albanians are the single coherent subject instead of adding a Cham template on every Greek city article they do not live at anymore. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 05:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Cam, whereas the inland areas are claimed to be Greek-inhabited.[34] Even the consensus within Greek research is against the non-inclusion of Sagiada.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
In 1566, Sagiada is described as small village with 30 households inhabited by Albanians (habitato puro de albanesi).The more this gets dragged on, the more sources will be added and more unreasonable its non-inclusion becomes. This small settlement has its own importance in the history of this community. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Camand the replies include "Ok, but the present-day village is a few hundred m closer to the coast", what sort of common baseline are we discussing about? Where's the baseline when CA has went through a cleanup, but the NE template claims that there's a Greek community in Shkodër and Tepelenë? Nobody wants to have a prolonged discussion about templates which few people read and even fewer of those who read them believe what doesn't confirm their personal bias. But a middle ground has to mean an actual middle ground.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:41, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
A few Greek families in Gjirokastër and Vlorë. Maybe we should remove Gjirokastër altogether from the NE template.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Korce has never been a centre of the ethnic Greek minority in Albania[37] -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
WP:CHERRY means that Alexikoua can't use Kokkolakis on Sagiada and then ignore him on Korçë. WP:CHERRY also means that because you found one source that says Greek-speaking, it doesn't change the fact that Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Cam
or every source that historically mentions it as a village inhabited by Albanians. It was a Cham Orthodox region and part of the village was burnt by the German army because it was a resistance hotspot. Greek collaborators also burnt Greek towns throughout Greece, Serb Chetniks burnt Serb towns, the Ustasha massacred Croat partisans. Communities are more divided in class terms than in terms of ethnicity. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 02:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
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I saw that there were made a number of changes on this template, on reasons that are not common to wikipedia policy and common logics. 1. Assembly of Preveza, as the article says it was held in Preveza (Chameria region) and was composed mainly from 200 Cham and Lab Albanian leaders, which means that is part of Cham Albanians history. 2. Tsamiko and Dance of Zalogo are dances of Chams (and of other people) but for sure they are dance from Chams (and originate from them) so I see no reason for putting them out. 3. Preveza · Ioannina · Fanari · Louros · Thesprotiko, are all of them sourced on Chameria and Cham Albanians pages. 4. Himara, as a place where Chams went after they were expelled is sourced by Vickers, in her 2002 book. 5. Aristidh Ruci and Kristo Meksi were both Chams, from Ioannina. Being from Ioannina does not make them not Chams, as the Albanian population of Ioannina was both Labs and Chams. 6. Kitsos Tzavelas · Kitsos Botsaris · Kristo Meksi · Markos Botsaris · Moscho Tzavela were all Souliotes and they are part of Chams history, as they at least spoke the Cham Albanian dialect.
If there is any reason for removing them, please provide sources. Thank you, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Some of the edits are irrelevant with this community like: Zalongo Dance, Tsamiko, at least there is not a single source that claims this so far. As for the individuals Meksi, Ruci, were from Ioannina an are which is not inside Chameria or least not considered Chams by any source. The Souliotes are not classified as Chams or Cham Albanians or even Albanians since their ethnicity wasn't that clear (see also Souliotes, linguistics should not be confused with ethnicity). Also Boua wasn't born there or at least considered as such (Cham) by any source.
As for the Assembly of Preveza I agree that is must be part of the template, same with Himara. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok, then, we need sources about the rest. So, I am putting back Tsamiko per this source that states that tsamiko is named after Cham Albanians ans searching for sources about the rest. Thanks, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid that the name itself does not necessarily imply origin or some kind of cultural connection. See Talk:Tsamiko. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Per these two new sources, no question about it: Tsamiko is back! Balkanian`s word ( talk) 21:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately I was blindly reverted, always for the usual reasons. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Moreover I suggest you use non-pro Albanian authors to support your arguments. My edits are in agreement with the mainstream bibliography. As I've see even Albanian authors of the 18th-19th century clearly distinguish Souliotes from Tsamides, so I don't see a real problem to distinguish them here. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The Souliotes now have their own template. There is no need to include them here, especially when the only source that explicitly includes them amongst the Chams is from the 19th century. Athenean ( talk) 20:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The specific section is written by Petiffer and neutrality issues are not raised by me [ [7]]. If a specific author is the only one that adopts a view not accepted by mainstream bibliography it's better to treat him with caution. This is not about how we like it, but how mainstream bibliography treats these issues. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand what do you mean when you are writing Although not part of Chameria region, Ioannina used to be a cultural center of Cham Albanians and a place where a considerable number of them lived.
id too be interested to see the connection between chams and parga..i thought that it actually was a greekspeaking town (unlike eg Gogozotos birthplace rapeza a bit to the north which was albanianspeaking..) amidst the albanianspeaking territory.. 87.202.19.161 ( talk) 09:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
im also not sure about mentioning preveza (the town i mean) and even louros-thesprotiko since the chams lived a bit northeast of that area.. 87.202.19.161 ( talk) 09:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I know that some Cham Albanians lived in Preveza, pe Dino family,but i don't know the specific number. 79.107.170.146 ( talk) 18:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC) Pavlos1988 ( talk) 18:18, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
You didn't answer about Ioannina;many Albanians lived in Ioannina,most of them because of studies or job(I mentioned some of them before) but as I know,no one of them was Cham (Ali pasha,Frasheris,Essad pasha,Gjata,Ali Aslani,Kristoforidhi). Pavlos1988 ( talk) 16:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The specific revert has a completely wrong edit summary [ [8]] (as per Fut. Perfect? lol very funny) and is the definition of 'blind revert'. The specific towns that Zjarri re-added were inhabited by Orthodox population and as per sources (Hart, Kretsi) were were rarely or never identified as Chams. Of course something that's 'very rarely' doesn't deserve to be mentioned on a template.
What's really childish on this issue is that Balkanian has apologized in the past about insisting on this[ [9]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:06, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, could you please leave asside these npa violations childish??? We've been around for a long time to keep insulting each other. If BW doesn't know something, that doesn't mean someone else can't enter it in wikipedia. -- Sulmues Let's talk 16:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
(Sulmues I would appreciate if you avoid npa vios this time) Since something that's 'very rarely' isn't the rule, in case it should stay we have to create a footnote and inform that they were 'very rarely' mentioned as such. I'll make the appropriate addition the following minutes. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, I pointed to the fact that you called someone's actions childish, so please don't turn the accusation around. -- Sulmues Let's talk 20:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
someone needs to source thesprotiko and louros since ive always seen them as being non cham...one source in teh cham albanians page was used erroneously so i removed it (it said '# Prévéza: dans la partie du département de Prévéza limitrophe de la Thesprotie (Prévézaniko) et dans quelques villages au nord de Thesprotiko' how 'au nord de Thesprotiko' became 'including Thesprotiko' i dont know)..can someone tell us what xhufi says? 87.202.37.26 ( talk) 23:46, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
In the typical fashion of disruption we have another revert performed [ [11]], as already stated the towns of Louros, Fanari, Thesprotiko were inhabited by Orthodox communities [ [12]]. Mysteriously the same editor that performed the revert was previously aware that these settlements were inhabited by such communiteis [ [13]]. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
we need a specific comment by xhufi...the french source balkanians word added to the cham albanians article mentions NORTH of thesprotiko which agrees with what ive seen also preveza even if some cham albanians lived there wasnt a part of 'chameria' so i moved it to other 87.202.23.90 ( talk) 02:37, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
ioannina of course isnt but please show me a source that considers the town of preveza as belonging to chameria...? 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 10:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Naska's numbers are based on the Central Archives of Albania. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua when someone cites another person's work they don't copy/paste the entire content of that book so your OR deduction is a WP:LAWYER argument. Naska is also cited by [17] Südost-Institut München, one of the top research institutions of Europe regarding the Balkans.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
it says 'districts' do you actually think that 'chameria' included the WHOLE DISTRICTS of ioannina and preveza so in the end it included ALL greek epirus outside arta??? no it included only parts of the DISTRICTS of ioannina and preveza hence NOT THE TOWNS (per every other source i see) so its worthless to your argument 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 15:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
ugh...you didnt answer my question do you think 'chameria' included the WHOLE DISTRICTS of Ioannina and Preveza?? so i know what i have to deal with here...in the end no both towns of preveza and ioannina were out of 'chameria' until you find a source stating otherwise...im happy to be corrected and consider the sources ive seen only one point of view...fischer doesnt do so 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 16:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
i note your inability to answer my points and instead answering with something irrelevant.. 87.202.4.223 ( talk) 16:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
About the so-called Macedonian Studies, seems you are completely wrong [ [22]], since 1974 the 'Institute for Balkan Studies' is a completely independent institution under the supervision of the Greek ministry of Culture. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Since when someone who was born in Argyrokastro/Gjirokastër region is considered as Cham? Pavlos1988 ( talk) 12:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Preveza is part of Chameria. The southern part. Dino family, perhaps the most prominent of the Chams, was from Preveza. Ali Dino, member of the Greek Parliament. [23]
Also, a good explanation of Preveza, Sanjak of Preveza, etc. in the context of Chameria and Cham Albanians.
[24]
....This is a kasaba in the southern Albanin to the west of Arta. It is situate in the Vilayet of Janina and is a sandjak of the same name and centre of Chameria. - Kamus al-a'lam - Ottoman Turkish Dictionary of 1889. - Published by Robert Elsie.
Also, simply "Stillborn Republic: Social Coalitions and Party Strategies in Greece, 1922-1936" - By George Th Mavrogordatos.
[25]
quoting: Party of Chamouria received 1539 votes in the districts of Ioannina and Preveza....
The nahiye of Parga includes the central part of the plain of Chameria....The people here are Muslim Albanians with some Christian Albanians and Greeks. [26]. Kamus al-a'lam - Ottoman Turkish Dictionary of 1889. - Published by Robert Elsie. Mondiad ( talk) 22:32, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
I guess Iaof needs to explain why this templatate should be added in Ioannina, Tirana and other places which are not among the pre 1945 settlements of Cham presence (or even Boston, NYC). Alexikoua ( talk) 17:54, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
These articles already mention extensively Cham Albanians and Albanian presence in those settlements up to the first half of the 20th century.So why are you trying to add the template "Cham Albanians" to cities where Cham Albanians do not live today? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 18:50, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
(unindent) Regarding Parga, it is highly debatable. Although the surrounding villages may have had an Albanian presence, the town of Parga itself was entirely Greek, as shown in Kiepert's map on the right. As for a nuanced discussion, the first step is to stop shouting in ALLCAPS [32]. Khirurg ( talk) 19:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Former minorties such as Chams and Greeks in Turkey should have such templates, as their identity is important in the respective national consciousnessNope. Wikipedia is a project with a large number of articles and uses navigational templates for navigational purposes groupping links used in multiple related articles to facilitate easier navigation between them because they relate to a single, coherent subject. Besides referring to a signle coherent subject, the articles should also refer to each other reasonably. This ain't true in the case of the Cham template for contemporary Greek cities, nor in the case of a supposed Greek template for Turkish cities. Also, the use of the Greek template to connect ("connect" may be subjective; to some editors, especially from the contentious Balkan topic area it may unavoidingly be seen as "advocating" or "promoting") ethnic groups of the past, denote past presence, highlight politics of the past, and reasons relating to national consciousness, etc, is not recommended for Turkish cities and hence you aren't seeing anyone using a Greek template in the articles of the contemporary Turkish cities of Istanbul, Izmir, Antakya, Sinop and Trabzon, all of which served as centers of the Greek civilization, Greeks were documented to have once lived in them, and some are, to this day, important Patriarchal Sees of the Greek Orthodox Church. That is because navigational templates created for historical purposes, are meant to be used mainly on historical articles, not contemporary Turkish city articles which otherwise would unintentedly give them nationalist/flag bearing characteristics, which is what we should avoid in Wikipedia. So, if you want to avoid double standards here, the same rationale should be followed in the case of the Cham Template and articles dedicated to the contemporary Greek cities. If you really want these cities such as Paramythia and Parga, or even Igoumenitsa, Preveza and Ioannina to be mentioned due to their past importance to the Chams and their significance to the Cham identity and respective national consciousness, this can be done by mentioning these cities in a historical context, in historical articles whose the coherent subject are the Chams who used to live historically in them. I vehemently oppose, for these (and many other) reasons, to the use of navigational templates like how it was done these days, by placing them anywhere and on almost every city article, even ones (such as Ioannina) which are not listed in the template's "settlement" section. This just isn't the way to go. Edit warring to have them stay, and pointing to Northern Epirus as an argument, not only worsens things but also gives wrong impressions to the other editors. If you really do care about following Wikipedia's best practices, then you should emphasize on expanding historical articles whose the Cham Albanians are the single coherent subject instead of adding a Cham template on every Greek city article they do not live at anymore. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 05:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Cam, whereas the inland areas are claimed to be Greek-inhabited.[34] Even the consensus within Greek research is against the non-inclusion of Sagiada.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
In 1566, Sagiada is described as small village with 30 households inhabited by Albanians (habitato puro de albanesi).The more this gets dragged on, the more sources will be added and more unreasonable its non-inclusion becomes. This small settlement has its own importance in the history of this community. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Camand the replies include "Ok, but the present-day village is a few hundred m closer to the coast", what sort of common baseline are we discussing about? Where's the baseline when CA has went through a cleanup, but the NE template claims that there's a Greek community in Shkodër and Tepelenë? Nobody wants to have a prolonged discussion about templates which few people read and even fewer of those who read them believe what doesn't confirm their personal bias. But a middle ground has to mean an actual middle ground.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:41, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
A few Greek families in Gjirokastër and Vlorë. Maybe we should remove Gjirokastër altogether from the NE template.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Korce has never been a centre of the ethnic Greek minority in Albania[37] -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
WP:CHERRY means that Alexikoua can't use Kokkolakis on Sagiada and then ignore him on Korçë. WP:CHERRY also means that because you found one source that says Greek-speaking, it doesn't change the fact that Modern Greek scholars tend to differentiate between different groups of Cams, so that the Epirus coast stretching from the Albanian border north of the old Ottoman port of Sagiada down to Preveza is acknowledged as Cam
or every source that historically mentions it as a village inhabited by Albanians. It was a Cham Orthodox region and part of the village was burnt by the German army because it was a resistance hotspot. Greek collaborators also burnt Greek towns throughout Greece, Serb Chetniks burnt Serb towns, the Ustasha massacred Croat partisans. Communities are more divided in class terms than in terms of ethnicity. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 02:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)