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This is about the Literature of Azerbaijan. I corrected the template by removing non-related figures such as Iranians for example. Hajji Piruz 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure. But then how do the Persian poets fit in and the Azeri language poets that were not born in Arran, Shirvan, or Azerbaijan fit in? I moved the page and changed the article title to encompass a broader spectrum of literary figures. Hajji Piruz 03:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the title Literature of Azerbaijan is general and covers pretty much the authors that modern Azerbaijani people associated their literature with, regardless of whether those wrote in Turkic, Persian or Arabic. There is no such thing as Literature of Arran or Shirvan, no such term was used by scholars. Also, Muhammad Fuzuli is Azerbaijani Turkic poet, as his most significant writings were in this dialect. Of course, he also wrote in Persian and Arabic, which is mentioned in the template. Ali thanks for your additions. Atabek 21:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Theodore Dreiser wrote in English, he is nevertheless American and not English writer. Also, non-Azeri language writers were included in the list by myself and Ali Doostzadeh. Atabek 16:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If we choose to divide the template into period sections, don't you think Iraj Mirza and Parvin E'tesami should be placed in Early 19th to Mid-20th Century, as both of them died before 1950? Plus in terms of literary style, they were classical poets and can hardly be considered contemporary. Parishan 07:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Although initially I was supportive of this template(and the main reason was not scientific but because the dispute at that time was between two different parties which was poisoning the atmosphere and I wanted to calm the situation down from further escalation but now that things are calm),I believe this template has too many problems, is discriminatory and has too many ambiguities.
1) Yesterday I went to [ [4]] and I had to change it, since the template was directing to Azerbaijani Turkish literature. This is obviously wrong since most of the classical people did not write in that language and the language not formed/spread in the area at their time.
2) Pur-Hasan (Hasan-Oglu) arguably the oldest poet that has written in Turkic close to Azerbaijani-Turkish is from Khorasan. We have two ghazals left from him in Azerbaijani-Turkish but he also wrote in Persian as well. How can Khorasan in Iran be mentioned as part of Azerbaijan? Sure the language is "Azerbaijani Turkish literature" but Khorasan is in Eastern Iran not in Azerbaijan.
3) Why isn't Armenian literature from Azerbaijan mentioned?(Similarly if there was a literature of Armenia, then Persian/Turkish poets from the area need to be mentioned)
4) Why shouldn't Sayat-Nova, Armenian born in Tiflis not be mentioned since he has written important works in Azerbaijani-Turkish? He is by 100% definition Azerbaijani-Turkish literature since he utilized that language and expressed his ideas in it. Just because he is Armenian or born in Tiflis does not mean he should be excluded. Of course then we would have to add also in Armenian and also in Georgian.
5) Fizuli and Nasimi were from Iraq, why is it called literature of Azerbaijan rather than Azerbaijani-Turkish literature?
6) Iranian Azerbaijan is part of Iran first, not Azerbaijan and it is diverse like the rest of Iran. It is not an independent country or region or even mono-cultural. There are diverse people living there including Turkish speakers from Azerbaijan, Armenians, Assyrians, Tats/Persians, Talysh, Kurds. Important Kurdish literature has come from area of West Azerbaijan. Same with republic of Azerbaijan which has along with Azerbaijani-speakers, other speakers like Armenians, Talysh, Tat, Lezgins, Kurds and etc. So literature of Azerbaijan template should include literature of these people(Kurds, Lezgins, Armenians, Talysh)..if we are discussing geographical areas. Although both areas now have a majority Turkish speaking population, this was not the case during the middle ages and they were actually culturally not part of the same space. Although cities in Arran/Shirwan had Persian speaking populations(specially among it's Muslims) in the middle ages, the caucus was always a diverse place. Iranian Azerbaijan on the other hand was mainly Iranic speaking.
7) Historically too, some of these poets would be from Arran/Shirvan at that time not Azerbaijan. For example Khaqani Shirvani would not consider himself from Azerbaijan at that time, since it was Shirvan and he lived under the Shirvanshah. So this is inaccurate.
8) Shah Qasim Anvar has two ghazals in Turkish and 8-20(I forgot the exact number) ghazals in the peculiar Gilaki Iranian language, and the rest of his work (99% of it) are in Persian. Now we would have to add "Also in Gilaki"(along with Georgian and Armenian for Sayat-Nova).
9) Too little emphasis on the Persian literature of the area relative to Azerbaijani Turkish. The template says:"Unless otherwise indicated author wrote in Azerbaijani". I do not think Azerbaijani-Turkish is superior than any of the languages named that it should have this distinction. For example, I can name 114 classical poets from Shirwan,Arran, Azerbaijan, Tiflis just from the one book Nozhat al-Majales, all of them writing in Persian(note the list does not need 114 names but I am just pointing out). In fact, I can argue that prior to the 20th century, there has been more Persian output than Azerbaijani Turkish output. That is definitely case prior to the 19th century and the ratio too would be something like 10 to 1, if not more. Note I am not saying Persian is superior, but the note that "unless otherwise indicated author wrote in Azerbaijani" puts primacy to Azerbaijani Turkish.
10) The solution that does not cause any ambiguity is to change it to Azeri-Turkish or Azerbaijani-Turkish literature, so Fizuli(Iraq), Pur Hasan(Khorasan), Nasimi(Shiraz, Baghdad, and other places depending who you ask),Sayat-Nova are mentioned and the rest of the complications(geographical boundary, politics, deemographic changes) are solved. The people that wrote in Persian literature are already in the Persian literature template. They themselves consider their poetry to be Persian literature (for example Nizami Ganjavi mentions Dorr-i-Dari (Persian pearl) with regards to his work). Similarly Fizuli describes his Turkish work as Turkish. Literature at it's fine point is defined by the language it is written in. Some of the people that are popular regardless of their ethnic background can be mentioned with regards to the modern association that is felt between them and the republic of Azerbaijan irregardless of background in their own articles (see the introduction of Nizami where we said his cultural heritage is shared by four countries). But we know at many times there was no country Azerbaijan or Iran, although geographical area existed and most of the time, Azerbaijan along with Arran/Shirwan would be part of geographic/cultural Iran(See Nezami's reference with regards to Shirwanshah). Also Iranian Azerbaijan should not be considered a separate component from Iran (this template gives it this feeling) and of course definitely not Khorasan. For example Rudaki was born near Bukhara(modern Uzbekistan), he is culturally associated with Persian language and culture, but in reality if we are naming an area, it would be "literature of Uzbekistan". Same with some of the authors like Nasimi, Pur Hasan, Fizuli which are probably among the important three(Literature of Iraq, literature of Iran/Khorasan), but none of them are from Azerbaijan. Or the Zoroastrian Persian Bahmanyar who seems to be more popular in the republic of Azerbaijan(of course due to the last 100 years of USSR encouragement in science) than even in Iran, despite being from Iran and Zoroastrian. If there are objections, please let me know and we can take a vote. Virtually all the templates I have seen associate language with literature and clicking on it will take you to that language's literature. Territories, boundaries, histories, demographics change but the language of the authors will always be a constant so the template should change. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 11:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
For Parishan. Azerbaijan in Iran is part of Iranian territory, it can not be put in a template in the Azerbaijan as territory. It is recognized territory of Iran and it includes diverse people and belongs to all Iranians. For example, Kurds make a substantial if not majority(depending on who you ask) population of western Azerbaijan of Iran. Or Assyrians and Armenians have been there historically. Now why should they be excluded? Of course, the literature output from them is Literature of Iran, since they are part of Iranian state. Same with Azeri literature from Iran. Just like, if literature of Armenia for example had western Turkey and the republic of Azerbaijan(say Karabagh), then it would cause problems in Wikipedia. "Armenian literature" on the other hand can include anyone, even from Alaska if they wrote in the Armenian language. The criterion for the templates were not clear. Any literature from Iranian Azerbaijan is Azerbaijani Turkish literature from Iran and hence literature of Iran (geographical region).
Else this pushes irredentist claims. Same with Khorasan in Iran (the first poet to write in Azerbaijani Turkish was from this area) or Iraq. There is geographical ambiguities with this term "Literature of Azerbaijan". Khaqani Shirvani for example would not be part of Azerbaijan at that time. He was part of Shirvan. So this is inaccurate. Or even Nezami uses the term Arran and Azarabadegaan (which implies separate regions). Sometimes a person was just born in [[[Tabriz]] like Parvin Etesami but their father was from central Iran, yet Kurds/Armenians/Assyrians/Talysh/Lezgins have been in the geographical region of Iranian Azerbaijan and the republic of Azerbaijan for at least a thousand year. So that makes no sense. Other times though, we have people in Iraq or Khorasan. Then Lezgin, Talysh, Avar, Tat, Armenian literature from the republic of Azerbaijan can not be excluded, if this is a literature of Azerbaijan(Geographic). Neither can Persian literature be given a secondary role, given that the area has produced more Persian literature up to the 19th century and if we are talking about literary output, combining Azerbaijani-Turkish speaking populations of Iran and Azerbaijan, again Persian has more output in the last two centuries, so the template should contain "wrote in Persian unless indicated"(given that up to 19th century the ratio is even greater and the area had Persian poetry at least 300 years before Turkish poetry). So the template does not give Persian literature it's true place. Also the claim: "Armenian were not included because Armenian literature does not represent the traditional Islamic literary styles common to Persians and Azeris." does not have Encyclopedic merit, since if Karabagh and the rest of Armenians are from the geographical territory of Azerbaijan, they can not be excluded by definition. That is discriminatory and I do not see Islamic literature only being mentioned in template and the title being called "Islamic literature of Azerbaijan". Similarly if there is a template literature of Armenia, it needs to include Azerbaijani-Turkish and Persian and Kurdish literature and it should not include territories of the republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey, even if they wrote in the language. It is the same with Iran (if there was such a template). But virtually all the literature templates I have seen are related to a language. Note yesterday I changed Iranian_Literature and also I noticed there was a conflict in Sayat Nova, but since this is an Encyclopedia and one can not exclude him because he is Armenian. The template of literature of Azerbaijan was on the other hand going to Azerbaijani Turkish literature. And if Iran's Azerbaijan is claimed(which is irredentist and unacceptable, since it is part of Iran), then Armenian, Assyrian, Talysh and etc. poets should be put in, but the major complication is that Iranian Azerbaijan is part of Iran. A separate article on the importance of Persian literature from current territory of the republic of Azerbaijan (starting at least from Shaddadids) and the Caucus in general, can have its own article and be a footnote. No one is taking away Persian literature from the republic of Azerbaijan, but template goes with a language in virtually all the Wikipedia articles. This would make it scientific and then it can be put in the footnote, but Persian language itself can not be put in a footnote, since it has had the primary role and still does in Iranian Azerbaijan in terms of literature(since there was no Russian encouragement of disuse of Persian as in the Caucus). For example you said: Persian language was an inalienable part of Azerbaijani literature and culture. In reality it is Persian literature not Azerbaijani literature, since the authors themselves would refer to it as Persian literature/poetry. For example: نظامی که نظم دری کار اوست دری نظم کردن سزاوار اوست Nezami whose skill is producing Persian poetry (Nazm-e-Dari) Versification of Persian(Dari Nazm Kardan) poetry is what suits him
but more importantly, Persian literature is currently an inalienable part of the culture of Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranians in general. And there are more Iranian Azerbaijanis, so it can not be given a secondary role. Literature goes with language, specially when it goes back to periods when national identities were not formed yet. Note, authoritative Encyclopedias do not list Persian literature under Azerbaijani literature and if anything, we can not give Persian literature a secondary position. Persian literature should not be called simply "literature of Azerbaijan" , but it should be "Persian literature from the geographical territory of Azerbaijan". Since the authors themselves call it Persian poetry or literature (Adabiyaat Farsi) and we should not reinterpret history based on nationalistic historiography. Or another option is that you can have a separate template Persian literature from the Caucus, if such a template is necessary, but it is not, since the most important ones are contained in the general Persian literature template. The best solution is to simply make an article Persian literature from the Caucus. Look, no hard feelings, but the template was somewhat nationalistic/irredentist(I talked to an admin about this to get his opinion with regards to the points I mentioned and the template is in many discriminatory and irredentist) and it can not contain Khorasan, Iranian Azerbaijan or excludes various ethnic groups from Iranian Azerbaijan or even the republic of Azerbaijan (Armenians or other groups can not be excluded just because there was an conflict since Encyclopedia needs to be technical). Also, if we look at it from nationalistic angle, the territory of the republic of Azerbaijan belonged to Iranian states many times and it can be said "literature of Iran". Where-as the territory of Iranian Azerbaijan has never been a separate state that was jointed to the republic of Azerbaijan, without including portions of Iran like Jebal or Tehran. Note even if there was feudal kingdoms, some of the famous poets have praised their rulers as rulers of Iran and that was their cultural world. Of course you will not accept this either. All this sort of arguments will get us no where, we need to to be scientific and there should be something that is clear and encyclopedic without causing such nuisances. For example if a poet is considered a national poet or an important poet, then it should be in its own article (like Nizami who is shared by four countries and the article reflects it). But the concept of "national" implies nationality/citizenship and is ambiguous. That is it is defined by citizens of a country rather than an Encyclopedia. In Tehran even, there are people that compose Azerbaijani Turkish poetry, but this can not be called Azerbaijan as a territory(there are irredentist claims). But they have composed it in Azerbaijani Turkish language. Azerbaijani Turkish literature with its own rich literature does not cause any ambiguity(except some have preferred Azerbaijani Turkic). We can not use narrow criterion and unscientific views to define the meaning of terms. This template should cause no ambiguity. If there is back and forth arguing, we should simply take a vote in Wikipedia, since I do not know if I can make myself more clear by repeating the same stuff. Virtually all templates I have seen refer to a specific language and the ones that don't will have some of these contradictions and should be changed. I believe I made the contradictions clear enough keeping in mind that primary goal is writing an Encyclopedia that should not be ambiguous. The problem of territorial integrity is important for citizens of Iran just like it is for other regional countries and we can not have Iranian Azerbaijan or Khorasan be mentioned outside of Iran or under another country's name in a template.-- Nepaheshgar ( talk)
Nepaheshgar, from what I understand, this whole discussion stems from your perception of 'Azerbaijan' and 'Azerbaijani' as merely a georgraphical characteristic. Well, it is not. Whether it is common in some areas and not so common in others, it is a term that describes a single ethnic group that happen to live on both sides of the international border. 'Azerbaijani literature' means literature that belongs to Azeris, Iranian and Caucasian ones, and not literature that belongs to the Republic of Azerbaijan. P.S. Please don't call it 'Caucus'; it's 'Caucasus'. 'Caucus' in English means something completely different. Parishan ( talk) 00:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Nepaheshgar, I am confused. What is it exactly that you disagree with, then? And if possible, could you please summarise your arguments in one short paragraph? Parishan ( talk) 04:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Guys , specially GM and Parishan please comment on Alborz's proposal for name change to give the template a clear non-controversial definition so territorial integrity, scientific definition and diversity of regions are respected. I note that Parishan said: "You certainly cannot take away what is Persian from Azerbaijani literature, as up until the mid-20th century the Persian language was an inalienable part of Azerbaijani literature and culture; to such great extent that local poets who wrote in Persian have always been regarded by Azerbaijanis as national poets.". But at the same time all literature templates are tied with language and in authoritative Encyclopedias, the classics will obviously come under Persian literature since the term Azerbaijani literature was not used by them, no one in their own time used it(they constantly did use Adabiyaat parsi and nazm-e-dari and etc.) and they wrote in Persian where-as Azerbaijani literature means Azerbaijani-Turkic literature. So what Parishan has commented on in my view is a later ethno-nationalistic reintrepretation of history of the region for boosting national sentiments and it is not scientific (fine for outstide of an Encyclopedia but not scientific). Iranica, Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam and virtually all authoritative sources state those classics under Persian literature. At the same time in the spirit of compromise, these will not be removed (will be left as it was in the former template) but territorial claims made on Iran and also the fact that there are Talysh, Assyrian, Kurdish, Armenian, Persian (why should one language have primacy specially if majority have written in Persian) literature from Iranian Azerbaijan or Khorasan/Iraq/Tehran will be resolved. Why won't they be removed? So Alborz has given a precise meaning to a vague term. Note this is a simple template, so lets have a compromise where everyone is happy(will get almost what they want). If it goes to WP:RM, then it will be tied with language to cause no ambiguity like the majority of other literature templates, Encyclopedias and virtually all such templates in Wikipedia (consider if it is what you really want). Specially given two arbcomms where these sort of nationalistic viewpoints are less tolerated and thankfully there are admins like Moreschi/dab (may they stay in wikipedia for a long time) who would take a scientific viewpoint in a heartbeat rather than names that can cause controversies. So I expect comments on Alborz's version rather than long intrepretations on history and literature and etc., which will get us no where. His version seems to satify both sides(except Turkic can be put for Turkish). I expect comments on Albor'z version rather than intrepretations of the vague former name which I disagree with. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 15:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it is not a good title. First of all TurkISH means Anatolian/Istanbuli Turkic language. If you wanted to stress the Turkicness of Azerbaijani language it still should have been Azerbaijani TurkIC. Secondly most of these figures wrote in Persian rather than Turkic, before the Panturkists in the rep. Azerbaijan put a de facto ban on the usage of Persian.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 08:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Sayat-Nova is an Armenian poet and ashik -- Melikov Memmed ( talk) 06:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Here
[6] , an editor's point of view is :"I do not like double standards. If you write Azerbaijani Turkic literature, write Tatar Turkic, Turkish Turkic, Uzbek Turkish, Turkmen Turkic.If it is no problem and I agree on the Azerbaijani Turkic".
I think such comparison does not make sense because 1- There is no template about none of above mentioned laguages at all (except Turkish) (as shown in
[7] ) , and "Turkey Turkic" is equivalent to "Turkish" , but Azerbajani Turkic is not Azeri , because it both means Azeri people and Azeri laguage , but Turkish is only a language 2-An
old Azeri has been used in history that is not important now , but when talking about history , and building [historical] templates , that is important 3-None of the above mentioned nations , I mean Tatars , Turkmens and Turkey did not have an extended local literature before
Turkification , but Azeri nation does have a strong history of non-Turkic literature before and after of changing language to Turkic .--
Alborz Fallah (
talk) 14:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Alborz means that they were "Azerbaijani" in the old sense (spoke Iranian/Persian languages) which is exactly equivalent to Iranian/Persian ethnic group. So they were not separate from other Persian/Iranian culture/groups. There was no separate "Azerbaijani" ethnic group then from the wider Iranian ethnic group, specially one that spoke a Turkic language. So that is why those authors cannot be "Azerbaijani"(its primary definition now has changed) because people from Azerbaijan (then) were speaking Iranian languages and not Turkic. So to claim them today as part of modern Azerbaijani ethnic group is anachronistically giving them a Turkic language, which they did not have. There was either Iranian or Turk. Nothing in between. In the region (Muslim at least) there are now mainly Iranian, Semitic and Turkic languages. The cross-influence has been much. Modern Azerbaijan falls right in between these two groups and so it is a mixture (the Persian cultural heritage is heavier, but the language is Turkic). However, now the people are very mixed together. Someone who speaks Turkish could have been speaking an Iranian language fifth generations ago and similarly someone that speaks an Iranian language could have been speaking Turkish 10 generations ago. Azerbaijani-Turkic is correct name since everyone in Iran calls the language "Torki/Turki" and it was called Torki until the 20th century in the republic of Azerbaijan. The Pahlavids did not call it Turki and that is simply wrong information. It was the Soviets who changed it from Turki to Azerbaijani. It has been called Turki centuries before that. It has never been called "Azerbaijani" until the 20th century. If you had asked Fizuli or someone write me a "poem" in Azerbaijani, they would be puzzled. Similarly if you asked someone in the 10th century about "Azerbaijani literature", they would not know what it is (it might have been the Old Azari Language whose speakers are ethnically identified as Persians by contemporary sources of that time). Because it is anachronistic. They would know what is Persian literature. They would also know Turkish literature (at least from the 14h century in the area). Right now, Azerbaijanis primarily definition is a Turkish language with heavy Persian influence. Literature templates are based upon language and not geography. That is why Fizuli of Iraq or Hasan Oglu of Khorasan is mentioned here but someone like Qatran who spoke Iranic languages (see Old Azari under language of Tabriz) did not. It is not even based on ethnicity, since someone like Nasimi would be an Arab (Seyyed) and someone like Ismail I would be a Kurd. Specially for the 10th century (Qatran) where the area was not even Turkish speaking and in the 10th century, there was no unique Azerbaijani-Turkic language. There are other people in Azerbaijan like Tats, Talysh, Kurds.. who are Iranian speakers and whose language existen then. But the issue is that the people that belong to the Azerbaijani ethnic group has gravitated towards a Turkic identity(specifically more after the collapse of the Soviet Union), so one cannot anachronistically claim people who were Western Persians like Qatran or had Persian culture, to have been the modern people in Azerbaijan (in the republic) who basically consider themselves Turks. Qatran was not a Turk. Nezami was a Kurd and had Persian cultural heritage. So to claim these as Azerbaijanis today is to claim them to be Turks equivalently since the Azerbaijani republic identifies itself as a Turkic nation. They are free to do what they want and I have no problem with whatever they choose. But without the Persian/Iranian heritage of that same geography, they do not have a golden age of culture (which Georgians and Armenians do, but there is no golden age of culture in Turkic culture in the Caucasus). I personally support your view, that Azerbaijanis are Iranians, however, this is not the view of the majority of the republic of Azerbaijan who consider themselves Turks and part of the Turkic world (and as I said, they are free to do whatever they want with this). Scholars also identify and classify based on linguistic criterions. So until your view that Azeris are not Turks becomes the predominant view, then one needs to respect the majority and also the scholarly sources. We need to keep Wikpedia away from nationalism, nationalistic sources and also Soviet concepts of geographical identity (which is rejected by admins in Wikipedia and Western scholar). Admins are well aware of these issues, specially anti-Nationalist admins know these issues well. For example Urartu are not Armenians but Armenians can be partially descendant from Urartu (the substrate is proven). Similarly, the Iranian speaking Persians of the 10th century in Azerbaijan like Qatran are not the modern Azerbaijani-Turkic speakers, but Azerbaijani-Turkic speakers are partially descendant of these. Since at the time, there was no concept of nation state, one needs to classify authors by their culture (which is the one that is well known), then ethnicity/language (which might not be known for a good deal of authors), not by modern geographical/state definitions. So Salah al-Din Ayyubi is not an Iraqi. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 15:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi
Turkmen is the more archaic Oghuz language, but as far as I have heared, Azerbaijani-Turkish and Anatolian Turkish are almost mutually intelligble (I might be wrong). Azerbaijani-Turkish is still classified as Turkish. Well if you think Azeris are not Turks, you should argue this in the Azerbaijan article. As you notice it says: "is one of the six independent Turkic states in the Caucasus region of Eurasia. ". There are other articles. For example see Turkic peoples where Azeris are again considered Turkic. I have had this argument with Azerbaijanis from the Caucasus in Wikipedia and overwhelming majority of the Caucasus ones actually are hostile to Iranians (let alone consider themselves Iranians). The general sense one gets reading Azeri media is that your(our) viewpoint is minority and majority of people in Azerbaijan as well the countries authorities consider themselves a Turkic people. Anyhow, from a scholarly point of view, the Azerbaijanis of the Caucasus (and Iran) are considered a Turkic people. I even disagree with this, but until the primary definition is changed, then there is no point in arguing. Look, I even go to the Azerbaijani article on Atropatene and they insert Turks there 2300 years ago. This is the current widespread mentality. Look at the article on Scythians, they consider that Turk too. All of these go against mainstream scholarly information. Look at the article on Medes in Azerbaijani wikipedia, against it is called: "mövcud olmuş qədim türk dövləti." [8]. If I was a mean person, I would even write a whole article on this nonsense, but what I hope to demonstrate that Azeris are not only interested in being Turks, but also Turkifying Medes, Scythians, Atropatene and of course Nezami. (Note I am talking about the current state of these articles right now). Now with the internet, one cannot hide the truth. So an average person from Caucasus Azerbaijan will probably learn English and then check the English article on Medes. So I think these things need to be fixed first.
As per that site you showed (I was emailed it about couple of weeks ago or more), except for Chelkowski, Van Ruymbeke, Talatoff, Francois de Blois who have consistently called Nezami a Persian poet (and never have used anything else), the rest of the authors are not Nezami studies expert. So they have no weight in Wikipedia WP:weight. It is like quoting a political scientist about Nezami or a mathematician about Nezami or etc. Also there are other authors that consider using the term "Azerbaijani" for him as political nature, where-as non-exist when he is called a Persian poet. Also no doubt Nezami had influence on Azerbaijani-Turkic literature, but so did even Hafez (for example Nasimi was influenced more by Hafiz than Nezami) or Ferdowsi or etc. Anyhow, on Nezami himself, he writes that نظامی که نظم دری کار اوست دری نظم کردن سزاوار اوست So he calls his own work "Persian poetry". If he had called "Azerbaijani poetry", then that would be an argument.
Now the others source, Rypka is also outdated source, but consistent in calling Nezami Persian literature. He is just note sure about Nezami's father, which is fine (but then states clearly that Persian culture was dominant and he is awaiting a study of Ganja.. he also uses "probably" that the population was not different, however new sources clearly state population was speaking Persian or Iranian language..), but he lived under USSR and his work on Nezami needs to be looked with the critical eye. Anyhow he died in 1968 and now 42 years later there are new sources. There is now new sources like Nozhat al-Majales which means that the regional literature in the 11th/12th century has to be rewritten. At the time of Rypka maybe three poets were known from Ganja, but now there are 24 from Ganja alone at that time. Not a single USSR has referenced this work, because its critical edition was published in 1987. But for example, someone like Francois de Blois refers to Nozhat al-Majales it in his book. Now the rest of the sources: for example Audrey Alstdat, Brenda Shaffer, random websites and the rest of the authors quoted have not written a single study on Nezami or do not even know Persian. Some like Shaffer even claim that Khusraw the Sassanid King was ancestors of the Turks of Caucasus. So it carries no scholarly weight. They have no weight for Nezami studies. Or Sakina Berenjian for example attributes something wrong to Shafaq, Safa and Foruzanfar which does not exist in those pages (I have those scanned in case someone needs it). It doesn't exist. Anyhow her book is not bad, but she is clear that the language of Azerbaijan was Old Azari (something you won't find in Azerbaijani wikipedia). Shafaq, Foruzanfar, Safa did not coin the term she is attributing to them. I can send you the scanned copy of those exact pages (and 5 pages back and forth between them). Iranica and Encylopeadia of Islam also clear he is a Persian poet. If it is about making long lists, anyone can do a google search and find sources: [9] (here is a list 5 times long as the one should showed that state Persian poet).
Even the geographical claim in my opinion is not correct. If you look at Nezami's work, his region is called "Arran" and Azerbaijan proper is NW Iran (in his own work). But putting aside that argument, when praising three different rulers(Shirvanshah, Ahmadilis and Eldiguzids), he calls them the ruler of "Persia/Iran". This is the sense of geography Nezami had of himself. So Arran/Sherwan/Azerbaijan were really part of the larger Iranian cultural world. He calls the Eldiguzids as the Shah of Molk-e-Ajam. He calls the Shirvanshah "Shah-e Iran", he calls the land of Ahmadilis (Atabekan-e-Maragha) as part of Iran. Note the praises of these rulers as Kings of Persia, Kings of Iran, Kings of Molk-e-Ajam (Persian realm) is not only by Nezami. Khaqani for example uses Iran for his geographical area.
On your statement: "that the Nizami of the Persian culture, but why conceal the fact of what role he plays for the Azerbaijani literature, and that he means everything to Azerbaijan". I do not conceal the first part. He has influenced non-Persian literatures such as Ottoman Turkish, Chagatay Turkish, Azerbaijani_Turkish, Pashto, Kurdish, Gurani, Baluchi, Sindhi, Urdu, Hindi and etc. As for "he means everything to Azerbaijan", in wikipedia one must use scientific terms. Some nation building had occured and now even the average Azerbaijani does not want to accept that Nezami is "Persian literature" (like he states himself). I believe that we should strive(doesn't mean we have reached) to the level that only God should mean everything in the true sense. Nezami was a humble servant of God. He was great cultural figure but he always considered himself nothing compared to God and his Prophets. However, if what you state is the case, then why not teach the Persian language in Azerbaijan for the masses (not just a few scholars), so they can get acquainted with 90% of the works of the Muslims of that region who left their mark in Persian? As someone that is studies Persian literature, I can tell you the poems of Khaqani and Nezami are among the harder ones to translate. So access to the original means access to the pure gold. The country of Azerbaijan is not going to find its identity through Russian literature, Western literature or modern Anatolian Turkish literature. It will just be a copy cat. It will need a understanding of the Persian language to find its identity and then comeup with original thought in its current language that has its basis in that geographical location. Or else, it is disconnected from 90% of the literature of the Muslims that lived there before the 19th century.
However, all these asides, I do agree with you on one thing. Current Iran did not do much and Turkey took its place. Arran/Sherwan (wether under Iranian languages and later under Turkish languages) historically have been part of Iran and Iranian culture. The population there has been small though, so a larger country can shape it under its influence (USSR/Russia and now Turkey). On the Karabagh war and 1918 war, the average Iranian wants to see complete peace between Armenians and Azeris. This is the Iranian mentality. We do not want these people fightings each other. Just like the Iran-Iraq war, which was a stupid war. I can clearly state, the average Iranian is the only regional person that is not against either country (even though some groups are supporting separatism in Iran). But the average Iranian, looks at the whole issue, and does not want war. At least this is my mentality. Now what would be Nezami's mentality (which he means everything to you as you said):
Here is a Ghazal
این خرابات مغان است در آن رندانند
شاهد و شمع و شراب و شکر و نای و سرود
هرچه در جملهی آفاق در آنجا حاضر
مؤمن و ارمنی و گبر و نصارا و یهود
گر تو خواهی که دم از صحبت ایشان بزنی
خاک پای همه شو تا که بیابی مقصود
My translation:
This is the ruin tavern of the Magians, and in it are love-rebels (Rend is a difficult word to translate due to its multiple meanings) for God
Witnesses, Candles, Wine, Sugar, Reed and Beautiful Music (these needs to be taken symbolically for the most part)
Whatever that exists in the horizon is present there
Muslims, Armenians, Zoroastrians, Christrians and Jews
If you want to be allowed in the ruin of the Magian (divine wisdom)
Become a dust upon the feet of all of these people, so that you may reach the goal. (Zanjani, Barat. “Ahwal o Athar o SharH Makhzan ol_Asraar Nezami Ganjavi”, Tehran University Publications, 2005, pg 18)
Now this might be impossible for us average people, but as you can see, this is the mentality of Nezami.
However, you are correct, and I do not like politics. But Iran has done a completely horrible job (and we do not have a good regime) in trying to re-establish cultural contacts with Caucasus Azerbaijan/Sherwan. Although one cannot ignore pan-Turkist and Soviet obstacles placed on its path. Despite the fact that at least from Sherwanshah(900 A.D.) to Qajar, and in the Sassanid, Parthian times as well, this region has been connected to the rest of the Iranian world. On this note, I am upset, but until there is a good Iranian government, I do not think the average person like myself can do much. However, even in Wikipedia, despite the fact that the Azerbaijani name for Nezami is anachronistic, I have not opposed it( I will only oppose it if there is an attempt to excise him of Persian culture). Or on Caucasian Albania, I was the only user that said it is okay. (I did not support it on Atropatene due to the article in Az Wikipedia). However, I am vehemently against assigning Nezami to anything but Persian literature (which is what he calls it) or downplaying his Persian cultural heritage (as just limited to "oh he happens to write in Persian" which ignores how he used the language and also the themes of his story being based in Persian culture). His influence in the region and on other literatures is noted.
Since wikipedia is not WP:forum, WP:soapbox, feel free to send me an email here: [10]. Usually, I do not like to violate WP:forum, but you were one of the few Caucasian Azerbaijanis I suprisingly did not see any hostility from. I did not mean to insult you by saying Azeris are Turks, I said that is currently the widespread belief and is reflected in some of the articles (I personally disagree with this definition however the rules are the rules). Just to summarize, literature templates are based on language (not region) (for example the Khorasani Hasan Oglu is included or Iraqi Fizuli). And it is better to use the widespread scholarly definitions on the type of literature a poet belongs too (when in doubt consult with the specialist sources in that area) or what a group is..even if we disagree with it . Thank you. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Medieval period is between 5th–15th century (see Middle Ages). Some of those poets should be moved to Modern or other group/section. Does Medieval have a different period in Caucasus/Middle East region? -- Zyma ( talk) 19:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
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This is about the Literature of Azerbaijan. I corrected the template by removing non-related figures such as Iranians for example. Hajji Piruz 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sure. But then how do the Persian poets fit in and the Azeri language poets that were not born in Arran, Shirvan, or Azerbaijan fit in? I moved the page and changed the article title to encompass a broader spectrum of literary figures. Hajji Piruz 03:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the title Literature of Azerbaijan is general and covers pretty much the authors that modern Azerbaijani people associated their literature with, regardless of whether those wrote in Turkic, Persian or Arabic. There is no such thing as Literature of Arran or Shirvan, no such term was used by scholars. Also, Muhammad Fuzuli is Azerbaijani Turkic poet, as his most significant writings were in this dialect. Of course, he also wrote in Persian and Arabic, which is mentioned in the template. Ali thanks for your additions. Atabek 21:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Theodore Dreiser wrote in English, he is nevertheless American and not English writer. Also, non-Azeri language writers were included in the list by myself and Ali Doostzadeh. Atabek 16:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If we choose to divide the template into period sections, don't you think Iraj Mirza and Parvin E'tesami should be placed in Early 19th to Mid-20th Century, as both of them died before 1950? Plus in terms of literary style, they were classical poets and can hardly be considered contemporary. Parishan 07:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Although initially I was supportive of this template(and the main reason was not scientific but because the dispute at that time was between two different parties which was poisoning the atmosphere and I wanted to calm the situation down from further escalation but now that things are calm),I believe this template has too many problems, is discriminatory and has too many ambiguities.
1) Yesterday I went to [ [4]] and I had to change it, since the template was directing to Azerbaijani Turkish literature. This is obviously wrong since most of the classical people did not write in that language and the language not formed/spread in the area at their time.
2) Pur-Hasan (Hasan-Oglu) arguably the oldest poet that has written in Turkic close to Azerbaijani-Turkish is from Khorasan. We have two ghazals left from him in Azerbaijani-Turkish but he also wrote in Persian as well. How can Khorasan in Iran be mentioned as part of Azerbaijan? Sure the language is "Azerbaijani Turkish literature" but Khorasan is in Eastern Iran not in Azerbaijan.
3) Why isn't Armenian literature from Azerbaijan mentioned?(Similarly if there was a literature of Armenia, then Persian/Turkish poets from the area need to be mentioned)
4) Why shouldn't Sayat-Nova, Armenian born in Tiflis not be mentioned since he has written important works in Azerbaijani-Turkish? He is by 100% definition Azerbaijani-Turkish literature since he utilized that language and expressed his ideas in it. Just because he is Armenian or born in Tiflis does not mean he should be excluded. Of course then we would have to add also in Armenian and also in Georgian.
5) Fizuli and Nasimi were from Iraq, why is it called literature of Azerbaijan rather than Azerbaijani-Turkish literature?
6) Iranian Azerbaijan is part of Iran first, not Azerbaijan and it is diverse like the rest of Iran. It is not an independent country or region or even mono-cultural. There are diverse people living there including Turkish speakers from Azerbaijan, Armenians, Assyrians, Tats/Persians, Talysh, Kurds. Important Kurdish literature has come from area of West Azerbaijan. Same with republic of Azerbaijan which has along with Azerbaijani-speakers, other speakers like Armenians, Talysh, Tat, Lezgins, Kurds and etc. So literature of Azerbaijan template should include literature of these people(Kurds, Lezgins, Armenians, Talysh)..if we are discussing geographical areas. Although both areas now have a majority Turkish speaking population, this was not the case during the middle ages and they were actually culturally not part of the same space. Although cities in Arran/Shirwan had Persian speaking populations(specially among it's Muslims) in the middle ages, the caucus was always a diverse place. Iranian Azerbaijan on the other hand was mainly Iranic speaking.
7) Historically too, some of these poets would be from Arran/Shirvan at that time not Azerbaijan. For example Khaqani Shirvani would not consider himself from Azerbaijan at that time, since it was Shirvan and he lived under the Shirvanshah. So this is inaccurate.
8) Shah Qasim Anvar has two ghazals in Turkish and 8-20(I forgot the exact number) ghazals in the peculiar Gilaki Iranian language, and the rest of his work (99% of it) are in Persian. Now we would have to add "Also in Gilaki"(along with Georgian and Armenian for Sayat-Nova).
9) Too little emphasis on the Persian literature of the area relative to Azerbaijani Turkish. The template says:"Unless otherwise indicated author wrote in Azerbaijani". I do not think Azerbaijani-Turkish is superior than any of the languages named that it should have this distinction. For example, I can name 114 classical poets from Shirwan,Arran, Azerbaijan, Tiflis just from the one book Nozhat al-Majales, all of them writing in Persian(note the list does not need 114 names but I am just pointing out). In fact, I can argue that prior to the 20th century, there has been more Persian output than Azerbaijani Turkish output. That is definitely case prior to the 19th century and the ratio too would be something like 10 to 1, if not more. Note I am not saying Persian is superior, but the note that "unless otherwise indicated author wrote in Azerbaijani" puts primacy to Azerbaijani Turkish.
10) The solution that does not cause any ambiguity is to change it to Azeri-Turkish or Azerbaijani-Turkish literature, so Fizuli(Iraq), Pur Hasan(Khorasan), Nasimi(Shiraz, Baghdad, and other places depending who you ask),Sayat-Nova are mentioned and the rest of the complications(geographical boundary, politics, deemographic changes) are solved. The people that wrote in Persian literature are already in the Persian literature template. They themselves consider their poetry to be Persian literature (for example Nizami Ganjavi mentions Dorr-i-Dari (Persian pearl) with regards to his work). Similarly Fizuli describes his Turkish work as Turkish. Literature at it's fine point is defined by the language it is written in. Some of the people that are popular regardless of their ethnic background can be mentioned with regards to the modern association that is felt between them and the republic of Azerbaijan irregardless of background in their own articles (see the introduction of Nizami where we said his cultural heritage is shared by four countries). But we know at many times there was no country Azerbaijan or Iran, although geographical area existed and most of the time, Azerbaijan along with Arran/Shirwan would be part of geographic/cultural Iran(See Nezami's reference with regards to Shirwanshah). Also Iranian Azerbaijan should not be considered a separate component from Iran (this template gives it this feeling) and of course definitely not Khorasan. For example Rudaki was born near Bukhara(modern Uzbekistan), he is culturally associated with Persian language and culture, but in reality if we are naming an area, it would be "literature of Uzbekistan". Same with some of the authors like Nasimi, Pur Hasan, Fizuli which are probably among the important three(Literature of Iraq, literature of Iran/Khorasan), but none of them are from Azerbaijan. Or the Zoroastrian Persian Bahmanyar who seems to be more popular in the republic of Azerbaijan(of course due to the last 100 years of USSR encouragement in science) than even in Iran, despite being from Iran and Zoroastrian. If there are objections, please let me know and we can take a vote. Virtually all the templates I have seen associate language with literature and clicking on it will take you to that language's literature. Territories, boundaries, histories, demographics change but the language of the authors will always be a constant so the template should change. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 11:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
For Parishan. Azerbaijan in Iran is part of Iranian territory, it can not be put in a template in the Azerbaijan as territory. It is recognized territory of Iran and it includes diverse people and belongs to all Iranians. For example, Kurds make a substantial if not majority(depending on who you ask) population of western Azerbaijan of Iran. Or Assyrians and Armenians have been there historically. Now why should they be excluded? Of course, the literature output from them is Literature of Iran, since they are part of Iranian state. Same with Azeri literature from Iran. Just like, if literature of Armenia for example had western Turkey and the republic of Azerbaijan(say Karabagh), then it would cause problems in Wikipedia. "Armenian literature" on the other hand can include anyone, even from Alaska if they wrote in the Armenian language. The criterion for the templates were not clear. Any literature from Iranian Azerbaijan is Azerbaijani Turkish literature from Iran and hence literature of Iran (geographical region).
Else this pushes irredentist claims. Same with Khorasan in Iran (the first poet to write in Azerbaijani Turkish was from this area) or Iraq. There is geographical ambiguities with this term "Literature of Azerbaijan". Khaqani Shirvani for example would not be part of Azerbaijan at that time. He was part of Shirvan. So this is inaccurate. Or even Nezami uses the term Arran and Azarabadegaan (which implies separate regions). Sometimes a person was just born in [[[Tabriz]] like Parvin Etesami but their father was from central Iran, yet Kurds/Armenians/Assyrians/Talysh/Lezgins have been in the geographical region of Iranian Azerbaijan and the republic of Azerbaijan for at least a thousand year. So that makes no sense. Other times though, we have people in Iraq or Khorasan. Then Lezgin, Talysh, Avar, Tat, Armenian literature from the republic of Azerbaijan can not be excluded, if this is a literature of Azerbaijan(Geographic). Neither can Persian literature be given a secondary role, given that the area has produced more Persian literature up to the 19th century and if we are talking about literary output, combining Azerbaijani-Turkish speaking populations of Iran and Azerbaijan, again Persian has more output in the last two centuries, so the template should contain "wrote in Persian unless indicated"(given that up to 19th century the ratio is even greater and the area had Persian poetry at least 300 years before Turkish poetry). So the template does not give Persian literature it's true place. Also the claim: "Armenian were not included because Armenian literature does not represent the traditional Islamic literary styles common to Persians and Azeris." does not have Encyclopedic merit, since if Karabagh and the rest of Armenians are from the geographical territory of Azerbaijan, they can not be excluded by definition. That is discriminatory and I do not see Islamic literature only being mentioned in template and the title being called "Islamic literature of Azerbaijan". Similarly if there is a template literature of Armenia, it needs to include Azerbaijani-Turkish and Persian and Kurdish literature and it should not include territories of the republic of Azerbaijan or Turkey, even if they wrote in the language. It is the same with Iran (if there was such a template). But virtually all the literature templates I have seen are related to a language. Note yesterday I changed Iranian_Literature and also I noticed there was a conflict in Sayat Nova, but since this is an Encyclopedia and one can not exclude him because he is Armenian. The template of literature of Azerbaijan was on the other hand going to Azerbaijani Turkish literature. And if Iran's Azerbaijan is claimed(which is irredentist and unacceptable, since it is part of Iran), then Armenian, Assyrian, Talysh and etc. poets should be put in, but the major complication is that Iranian Azerbaijan is part of Iran. A separate article on the importance of Persian literature from current territory of the republic of Azerbaijan (starting at least from Shaddadids) and the Caucus in general, can have its own article and be a footnote. No one is taking away Persian literature from the republic of Azerbaijan, but template goes with a language in virtually all the Wikipedia articles. This would make it scientific and then it can be put in the footnote, but Persian language itself can not be put in a footnote, since it has had the primary role and still does in Iranian Azerbaijan in terms of literature(since there was no Russian encouragement of disuse of Persian as in the Caucus). For example you said: Persian language was an inalienable part of Azerbaijani literature and culture. In reality it is Persian literature not Azerbaijani literature, since the authors themselves would refer to it as Persian literature/poetry. For example: نظامی که نظم دری کار اوست دری نظم کردن سزاوار اوست Nezami whose skill is producing Persian poetry (Nazm-e-Dari) Versification of Persian(Dari Nazm Kardan) poetry is what suits him
but more importantly, Persian literature is currently an inalienable part of the culture of Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranians in general. And there are more Iranian Azerbaijanis, so it can not be given a secondary role. Literature goes with language, specially when it goes back to periods when national identities were not formed yet. Note, authoritative Encyclopedias do not list Persian literature under Azerbaijani literature and if anything, we can not give Persian literature a secondary position. Persian literature should not be called simply "literature of Azerbaijan" , but it should be "Persian literature from the geographical territory of Azerbaijan". Since the authors themselves call it Persian poetry or literature (Adabiyaat Farsi) and we should not reinterpret history based on nationalistic historiography. Or another option is that you can have a separate template Persian literature from the Caucus, if such a template is necessary, but it is not, since the most important ones are contained in the general Persian literature template. The best solution is to simply make an article Persian literature from the Caucus. Look, no hard feelings, but the template was somewhat nationalistic/irredentist(I talked to an admin about this to get his opinion with regards to the points I mentioned and the template is in many discriminatory and irredentist) and it can not contain Khorasan, Iranian Azerbaijan or excludes various ethnic groups from Iranian Azerbaijan or even the republic of Azerbaijan (Armenians or other groups can not be excluded just because there was an conflict since Encyclopedia needs to be technical). Also, if we look at it from nationalistic angle, the territory of the republic of Azerbaijan belonged to Iranian states many times and it can be said "literature of Iran". Where-as the territory of Iranian Azerbaijan has never been a separate state that was jointed to the republic of Azerbaijan, without including portions of Iran like Jebal or Tehran. Note even if there was feudal kingdoms, some of the famous poets have praised their rulers as rulers of Iran and that was their cultural world. Of course you will not accept this either. All this sort of arguments will get us no where, we need to to be scientific and there should be something that is clear and encyclopedic without causing such nuisances. For example if a poet is considered a national poet or an important poet, then it should be in its own article (like Nizami who is shared by four countries and the article reflects it). But the concept of "national" implies nationality/citizenship and is ambiguous. That is it is defined by citizens of a country rather than an Encyclopedia. In Tehran even, there are people that compose Azerbaijani Turkish poetry, but this can not be called Azerbaijan as a territory(there are irredentist claims). But they have composed it in Azerbaijani Turkish language. Azerbaijani Turkish literature with its own rich literature does not cause any ambiguity(except some have preferred Azerbaijani Turkic). We can not use narrow criterion and unscientific views to define the meaning of terms. This template should cause no ambiguity. If there is back and forth arguing, we should simply take a vote in Wikipedia, since I do not know if I can make myself more clear by repeating the same stuff. Virtually all templates I have seen refer to a specific language and the ones that don't will have some of these contradictions and should be changed. I believe I made the contradictions clear enough keeping in mind that primary goal is writing an Encyclopedia that should not be ambiguous. The problem of territorial integrity is important for citizens of Iran just like it is for other regional countries and we can not have Iranian Azerbaijan or Khorasan be mentioned outside of Iran or under another country's name in a template.-- Nepaheshgar ( talk)
Nepaheshgar, from what I understand, this whole discussion stems from your perception of 'Azerbaijan' and 'Azerbaijani' as merely a georgraphical characteristic. Well, it is not. Whether it is common in some areas and not so common in others, it is a term that describes a single ethnic group that happen to live on both sides of the international border. 'Azerbaijani literature' means literature that belongs to Azeris, Iranian and Caucasian ones, and not literature that belongs to the Republic of Azerbaijan. P.S. Please don't call it 'Caucus'; it's 'Caucasus'. 'Caucus' in English means something completely different. Parishan ( talk) 00:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Nepaheshgar, I am confused. What is it exactly that you disagree with, then? And if possible, could you please summarise your arguments in one short paragraph? Parishan ( talk) 04:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Guys , specially GM and Parishan please comment on Alborz's proposal for name change to give the template a clear non-controversial definition so territorial integrity, scientific definition and diversity of regions are respected. I note that Parishan said: "You certainly cannot take away what is Persian from Azerbaijani literature, as up until the mid-20th century the Persian language was an inalienable part of Azerbaijani literature and culture; to such great extent that local poets who wrote in Persian have always been regarded by Azerbaijanis as national poets.". But at the same time all literature templates are tied with language and in authoritative Encyclopedias, the classics will obviously come under Persian literature since the term Azerbaijani literature was not used by them, no one in their own time used it(they constantly did use Adabiyaat parsi and nazm-e-dari and etc.) and they wrote in Persian where-as Azerbaijani literature means Azerbaijani-Turkic literature. So what Parishan has commented on in my view is a later ethno-nationalistic reintrepretation of history of the region for boosting national sentiments and it is not scientific (fine for outstide of an Encyclopedia but not scientific). Iranica, Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam and virtually all authoritative sources state those classics under Persian literature. At the same time in the spirit of compromise, these will not be removed (will be left as it was in the former template) but territorial claims made on Iran and also the fact that there are Talysh, Assyrian, Kurdish, Armenian, Persian (why should one language have primacy specially if majority have written in Persian) literature from Iranian Azerbaijan or Khorasan/Iraq/Tehran will be resolved. Why won't they be removed? So Alborz has given a precise meaning to a vague term. Note this is a simple template, so lets have a compromise where everyone is happy(will get almost what they want). If it goes to WP:RM, then it will be tied with language to cause no ambiguity like the majority of other literature templates, Encyclopedias and virtually all such templates in Wikipedia (consider if it is what you really want). Specially given two arbcomms where these sort of nationalistic viewpoints are less tolerated and thankfully there are admins like Moreschi/dab (may they stay in wikipedia for a long time) who would take a scientific viewpoint in a heartbeat rather than names that can cause controversies. So I expect comments on Alborz's version rather than long intrepretations on history and literature and etc., which will get us no where. His version seems to satify both sides(except Turkic can be put for Turkish). I expect comments on Albor'z version rather than intrepretations of the vague former name which I disagree with. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 15:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I think it is not a good title. First of all TurkISH means Anatolian/Istanbuli Turkic language. If you wanted to stress the Turkicness of Azerbaijani language it still should have been Azerbaijani TurkIC. Secondly most of these figures wrote in Persian rather than Turkic, before the Panturkists in the rep. Azerbaijan put a de facto ban on the usage of Persian.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 08:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Sayat-Nova is an Armenian poet and ashik -- Melikov Memmed ( talk) 06:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Here
[6] , an editor's point of view is :"I do not like double standards. If you write Azerbaijani Turkic literature, write Tatar Turkic, Turkish Turkic, Uzbek Turkish, Turkmen Turkic.If it is no problem and I agree on the Azerbaijani Turkic".
I think such comparison does not make sense because 1- There is no template about none of above mentioned laguages at all (except Turkish) (as shown in
[7] ) , and "Turkey Turkic" is equivalent to "Turkish" , but Azerbajani Turkic is not Azeri , because it both means Azeri people and Azeri laguage , but Turkish is only a language 2-An
old Azeri has been used in history that is not important now , but when talking about history , and building [historical] templates , that is important 3-None of the above mentioned nations , I mean Tatars , Turkmens and Turkey did not have an extended local literature before
Turkification , but Azeri nation does have a strong history of non-Turkic literature before and after of changing language to Turkic .--
Alborz Fallah (
talk) 14:25, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Alborz means that they were "Azerbaijani" in the old sense (spoke Iranian/Persian languages) which is exactly equivalent to Iranian/Persian ethnic group. So they were not separate from other Persian/Iranian culture/groups. There was no separate "Azerbaijani" ethnic group then from the wider Iranian ethnic group, specially one that spoke a Turkic language. So that is why those authors cannot be "Azerbaijani"(its primary definition now has changed) because people from Azerbaijan (then) were speaking Iranian languages and not Turkic. So to claim them today as part of modern Azerbaijani ethnic group is anachronistically giving them a Turkic language, which they did not have. There was either Iranian or Turk. Nothing in between. In the region (Muslim at least) there are now mainly Iranian, Semitic and Turkic languages. The cross-influence has been much. Modern Azerbaijan falls right in between these two groups and so it is a mixture (the Persian cultural heritage is heavier, but the language is Turkic). However, now the people are very mixed together. Someone who speaks Turkish could have been speaking an Iranian language fifth generations ago and similarly someone that speaks an Iranian language could have been speaking Turkish 10 generations ago. Azerbaijani-Turkic is correct name since everyone in Iran calls the language "Torki/Turki" and it was called Torki until the 20th century in the republic of Azerbaijan. The Pahlavids did not call it Turki and that is simply wrong information. It was the Soviets who changed it from Turki to Azerbaijani. It has been called Turki centuries before that. It has never been called "Azerbaijani" until the 20th century. If you had asked Fizuli or someone write me a "poem" in Azerbaijani, they would be puzzled. Similarly if you asked someone in the 10th century about "Azerbaijani literature", they would not know what it is (it might have been the Old Azari Language whose speakers are ethnically identified as Persians by contemporary sources of that time). Because it is anachronistic. They would know what is Persian literature. They would also know Turkish literature (at least from the 14h century in the area). Right now, Azerbaijanis primarily definition is a Turkish language with heavy Persian influence. Literature templates are based upon language and not geography. That is why Fizuli of Iraq or Hasan Oglu of Khorasan is mentioned here but someone like Qatran who spoke Iranic languages (see Old Azari under language of Tabriz) did not. It is not even based on ethnicity, since someone like Nasimi would be an Arab (Seyyed) and someone like Ismail I would be a Kurd. Specially for the 10th century (Qatran) where the area was not even Turkish speaking and in the 10th century, there was no unique Azerbaijani-Turkic language. There are other people in Azerbaijan like Tats, Talysh, Kurds.. who are Iranian speakers and whose language existen then. But the issue is that the people that belong to the Azerbaijani ethnic group has gravitated towards a Turkic identity(specifically more after the collapse of the Soviet Union), so one cannot anachronistically claim people who were Western Persians like Qatran or had Persian culture, to have been the modern people in Azerbaijan (in the republic) who basically consider themselves Turks. Qatran was not a Turk. Nezami was a Kurd and had Persian cultural heritage. So to claim these as Azerbaijanis today is to claim them to be Turks equivalently since the Azerbaijani republic identifies itself as a Turkic nation. They are free to do what they want and I have no problem with whatever they choose. But without the Persian/Iranian heritage of that same geography, they do not have a golden age of culture (which Georgians and Armenians do, but there is no golden age of culture in Turkic culture in the Caucasus). I personally support your view, that Azerbaijanis are Iranians, however, this is not the view of the majority of the republic of Azerbaijan who consider themselves Turks and part of the Turkic world (and as I said, they are free to do whatever they want with this). Scholars also identify and classify based on linguistic criterions. So until your view that Azeris are not Turks becomes the predominant view, then one needs to respect the majority and also the scholarly sources. We need to keep Wikpedia away from nationalism, nationalistic sources and also Soviet concepts of geographical identity (which is rejected by admins in Wikipedia and Western scholar). Admins are well aware of these issues, specially anti-Nationalist admins know these issues well. For example Urartu are not Armenians but Armenians can be partially descendant from Urartu (the substrate is proven). Similarly, the Iranian speaking Persians of the 10th century in Azerbaijan like Qatran are not the modern Azerbaijani-Turkic speakers, but Azerbaijani-Turkic speakers are partially descendant of these. Since at the time, there was no concept of nation state, one needs to classify authors by their culture (which is the one that is well known), then ethnicity/language (which might not be known for a good deal of authors), not by modern geographical/state definitions. So Salah al-Din Ayyubi is not an Iraqi. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 15:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi
Turkmen is the more archaic Oghuz language, but as far as I have heared, Azerbaijani-Turkish and Anatolian Turkish are almost mutually intelligble (I might be wrong). Azerbaijani-Turkish is still classified as Turkish. Well if you think Azeris are not Turks, you should argue this in the Azerbaijan article. As you notice it says: "is one of the six independent Turkic states in the Caucasus region of Eurasia. ". There are other articles. For example see Turkic peoples where Azeris are again considered Turkic. I have had this argument with Azerbaijanis from the Caucasus in Wikipedia and overwhelming majority of the Caucasus ones actually are hostile to Iranians (let alone consider themselves Iranians). The general sense one gets reading Azeri media is that your(our) viewpoint is minority and majority of people in Azerbaijan as well the countries authorities consider themselves a Turkic people. Anyhow, from a scholarly point of view, the Azerbaijanis of the Caucasus (and Iran) are considered a Turkic people. I even disagree with this, but until the primary definition is changed, then there is no point in arguing. Look, I even go to the Azerbaijani article on Atropatene and they insert Turks there 2300 years ago. This is the current widespread mentality. Look at the article on Scythians, they consider that Turk too. All of these go against mainstream scholarly information. Look at the article on Medes in Azerbaijani wikipedia, against it is called: "mövcud olmuş qədim türk dövləti." [8]. If I was a mean person, I would even write a whole article on this nonsense, but what I hope to demonstrate that Azeris are not only interested in being Turks, but also Turkifying Medes, Scythians, Atropatene and of course Nezami. (Note I am talking about the current state of these articles right now). Now with the internet, one cannot hide the truth. So an average person from Caucasus Azerbaijan will probably learn English and then check the English article on Medes. So I think these things need to be fixed first.
As per that site you showed (I was emailed it about couple of weeks ago or more), except for Chelkowski, Van Ruymbeke, Talatoff, Francois de Blois who have consistently called Nezami a Persian poet (and never have used anything else), the rest of the authors are not Nezami studies expert. So they have no weight in Wikipedia WP:weight. It is like quoting a political scientist about Nezami or a mathematician about Nezami or etc. Also there are other authors that consider using the term "Azerbaijani" for him as political nature, where-as non-exist when he is called a Persian poet. Also no doubt Nezami had influence on Azerbaijani-Turkic literature, but so did even Hafez (for example Nasimi was influenced more by Hafiz than Nezami) or Ferdowsi or etc. Anyhow, on Nezami himself, he writes that نظامی که نظم دری کار اوست دری نظم کردن سزاوار اوست So he calls his own work "Persian poetry". If he had called "Azerbaijani poetry", then that would be an argument.
Now the others source, Rypka is also outdated source, but consistent in calling Nezami Persian literature. He is just note sure about Nezami's father, which is fine (but then states clearly that Persian culture was dominant and he is awaiting a study of Ganja.. he also uses "probably" that the population was not different, however new sources clearly state population was speaking Persian or Iranian language..), but he lived under USSR and his work on Nezami needs to be looked with the critical eye. Anyhow he died in 1968 and now 42 years later there are new sources. There is now new sources like Nozhat al-Majales which means that the regional literature in the 11th/12th century has to be rewritten. At the time of Rypka maybe three poets were known from Ganja, but now there are 24 from Ganja alone at that time. Not a single USSR has referenced this work, because its critical edition was published in 1987. But for example, someone like Francois de Blois refers to Nozhat al-Majales it in his book. Now the rest of the sources: for example Audrey Alstdat, Brenda Shaffer, random websites and the rest of the authors quoted have not written a single study on Nezami or do not even know Persian. Some like Shaffer even claim that Khusraw the Sassanid King was ancestors of the Turks of Caucasus. So it carries no scholarly weight. They have no weight for Nezami studies. Or Sakina Berenjian for example attributes something wrong to Shafaq, Safa and Foruzanfar which does not exist in those pages (I have those scanned in case someone needs it). It doesn't exist. Anyhow her book is not bad, but she is clear that the language of Azerbaijan was Old Azari (something you won't find in Azerbaijani wikipedia). Shafaq, Foruzanfar, Safa did not coin the term she is attributing to them. I can send you the scanned copy of those exact pages (and 5 pages back and forth between them). Iranica and Encylopeadia of Islam also clear he is a Persian poet. If it is about making long lists, anyone can do a google search and find sources: [9] (here is a list 5 times long as the one should showed that state Persian poet).
Even the geographical claim in my opinion is not correct. If you look at Nezami's work, his region is called "Arran" and Azerbaijan proper is NW Iran (in his own work). But putting aside that argument, when praising three different rulers(Shirvanshah, Ahmadilis and Eldiguzids), he calls them the ruler of "Persia/Iran". This is the sense of geography Nezami had of himself. So Arran/Sherwan/Azerbaijan were really part of the larger Iranian cultural world. He calls the Eldiguzids as the Shah of Molk-e-Ajam. He calls the Shirvanshah "Shah-e Iran", he calls the land of Ahmadilis (Atabekan-e-Maragha) as part of Iran. Note the praises of these rulers as Kings of Persia, Kings of Iran, Kings of Molk-e-Ajam (Persian realm) is not only by Nezami. Khaqani for example uses Iran for his geographical area.
On your statement: "that the Nizami of the Persian culture, but why conceal the fact of what role he plays for the Azerbaijani literature, and that he means everything to Azerbaijan". I do not conceal the first part. He has influenced non-Persian literatures such as Ottoman Turkish, Chagatay Turkish, Azerbaijani_Turkish, Pashto, Kurdish, Gurani, Baluchi, Sindhi, Urdu, Hindi and etc. As for "he means everything to Azerbaijan", in wikipedia one must use scientific terms. Some nation building had occured and now even the average Azerbaijani does not want to accept that Nezami is "Persian literature" (like he states himself). I believe that we should strive(doesn't mean we have reached) to the level that only God should mean everything in the true sense. Nezami was a humble servant of God. He was great cultural figure but he always considered himself nothing compared to God and his Prophets. However, if what you state is the case, then why not teach the Persian language in Azerbaijan for the masses (not just a few scholars), so they can get acquainted with 90% of the works of the Muslims of that region who left their mark in Persian? As someone that is studies Persian literature, I can tell you the poems of Khaqani and Nezami are among the harder ones to translate. So access to the original means access to the pure gold. The country of Azerbaijan is not going to find its identity through Russian literature, Western literature or modern Anatolian Turkish literature. It will just be a copy cat. It will need a understanding of the Persian language to find its identity and then comeup with original thought in its current language that has its basis in that geographical location. Or else, it is disconnected from 90% of the literature of the Muslims that lived there before the 19th century.
However, all these asides, I do agree with you on one thing. Current Iran did not do much and Turkey took its place. Arran/Sherwan (wether under Iranian languages and later under Turkish languages) historically have been part of Iran and Iranian culture. The population there has been small though, so a larger country can shape it under its influence (USSR/Russia and now Turkey). On the Karabagh war and 1918 war, the average Iranian wants to see complete peace between Armenians and Azeris. This is the Iranian mentality. We do not want these people fightings each other. Just like the Iran-Iraq war, which was a stupid war. I can clearly state, the average Iranian is the only regional person that is not against either country (even though some groups are supporting separatism in Iran). But the average Iranian, looks at the whole issue, and does not want war. At least this is my mentality. Now what would be Nezami's mentality (which he means everything to you as you said):
Here is a Ghazal
این خرابات مغان است در آن رندانند
شاهد و شمع و شراب و شکر و نای و سرود
هرچه در جملهی آفاق در آنجا حاضر
مؤمن و ارمنی و گبر و نصارا و یهود
گر تو خواهی که دم از صحبت ایشان بزنی
خاک پای همه شو تا که بیابی مقصود
My translation:
This is the ruin tavern of the Magians, and in it are love-rebels (Rend is a difficult word to translate due to its multiple meanings) for God
Witnesses, Candles, Wine, Sugar, Reed and Beautiful Music (these needs to be taken symbolically for the most part)
Whatever that exists in the horizon is present there
Muslims, Armenians, Zoroastrians, Christrians and Jews
If you want to be allowed in the ruin of the Magian (divine wisdom)
Become a dust upon the feet of all of these people, so that you may reach the goal. (Zanjani, Barat. “Ahwal o Athar o SharH Makhzan ol_Asraar Nezami Ganjavi”, Tehran University Publications, 2005, pg 18)
Now this might be impossible for us average people, but as you can see, this is the mentality of Nezami.
However, you are correct, and I do not like politics. But Iran has done a completely horrible job (and we do not have a good regime) in trying to re-establish cultural contacts with Caucasus Azerbaijan/Sherwan. Although one cannot ignore pan-Turkist and Soviet obstacles placed on its path. Despite the fact that at least from Sherwanshah(900 A.D.) to Qajar, and in the Sassanid, Parthian times as well, this region has been connected to the rest of the Iranian world. On this note, I am upset, but until there is a good Iranian government, I do not think the average person like myself can do much. However, even in Wikipedia, despite the fact that the Azerbaijani name for Nezami is anachronistic, I have not opposed it( I will only oppose it if there is an attempt to excise him of Persian culture). Or on Caucasian Albania, I was the only user that said it is okay. (I did not support it on Atropatene due to the article in Az Wikipedia). However, I am vehemently against assigning Nezami to anything but Persian literature (which is what he calls it) or downplaying his Persian cultural heritage (as just limited to "oh he happens to write in Persian" which ignores how he used the language and also the themes of his story being based in Persian culture). His influence in the region and on other literatures is noted.
Since wikipedia is not WP:forum, WP:soapbox, feel free to send me an email here: [10]. Usually, I do not like to violate WP:forum, but you were one of the few Caucasian Azerbaijanis I suprisingly did not see any hostility from. I did not mean to insult you by saying Azeris are Turks, I said that is currently the widespread belief and is reflected in some of the articles (I personally disagree with this definition however the rules are the rules). Just to summarize, literature templates are based on language (not region) (for example the Khorasani Hasan Oglu is included or Iraqi Fizuli). And it is better to use the widespread scholarly definitions on the type of literature a poet belongs too (when in doubt consult with the specialist sources in that area) or what a group is..even if we disagree with it . Thank you. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Medieval period is between 5th–15th century (see Middle Ages). Some of those poets should be moved to Modern or other group/section. Does Medieval have a different period in Caucasus/Middle East region? -- Zyma ( talk) 19:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)