I see that this template was created just a while ago. The creator had chosen the German "Antifaschistische Aktion" emblem with the modification that the black flag has been swapped in front of the red flag (indicating an anarchist POV?). I think it would be better to use a general anti-Nazi logo altogether since this should be about general anti-fascism.
The contents in the template also seem to have an anarchist POV, as it lists "anti-nationalism" as a core tenent for example. But anti-fascists include Italian Roman Catholic partisans such as Brigate Fiamme Verdi, too. This template needs a lot of fixing to avoid WP:SYNTH and to fix WP:NPOV. -- Pudeo ( talk) 15:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
In the previous section,
Pudeo said The contents in the template also seem to have an anarchist POV, as it lists "anti-nationalism" as a core tenent for example. But anti-fascists include Italian Roman Catholic partisans such as Brigate Fiamme Verdi, too. This template needs a lot of fixing to avoid WP:SYNTH and to fix WP:NPOV.
I don't know if I'd call this an anarchist POV, but rather a narrow focus. I think we should:
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 15:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Ziko: While both the points in your edit summary are correct, I'm not sure that either is a good reason not to consider the Iron Front an anti-fascist group, or not to link to it here. A group can be both anti-fascist and anti-communist (certainly anti-Communist), and anti-fascist groups can be opposed to other anti-fascist groups (just as no one hates socialists as much as other socialists, and so on). As such I think it's worth discussing this more broadly. My view is that navboxes and sidebars should be fairly broad in scope; the purpose is to direct readers to relevant articles, and readers will naturally attach more weight to the more nuanced content of those articles than to any conclusions that might be drawn from the sidebar itself. This means that the possible confusion caused by including a possibly marginal case like this is probably outweighed by the benefits of providing more comprehensive coverage. – Arms & Hearts ( talk) 21:08, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Have reverted to version by Jaredscribe as Ziko position seems to be the minority one. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 13:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, @ Bobfrombrockley: and @ Arms & Hearts: I've heard from many antifascists who are disappointed by the misappropriation Three Arrows to further an anarcho-communist political agenda that attacks liberal democracy. Removing discussion of the Iron Front from antifascism would be to add insult to injury, and strikes me as intellectually dishonest. Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Now removed again by Liz on grounds of being defunct for 90 years, whereas other (less noteworthy imho) defunct groups are recent, i.e. she assumes the template should be contemporary not historical. I propose a more useful sidebar would be more historical. See proposal below. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
As per earlier discussion above, I am proposing a complete revamp here: /info/en/?search=Template:Anti-fascism_sidebar No doubt needs format cleaning etc (first template I've worked on) and am open to additions and removals. Feel free to edit there. What do people think? BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Anti-fascism is defined on its page as this:
Thus from this definition, anti-fascism is actually a very broad spectrum - you can have anarchist and communist anti-fascists but you can also have liberal and conservative anti-fascists. But the sidebar largely focuses on "revolutionary" anti-fascism. By this I mean the definitions from Michael Seidman on the anti-fascism page:
So we can see that revolutionary anti-fascism is that of anarchists and communists and counterrevolutionary anti-fascism is that of liberals, social democrats and conservatives. Both are types of anti-fascism but they are distinct (read on the page for more).
However, this sidebar focuses exclusively on revolutionary anti-fascism. It defines anti-fascist ideas as:
Where do liberal and conservative anti-fascists fit into that? Seidman identifies Winston Churchill as an anti-fascist, yet he was a conservative, pro-capitalist and imperialist. So how does that fit on the list?
Indeed, under the inclusive definition of anti-facism, this list of tactics is woefully incomplete:
How about strategic bombing in WW2? Massed tank assaults? Dogfights? The page for anti-fascism notes how WW2 was conceived of as an anti-fascist struggle by the major allied powers and thus the tactics employed in WW2 are, logically, anti-fascist tactics. This list largely refers to the actions of black bloc groups, anarchist organisations, protestors and a few left-wing governments (such as the Spanish Popular Front). It would be fine if it was about anarchist militants but it's not, it's about anti-fascism.
The problem is summed up thusly: anti-fascism, as defined on the page Anti-fascism used as broad, inclusive definition. The sidebar uses a narrow, exclusive definition that seems to focus on the American group Antifa and other affiliated groups. Thus I propose either:
The only part that really reflects the inclusive definition is the Literature section.
I also propose that the Organisations and Movements section also be edited to reflect the more inclusive definition - if Antifa count as anti-fascist, then I'm fairly certain the United States Army do as well given how many fascists they shot in WW2. The current list seems to be reflective of the exclusive definition. Sdio7 ( talk) 20:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I have now made the changes proposed above and not opposed. Other editors please do revert/amend/discuss as appropriate. It is my first major edit to a sidebar, so I hope I've done it right. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 16:46, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Have started adding it to relevant pages - will finish later (unless anyone else wants to help!) but might need to check acheives consensus? BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed that, as of right now, the only Asian resistance movement of World War II that has been included is the Burmese Anti-Fascist Organisation. And I was wondering if it would be worth including the other resistance movements that opposed the Empire of Japan. Of course, I understand that many of these units would be better defined as " anti-imperialist", rather than specifically anti-fascist, which is why I thought I should bring it up here first, in order to build consensus on the matter.-- Grnrchst ( talk) 14:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
I see that this template was created just a while ago. The creator had chosen the German "Antifaschistische Aktion" emblem with the modification that the black flag has been swapped in front of the red flag (indicating an anarchist POV?). I think it would be better to use a general anti-Nazi logo altogether since this should be about general anti-fascism.
The contents in the template also seem to have an anarchist POV, as it lists "anti-nationalism" as a core tenent for example. But anti-fascists include Italian Roman Catholic partisans such as Brigate Fiamme Verdi, too. This template needs a lot of fixing to avoid WP:SYNTH and to fix WP:NPOV. -- Pudeo ( talk) 15:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
In the previous section,
Pudeo said The contents in the template also seem to have an anarchist POV, as it lists "anti-nationalism" as a core tenent for example. But anti-fascists include Italian Roman Catholic partisans such as Brigate Fiamme Verdi, too. This template needs a lot of fixing to avoid WP:SYNTH and to fix WP:NPOV.
I don't know if I'd call this an anarchist POV, but rather a narrow focus. I think we should:
BobFromBrockley ( talk) 15:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Ziko: While both the points in your edit summary are correct, I'm not sure that either is a good reason not to consider the Iron Front an anti-fascist group, or not to link to it here. A group can be both anti-fascist and anti-communist (certainly anti-Communist), and anti-fascist groups can be opposed to other anti-fascist groups (just as no one hates socialists as much as other socialists, and so on). As such I think it's worth discussing this more broadly. My view is that navboxes and sidebars should be fairly broad in scope; the purpose is to direct readers to relevant articles, and readers will naturally attach more weight to the more nuanced content of those articles than to any conclusions that might be drawn from the sidebar itself. This means that the possible confusion caused by including a possibly marginal case like this is probably outweighed by the benefits of providing more comprehensive coverage. – Arms & Hearts ( talk) 21:08, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Have reverted to version by Jaredscribe as Ziko position seems to be the minority one. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 13:23, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, @ Bobfrombrockley: and @ Arms & Hearts: I've heard from many antifascists who are disappointed by the misappropriation Three Arrows to further an anarcho-communist political agenda that attacks liberal democracy. Removing discussion of the Iron Front from antifascism would be to add insult to injury, and strikes me as intellectually dishonest. Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Now removed again by Liz on grounds of being defunct for 90 years, whereas other (less noteworthy imho) defunct groups are recent, i.e. she assumes the template should be contemporary not historical. I propose a more useful sidebar would be more historical. See proposal below. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:54, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
As per earlier discussion above, I am proposing a complete revamp here: /info/en/?search=Template:Anti-fascism_sidebar No doubt needs format cleaning etc (first template I've worked on) and am open to additions and removals. Feel free to edit there. What do people think? BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Anti-fascism is defined on its page as this:
Thus from this definition, anti-fascism is actually a very broad spectrum - you can have anarchist and communist anti-fascists but you can also have liberal and conservative anti-fascists. But the sidebar largely focuses on "revolutionary" anti-fascism. By this I mean the definitions from Michael Seidman on the anti-fascism page:
So we can see that revolutionary anti-fascism is that of anarchists and communists and counterrevolutionary anti-fascism is that of liberals, social democrats and conservatives. Both are types of anti-fascism but they are distinct (read on the page for more).
However, this sidebar focuses exclusively on revolutionary anti-fascism. It defines anti-fascist ideas as:
Where do liberal and conservative anti-fascists fit into that? Seidman identifies Winston Churchill as an anti-fascist, yet he was a conservative, pro-capitalist and imperialist. So how does that fit on the list?
Indeed, under the inclusive definition of anti-facism, this list of tactics is woefully incomplete:
How about strategic bombing in WW2? Massed tank assaults? Dogfights? The page for anti-fascism notes how WW2 was conceived of as an anti-fascist struggle by the major allied powers and thus the tactics employed in WW2 are, logically, anti-fascist tactics. This list largely refers to the actions of black bloc groups, anarchist organisations, protestors and a few left-wing governments (such as the Spanish Popular Front). It would be fine if it was about anarchist militants but it's not, it's about anti-fascism.
The problem is summed up thusly: anti-fascism, as defined on the page Anti-fascism used as broad, inclusive definition. The sidebar uses a narrow, exclusive definition that seems to focus on the American group Antifa and other affiliated groups. Thus I propose either:
The only part that really reflects the inclusive definition is the Literature section.
I also propose that the Organisations and Movements section also be edited to reflect the more inclusive definition - if Antifa count as anti-fascist, then I'm fairly certain the United States Army do as well given how many fascists they shot in WW2. The current list seems to be reflective of the exclusive definition. Sdio7 ( talk) 20:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I have now made the changes proposed above and not opposed. Other editors please do revert/amend/discuss as appropriate. It is my first major edit to a sidebar, so I hope I've done it right. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 16:46, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Have started adding it to relevant pages - will finish later (unless anyone else wants to help!) but might need to check acheives consensus? BobFromBrockley ( talk) 17:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
I've noticed that, as of right now, the only Asian resistance movement of World War II that has been included is the Burmese Anti-Fascist Organisation. And I was wondering if it would be worth including the other resistance movements that opposed the Empire of Japan. Of course, I understand that many of these units would be better defined as " anti-imperialist", rather than specifically anti-fascist, which is why I thought I should bring it up here first, in order to build consensus on the matter.-- Grnrchst ( talk) 14:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)