This template is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale.
Importance
Yay! I love that we will have a template but I hate that it rates "importance". Either one is notable and should be included in an encyclopedia or one is not. Can we eliminate that rating?
SusunW (
talk) 15:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)reply
It's customary for wikiProjects to have an importance rating. I agree with you to an extent though, there's a lot of blurry ground and subjective opinion in assessment at time. Eventually this will applied to all women articles. Somebody like
John Carter and
Ser Amantio di Nicolao might have to set up the categories and apply it though!♦
Dr. Blofeld 16:49, 19 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Like Thank you
Redrose64. To me it is insulting. It is like saying the subject is worthy of note, but not really and somehow reeks of bias.
SusunW (
talk) 22:13, 29 September 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have removed the importance rating from this template.
sst✈(discuss) 09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Class
Why doesn't this banner support article assessment? I get not supporting importance, but surely quality needs to be? Headbomb {
talk /
contribs /
physics /
books} 19:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Nevermind, this was caused by a Yobot bug who used Greek capital Beta instead of a Latin B. Headbomb {
talk /
contribs /
physics /
books} 19:47, 20 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I do not see any discussion of the image changed with
this diff. It replaces an image widely used on the women's projects with a stereotypical westernized image. Can the previous image please be restored?
Montanabw(talk) 05:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I just noticed the change today too and don't like it at all.
SusunW (
talk) 07:03, 2 November 2016 (UTC)reply
So can a template editor please change it back? I don't have the ability to do so...
Montanabw(talk) 09:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Actually, I did it intentionally because it was a genericized image whereas the previous one, a painting, did not represent women globally, per WP:GLOBAL. Perhaps I should have simply gone with the female symbol? The image gets changed from time to time, and it was time for a change. If the other image is "widely used on the women's projects," then it has plenty coverage as it is.--
Kintetsubuffalo (
talk) 12:27, 4 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Actually, the image you have is a stereotypically westernized image (necklace, hairstyle, dress, etc.) and the previous one
File:Three Friends, by William H. Johnson.jpg was actually selected by the women's projects as an overall logo because is was more broad in scope! Could you kindly revert your unilateral change and take your concerns to the projects and ASK them? The people on the project really do have a fair bit of input into the image used for their project banner, I would think.
Montanabw(talk) 06:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
The change was made before the template was protected, so quite possibly Kintetsbuffalo is not a Template Editor and cannot now revert that change. I agree that the replacement image is inappropriate (though I note that the nearly-inclusive "Three Friends" doesn't include any woman who hides her hair!) But for now let's try to get the change reverted, and there can be subsequent discussion.
PamD 07:21, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Montanabw: Could you give a link to the discussion, to help any Template Editor who feels they need more evidence before reverting the change? Thanks.
PamD 07:24, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
There was no discussion, that's the point. The only discussion was here.
Montanabw(talk) 02:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I meant the discussion leading to 3 Friends being selected by the projects.
PamD 05:02, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Ah... ask
Rosiestep, I was only on the periphery and can't remember where it was or when.
Montanabw(talk) 05:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
No need unless there's further debate.
PamD 07:13, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I don't remember when the discussion took place, but I remember that it happened. A long discussion was had, various real women's photographs were tried. Ian, Dr. B. Rosie, Montana, and several others were involved. The image was changed multiple times until it was agreed to settle on this one.
SusunW (
talk) 16:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
As I recall, we initially discussed using real photographs of women, but decided that because real women are judged harshly, by their appearance, ideological stances, etc. that it was better to use a representation of women than actual women. We specifically did not want a representation which limited or in any way indicated that we were interested in only a specific type of women, i.e. not soley westernized, not solely feminist, not classist, rather an inclusive image.
SusunW (
talk) 17:18, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
That's my memory as well. I remember spending a lot of time scouring Commons trying to find an image to depict Susun's apt description. "Three Friends" seemed not only to depict "a" woman, but it depicted "women" of more than one nationality, and I liked the colors. That said, if it's time for a new image, please suggest options! :) --
Rosiestep (
talk) 17:53, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
There was no need for a new image, the problem was someone unfamiliar with this template and its history making a unilateral change to something more stereotypical.
Montanabw(talk) 03:24, 7 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Please will a Template Editor revert the undiscussed change of image to this important project template - see above. Thanks.
PamD 07:21, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for switching it back. I thought there was a fair amount of discussion about choosing the image initially. "Three Friends", by William H. Johnson isn't perfect for multiple reasons -Pam mentions one, it was painted by a man, etc.- but it is representative in other ways. That said, if anyone wants to suggest branding changes (alt image), go for it. --
Rosiestep (
talk) 14:59, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Indeed. Thanks, Jo-Jo! Consensus can change, but discussion is the key point!
Montanabw(talk) 02:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
This template is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale.
Importance
Yay! I love that we will have a template but I hate that it rates "importance". Either one is notable and should be included in an encyclopedia or one is not. Can we eliminate that rating?
SusunW (
talk) 15:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)reply
It's customary for wikiProjects to have an importance rating. I agree with you to an extent though, there's a lot of blurry ground and subjective opinion in assessment at time. Eventually this will applied to all women articles. Somebody like
John Carter and
Ser Amantio di Nicolao might have to set up the categories and apply it though!♦
Dr. Blofeld 16:49, 19 August 2015 (UTC)reply
Like Thank you
Redrose64. To me it is insulting. It is like saying the subject is worthy of note, but not really and somehow reeks of bias.
SusunW (
talk) 22:13, 29 September 2015 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have removed the importance rating from this template.
sst✈(discuss) 09:27, 15 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Class
Why doesn't this banner support article assessment? I get not supporting importance, but surely quality needs to be? Headbomb {
talk /
contribs /
physics /
books} 19:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Nevermind, this was caused by a Yobot bug who used Greek capital Beta instead of a Latin B. Headbomb {
talk /
contribs /
physics /
books} 19:47, 20 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I do not see any discussion of the image changed with
this diff. It replaces an image widely used on the women's projects with a stereotypical westernized image. Can the previous image please be restored?
Montanabw(talk) 05:36, 2 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I just noticed the change today too and don't like it at all.
SusunW (
talk) 07:03, 2 November 2016 (UTC)reply
So can a template editor please change it back? I don't have the ability to do so...
Montanabw(talk) 09:21, 4 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Actually, I did it intentionally because it was a genericized image whereas the previous one, a painting, did not represent women globally, per WP:GLOBAL. Perhaps I should have simply gone with the female symbol? The image gets changed from time to time, and it was time for a change. If the other image is "widely used on the women's projects," then it has plenty coverage as it is.--
Kintetsubuffalo (
talk) 12:27, 4 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Actually, the image you have is a stereotypically westernized image (necklace, hairstyle, dress, etc.) and the previous one
File:Three Friends, by William H. Johnson.jpg was actually selected by the women's projects as an overall logo because is was more broad in scope! Could you kindly revert your unilateral change and take your concerns to the projects and ASK them? The people on the project really do have a fair bit of input into the image used for their project banner, I would think.
Montanabw(talk) 06:23, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
The change was made before the template was protected, so quite possibly Kintetsbuffalo is not a Template Editor and cannot now revert that change. I agree that the replacement image is inappropriate (though I note that the nearly-inclusive "Three Friends" doesn't include any woman who hides her hair!) But for now let's try to get the change reverted, and there can be subsequent discussion.
PamD 07:21, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Montanabw: Could you give a link to the discussion, to help any Template Editor who feels they need more evidence before reverting the change? Thanks.
PamD 07:24, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
There was no discussion, that's the point. The only discussion was here.
Montanabw(talk) 02:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I meant the discussion leading to 3 Friends being selected by the projects.
PamD 05:02, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Ah... ask
Rosiestep, I was only on the periphery and can't remember where it was or when.
Montanabw(talk) 05:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
No need unless there's further debate.
PamD 07:13, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
I don't remember when the discussion took place, but I remember that it happened. A long discussion was had, various real women's photographs were tried. Ian, Dr. B. Rosie, Montana, and several others were involved. The image was changed multiple times until it was agreed to settle on this one.
SusunW (
talk) 16:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
As I recall, we initially discussed using real photographs of women, but decided that because real women are judged harshly, by their appearance, ideological stances, etc. that it was better to use a representation of women than actual women. We specifically did not want a representation which limited or in any way indicated that we were interested in only a specific type of women, i.e. not soley westernized, not solely feminist, not classist, rather an inclusive image.
SusunW (
talk) 17:18, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
That's my memory as well. I remember spending a lot of time scouring Commons trying to find an image to depict Susun's apt description. "Three Friends" seemed not only to depict "a" woman, but it depicted "women" of more than one nationality, and I liked the colors. That said, if it's time for a new image, please suggest options! :) --
Rosiestep (
talk) 17:53, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply
There was no need for a new image, the problem was someone unfamiliar with this template and its history making a unilateral change to something more stereotypical.
Montanabw(talk) 03:24, 7 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Please will a Template Editor revert the undiscussed change of image to this important project template - see above. Thanks.
PamD 07:21, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for switching it back. I thought there was a fair amount of discussion about choosing the image initially. "Three Friends", by William H. Johnson isn't perfect for multiple reasons -Pam mentions one, it was painted by a man, etc.- but it is representative in other ways. That said, if anyone wants to suggest branding changes (alt image), go for it. --
Rosiestep (
talk) 14:59, 5 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Indeed. Thanks, Jo-Jo! Consensus can change, but discussion is the key point!
Montanabw(talk) 02:47, 6 November 2016 (UTC)reply