This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
User en template. |
|
Template:User en is permanently
protected from editing because it is a
heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
consensus, editors may use {{
edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Any contributor may edit the template's
sandbox. This template does not have a
testcases subpage. You can create the testcases subpage
here.
|
I believe Babel mentions that if you have a rather outstanding vocabulary then to just say Native. But this doesn't make sense if the user isn't a native speaker. So we should address "or has language abilities comparable to that of a native speaker" I believe. Please leave a message on this talk page and if its too big of a deal we can vote on it. Redwolf24 09:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, it would be so much better if we would bring back the en-4 template. I, for one, feel somewhat dishonest using the en-N template in my user page. I'm not a native speaker, but I do believe that I'm able to contribute in a near-native level (yeah, I know, what modesty...). It would be more accurate to have a template that states exactly that, with no possible misunderstandings about anyone being a native or a very, very good speaker of the language. I'm inclined to agree with Angr in the sense that there's always a je-ne-sais-pas-quoi about a native. Sometimes it's not about fluency, but rather about how "naturally" one is able to use the language. Maybe that's not that important given that in Wikipedia we all communicate through written language. But if the problem was what it stated, why not bring it back correcting the wording, as suggested above by Angr? Regards, Redux 19:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
It's been done. ABCD took care of it. Thanks to him. Redux 05:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I have protected this page due to the large number of pornographic images that were placed here over the last hour. Obviously I cannot place the protected template at the head of the article, so I am just making a mention here. I will unprotect some time tomorrow. Rje 01:08, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Time are changing, that's all I can say. If we don't adapt, we are going to be overwhelmed by vandals. However, all I support at the moment is the protection of the EN Babel tags, as they are the most visible user tags on the Wikipedia. I will not directly oppose to broader actions, though. -- Sn0wflake 13:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Following an attack by a vandal, I have now protected the entire series of templates for the German language. Just thought I should announce this here. Redux 20:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I have downgraded the protection from full to semi. Angr/ talk 13:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed recently that the language cody was a wikilink to the German language in the Template:User de template, and decided that it was a good idea. Especially for less common languages, which might not be recognized here on en. I've been adding it to other templates as I saw them. I've been unable to do it to this one, for reasons that you might be able to guess. - Lethe | Talk 12:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The language templates all seem to add a Category link that points to the "User en" category. Why not call this category "English speakers" or "Users who speak English"? Ditto for "User fr" and the rest. Tim Pierce 16:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I would support such a change. - lethe talk + 02:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or should the border be darkened a bit? Could someone who has access play around with it? Wave of Mutilation
I've reverted the additions [1] by User:Myrtone86:
First off, there is no evidence of support for such a highly-visible change.
Secondly, the idea described in the text about the definition of a native speaker does not seem to accord with the commonly-accepted idea of "native speaker" status. Being a "native speaker of X" doesn't always mean learning X before all other languages. More importantly, if a child learns two languages simultaneously from infancy, he is a native speaker of both by the commonly-understood meaning of the term. However the text above seems to imply he is a native speaker of neither, because the "first" can't be determined!
Lastly, the intent of the templates Template:User en-m and Template:User en-f is unclear. It's not explained, but my guess is that this is to express the idea that, for example, a bilingual French-English speaker has an French-speaking mother and an English-speaking father: this would be "en-f" and "fr-m".
I object to this plan because it's seriously non-scaleable. Not everybody grows up in a household with exactly two parents, a mother and father. People learn languages from grandparents, siblings, nannies, etc., etc. Clearly we wouldn't want this level of detail in templates. I think the current system, describing anyone who learns two or more languages in childhood as simply a native speaker of all, is the most workable one.
I'll hold off a bit on nominating the en-m and en-f templates for deletion, to let User:Myrtone86 explain his/her opinion on this. -- Saforrest 23:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please add sl:Predloga:Uporabnik en. Thanks a lot. -- Eleassar my talk 13:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I wanna add this: {{{1|This [[user]] is a native speaker of [[English]].}}}.That would let users have their own text. thanks.-- Emperor Walter Humala · ( talk? · help! ) 21:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Is there any reason that this template does not use ifeq language? If there is no particular babel reasoning behind this, could that change be made? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 06:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
A very minor thing, but is there any chance the template's alphabetical categorization can be made lowercase ("en" rather than "En") so the template is listed with all the other English templates? Thanks! - Bbik ★ 19:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Every other English language level should use the Template:Languages (Except Template:User en-6, but it isn't included in the template anyway.), but I was unable to add the template into this page because the page is fully protected.
{{languages|English|en}}
~Iceshark7 17:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This template incorporates en-6. It is a separate template because since this is an English Wikipedia, other languages cannot really contribute at a professorial level. - Sox 207 21:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Sorry I didn't think of this when you were writing the doc, but could you add a parser function to the userbox like it says at
Category:Category suppression supporting templates, <includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{{categories}}}|no||[[Category:User en|{{PAGENAME}}]][[Category:User en-N|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly> this is how the includeonly tags should look. This will benefit seeing as this page is transcluded as an example on so many pages. I already added the page to this category. -
Sox
207
04:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! - Sox 207 16:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the -N category as duplicative. (And added the template to the category for ease of navigation.) - jc37 10:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
It's not a duplicate category; it's a more specific one.
Category:User en covers users from all levels of en (see the source of
Template:User en-3 as an example), while
Category:User en-N is intended to cover only users who are native speakers of English. This is customary in all language userbox templates, e.g. see
Template:User fr or any other lang template. With your change, there is now no category that exclusively covers en-N users. I am adding a request to revert
your edit.
Mxipp (
talk)
08:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
No change in semantics. New code:
{{ userbox | id-c = #6EF7A7 | id-s = 14 | id = [[English language|en]] | border-c = #6EF7A7 | info-c = #C5FCDC | info = This user is a '''[[:Category:User en-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User en|English]]'''. }}<includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{{categories}}}|no||[[Category:User en|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}} {{documentation}}</noinclude>
Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
editrequest}}
Could the template be updated to the code below:
{{userbox-level | level = | id = [[English language|en]] | info = This user is a '''[[:Category:User en-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User en|English]]'''. | usercategory = User en | usercategory2 = User en-N }}<noinclude> {{pp-template}} {{documentation}} </noinclude>
This is to change it to use the userbox-level template which is used by other similar userboxes. Thanks -- WOSlinker ( talk) 14:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} With the change to the Userbox template, the ability to opt-out of the user category was lost. This line will re-add that functionality:
nocat = {{{nocat|}}}
Can this be added?— Chowbok ☠ 23:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
"DO NOT copy the source of this userbox." doesn't comply with the Manual of Style, it should be "Do not copy the source of this userbox". I don't fully understand how the documentation template works so I apologize in advance if I'm ranting on the wrong page. -- Kris159 ( talk) 13:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The various {{ User en}} templates add pages to Category:User en as well as the specific categories. It seems rather pointless to add the pages to the parent category as well as the subcategories, especially since every user on the English Wikipedia should be able to speak English anyway. McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:10, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
The template for adding this userbox to Babel is incorrect. It should be {{Babel|en}} Rmorabia ( talk) 19:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
User en template. |
|
Template:User en is permanently
protected from editing because it is a
heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
consensus, editors may use {{
edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Any contributor may edit the template's
sandbox. This template does not have a
testcases subpage. You can create the testcases subpage
here.
|
I believe Babel mentions that if you have a rather outstanding vocabulary then to just say Native. But this doesn't make sense if the user isn't a native speaker. So we should address "or has language abilities comparable to that of a native speaker" I believe. Please leave a message on this talk page and if its too big of a deal we can vote on it. Redwolf24 09:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, it would be so much better if we would bring back the en-4 template. I, for one, feel somewhat dishonest using the en-N template in my user page. I'm not a native speaker, but I do believe that I'm able to contribute in a near-native level (yeah, I know, what modesty...). It would be more accurate to have a template that states exactly that, with no possible misunderstandings about anyone being a native or a very, very good speaker of the language. I'm inclined to agree with Angr in the sense that there's always a je-ne-sais-pas-quoi about a native. Sometimes it's not about fluency, but rather about how "naturally" one is able to use the language. Maybe that's not that important given that in Wikipedia we all communicate through written language. But if the problem was what it stated, why not bring it back correcting the wording, as suggested above by Angr? Regards, Redux 19:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
It's been done. ABCD took care of it. Thanks to him. Redux 05:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I have protected this page due to the large number of pornographic images that were placed here over the last hour. Obviously I cannot place the protected template at the head of the article, so I am just making a mention here. I will unprotect some time tomorrow. Rje 01:08, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Time are changing, that's all I can say. If we don't adapt, we are going to be overwhelmed by vandals. However, all I support at the moment is the protection of the EN Babel tags, as they are the most visible user tags on the Wikipedia. I will not directly oppose to broader actions, though. -- Sn0wflake 13:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Following an attack by a vandal, I have now protected the entire series of templates for the German language. Just thought I should announce this here. Redux 20:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I have downgraded the protection from full to semi. Angr/ talk 13:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed recently that the language cody was a wikilink to the German language in the Template:User de template, and decided that it was a good idea. Especially for less common languages, which might not be recognized here on en. I've been adding it to other templates as I saw them. I've been unable to do it to this one, for reasons that you might be able to guess. - Lethe | Talk 12:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The language templates all seem to add a Category link that points to the "User en" category. Why not call this category "English speakers" or "Users who speak English"? Ditto for "User fr" and the rest. Tim Pierce 16:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I would support such a change. - lethe talk + 02:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or should the border be darkened a bit? Could someone who has access play around with it? Wave of Mutilation
I've reverted the additions [1] by User:Myrtone86:
First off, there is no evidence of support for such a highly-visible change.
Secondly, the idea described in the text about the definition of a native speaker does not seem to accord with the commonly-accepted idea of "native speaker" status. Being a "native speaker of X" doesn't always mean learning X before all other languages. More importantly, if a child learns two languages simultaneously from infancy, he is a native speaker of both by the commonly-understood meaning of the term. However the text above seems to imply he is a native speaker of neither, because the "first" can't be determined!
Lastly, the intent of the templates Template:User en-m and Template:User en-f is unclear. It's not explained, but my guess is that this is to express the idea that, for example, a bilingual French-English speaker has an French-speaking mother and an English-speaking father: this would be "en-f" and "fr-m".
I object to this plan because it's seriously non-scaleable. Not everybody grows up in a household with exactly two parents, a mother and father. People learn languages from grandparents, siblings, nannies, etc., etc. Clearly we wouldn't want this level of detail in templates. I think the current system, describing anyone who learns two or more languages in childhood as simply a native speaker of all, is the most workable one.
I'll hold off a bit on nominating the en-m and en-f templates for deletion, to let User:Myrtone86 explain his/her opinion on this. -- Saforrest 23:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please add sl:Predloga:Uporabnik en. Thanks a lot. -- Eleassar my talk 13:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I wanna add this: {{{1|This [[user]] is a native speaker of [[English]].}}}.That would let users have their own text. thanks.-- Emperor Walter Humala · ( talk? · help! ) 21:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Is there any reason that this template does not use ifeq language? If there is no particular babel reasoning behind this, could that change be made? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 06:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
A very minor thing, but is there any chance the template's alphabetical categorization can be made lowercase ("en" rather than "En") so the template is listed with all the other English templates? Thanks! - Bbik ★ 19:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Every other English language level should use the Template:Languages (Except Template:User en-6, but it isn't included in the template anyway.), but I was unable to add the template into this page because the page is fully protected.
{{languages|English|en}}
~Iceshark7 17:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
This template incorporates en-6. It is a separate template because since this is an English Wikipedia, other languages cannot really contribute at a professorial level. - Sox 207 21:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Sorry I didn't think of this when you were writing the doc, but could you add a parser function to the userbox like it says at
Category:Category suppression supporting templates, <includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{{categories}}}|no||[[Category:User en|{{PAGENAME}}]][[Category:User en-N|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly> this is how the includeonly tags should look. This will benefit seeing as this page is transcluded as an example on so many pages. I already added the page to this category. -
Sox
207
04:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you! - Sox 207 16:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the -N category as duplicative. (And added the template to the category for ease of navigation.) - jc37 10:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
It's not a duplicate category; it's a more specific one.
Category:User en covers users from all levels of en (see the source of
Template:User en-3 as an example), while
Category:User en-N is intended to cover only users who are native speakers of English. This is customary in all language userbox templates, e.g. see
Template:User fr or any other lang template. With your change, there is now no category that exclusively covers en-N users. I am adding a request to revert
your edit.
Mxipp (
talk)
08:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
No change in semantics. New code:
{{ userbox | id-c = #6EF7A7 | id-s = 14 | id = [[English language|en]] | border-c = #6EF7A7 | info-c = #C5FCDC | info = This user is a '''[[:Category:User en-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User en|English]]'''. }}<includeonly>{{#ifeq:{{{categories}}}|no||[[Category:User en|{{PAGENAME}}]]}}</includeonly><noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}} {{documentation}}</noinclude>
Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
editrequest}}
Could the template be updated to the code below:
{{userbox-level | level = | id = [[English language|en]] | info = This user is a '''[[:Category:User en-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User en|English]]'''. | usercategory = User en | usercategory2 = User en-N }}<noinclude> {{pp-template}} {{documentation}} </noinclude>
This is to change it to use the userbox-level template which is used by other similar userboxes. Thanks -- WOSlinker ( talk) 14:31, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} With the change to the Userbox template, the ability to opt-out of the user category was lost. This line will re-add that functionality:
nocat = {{{nocat|}}}
Can this be added?— Chowbok ☠ 23:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
"DO NOT copy the source of this userbox." doesn't comply with the Manual of Style, it should be "Do not copy the source of this userbox". I don't fully understand how the documentation template works so I apologize in advance if I'm ranting on the wrong page. -- Kris159 ( talk) 13:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The various {{ User en}} templates add pages to Category:User en as well as the specific categories. It seems rather pointless to add the pages to the parent category as well as the subcategories, especially since every user on the English Wikipedia should be able to speak English anyway. McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:10, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
The template for adding this userbox to Babel is incorrect. It should be {{Babel|en}} Rmorabia ( talk) 19:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)