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![]() | Michigan Template‑class | ||||||
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I think we should review the important figure section with http://mgoblue.com/football/page.aspx?id=28898 in mind. I am thinking we may want to do something like convert all names to last name only and then list
I also think we should readd the rivalries and even add the Little Brown Jug link. Any thoughts?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 17:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that a players name appear once for each time he was named All-American. See ( http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/fballam/fballam.htm for multiple year winners). I also suggest that consensus be italicized and unanimous be italicized and underlined or you could use the notation they use at http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/footballs_finest/2002/154-174.pdf . What do you think?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 15:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I am having trouble reconciling http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/footballs_finest/2002/154-174.pdf and http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/fballam/fballam.htm . Why does Michigan list Bubba Paris as a 1981 All-American?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 21:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking of eliminating the other important figures section. I think we have fleshed out every type of individual who could reasonably contest being added for being in a class of important individuals. I think the remaining persons are personal favorites more than important persons. The only possible category I might add would be Michigan Hall of Honor. However, I think we should leave the template generic so that other schools from other conferences as well as our own can copy it in a way that helps the project move forward without needless battles. I like guys like Dennis Franklin, Jon Vaughn and Jamie Morris. However, from the international Wikipedian perspective, they are not cleanly distinguished from others not included on the template. Why not add Julius Franks, Elmer Gedeon and endless others if we don't just say we have got all important categories of Michigan players included. Any thoughts?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 21:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
This Brandon Wiliams: nfl pfr has the hardest WP decision to make. He is easily confused with this Brandon Williams nfl pfr. He has no stats. He hardly played at Michigan. What is going on here?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 02:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Should Matt Gutierrez and Justin Fargas be on our template?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 22:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I added Harbaugh to the Pro bowlers, but my edit summary got garbled. Here is the link: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/pb1995.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger ( talk • contribs) 00:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a good reason that the template consistently spells J. Elliot with one 't' but wikilinks to the Jumbo Elliott (American football) article with two 't's? Not that Jumbo Elliott (American football) consistently spells it with two 't's, but mostly it uses two. Further, the P.Elliott wikilink redirects to a one 't' spelling for the main article Pete Elliot, which then uses two 't's throughout in open defiance of the article title. (At least Bump is fully consistent.) Is there a definitive source on the spellings? -- Michael Devore ( talk) 05:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just as excited about the coaching change as any of the maize and blue faithful, but, we're still in the Lloyd Carr era for a couple more weeks, so, I put him and his staff back in, right above Rich Rod and his staff. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how we should leave it until after the Capital One Bowl. If not that, then we should remove Rich Rod and his staff completely. They're not the Michigan staff yet. The template should reflect the current staff. Trogdor077 05:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Keith Bostic was invited to one Pro Bowl and lost the tiebreaker for a second invitation. The template shows two Pro Bowls. I think we should change it to 1 and am going to do so.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 16:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to set a clear policy for All-American inclusion on the template. It should be clear that the template only includes persons who were listed as first team A-A on at least one of the lists that is recognized in the determination of consensus All-Americans. There seem to be several persons who were named All-Americans either by unrecognized lists or as second team or lower such as Rick Volk, Billy Taylor (American football), Paul G. Goebel, and Bubba Paris. There may be future controversies where people want an article they have contributed time to added to the template. I am going to try to consider adding a note clarifying the template.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 18:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the controversy over Rick Volk's status as an All-American, I have verified that he was picked by The Sporting News as a first-team All-American at safety in 1966. This information is verified both at the U-M list - http://mgoblue.com/football/article.aspx?id=40316 - and by viewing old issues of The Sporting News, which are available on line at http://www.paperofrecord.com/ The December 10, 1966 issue announced the publication's All-American team and Volk was a first-team safety along with Nate Shaw of USC. Steve Spurrier was the top vote recipient in the 1966 poll. "Spartains, Irish Lead All-America: Pro Selectors Pick 4 From Each College," The Sporting News, December 10, 1966. Cbl62 ( talk) 22:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't favor creating a "Type 4" All-American on the template. The Sporting News is one of the major All-American selectors. It is not an un-recognized or second-rate selector. As I've been saying for some time, I think the template is way too long and complicated as it is. I'd be inclined to do the following:
1. Limit the All-American selections to those who we can verify were a legitimate first-team All-American. Under this standard, a Rick Volk belongs. A Bubba Paris may end up having to drop off. I've done research and can't find any contemporaraneous record of Paris having been A-A.
2. Collapse the multiple listings of individuals who have won 2 or 3 times. The double-listings take up a lot of space.
3. Eliminate references to unanimous, consensus, or any other variation of A-A from the template. That level of detail can be left to the articles on individual players.
4. Eliminate the template category for current NFL players. Simply being in the NFL, even as a second or third stringer is not, in my view, notable enough to be included in the Michigan Wolverines Football template. I think including Pro Bowlers (and maybe All-Pros), Pro Football HOF, and even 1st round picks is useful, but inclusion of all current NFL'ers seems excessive.
5. Eliminate the "Active First-Team All Big Ten Players at Michigan." Again, and per the discussion at the College Football project site, the template is way too long and needs to be shortened. This seems to me like another good candidate for deletion.
6. Consider eliminating the "Big 10 Championship" seasons section. Right now, it's not so useful because there are so many unwritten articles. But I think this section could be very useful as the articles get filled in.
7. The "Other Important Figures" section should be kept narrow. My original concept was to cover someone who is an all-time record holder not listed elsewhere (e.g., Henne and Hart) or truly legendary figures who just don't fit elsewhere (e.g., Canham and Ufer). I'd consider dropping guys like Gordon Bell, Dennis Franklin, Tai Streets, and Jon Vaughan.
The one thing that was clear from the discussion on the College Football project page was the overwhelming consensus that the template is too long. Rather than creating even more categories, and sub-categories (e.g., Type 4 All-Americans), we should be thiking of ways to shorten and simplify the template. You and I have both worked hard to improve the template, and I don't think either of us should make unilateral decisions. If we disagree, I suggest we discuss and try to reach a consensus. Let me know your thoughts.
Cbl62 (
talk)
01:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have substantilly revamped the template. Instead of having it serve as an article in and of itself, I have returned it to the original concept of being a template that guides the viewer into the articles. To resolve any and all All-American controversies, I have removed the debate from the template and created a new and separate Michigan Wolverines Football All-Americans page, which is linked in the template. I have also collapsed all of the various categories, many of which resulted in a single player being listed as many as seven or eight times. Instead, we know have a clean run of players of importance. The details of their qualifications can be found by either reviewing the individual articles or by clicking on the various lists icons for passing records, rushing records, All-Americans, etc. This cuts the lenghth of the template substantially while at the same time allowing room to include a broader list of players. Cbl62 ( talk) 07:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I doubt he will ever play another game as a Wolverine, should we remove him yet? michfan2123 ( talk) 15:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I've looked at other sports teaem template, and don't find any others with multiple subcategories of important figures. All seem to go with a single "important figures" section. See
. I think this supports the revamping. The one thing I did different was to divide into three time periods as noted in prior section. Frankly, our template still has way more people than the others, and we should probably try to prune it further. Cbl62 ( talk) 15:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I find the template less useful with the doubly hidden format. Does anyone else agree?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 18:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
For quite some time, there's been a consensus that the template was bloated and needed trimming. I decided to be bold and give it a shot. The "Important Figures" section is the easiest pick for removal, as it is too subjective IMO. I also dropped the "Playing Fields" and "Big Ten Championships" as the groupings that I thought could most easily be lost. If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss here. Cbl62 ( talk) 05:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | College football Template‑class | ||||||
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![]() | Michigan Template‑class | ||||||
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I think we should review the important figure section with http://mgoblue.com/football/page.aspx?id=28898 in mind. I am thinking we may want to do something like convert all names to last name only and then list
I also think we should readd the rivalries and even add the Little Brown Jug link. Any thoughts?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 17:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that a players name appear once for each time he was named All-American. See ( http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/fballam/fballam.htm for multiple year winners). I also suggest that consensus be italicized and unanimous be italicized and underlined or you could use the notation they use at http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/footballs_finest/2002/154-174.pdf . What do you think?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 15:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I am having trouble reconciling http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/footballs_finest/2002/154-174.pdf and http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/fballam/fballam.htm . Why does Michigan list Bubba Paris as a 1981 All-American?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:LOTD) 21:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I am thinking of eliminating the other important figures section. I think we have fleshed out every type of individual who could reasonably contest being added for being in a class of important individuals. I think the remaining persons are personal favorites more than important persons. The only possible category I might add would be Michigan Hall of Honor. However, I think we should leave the template generic so that other schools from other conferences as well as our own can copy it in a way that helps the project move forward without needless battles. I like guys like Dennis Franklin, Jon Vaughn and Jamie Morris. However, from the international Wikipedian perspective, they are not cleanly distinguished from others not included on the template. Why not add Julius Franks, Elmer Gedeon and endless others if we don't just say we have got all important categories of Michigan players included. Any thoughts?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 21:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
This Brandon Wiliams: nfl pfr has the hardest WP decision to make. He is easily confused with this Brandon Williams nfl pfr. He has no stats. He hardly played at Michigan. What is going on here?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 02:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Should Matt Gutierrez and Justin Fargas be on our template?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 22:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I added Harbaugh to the Pro bowlers, but my edit summary got garbled. Here is the link: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/pb1995.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger ( talk • contribs) 00:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Is there a good reason that the template consistently spells J. Elliot with one 't' but wikilinks to the Jumbo Elliott (American football) article with two 't's? Not that Jumbo Elliott (American football) consistently spells it with two 't's, but mostly it uses two. Further, the P.Elliott wikilink redirects to a one 't' spelling for the main article Pete Elliot, which then uses two 't's throughout in open defiance of the article title. (At least Bump is fully consistent.) Is there a definitive source on the spellings? -- Michael Devore ( talk) 05:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just as excited about the coaching change as any of the maize and blue faithful, but, we're still in the Lloyd Carr era for a couple more weeks, so, I put him and his staff back in, right above Rich Rod and his staff. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this is how we should leave it until after the Capital One Bowl. If not that, then we should remove Rich Rod and his staff completely. They're not the Michigan staff yet. The template should reflect the current staff. Trogdor077 05:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Keith Bostic was invited to one Pro Bowl and lost the tiebreaker for a second invitation. The template shows two Pro Bowls. I think we should change it to 1 and am going to do so.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 16:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to set a clear policy for All-American inclusion on the template. It should be clear that the template only includes persons who were listed as first team A-A on at least one of the lists that is recognized in the determination of consensus All-Americans. There seem to be several persons who were named All-Americans either by unrecognized lists or as second team or lower such as Rick Volk, Billy Taylor (American football), Paul G. Goebel, and Bubba Paris. There may be future controversies where people want an article they have contributed time to added to the template. I am going to try to consider adding a note clarifying the template.-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 18:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the controversy over Rick Volk's status as an All-American, I have verified that he was picked by The Sporting News as a first-team All-American at safety in 1966. This information is verified both at the U-M list - http://mgoblue.com/football/article.aspx?id=40316 - and by viewing old issues of The Sporting News, which are available on line at http://www.paperofrecord.com/ The December 10, 1966 issue announced the publication's All-American team and Volk was a first-team safety along with Nate Shaw of USC. Steve Spurrier was the top vote recipient in the 1966 poll. "Spartains, Irish Lead All-America: Pro Selectors Pick 4 From Each College," The Sporting News, December 10, 1966. Cbl62 ( talk) 22:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't favor creating a "Type 4" All-American on the template. The Sporting News is one of the major All-American selectors. It is not an un-recognized or second-rate selector. As I've been saying for some time, I think the template is way too long and complicated as it is. I'd be inclined to do the following:
1. Limit the All-American selections to those who we can verify were a legitimate first-team All-American. Under this standard, a Rick Volk belongs. A Bubba Paris may end up having to drop off. I've done research and can't find any contemporaraneous record of Paris having been A-A.
2. Collapse the multiple listings of individuals who have won 2 or 3 times. The double-listings take up a lot of space.
3. Eliminate references to unanimous, consensus, or any other variation of A-A from the template. That level of detail can be left to the articles on individual players.
4. Eliminate the template category for current NFL players. Simply being in the NFL, even as a second or third stringer is not, in my view, notable enough to be included in the Michigan Wolverines Football template. I think including Pro Bowlers (and maybe All-Pros), Pro Football HOF, and even 1st round picks is useful, but inclusion of all current NFL'ers seems excessive.
5. Eliminate the "Active First-Team All Big Ten Players at Michigan." Again, and per the discussion at the College Football project site, the template is way too long and needs to be shortened. This seems to me like another good candidate for deletion.
6. Consider eliminating the "Big 10 Championship" seasons section. Right now, it's not so useful because there are so many unwritten articles. But I think this section could be very useful as the articles get filled in.
7. The "Other Important Figures" section should be kept narrow. My original concept was to cover someone who is an all-time record holder not listed elsewhere (e.g., Henne and Hart) or truly legendary figures who just don't fit elsewhere (e.g., Canham and Ufer). I'd consider dropping guys like Gordon Bell, Dennis Franklin, Tai Streets, and Jon Vaughan.
The one thing that was clear from the discussion on the College Football project page was the overwhelming consensus that the template is too long. Rather than creating even more categories, and sub-categories (e.g., Type 4 All-Americans), we should be thiking of ways to shorten and simplify the template. You and I have both worked hard to improve the template, and I don't think either of us should make unilateral decisions. If we disagree, I suggest we discuss and try to reach a consensus. Let me know your thoughts.
Cbl62 (
talk)
01:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have substantilly revamped the template. Instead of having it serve as an article in and of itself, I have returned it to the original concept of being a template that guides the viewer into the articles. To resolve any and all All-American controversies, I have removed the debate from the template and created a new and separate Michigan Wolverines Football All-Americans page, which is linked in the template. I have also collapsed all of the various categories, many of which resulted in a single player being listed as many as seven or eight times. Instead, we know have a clean run of players of importance. The details of their qualifications can be found by either reviewing the individual articles or by clicking on the various lists icons for passing records, rushing records, All-Americans, etc. This cuts the lenghth of the template substantially while at the same time allowing room to include a broader list of players. Cbl62 ( talk) 07:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I doubt he will ever play another game as a Wolverine, should we remove him yet? michfan2123 ( talk) 15:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I've looked at other sports teaem template, and don't find any others with multiple subcategories of important figures. All seem to go with a single "important figures" section. See
. I think this supports the revamping. The one thing I did different was to divide into three time periods as noted in prior section. Frankly, our template still has way more people than the others, and we should probably try to prune it further. Cbl62 ( talk) 15:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I find the template less useful with the doubly hidden format. Does anyone else agree?-- TonyTheTiger ( t/ c/ bio/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:LOTD) 18:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
For quite some time, there's been a consensus that the template was bloated and needed trimming. I decided to be bold and give it a shot. The "Important Figures" section is the easiest pick for removal, as it is too subjective IMO. I also dropped the "Playing Fields" and "Big Ten Championships" as the groupings that I thought could most easily be lost. If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss here. Cbl62 ( talk) 05:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)