This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Infobox Bible translation template. |
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Good work. I've added an optional image and a border (looks nicer that way). Also, I've changed the relative "em" box size to a fixed, pixel-based one. I know fixed widths are evil, but as far as I can tell there's no way to specify the width of an image in "em"s. Please don't hit me. Collard 11:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I made the font size a bit smaller as well. Is this okay? Collard 11:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
One more thing (as if my previous nagging hadn't merited a boot to the head already): what should one put for textual basis? Something simple like "Critical text" or "Textus receptus", or something more specific like "United Bible Societies Greek New Testament"? I know you had the example saying "original greek", but this misses an distinction between the text type used for the KJV and the text type used for most post-Westcott/Hort translations. Collard 12:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Very nice work! Two details:
thanks Dovi.
Brusselsshrek 09:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Wareh and I are discussing the reading level problem. The "grade level" can vary by as much as 5 grades depending on the scoring calculation (Flesch Kincaid and Gunning Fog are typically 2 to 4 grades apart because of different methods of calculation). I've also found that most of the numbers available online stem from Zondervan, which seems to put a Gunning Fog number on the competitors and something closer to a Flesch Kincaid number on the NIV. After doing some tests in Word and Readability Studio, I've suggested to Wareh that we put a broad description in the reading level box instead of a number. The description should agree with BOTH the online Zondervan numbers and the numbers that are reproducible on Word processor tools or specialty readability tools. Examples, CEV "Grade School." NIV "Middle School." ASV "High School." If there are no objections here or from Wareh, I'll make those changes this week. However, since no single site has information on all of these translations, can I leave the attribution off, or do I have to hunt each one down?
Thanks.
Tim 15:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
PS -- for an example of the problem of reading scores, here are the different scores I generated off of the entire New Testament for one translation (i.e. these were NOT different samples).
Revised Spache 3.4; Simplified Automated Readability Index 5.0; New Dale-Chall 5-6; Powers, Sumner, Kearl 5.3; Coleman-Liau 6.4; Raygor Estimate 7; Laesbarhedsindex (LIX) 7; Fry 7; Rate Index (RIX) 7; Flesch-Kincaid 7.7; Automated Readability Index 7.9; FORCAST 8.2; SMOG 9.0; New Fog Count 9.9; Gunning Fog 10.2; Linsear Write 11.4; Average (Mean) 7.3
The Flesch-Kincaid is well known, and most of these scores (including the average) are in the Middle School range. But just putting a number on there isn't helpful, especially if your source is a publisher reporting on its competition.
Tim 19:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It is being disputed at Wikipedia_talk:Copyright_problems/Archive_12#Copyrighted_quotes_in_infoboxes that displaying quoted verses in the infobox is a copyright violation (for translations for which copyright has not expired). It is being suggested that if the infobox presents quoted verses, that it should indicate why the quotations are being used. At the very least, I would suggest reordering, so that the quoted verses are shown immediately after the type of translation. Needs further discussion.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 17:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The template is currently displaying blocks of text titled "Concordant Hebrew English Sublinear" and "Concordant Greek Text Sublinear". I don't understand why these are here at all. Should they be removed? Feline Hymnic ( talk) 17:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Hmmm... that discussion weaves all over the place (I realise that is what such discussions tend to do) and some of it is about copyright. Yes, it started off with copyright. But there seems to be no copyright-related conclusion to the discussion. (What conclusion there is seems to be about providing some sort of obscure, hardly-even-English text, itself a translation of sorts, and utterly impenetrable and meaningless even to a lifelong church person.) So I think my original point is still valid... what, in a sentence or two, is the reason for those obscure sequences of English and non-English words? Feline Hymnic ( talk) 19:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
A recent edit changed the default quote from John 3:16 to Matthew 25:41. It was done without discussion here, without comment as to why it was done, and every edit that applied it to an existing article was similarly done without comment. The verse is not appropriate. It would likely inflame annihilationists. If we're changing it, we should discuss it first. However, John 3:16 is the most well-known English language verse and so it makes sense to keep it. Also, other templates use it such as {{ Bibleverse}} and {{ Bibleverse-nb}} while a third uses Genesis 1:1. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 14:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I see from the comment above, that the editor has an axe to grind. The primary reason that I see John 3:16 being used is that it is the most well-known verse in the English language: [1], [2], [3] and other sources. This may be a byproduct of the extent of non-Catholic influence in the English world, or it may be something else. Regardless as to why it is the most popular verse in the English language, the fact remains that it is. This is why a discussion should be opened if we are going to change it and not simply make the change and arbitrarily using an arbitrary verse. And as a side-note, the article on the verse indicates that "the text of the verse is incorporated into the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the fourth century archbishop of Constantinople ... [and ] ... is still commonly used in the Eastern Orthodox Church and in the Byzantine rite of the Roman Catholic Church" so it can't be as "inflammatory" as ThePepel-Eterni has stated. Granted, that statement is not referenced nor is "commonly" defined. It could be an annual service on a special day or it could be more frequent than that. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 15:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Infobox Bible translation template. |
|
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Good work. I've added an optional image and a border (looks nicer that way). Also, I've changed the relative "em" box size to a fixed, pixel-based one. I know fixed widths are evil, but as far as I can tell there's no way to specify the width of an image in "em"s. Please don't hit me. Collard 11:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I made the font size a bit smaller as well. Is this okay? Collard 11:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
One more thing (as if my previous nagging hadn't merited a boot to the head already): what should one put for textual basis? Something simple like "Critical text" or "Textus receptus", or something more specific like "United Bible Societies Greek New Testament"? I know you had the example saying "original greek", but this misses an distinction between the text type used for the KJV and the text type used for most post-Westcott/Hort translations. Collard 12:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Very nice work! Two details:
thanks Dovi.
Brusselsshrek 09:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Wareh and I are discussing the reading level problem. The "grade level" can vary by as much as 5 grades depending on the scoring calculation (Flesch Kincaid and Gunning Fog are typically 2 to 4 grades apart because of different methods of calculation). I've also found that most of the numbers available online stem from Zondervan, which seems to put a Gunning Fog number on the competitors and something closer to a Flesch Kincaid number on the NIV. After doing some tests in Word and Readability Studio, I've suggested to Wareh that we put a broad description in the reading level box instead of a number. The description should agree with BOTH the online Zondervan numbers and the numbers that are reproducible on Word processor tools or specialty readability tools. Examples, CEV "Grade School." NIV "Middle School." ASV "High School." If there are no objections here or from Wareh, I'll make those changes this week. However, since no single site has information on all of these translations, can I leave the attribution off, or do I have to hunt each one down?
Thanks.
Tim 15:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
PS -- for an example of the problem of reading scores, here are the different scores I generated off of the entire New Testament for one translation (i.e. these were NOT different samples).
Revised Spache 3.4; Simplified Automated Readability Index 5.0; New Dale-Chall 5-6; Powers, Sumner, Kearl 5.3; Coleman-Liau 6.4; Raygor Estimate 7; Laesbarhedsindex (LIX) 7; Fry 7; Rate Index (RIX) 7; Flesch-Kincaid 7.7; Automated Readability Index 7.9; FORCAST 8.2; SMOG 9.0; New Fog Count 9.9; Gunning Fog 10.2; Linsear Write 11.4; Average (Mean) 7.3
The Flesch-Kincaid is well known, and most of these scores (including the average) are in the Middle School range. But just putting a number on there isn't helpful, especially if your source is a publisher reporting on its competition.
Tim 19:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
It is being disputed at Wikipedia_talk:Copyright_problems/Archive_12#Copyrighted_quotes_in_infoboxes that displaying quoted verses in the infobox is a copyright violation (for translations for which copyright has not expired). It is being suggested that if the infobox presents quoted verses, that it should indicate why the quotations are being used. At the very least, I would suggest reordering, so that the quoted verses are shown immediately after the type of translation. Needs further discussion.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 17:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The template is currently displaying blocks of text titled "Concordant Hebrew English Sublinear" and "Concordant Greek Text Sublinear". I don't understand why these are here at all. Should they be removed? Feline Hymnic ( talk) 17:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Hmmm... that discussion weaves all over the place (I realise that is what such discussions tend to do) and some of it is about copyright. Yes, it started off with copyright. But there seems to be no copyright-related conclusion to the discussion. (What conclusion there is seems to be about providing some sort of obscure, hardly-even-English text, itself a translation of sorts, and utterly impenetrable and meaningless even to a lifelong church person.) So I think my original point is still valid... what, in a sentence or two, is the reason for those obscure sequences of English and non-English words? Feline Hymnic ( talk) 19:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
A recent edit changed the default quote from John 3:16 to Matthew 25:41. It was done without discussion here, without comment as to why it was done, and every edit that applied it to an existing article was similarly done without comment. The verse is not appropriate. It would likely inflame annihilationists. If we're changing it, we should discuss it first. However, John 3:16 is the most well-known English language verse and so it makes sense to keep it. Also, other templates use it such as {{ Bibleverse}} and {{ Bibleverse-nb}} while a third uses Genesis 1:1. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 14:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I see from the comment above, that the editor has an axe to grind. The primary reason that I see John 3:16 being used is that it is the most well-known verse in the English language: [1], [2], [3] and other sources. This may be a byproduct of the extent of non-Catholic influence in the English world, or it may be something else. Regardless as to why it is the most popular verse in the English language, the fact remains that it is. This is why a discussion should be opened if we are going to change it and not simply make the change and arbitrarily using an arbitrary verse. And as a side-note, the article on the verse indicates that "the text of the verse is incorporated into the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the fourth century archbishop of Constantinople ... [and ] ... is still commonly used in the Eastern Orthodox Church and in the Byzantine rite of the Roman Catholic Church" so it can't be as "inflammatory" as ThePepel-Eterni has stated. Granted, that statement is not referenced nor is "commonly" defined. It could be an annual service on a special day or it could be more frequent than that. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 15:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)