Template:Family name explanation is permanently
protected from editing because it is a
heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
consensus, editors may use {{
edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's
documentation to add usage notes or
categories.
Any contributor may edit the template's sandbox. This template does not have a testcases subpage. You can create the testcases subpage here. |
Anthroponymy Template‑class | |||||||
|
To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, Template talk:Family name footnote and Template talk:Family name hatnote redirect here. |
I always remove given names after the first occurrence per WP:LASTNAME. But sometimes when it is not obvious to me which is the surname (and in these cases there would be no hatnote), I just leave it. I have thought there should be a tag for this that would put the article in Category:Article with ambiguous surnames for a language/culture expert to fix. What do you think about adding this to the template, maybe with a special value for the first parameter (like "?") ? MB 22:41, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Primefac, I still think this would be useful. At
Swastika Dutta, the title had two names, there was a surname implied by default sort, but in the article the other name was used as the "short" name. I was unsure which was the actual surname and did not want to guess. As an experiment, I
tried this, which displayed the hatnote In this article, the surname is ?.
. Within a day, someone had updated the hatnote (hopefully correctly) and I went back and fixed the rest of the article to use the surname. Proof it can be effective. I think this should be formalized.
MB 16:54, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac: Would you link Telugu to Telugu name (Redirected to Indian name#Telugu) rather that people, inline with most others? -- Ab207 ( talk) 06:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Pages in
Category:Hatnote templates for names that have been folded in to the sandbox: but have not yet been merged via TFD or tested
Templates that are currently not used (given here just to keep track of things):
Create list. Primefac ( talk) 17:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
It looks like Template:Dinka name would be able to be folded in easily. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 19:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac: Could you please add support for Thai, with the target link being Thai name? Thanks. TJRC ( talk) 00:27, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Is there anything to be done for forenames? Because the Slavic name template notes transliteration of the family name, but sometimes in Slavic names the forename is transliterated as well (or instead). Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 22:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
I posted this over at Chinese name template but did not receive any response so I might as well post it here. Can Chinese name template include the usage of stage or pen name as well, such as in Korean name template? I need to use it for Ming Dao article. Lulusword (talk) 15:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
|pen=
parameter to switch the wording from "is a generation name" to "is a pen/stage name".
Primefac (
talk) 14:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Can we have subset for Hong Kong name? It is neither Chinese name or English name, but usually fused the two as a "full name" to save writing space. For example, Patrick Ho is his English name, "Ho Chi-ping" is the romanization of his Chinese name. It just common but weird way to write his full name as "Patrick Ho Chi-ping", and sometimes render as "Ho Chi-ping, Patrick".
It is an issue given Charles K. Kao (born 高錕 Kao Kuen), the "K" actually not the initial of his middle name, but initial of his Chinese given name "Kuen ". Matthew hk ( talk) 19:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
"In this Hong Kong name, the family name is X. In accordance with Hong Kong custom, this person may either preferred to use Western style name Y or Chinese style name Z to refer themselves. "
...Hong Kong custom, their Western-style name is Y and their Chinese-style name is Zor something along those lines if there's no specific preference. If there is a preference, well, I'm not really sure the easiest way to deal with that. Primefac ( talk) 00:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello. The template {{ Catalan name}} was merged here, but the content is slightly different from the original template. Could the mod2 parameter for Catalan be changed to the following, the original content of the pre-merger template ? Thanks, Girrit ( talk) 16:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
| Catalan = and the second or maternal family name is '' {{{2|}}}''; both are generally joined by the [[:wikt:i#Catalan|conjunction i]]
Are there any way to have filled |1=
and |3=
and but have |2=
hidden? Since person like
Qian Zhongshu and
Zhan Tianyou has modern pinyin transliteration but also have notable old transliteration that were used in a lot of Western literature.
Matthew hk (
talk) 23:57, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This name is sometimes transliterated as <3>. Primefac ( talk) 00:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I have just created the article Democratic Republic of the Congo naming customs and was hoping to create a new version of this template for Congolese names. In terms of phrasing, I thought:
In this Congolese name, [Y] is a post-surname, not a surname.
Alternatively:
In this Congolese name, the surname is [X] and the post-surname is [Y].
Of course, "Congolese" is potentially controversial because people from the Republic of the Congo follow entirely different naming customs. What does everyone think? — Brigade Piron ( talk) 09:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Where should this template go? Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout says hatnotes go before maintenance templates, but I always see this one after. GA-RT-22 ( talk) 00:18, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add support for
Burmese names. Suggested text:
In this
Burmese name, the given name is {{{1}}}. There is no family name.
― Tartan357 Talk 03:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Could this template be updated to use language codes ie. lang=es as well as lang=Spanish? Most other language-related templates allow use of language codes. Not an urgent thing, but a "nice to have". Joseph 2302 ( talk) 16:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
The template includes the code
In accordance with Hong Kong custom, their Western-style name is and their Chinese-style name is
To keep the wording consistent with what is used for the other name types, I suggest change to
In accordance with Hong Kong custom, the Western-style name is and the Chinese-style name is
because some people are still uncomfortable with singular they, and we don't have to have that debate here if we simply refer to "the name" instead of "their name" as we do in all other name types except Hong Kong names. 79.65.232.245 ( talk) 08:50, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
The above template is misleading because it flat out makes the claim that a name is "Eastern Slavic" when it's merely using an "Eastern Slavic naming convention" (i.e. Russian and Soviet naming convention), which is what the former hatnote used to say. The name itself could be Turkic, North Caucasian, etc. This gives off a misleading perception to readers of both the name (if it's non-Slavic) and the person bearing it (if they are non-Slavic). This really needs to be looked into and modified per concern. — DA1 ( talk) 05:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Name order (paternal, maternal) is no longer fixed in some Spanish-speaking countries. Hat note could be rephrased.
191.116.129.215 ( talk) 23:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
esmf
that flops the order of paternal and maternal surnames for Spanish (modeling it after how nd
works for Dutch marital names). It looks like that could work ...
Template:Family name hatnote/testcases. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 15:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)Since the shift over to this template, I've found it confusing to figure out how to use it with different languages, in part because the examples were incomplete and the languages supported wasn't clear to me. I've tried to rework the documentation so that it shows clearly the code to use and the text exported for each language. Hopefully this is clearer for others and not just me ... — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 17:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
The way lang=Germanic
works doesn't seem appropriate.
Germanic names deals with old Germanic given names like Æthelwulf, not
German names where you want to specify the surname is "Trappe" not "von Trappe" or vice versa. Simple fix is to replace
Germanic name in the code with
German name. I'm not seeing instances where a
Germanic name hatnote is in use or needed. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 18:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
With the text displayed for lang=Ijebu
, the "Y" in Yoruba name should be capitalized. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 18:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
See Template_talk:Lang#Unmatched_quote_character for an example (now fixed) where this was causing an unmatched quote mark to be displayed, with a full explanation by Trappist the monk. – Fayenatic London 21:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The output for Vietnamese name, "In accordance with Vietnamese custom, this person should be referred to by the given name" is not true sometime. For example, Phan Bội Châu and Phan Chu Trinh, whose article use this template, are never referred to by their given name Châu or Trinh in Vietnamese, but by their family name Phan or their pen names Sào Nam and Tây Hồ/Hy Mã respectively. That's because they lived in an older generation where it is disrespectful to call someone of high status by their given name. Same reason why Hồ Chí Minh is called Hồ not Minh, Tôn Đức Thắng is called Tôn not Thắng.
And even in today Vietnam, you rarely see a person of high status referred to by their given name only. They are almost always referred to by their full name. Example: Googling "Tổng bí thư Nguyễn Phú Trọng" (General Secretary Nguyễn Phú Trọng) returns 3 million results, while "Tổng bí thư Trọng" (General Secretary Trọng) only returns 85,000 results, and almost all of them are from anti-VCP sites such as BBC, VOA, RFI, etc.
-- KomradeRice ( talk) 11:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Germanic to German. The information at Germanic name deals with personal names and not family names, making the generic output of this template inappropriate for Germanic names. German name, on the other hand, lines up with the information conveyed through the hatnote. Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 12:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=Germanic
, and we change "Germanic" to "German", won't that break the hatnote?
P.I. Ellsworth -
ed.
put'r there 00:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=German
: both of them involve a name that mixes cultural traditions/practices in a way that might be better handled as text instead of with the hatnote. I'm not sure how the previous {{Template:Germanic name}}
was used before it was folded into {{Template:Family name hatnote}}
, but it
wasn't mentioned specifically in any of the merge discussion.
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 01:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=German
.
P.I. Ellsworth -
ed.
put'r there 02:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
In Lebanon, full names are as follows: first name + father's name + surname. Is there a way to adapt the template to include this? Nehme 1499 23:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Mireya Moscoso, Carmen Osbahr, Marcela Agoncillo, Hilaria Aguinaldo, Saturnina Hidalgo, María Cadilla, and María Teresa Uribe (also Carmela Eulate Sanjurjo and Ana Roque de Duprey which use a note) use a custom hatnote template for Spanish names with 3 names such as
What should be done with these? Gonnym ( talk) 14:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Method of surname clarification. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 00:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Consider
Maria de los Reyes Romero Vilches (originally created, incorrectly, as
Reyes Romero Vilches). In this Spanish name, the first or paternal surname is 'Romero' and the second or maternal family name is 'Vilches'. However, one can easily see how someone might confuse the function of 'Reyes', or wonder whether the initial template user missed one of the family names. I could see adding an optional named parameter |given name=
(or, given, or first, or first name) to generate:
to clarify situations such as this one. It needn't be limited to Spanish surnames, and could be helpful in other cases. Add |gender=m
if you want, to generate this for
Zhou Enlai:
Maybe better than |gender=
would be |pronoun=value
, to better support names of non-binary individuals using the correct pronoun in the hatnote. Maybe a first name param is not quite cricket, given the template name is "Family name hatnote", but I don't really see that as a problem, and we should probably add a redirect from
Template:Ethnic name hatnote anyway, especially given that
Template:Family name points somewhere entirely unrelated.
Mathglot (
talk) 20:15, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Currently, Template:Family_name points to Template:Infobox name, which I find kind of ridiculous. There are only 18 inlinks to the redirect, and only one in article space (at Goodman (surname) ). The rest are a smattering of archived discussions in user talk, WP:talk, and some hatnotes specifically to unscramble the mess. Let's just fix Goodman (surname), and usurp the redirect. Mathglot ( talk) 20:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Good day everyone! I wrote a proposal to merge Template: Philippine name with Template: Family name hatnote for the reason to avoid confusion regarding the differences between the Philippine and the Template:Portuguese name templates as well to minimize for at least 2 variations of the above-mentioned template. Also, there's an alternate template written on my sandbox ( User:RenRen070193/sandbox) and I tried to replace the current one but I was prohibited by the administrator of this particular form doing that particular template. RenRen070193 ( talk) 01:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
The above template {{family name hatnote|X|Y|lang=Bulgarian}}
doesn't display the second parameter ("Y") which is the surname and says surname instead of patronymic for the first one ("X"). It should be similar to the Eastern Slavic one.
Anthony Whitaker (
talk) 10:09, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Could Chilean name be added to the template please? It should be the same format as Spanish name i.e " Chilean = and the second or maternal family name is ".-- Obi2canibe ( talk) 21:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC) Obi2canibe ( talk) 21:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Description of suggested change: Tweak the language shown when only a single element is provided for a Mongolian name to make it shorter and more in line with the text of similar situations for other languages. (Implemented in the sandbox.)
Diff:
− | + | There is neither a [[patronymic]] nor a [[surname|family name]]. |
— Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 16:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Any specific reason Template:efn Chinese name and Template:efn Spanish name exist when the standard one seems to work well? Kaffet i halsen ( talk) 09:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
{{efn Chinese name|Lee}}
than it is to type out {{efn|In this [[Chinese name]], the [[Chinese surname|family name]] is Lee.}}
.
Primefac (
talk) 10:39, 17 April 2023 (UTC)to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for, and that's what readers expect from them. Using them instead for surname clarification muddles that purpose, and means it's no longer safe for readers who know they've arrived at the correct article to ignore them.
Hi! I'm trying to get what one sees at Carrie Lam (Hong Kong-style western and Chinese names) displayed also at Edmund Ho (Macau-style western and Chinese names) but this does not seem to work. The responses "Macau" and "Macao" should have the same result.
Thank you, WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Primefac, I've been thinking about improving the Category:Explanatory footnote name templates recently. I really like the consolidation you did of all the name clarification hatnotes, so I was wondering if it would be possible to use the same core for the footnote templates. I envision {{ Family name footnote}}, which would reference the same core code for generating the text as this template, but just wrap it in a footnote rather than a hatnote.
It looks like the hatnote itself is currently in {{ family name hatnote/core}}, though, so I'm not sure if there's a way to do that currently. Do you know if we might be able to shift anything around to make that possible? {{u| Sdkb}} talk 21:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
|textonly=yes
parameter, but with your idea, the explanation template could just be invoked directly.Hi, with Macau names, the given name is not usually hyphenated. However, there appears to be an error with the output of this template in the article of Edmund Ho:
In this article, the surname is Ho. In accordance with Macau custom, the Western-style name is Edmund and the Chinese-style name is Hau Wah.
The Western-style name should be Edmund Ho, and the Chinese-style name should be Ho Hau Wah. WikiEditor50 ( talk) 14:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
2=
or 3=
, so it doesn't output. You could add "Ho" to the second and third fields to get the output you're looking for:{{family name hatnote|1=[[He (surname)|Ho]]|2=Edmund Ho|3=Ho Hau Wah|lang=Macau}}
I've noticed this to go against WP:HATEXTRA - there's links to multiple items. It's especially odd to see links to generic terms like surname, which goes against WP:OVERLINK. As it's been like this for many years, I'm wary of just going ahead and changing it. What would be the reason to keep the extraneous links? -- Joy ( talk) 14:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Too many links can make the lead hard to read. In technical articles that use uncommon terms, a higher-than-usual link density in the lead section may be necessary.
The purpose of a hatnote is to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for.
Each additional link in the hatnote besides the ambiguous or confusable topic(s) makes it more difficult to find the desired target.
lang=
to determine how the hatnote is phrased and to link to the relevant article on naming conventions. The linking of the surname is the editor's decision I was referring to. In that specific case,
Chinese surname should probably be the link for "Chinese name" since the hatnote is about surnames. lang=Chinese Indonesian
has a similar issue.makes it more difficult to find the desired target" doesn't apply. I see this hatnote as a bit of helpful info that sets the reader up for expectations of how the person will be referred to in the article. The links are there to help someone who might be unfamiliar with language/country/culture's the naming conventions. If there were no links in the hatnote, would the problem still exist for you? —Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 12:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Are we going to try to fold Template:Portuguese name into this scheme? Mathglot ( talk) 01:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
When lang=Mongolaian and the second parameter is not given, the template displays "There is neither a patronymic nor a family name." Is it too arbitrary to say so? Maybe the person does have a patronymic name, but is unknown to public. It would be more accurate to say "There is neither a patronymic nor a family name in the title of this page." -- 小林子冲 ( talk) 21:36, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
The hatnote, when set for Catalan, used to include generally joined by the conjunction "i"
(or similar) at the end, and at some point recently this was removed. Is there a reason for that?
Kingsif (
talk) 03:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Not really"generally" connected by i, and that changing the note to "sometimes" isn't worth it.
generally joined by the conjunction "i"from the Catalan family name hatnote: was that the right decision, or not? (Other issues, like whether there should be separate entries for Spanish or Catalan should be raised separately.) Imho, it was the right decision, for two reasons:
a bit of helpful info that sets the reader up for expectations of how the person will be referred to in the article.
In these three examples, which is better: #1, or #2?
{{Family name explanation|van Gogh|Gogh|lang=Dutch}}
:
{{Family name explanation|Beauvoir|lang=French}}
:
{{Family name explanation|
al-Assad|lang=Arabic}}
:
Number 1 is better in all three cases. There is no reason to include extraneous information that, while certainly very interesting, is already explained at the linked articles Dutch name, French name, and Arabic name. At the top of an article, it is just bloat, and redundant bloat at that. I would have no problem with adding a #Terminology or #Onomastics section to all three articles, in which the #2 version could be added, and expanded upon if desired. But it does not belong in a hatnote. Mathglot ( talk) 23:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
...if you don't see issues stemming from your change as a "compelling reason", it is because you are choosing not to.
I also think you're suggesting an RfC to prolong this process...
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk ·
contribs) wants to offer a
third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
The dispute stems from @
Mathglot: having removed the acknowledgement that Catalan surnames (when written in full) are joined by i in the language-specific surname hatnote – ostensibly because they think it is inaccurate based on an English-language Wikipedia search, and for brevity – and then another user removed the hatnote from an article where both it and the acknowledgement of i were relevant, because of the change.
While I have asked for suggestions on improving the hatnote that do not have to say the i is common and which can be shorter, or even optional (addressing the concerns), Mathglot has shunned any attempt at discussion and instead simply tried to defend why they made the original edit and say it should stand. I do not know why they have refused to discuss other options even when I have outlined one and asked them explicitly to respond, but at least they have sought 3O.
Kingsif (
talk) 17:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Viewpoint on hatnotes purpose - perhaps relevant
|
---|
As I understand it, hatnote name templates serve two primary purposes: to identify the name an article subject will be identified as throughout the article, and to clarify for readers who have expectations of English names any differences. |
It's about whether the {{ Family name hatnote}} that appears page-top on some biographies of Catalan people ( category, list) should contain a clause explaining the meaning of the conjunction "i" seen in some Catalan names. (That's a summary of the content dispute; this is my first time with 3O; am I supposed to give an argument here in favor of some position? Mathglot ( talk) 18:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC))
contain a clause explaining the meaning of the conjunction "i", nor has the hatnote ever contained an explanation of what i means (just that it is there) so that cannot be the dispute. With this established, are you now open to discussion? Kingsif ( talk) 21:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I don't think I can resolve this dispute so I'll be relisting it at WP:Third opinion. Thanks to both editors for their summaries, I'm sure they will be useful for whoever does respond to this. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
3O Response: As it seems this is not a universal or even near-universal practice in Catalan names, I don't think the template should always or by default include it, as when the text appears where the convention is not used that could be confusing to the reader and in any case is unnecessary. However, is there any reason it would not be acceptable to include an optional parameter, defaulting to "no", which could be set to display the explanatory text on articles for people whose names do use this convention? It seems to me that might be the best solution. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
, which are joined by i.Kingsif ( talk) 23:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
; theseat the start, it doesn't follow). In terms of Pujol, interesting choice. His name is Jordi Pujol i Soley, which even Spanish Wikipedia and Simple English Wikipedia have, and yet English Wikipedia does not. I am not going to get into other issues, but for a long time there have been concerted efforts to de-Catalan Wikipedia, especially in terms of Catalan politicians, and the fact the lead of his article only calls him Spanish despite being the president of Catalonia… yeah. So first I would update the name in the article, and then the note would read in full:
is stating the obviousand that one can see it
just from looking at [the name]— the same can be said of everything included in all of the hatnotes. You can look at the written surname and see, look, there is the name. The reason to include the note is, as I've said, because readers unfamiliar with Catalan names will not know if the i is a typo, if it's an attachment of the first/second surname, or whatever else. (As with the Dutch van note, it is to make clear "this belongs in the name" and to establish the relationship between it and the other elements.) Or; if a reader is somewhat familiar with how Catalan names are written they will already know that there are two surnames and these are joined by i — but the mere existence of the hatnote presumes that the average reader is not familiar. They will "just look" at two surnames and an i and not know what's going on at all, or make inaccurate assumptions based on their experience with English names. Why would we clarify some of the surname elements, but not all of them? The i is as much a part of the surname as any other element and should be clarified in the hatnote; the hatnote's main purpose is providing clarity, so there is no reason to exclude a clarifying note. Kingsif ( talk) 02:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
No, that is the whole point of the hatnote: you cannot tell what is there without the hatnoteThis was literally my point, if you didn't read the rest of my comment. I almost said the same verbatim. Please, read. We have a hatnote because we presume readers do not know how foreign language names are constructed. If we are presuming that, why would you then presume that just by looking at the name readers will know what the i is? Or that it's not worth mentioning because they can click on the language link - which, yeah, they could for any other element of the name and so the hatnote would entirely be redundant. I didn't want this to be long, but to address your thoughts that, in my view, are flawed (I thought that what I am about to say was a clear implication from my last comment, but making it fully clear now): if someone is only familiar with English surnames, they would most likely see "Francesc Pi i Margall" and not know what is what at all. So we tell them both Pi and Margall are surnames. That is something different to their expectations and it has not addressed every word there; with no knowledge of Catalan, they have no expectation or idea of what the i is or if it is supposed to be there. We cannot assume that a reader, who knows so little about the language to need to be told what the surnames are, will make any assumptions (however logical it seems to us) about the rest of the surname. For someone with no prior knowledge of Catalan names, the thought "oh so if those are the two separate surnames (a brand new concept), that random 'i' is clearly there to join them, makes sense" is not a natural thought pattern. Without mentioning it, we are leaving the reader with more questions. Does that make sense or do we have to repeat ourselves some more? Kingsif ( talk) 14:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Template:Family name explanation is permanently
protected from editing because it is a
heavily used or highly visible template. Substantial changes should first be proposed and discussed here on this page. If the proposal is uncontroversial or has been discussed and is supported by
consensus, editors may use {{
edit template-protected}} to notify an administrator or template editor to make the requested edit. Usually, any contributor may edit the template's
documentation to add usage notes or
categories.
Any contributor may edit the template's sandbox. This template does not have a testcases subpage. You can create the testcases subpage here. |
Anthroponymy Template‑class | |||||||
|
To help centralise discussions and keep related topics together, Template talk:Family name footnote and Template talk:Family name hatnote redirect here. |
I always remove given names after the first occurrence per WP:LASTNAME. But sometimes when it is not obvious to me which is the surname (and in these cases there would be no hatnote), I just leave it. I have thought there should be a tag for this that would put the article in Category:Article with ambiguous surnames for a language/culture expert to fix. What do you think about adding this to the template, maybe with a special value for the first parameter (like "?") ? MB 22:41, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Primefac, I still think this would be useful. At
Swastika Dutta, the title had two names, there was a surname implied by default sort, but in the article the other name was used as the "short" name. I was unsure which was the actual surname and did not want to guess. As an experiment, I
tried this, which displayed the hatnote In this article, the surname is ?.
. Within a day, someone had updated the hatnote (hopefully correctly) and I went back and fixed the rest of the article to use the surname. Proof it can be effective. I think this should be formalized.
MB 16:54, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac: Would you link Telugu to Telugu name (Redirected to Indian name#Telugu) rather that people, inline with most others? -- Ab207 ( talk) 06:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
Pages in
Category:Hatnote templates for names that have been folded in to the sandbox: but have not yet been merged via TFD or tested
Templates that are currently not used (given here just to keep track of things):
Create list. Primefac ( talk) 17:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
It looks like Template:Dinka name would be able to be folded in easily. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 19:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Primefac: Could you please add support for Thai, with the target link being Thai name? Thanks. TJRC ( talk) 00:27, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Is there anything to be done for forenames? Because the Slavic name template notes transliteration of the family name, but sometimes in Slavic names the forename is transliterated as well (or instead). Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 22:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
I posted this over at Chinese name template but did not receive any response so I might as well post it here. Can Chinese name template include the usage of stage or pen name as well, such as in Korean name template? I need to use it for Ming Dao article. Lulusword (talk) 15:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
|pen=
parameter to switch the wording from "is a generation name" to "is a pen/stage name".
Primefac (
talk) 14:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Can we have subset for Hong Kong name? It is neither Chinese name or English name, but usually fused the two as a "full name" to save writing space. For example, Patrick Ho is his English name, "Ho Chi-ping" is the romanization of his Chinese name. It just common but weird way to write his full name as "Patrick Ho Chi-ping", and sometimes render as "Ho Chi-ping, Patrick".
It is an issue given Charles K. Kao (born 高錕 Kao Kuen), the "K" actually not the initial of his middle name, but initial of his Chinese given name "Kuen ". Matthew hk ( talk) 19:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
"In this Hong Kong name, the family name is X. In accordance with Hong Kong custom, this person may either preferred to use Western style name Y or Chinese style name Z to refer themselves. "
...Hong Kong custom, their Western-style name is Y and their Chinese-style name is Zor something along those lines if there's no specific preference. If there is a preference, well, I'm not really sure the easiest way to deal with that. Primefac ( talk) 00:43, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Hello. The template {{ Catalan name}} was merged here, but the content is slightly different from the original template. Could the mod2 parameter for Catalan be changed to the following, the original content of the pre-merger template ? Thanks, Girrit ( talk) 16:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
| Catalan = and the second or maternal family name is '' {{{2|}}}''; both are generally joined by the [[:wikt:i#Catalan|conjunction i]]
Are there any way to have filled |1=
and |3=
and but have |2=
hidden? Since person like
Qian Zhongshu and
Zhan Tianyou has modern pinyin transliteration but also have notable old transliteration that were used in a lot of Western literature.
Matthew hk (
talk) 23:57, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This name is sometimes transliterated as <3>. Primefac ( talk) 00:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I have just created the article Democratic Republic of the Congo naming customs and was hoping to create a new version of this template for Congolese names. In terms of phrasing, I thought:
In this Congolese name, [Y] is a post-surname, not a surname.
Alternatively:
In this Congolese name, the surname is [X] and the post-surname is [Y].
Of course, "Congolese" is potentially controversial because people from the Republic of the Congo follow entirely different naming customs. What does everyone think? — Brigade Piron ( talk) 09:06, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Where should this template go? Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout says hatnotes go before maintenance templates, but I always see this one after. GA-RT-22 ( talk) 00:18, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add support for
Burmese names. Suggested text:
In this
Burmese name, the given name is {{{1}}}. There is no family name.
― Tartan357 Talk 03:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Could this template be updated to use language codes ie. lang=es as well as lang=Spanish? Most other language-related templates allow use of language codes. Not an urgent thing, but a "nice to have". Joseph 2302 ( talk) 16:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
The template includes the code
In accordance with Hong Kong custom, their Western-style name is and their Chinese-style name is
To keep the wording consistent with what is used for the other name types, I suggest change to
In accordance with Hong Kong custom, the Western-style name is and the Chinese-style name is
because some people are still uncomfortable with singular they, and we don't have to have that debate here if we simply refer to "the name" instead of "their name" as we do in all other name types except Hong Kong names. 79.65.232.245 ( talk) 08:50, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
The above template is misleading because it flat out makes the claim that a name is "Eastern Slavic" when it's merely using an "Eastern Slavic naming convention" (i.e. Russian and Soviet naming convention), which is what the former hatnote used to say. The name itself could be Turkic, North Caucasian, etc. This gives off a misleading perception to readers of both the name (if it's non-Slavic) and the person bearing it (if they are non-Slavic). This really needs to be looked into and modified per concern. — DA1 ( talk) 05:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Name order (paternal, maternal) is no longer fixed in some Spanish-speaking countries. Hat note could be rephrased.
191.116.129.215 ( talk) 23:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
esmf
that flops the order of paternal and maternal surnames for Spanish (modeling it after how nd
works for Dutch marital names). It looks like that could work ...
Template:Family name hatnote/testcases. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 15:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)Since the shift over to this template, I've found it confusing to figure out how to use it with different languages, in part because the examples were incomplete and the languages supported wasn't clear to me. I've tried to rework the documentation so that it shows clearly the code to use and the text exported for each language. Hopefully this is clearer for others and not just me ... — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 17:06, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
The way lang=Germanic
works doesn't seem appropriate.
Germanic names deals with old Germanic given names like Æthelwulf, not
German names where you want to specify the surname is "Trappe" not "von Trappe" or vice versa. Simple fix is to replace
Germanic name in the code with
German name. I'm not seeing instances where a
Germanic name hatnote is in use or needed. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 18:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
With the text displayed for lang=Ijebu
, the "Y" in Yoruba name should be capitalized. —
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 18:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
See Template_talk:Lang#Unmatched_quote_character for an example (now fixed) where this was causing an unmatched quote mark to be displayed, with a full explanation by Trappist the monk. – Fayenatic London 21:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The output for Vietnamese name, "In accordance with Vietnamese custom, this person should be referred to by the given name" is not true sometime. For example, Phan Bội Châu and Phan Chu Trinh, whose article use this template, are never referred to by their given name Châu or Trinh in Vietnamese, but by their family name Phan or their pen names Sào Nam and Tây Hồ/Hy Mã respectively. That's because they lived in an older generation where it is disrespectful to call someone of high status by their given name. Same reason why Hồ Chí Minh is called Hồ not Minh, Tôn Đức Thắng is called Tôn not Thắng.
And even in today Vietnam, you rarely see a person of high status referred to by their given name only. They are almost always referred to by their full name. Example: Googling "Tổng bí thư Nguyễn Phú Trọng" (General Secretary Nguyễn Phú Trọng) returns 3 million results, while "Tổng bí thư Trọng" (General Secretary Trọng) only returns 85,000 results, and almost all of them are from anti-VCP sites such as BBC, VOA, RFI, etc.
-- KomradeRice ( talk) 11:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Germanic to German. The information at Germanic name deals with personal names and not family names, making the generic output of this template inappropriate for Germanic names. German name, on the other hand, lines up with the information conveyed through the hatnote. Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 12:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=Germanic
, and we change "Germanic" to "German", won't that break the hatnote?
P.I. Ellsworth -
ed.
put'r there 00:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=German
: both of them involve a name that mixes cultural traditions/practices in a way that might be better handled as text instead of with the hatnote. I'm not sure how the previous {{Template:Germanic name}}
was used before it was folded into {{Template:Family name hatnote}}
, but it
wasn't mentioned specifically in any of the merge discussion.
Carter (Tcr25) (
talk) 01:51, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
|lang=German
.
P.I. Ellsworth -
ed.
put'r there 02:16, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
In Lebanon, full names are as follows: first name + father's name + surname. Is there a way to adapt the template to include this? Nehme 1499 23:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Mireya Moscoso, Carmen Osbahr, Marcela Agoncillo, Hilaria Aguinaldo, Saturnina Hidalgo, María Cadilla, and María Teresa Uribe (also Carmela Eulate Sanjurjo and Ana Roque de Duprey which use a note) use a custom hatnote template for Spanish names with 3 names such as
What should be done with these? Gonnym ( talk) 14:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) § Method of surname clarification. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 00:29, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Consider
Maria de los Reyes Romero Vilches (originally created, incorrectly, as
Reyes Romero Vilches). In this Spanish name, the first or paternal surname is 'Romero' and the second or maternal family name is 'Vilches'. However, one can easily see how someone might confuse the function of 'Reyes', or wonder whether the initial template user missed one of the family names. I could see adding an optional named parameter |given name=
(or, given, or first, or first name) to generate:
to clarify situations such as this one. It needn't be limited to Spanish surnames, and could be helpful in other cases. Add |gender=m
if you want, to generate this for
Zhou Enlai:
Maybe better than |gender=
would be |pronoun=value
, to better support names of non-binary individuals using the correct pronoun in the hatnote. Maybe a first name param is not quite cricket, given the template name is "Family name hatnote", but I don't really see that as a problem, and we should probably add a redirect from
Template:Ethnic name hatnote anyway, especially given that
Template:Family name points somewhere entirely unrelated.
Mathglot (
talk) 20:15, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Currently, Template:Family_name points to Template:Infobox name, which I find kind of ridiculous. There are only 18 inlinks to the redirect, and only one in article space (at Goodman (surname) ). The rest are a smattering of archived discussions in user talk, WP:talk, and some hatnotes specifically to unscramble the mess. Let's just fix Goodman (surname), and usurp the redirect. Mathglot ( talk) 20:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Good day everyone! I wrote a proposal to merge Template: Philippine name with Template: Family name hatnote for the reason to avoid confusion regarding the differences between the Philippine and the Template:Portuguese name templates as well to minimize for at least 2 variations of the above-mentioned template. Also, there's an alternate template written on my sandbox ( User:RenRen070193/sandbox) and I tried to replace the current one but I was prohibited by the administrator of this particular form doing that particular template. RenRen070193 ( talk) 01:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
The above template {{family name hatnote|X|Y|lang=Bulgarian}}
doesn't display the second parameter ("Y") which is the surname and says surname instead of patronymic for the first one ("X"). It should be similar to the Eastern Slavic one.
Anthony Whitaker (
talk) 10:09, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template:Family name hatnote has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Could Chilean name be added to the template please? It should be the same format as Spanish name i.e " Chilean = and the second or maternal family name is ".-- Obi2canibe ( talk) 21:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC) Obi2canibe ( talk) 21:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Description of suggested change: Tweak the language shown when only a single element is provided for a Mongolian name to make it shorter and more in line with the text of similar situations for other languages. (Implemented in the sandbox.)
Diff:
− | + | There is neither a [[patronymic]] nor a [[surname|family name]]. |
— Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 16:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Any specific reason Template:efn Chinese name and Template:efn Spanish name exist when the standard one seems to work well? Kaffet i halsen ( talk) 09:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
{{efn Chinese name|Lee}}
than it is to type out {{efn|In this [[Chinese name]], the [[Chinese surname|family name]] is Lee.}}
.
Primefac (
talk) 10:39, 17 April 2023 (UTC)to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for, and that's what readers expect from them. Using them instead for surname clarification muddles that purpose, and means it's no longer safe for readers who know they've arrived at the correct article to ignore them.
Hi! I'm trying to get what one sees at Carrie Lam (Hong Kong-style western and Chinese names) displayed also at Edmund Ho (Macau-style western and Chinese names) but this does not seem to work. The responses "Macau" and "Macao" should have the same result.
Thank you, WhisperToMe ( talk) 21:03, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Primefac, I've been thinking about improving the Category:Explanatory footnote name templates recently. I really like the consolidation you did of all the name clarification hatnotes, so I was wondering if it would be possible to use the same core for the footnote templates. I envision {{ Family name footnote}}, which would reference the same core code for generating the text as this template, but just wrap it in a footnote rather than a hatnote.
It looks like the hatnote itself is currently in {{ family name hatnote/core}}, though, so I'm not sure if there's a way to do that currently. Do you know if we might be able to shift anything around to make that possible? {{u| Sdkb}} talk 21:23, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
|textonly=yes
parameter, but with your idea, the explanation template could just be invoked directly.Hi, with Macau names, the given name is not usually hyphenated. However, there appears to be an error with the output of this template in the article of Edmund Ho:
In this article, the surname is Ho. In accordance with Macau custom, the Western-style name is Edmund and the Chinese-style name is Hau Wah.
The Western-style name should be Edmund Ho, and the Chinese-style name should be Ho Hau Wah. WikiEditor50 ( talk) 14:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
2=
or 3=
, so it doesn't output. You could add "Ho" to the second and third fields to get the output you're looking for:{{family name hatnote|1=[[He (surname)|Ho]]|2=Edmund Ho|3=Ho Hau Wah|lang=Macau}}
I've noticed this to go against WP:HATEXTRA - there's links to multiple items. It's especially odd to see links to generic terms like surname, which goes against WP:OVERLINK. As it's been like this for many years, I'm wary of just going ahead and changing it. What would be the reason to keep the extraneous links? -- Joy ( talk) 14:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Too many links can make the lead hard to read. In technical articles that use uncommon terms, a higher-than-usual link density in the lead section may be necessary.
The purpose of a hatnote is to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for.
Each additional link in the hatnote besides the ambiguous or confusable topic(s) makes it more difficult to find the desired target.
lang=
to determine how the hatnote is phrased and to link to the relevant article on naming conventions. The linking of the surname is the editor's decision I was referring to. In that specific case,
Chinese surname should probably be the link for "Chinese name" since the hatnote is about surnames. lang=Chinese Indonesian
has a similar issue.makes it more difficult to find the desired target" doesn't apply. I see this hatnote as a bit of helpful info that sets the reader up for expectations of how the person will be referred to in the article. The links are there to help someone who might be unfamiliar with language/country/culture's the naming conventions. If there were no links in the hatnote, would the problem still exist for you? —Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 12:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Are we going to try to fold Template:Portuguese name into this scheme? Mathglot ( talk) 01:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
When lang=Mongolaian and the second parameter is not given, the template displays "There is neither a patronymic nor a family name." Is it too arbitrary to say so? Maybe the person does have a patronymic name, but is unknown to public. It would be more accurate to say "There is neither a patronymic nor a family name in the title of this page." -- 小林子冲 ( talk) 21:36, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
The hatnote, when set for Catalan, used to include generally joined by the conjunction "i"
(or similar) at the end, and at some point recently this was removed. Is there a reason for that?
Kingsif (
talk) 03:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Not really"generally" connected by i, and that changing the note to "sometimes" isn't worth it.
generally joined by the conjunction "i"from the Catalan family name hatnote: was that the right decision, or not? (Other issues, like whether there should be separate entries for Spanish or Catalan should be raised separately.) Imho, it was the right decision, for two reasons:
a bit of helpful info that sets the reader up for expectations of how the person will be referred to in the article.
In these three examples, which is better: #1, or #2?
{{Family name explanation|van Gogh|Gogh|lang=Dutch}}
:
{{Family name explanation|Beauvoir|lang=French}}
:
{{Family name explanation|
al-Assad|lang=Arabic}}
:
Number 1 is better in all three cases. There is no reason to include extraneous information that, while certainly very interesting, is already explained at the linked articles Dutch name, French name, and Arabic name. At the top of an article, it is just bloat, and redundant bloat at that. I would have no problem with adding a #Terminology or #Onomastics section to all three articles, in which the #2 version could be added, and expanded upon if desired. But it does not belong in a hatnote. Mathglot ( talk) 23:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
...if you don't see issues stemming from your change as a "compelling reason", it is because you are choosing not to.
I also think you're suggesting an RfC to prolong this process...
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk ·
contribs) wants to offer a
third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
The dispute stems from @
Mathglot: having removed the acknowledgement that Catalan surnames (when written in full) are joined by i in the language-specific surname hatnote – ostensibly because they think it is inaccurate based on an English-language Wikipedia search, and for brevity – and then another user removed the hatnote from an article where both it and the acknowledgement of i were relevant, because of the change.
While I have asked for suggestions on improving the hatnote that do not have to say the i is common and which can be shorter, or even optional (addressing the concerns), Mathglot has shunned any attempt at discussion and instead simply tried to defend why they made the original edit and say it should stand. I do not know why they have refused to discuss other options even when I have outlined one and asked them explicitly to respond, but at least they have sought 3O.
Kingsif (
talk) 17:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Viewpoint on hatnotes purpose - perhaps relevant
|
---|
As I understand it, hatnote name templates serve two primary purposes: to identify the name an article subject will be identified as throughout the article, and to clarify for readers who have expectations of English names any differences. |
It's about whether the {{ Family name hatnote}} that appears page-top on some biographies of Catalan people ( category, list) should contain a clause explaining the meaning of the conjunction "i" seen in some Catalan names. (That's a summary of the content dispute; this is my first time with 3O; am I supposed to give an argument here in favor of some position? Mathglot ( talk) 18:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC))
contain a clause explaining the meaning of the conjunction "i", nor has the hatnote ever contained an explanation of what i means (just that it is there) so that cannot be the dispute. With this established, are you now open to discussion? Kingsif ( talk) 21:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I don't think I can resolve this dispute so I'll be relisting it at WP:Third opinion. Thanks to both editors for their summaries, I'm sure they will be useful for whoever does respond to this. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
3O Response: As it seems this is not a universal or even near-universal practice in Catalan names, I don't think the template should always or by default include it, as when the text appears where the convention is not used that could be confusing to the reader and in any case is unnecessary. However, is there any reason it would not be acceptable to include an optional parameter, defaulting to "no", which could be set to display the explanatory text on articles for people whose names do use this convention? It seems to me that might be the best solution. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
, which are joined by i.Kingsif ( talk) 23:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
; theseat the start, it doesn't follow). In terms of Pujol, interesting choice. His name is Jordi Pujol i Soley, which even Spanish Wikipedia and Simple English Wikipedia have, and yet English Wikipedia does not. I am not going to get into other issues, but for a long time there have been concerted efforts to de-Catalan Wikipedia, especially in terms of Catalan politicians, and the fact the lead of his article only calls him Spanish despite being the president of Catalonia… yeah. So first I would update the name in the article, and then the note would read in full:
is stating the obviousand that one can see it
just from looking at [the name]— the same can be said of everything included in all of the hatnotes. You can look at the written surname and see, look, there is the name. The reason to include the note is, as I've said, because readers unfamiliar with Catalan names will not know if the i is a typo, if it's an attachment of the first/second surname, or whatever else. (As with the Dutch van note, it is to make clear "this belongs in the name" and to establish the relationship between it and the other elements.) Or; if a reader is somewhat familiar with how Catalan names are written they will already know that there are two surnames and these are joined by i — but the mere existence of the hatnote presumes that the average reader is not familiar. They will "just look" at two surnames and an i and not know what's going on at all, or make inaccurate assumptions based on their experience with English names. Why would we clarify some of the surname elements, but not all of them? The i is as much a part of the surname as any other element and should be clarified in the hatnote; the hatnote's main purpose is providing clarity, so there is no reason to exclude a clarifying note. Kingsif ( talk) 02:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
No, that is the whole point of the hatnote: you cannot tell what is there without the hatnoteThis was literally my point, if you didn't read the rest of my comment. I almost said the same verbatim. Please, read. We have a hatnote because we presume readers do not know how foreign language names are constructed. If we are presuming that, why would you then presume that just by looking at the name readers will know what the i is? Or that it's not worth mentioning because they can click on the language link - which, yeah, they could for any other element of the name and so the hatnote would entirely be redundant. I didn't want this to be long, but to address your thoughts that, in my view, are flawed (I thought that what I am about to say was a clear implication from my last comment, but making it fully clear now): if someone is only familiar with English surnames, they would most likely see "Francesc Pi i Margall" and not know what is what at all. So we tell them both Pi and Margall are surnames. That is something different to their expectations and it has not addressed every word there; with no knowledge of Catalan, they have no expectation or idea of what the i is or if it is supposed to be there. We cannot assume that a reader, who knows so little about the language to need to be told what the surnames are, will make any assumptions (however logical it seems to us) about the rest of the surname. For someone with no prior knowledge of Catalan names, the thought "oh so if those are the two separate surnames (a brand new concept), that random 'i' is clearly there to join them, makes sense" is not a natural thought pattern. Without mentioning it, we are leaving the reader with more questions. Does that make sense or do we have to repeat ourselves some more? Kingsif ( talk) 14:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)