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The result of the move request was: moved, new template, seems uncontroversial billinghurst sDrewth 03:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC) billinghurst sDrewth 03:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Template:Ety →
Template:Etymology — As a result of discussion at
Wikipedia:Requested templates#Etymology, first {{
etymology}}
was created and then {{
ety}}
as an alternative implementation. As there seems to be a consensus that this template is better, I think this one should be moved to the proper name (along with all subpages).
Svick (
talk)
16:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety/List}}
deserves to be a template in its own right instead of a subtemplate. I'd suggest {{
Enum}}
(for enumerate) as it is not used and relatively brief name. ({{
Enumerate}}
could be a redirect, or vice versa).
Si Trew (
talk)
07:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC){{Enum}}
and subpages thereof, since I think that is uncontroversial. So now the "Ety" hierarchy comprises only itself, its doc and subpages, and those for "Ety/Part".{{Ety}}
stays where it is and {{Etymology}}
becomes a redirect to it.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)With consent, this discussion has been moved from WP:RT, where it was listed and gave birth to this template. Si Trew ( talk) 08:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
There is a great deal of variation in the way Wikipedia articles display etymology, both in style and placement. I recommend the creation of a new template, as well as guidelines for it's use. Specifically, I think that the guideline should be to place the etymology in the opening paragraph of each article (like you might find in a dictionary), and the template should simplify the process into language-word-meaning format. Here are a few examples, showing the current versions, followed by my recommendation:
All these are single-language, two-word examples. There are also words that are derived from more than one language (or more than 2 words). For example,
sociology (from
Latin socius, meaning 'companion', and
Greek -λογία (-logia), meaning 'study of-'), (don't quote me on that!) in which case a language-word-meaning-language-word-meaning... format would be necessary. It's hard to come up with a mark-up format, especially considering that I'm not really sure how templates work, but there it is. I've said what I wanted to say. Sorry for the long-winded post, or if this is in the wrong place - you know how it is! Best of luck to whomever takes the baton. :)
Nagualdesign ( talk) 04:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
etymology}}
.
Svick (
talk)
15:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)As per Intelligentsium's recommendation, I have moved the formatting standards part of this discussion over to the Manual of Style talk page. Please leave comments on that page, unless you wish discuss Svick's template here. Nagualdesign ( talk) 00:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
{{etymology|fr|coffee}}
{{etymology|fr|café}}
{{etymology|fr}}
{{etymology|de|uber|over|Hase}}
).
Svick (
talk)
17:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)So would we all agree that adopting a single "Many Word Parts, Many Languages" parameter format, and allowing fields to be left blank, and extraneous fields at the end to be omitted, would simplify the whole process?
ie, {{etymology|lang1|word1|meaning1|lang2|word2|meaning2|lang3|word3|meaning3|..ad nauseum}}
Provided that the user sticks to groups of 3 parameters, that is! (4, 7, 10, 13 or 16 should suffice). Basically, I'm saying let's get rid of the current "Two Word Parts, One Language" mark-up. Do enter a second language, just don't display it if it's the same as the first. one before it.
eg, {{etymology|grc|βίος (bios)|life|grc|-λογία (-logia)|study of-}}
~ (from
Ancient Greek βίος (bios), meaning "life", and -λογία (-logia), meaning "study of-")
Nagualdesign (
talk)
04:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I've been trying to find a good, real-world example to sum up everything. It's no easy task, I'm sure you'll agree, but here's a nice little one:
The ngoja kidogo bush (from Swahili ngoja, meaning "wait", kidogo, meaning "a little", and bush), or Wait-a-bit thorn bush, is the common name for several species of Acacia, including Acacia brevispica, Acacia colletioides, Acacia cuspidifolia and Acacia greggii...
For which the etymology code would be: {{etymology|swahili|ngoja|wait|swahili|kidogo|a little||bush|}}
I'm not sure what the code for Swahili is, and the bush bit is probably unnecessary, really, but you get the gist.
Nagualdesign ( talk) 06:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
to disable the parens, quotation marks, or both.Taking note of the points raised above, I have created an alternative implementation at {{
Ety}}
and subtemplates, of which {{
Ety/Part}}
is substantially "borrowed" from {{
Etymology}}
; the other two parts are {{
Ety/List}}
and {{
Ety/ListItem}}
which construct lists separated by commas and " and ".
I think this nicely separates the two concerns of making an etymology for a "part" and constructing the list of those parts.
Its main incompatibility with the existing {{
Etymology}}
is the case of "two parts, same language", which in {{Ety}}
requires an extra blank parameter. This could, of course, be made a special case (check if there are exactly five parameters), but I am not sure that is worthwhile or even useful to do, considering the questions asked above: keeping it to three parameters for each part makes it regular, and so perhaps easier to remember the syntax, at the expense of having to specify blank parameters.
{{Ety}}
currently handles up to four "parts" but, as a cursory look at the implementation will reveal, it could easily be expanded to handle up to eight, or beyond. Eight seems to be a kinda "magic number" with templates designed to handle arbitrary numbers of parameters, so I've followed that lead for that in {{List}}
(but Ety only handles four at the moment: I can't really imagine many words would have more than four parts to their etymology, at least not without needing further explanation (
floccinaucinihilipilification, for example)).
All the templates have documentation and test cases, although I know some don't like the style that I write that in. For me it is clear, but then I'm a computer programmer.
The named parameters in Ety/List are not implemented yet; I had trouble correctly not passing them down to the child Ety/ListItem if they are not present. As regulars here no doubt know (and I only half-know), leading and trailing spaces are handled differently (not stripped) for named parameters and this can lead to fun when passing them down to subtemlates; my attempts were not successful so I gave up for now; I've done it on templates elsewhere but can't remember where. To that end, I am somewhat amazed there is not a "List of items" template in general, since it would be very handy as a helper for all kinds of templates, but I can't find one. I think I should check 'my' {{Time of day in words}}
which I think uses that technique, and try again, but for now I can live without it.
My aim of all this, then, is by decoupling "list" from "etymology of part" we can discuss one without the other. Please do accept this is not an attempt at subversion or "I can do better than you" but to give us all a different implementation so we can refine any requirements we have.
I realise at this stage it may be better to take this discussion to one of the two templates' talk pages; I'll happily redirect Template Talk:Ety to [[Template Talk::Etymology]] if you want.
As always, I apologies for making this way too long, a bad habit of mine.
Best wishes Si Trew ( talk) 10:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
Number to word}}
so I might try to get those working, it does make it more verbose though.
Si Trew (
talk)
16:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC){{
Ety/List}}
template "should" pipe through a named parameter "and" which allows you to set it to whatever you like (specifically to allow you to set it to a comma, or not), but I haven't implemented that fully yet.
Si Trew (
talk)
12:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC){{#if}}
are especially useful here). But if you are used to programming in any sane language, you will be probably surprised how limited and “hacky” the system is.
Svick (
talk)
23:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)RE: "The {{
Ety/List}}
template "should" pipe through a named parameter "and" which allows you to set it to whatever you like" (by
Si Trew)
The original reason for me requesting this template was because of the various ways in which people have written in-line etymologies. Some use "+", some use "&", different parts are variously italicized, placed within 'single quotes', some "double quotes"... I could go on. My point is that we are here to simplify and standardize. The style we have been using seems to capture the best qualities of readability, so why allow the user to set parts of that format to whatever they like? If the user wishes to, they can of course hard-code the whole thing, write an entire etymology subsection, include date of first use (although
WP:NOTDICT, remember), et cetera. In short, and without wishing to sound contrary, I think this template may begin suffering from
creeping featuritis if we are not careful to reel ourselves in. I think that what we have achieved here is great, but perhaps it is time to put this discussion to bed, so we can start implementing it within the article pages. What say you?
Kind regards,
Nagualdesign (
talk)
14:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
to allow the "and" to be set; but {{Ety/List}}
is more general and the only reason I've made it a subtemplate is that I imagine another already exists that does its job, but I can't find one. So I might make List a top-level template, and in that more general case I think that the and= parameter is more useful.{{
ety}}
(along with all the subpages) over {{
etymology}}
, so I
requested the move. {{ety}}
can be left as a redirect.
Svick (
talk)
16:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC){{BASEPAGENAME}}
so that when moved there's no need to change them. However I can't seem to do that to have "relative references" in {{Ety}}
itself (and possibly {{Ety/List}}
too) since references are relative to the transcluding page, not the template itself. I have tried various ways around that without success; I would have thought there was a way, because it's pretty obvious one wants to build up a subtree in this manner, but I can't find one. "../somewhere" seems to work but not just "/somewhere". If you know of a way, fixing {{Ety}}
to do it that way would be useful. ("./somewhere"?)
Si Trew (
talk)
07:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Here's some examples that are mentioned above. They might be useful in the doc:
I do note the parentheses here are perhaps ugly; but all kinds of other things would suffer that fate (e.g. a place's toponymy + pronunciation, a person's dates of birth/death + pronunciation, and so on). Si Trew ( talk) 08:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of changing the way {{Ety}}
(with {{Ety/Part}}
) implements the parenthetical "meaning" part. The fact is, at least to my eyes, the comma is only needed if the meaning is present AND there is another part afterwards. So we expect:
This is how I interpret User:Svick's desire for parenthesis of the meaning (and follows the general rules for using commas for parentheses).
To do this I've changed {{
Enum/Item}}
to have " and " without the comma as the default. I could pipe this through anyway (setting the and= parameter of the transclusion {{
Enum}}
), but more properly we don't want "A, and B" in the general case. Then, in {{
Ety/Part}}
a fourth parameter can be passed to indicate if there is another part coming afterwards (since we don't want the comma if we're going to close the whole etymology with a closing paren). All we do here is pipe the first parameter of the next "triple", which may or may not be present. And job's a good 'un.
Hope this all makes sense and you agree it's better for the general case (i.e. no comma when no meaning). To write "(from French, and English)" for example, would look strange to me.
On a minor point I notice the doc was changed somewhere from "parentheses" to "brackets", personally I prefer to use (parentheses), [brackets], and {braces} as terms for those, but I realise different distinctions are made in different subject areas.
Best wishes Si Trew ( talk) 08:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
expected the first parameter of each treble to be non-empty were it to be processed. I've changed that so it processes it, via {{Ety/Part}}
, if any part of the treble is non-empty. That's as it should be.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)With consent, can I now move this discussion to Template Talk:Ety? Thanks. Si Trew ( talk) 09:02, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. Definately, yes to the above. I like the Examples too - much better for the /doc than the word "example". And the other examples ("portmanteau" and such) are exactly the kind of thing I was struggling to put my finger on with regards to the comma-and thing. Another
bullseye! Although I don't understand half of the technical details that you stated, I'm glad that you've explained them. Might help me make sense of the {{{{millions}}}} {{{{{{of}}}}{{{{brackets}}}}}}
in the code! ..So aye lad, tha's got my vote. Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
01:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
End of discussion before I moved it here. Si Trew ( talk) 08:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to be a stickler, but after all that we've said and agreed the template doesn't quite seem to work. Looking at the Examples posted above, only the first implementation of Ngoja kidogo bush is rendered correctly (using the dreaded comma-and). At the time of writing all of the other examples which include a meaning, followed by another word-part in an 'undisclosed' language, are not showing a comma. I hope this little bug is a worthy opponent to one of you (that means you,
Si and
Svick - your kung fu is strong!) ...I myself will only be cheering from the sidelines. ;)
Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
23:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
to {{Ety/Part}}
to indicate that there is any part following (i.e. any of them can be non-empty, not just the first one, to indicate a follow-on). The small change in {{
Ety/Part}}
(
here) is all that seems to be necessary.{{Enum}}
which I'd not updated to specify the new default for " and ".
Si Trew (
talk)
08:28, 7 July 2010 (UTC){{Ety/Part}}
needs to know "am I going to be followed by at least two more things" to suppress the comma (if it's put out a meaning). I think that's all. But that's essentially what {{Enum/Item}}
does anyway, so it might be redundant to use {{Enum}}
at all. Which does not mean to say splitting it was worthless, but for this special case we might as well essentially implement the logic in {{Enum/Part}}
instead of attempting to defer it (via {{Enum}}
to {{Enum/Item}}
and effectively coupling them anwyay via kinda "hidden" parameters.
Si Trew (
talk)
15:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)...Okay, maybe not tough, but certainly slippery. How about this (in a readable language I sort of made up):
if (!1 & !2) { return "error message"; stop; }
(One 'section' per 'triplet')
return "(from ";
if (1) return ISOlang(1);
if (1 & 2) return " ";
if (2) return "''",2,"''";
if (3) return ", meaning "",3,""";
if (!5) { return ")"; stop; }
if (5 & 8) return ", ";
if (3 & 5 & !8) return ",";
if (5 & !8) return " and ";
if (4) return ISOlang(4);
if (4 & 5) return " ";
if (5) return "''",5,"''";
if (6) return ", meaning "",6,""";
if (!8) { return ")"; stop; }
if (8 & 11) return ", ";
if (6 & 8 & !11) return ",";
if (8 & !11) return " and ";
etc...
nagualdesign (
talk)
16:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
if (1 & 2) return " ";
'fixed' the problem before it became one. How's about writing it up for us? :)
nagualdesign (
talk)
19:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC){{
ety}}
or {{
etymology}}
. It works just like my faux-code above, with very minor tweeking. Ta-da! ;)
nagualdesign (
talk)
00:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC) ...I've still got it!if ((1) or (2)) {
return "from";
<?-- for each triplet... -->
if (1) return " ",ISOlang(1);
if (2) return " ''",2,"''";
if (3) return ", meaning "",3,""";
if ((4) or (5)) {
:if ((7) or (8)) return ",";
else {
if (3) return ",";
return " and";
}
}
<?-- ...add on 3s each time -->
}
else return "error message";
Nice work there getting it how you wanted. It seems like trying to separate responsibility to {{
Enum}}
was overdoing it in the end; but it's through the work of all three of us that we get to a stable and maintainable solution; although the template is long it is quite clear that it is just a repeat for each part, since (as you can see) we can't do loops in templates (we can't do recursion either to get the same effect) so the repetition is inevitable and it seems to me the obvious thing is to make it quite clear the pattern of loop unrolling, which you have done.
I'm still not sure it works properly for the case "From French and English":
from French and English from French quelquechose 'anything', and English
bizarrely it does work if anything is given after the "en":
from French and English anything from French quelquechose and English anything from French quelquechose 'anything', and English anything
which suggests that the if-statements are not correctly nested.
However there comes a point at which one can classify that as improper use, as you have done. Si Trew ( talk) 14:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
{{
ISO 639 name}}
for "
Germanic languages", unfortunately: this just sticks "ic" on the end of "German", so it pipes to
German language, as you see.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)RE: In any case, as you see with anniversary, we don't handle chaining etymologies very well. (
Si Trew)
Since it's inception our template has used the format (from ...), which looks great but does not, as you say, handle chaining etymologies. Looking at how the compound pronunciation works, where the outer parens (and the "or") are always hard-coded by the user (and, it seems, never missed), I was wondering if it would be a good idea to change {{etymology}}
to match. So we'd have:
Anniversary (from
Latin anniversarius, meaning "returning annually"; from annus, meaning "year", and versus, meaning "to turn")
'''Anniversary''' ({{etymology|la|anniversarius|returning annually}}; {{etymology||annus|year||versus|to turn}})
Although I still think pronunciation and etymology should be remain separated, using the format (pron) (ety).
I'd be happy to change all the examples and wotnot myself if there is a consensus.
Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
17:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Cool. Now we can say, antidisestablishmentarianism (from anti- 'against', and disestablishmentarianism; from disestablish 'to deprive of special state patronage', and establishment ' The Church of England') ...Still a bit ugly, but a vast improvement! Kind regards, nagualdesign ( talk) 05:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that the etymology template now accepts proper (full) language names, so {{etymology|french}}
is no longer an Invalid Example, and I have removed it. However, the documentation currently reads:
...And I am unsure how to re-word it as I can't comprehend {{Iso2language}}
, {{Iso2lang}}
or {{ISO 639 name|}}
. Any suggestions?
nagualdesign (
talk)
00:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
This template was mentioned on the talk page for WikiProject Linguistics as something that should be applied more widely to etymologies in articles. I have added many etymologies to articles, and there is an issue with the template that I immediately noticed upon looking at the documentation: it applies italics to all foreign terms. Foreign terms in a non-Latin alphabet should not be italicized ( MOS:Ety), so there needs to be a way to specify non-italicization for Greek and Arabic etymons, for example, before this template can be more widely implemented. I'm not interested in making this change myself, but this is just a note on what should be done. — Eru· tuon 22:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
{{ety||''銀果'' (yínguǒ)|silver fruit}}
yields, from 銀果 (yínguǒ) 'silver fruit'. Is that acceptable? Regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
02:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC){{
lang}}
must surely serve as the canonical example here; but this template has no translations on other Wikipedias, so there is no chance to compare. In many other Wikipedias, there are translated templates, some of which use the English names and some of which put them in their own language; there are also templates made independently which serve the same purpose by different routes, but are linked because of their semantics rather than their surface grammars.
Si Trew (
talk)
23:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)One possibility would be to decide this based on the language parameter. If it's a language that uses the Latin script, it will be italicized and not otherwise. One problem could be with languages that use both Latin and non-Latin scripts, like Serbian. User<Svick>. Talk() ; 20:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
{{|{{is-latin||myparameter}}}}
. Then in {{|is-latin}}
, which should fall within the ISO-lang kinda category templates, would return a boolean value, e.g. empty string if latin alphabet, and non-empty string (such as the parameter itself) if not. {{add-eyeties}}
then adds the
italics if the third parameter to it is not empty. {{is-latin}}
would just be an enormous switch statement, i.e. a map. A map with encoded knowledge that already exists in most font systems,
Unicode, and in the Wikimedia software itself of course, but there is nothing quite like conquering the known.I attempted to use this template today for Old Javanese and {{etymology|kaw|nūsa|island}} results in "from Kawi nūsa 'island'" - which, incidentally, is a redirect to the Siouan language known as Kansa (code KSK). HALP. Ogress smash! 06:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to update this template to be consistent with MOS:SINGLE, introduced sometime in the last couple years, which specifies single quotation marks for glosses. Thoughts? Ibadibam ( talk) 17:47, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I believe it is not standard in Wikipedia to provide "invalid examples" that result in actual errors in the template. I don't think we need an example showing five parameters instead of six, with the fourth parameter omitted and not just blank. Nobody would do that, and if anyone did, it would be really obvious. I don't believe we need an example with the surrounding parentheses omitted. I don't believe we need an example with both language and orthography omitted. In any case, I believe that invalid calls to this template, if we must have them, should be entered only within <nowiki>...</nowiki>
, so the errors aren't executed and the page does not appear on
Lint errors: Misnested tag with different rendering in HTML5 and HTML4 and
Lint errors: Stripped tags. —
Anomalocaris (
talk)
04:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I only realized today that this template has been broken since January. Perhaps it's time to add template protection. nagual design 22:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Anomalocaris: As you know, the template was broken from mid-January until the other day. Omitting the language code would have thrown up a visible error. I've encountered a couple of pages now where someone has evidently 'fixed' the error by repeating the language code, as in: Panspermia (from Ancient Greek πᾶν (pan) 'all', and Ancient Greek σπέρμα (sperma) 'seed')... I'd like to correct this by removing the repeated code on any pages where this fix was made. Is there any way you can help me find the pages where the etymology was bodged like this, using your Jedi powers? nagual design 23:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The name derives {{etymology|ko|Gyeongsang|joyous furthermore}}; {{etymology||gyeong ''(Korean {{linktext|경|}}, Hanja {{linktext|慶}})''​|happy||sang ''(Korean {{linktext|상|}}, Hanja {{linktext|尚|}})''​|still more}}.
{{
Etymology}}
, and hasn't recently ... ? —
Anomalocaris (
talk)
01:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
There are two problems I can see with this template — one has a workaround but the other doesn't. Neither is a world-changing deal-breaker, but it would be good to get them fixed.
The first is that we don't apply language tagging, which is recommended by the Manual of Style (see MOS:LANG) That would be relatively simple to do, but would involve adding another #if parser function per triplet, which doesn't feel like the best idea. The second is that italics are automatically applied — and need to be worked around for non- Latin languages.
Module:Lang, as invoked from Template:Lang, handles both of these things, and Lua can do a simpler job at nullity-checking. I might take a look at working out how to do this myself, but someone with Lua skills already might be beat me to it :)
— OwenBlacker ( talk) 13:14, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps each orthography could have a built in link to Wiktionary if the page exists? I'm not sure if it's possible to test whether a page exists beforehand. Apologies if this should be located at the Village Pump rather than here on the talk page. Zumley ( talk) 21:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This template has a function similar similar to
Template:Lang. That template has a option to suppress the wikilinking of the the language name (|links=no
). This option should be included with
Template:Etymology.
Senator2029
“Talk”
01:17, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
This template takes language codes, but isn't actually marking up the relevant text with it. For example, if the first parameter was "grc" for Ancient Greek, the Greek text should be wrapped in <span lang="grc"></span>
.
Opencooper (
talk)
01:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
class="gloss-quot"
and class="gloss-text"
)lang="grc-Latn"
. So maybe we should make another template that has a transliteration parameter. As a plus, it could automatically avoid italicizing the word if a transliteration is given.{{ety-translit|grc|ἄρθρον|arthron|joint}}
from {{ISO 639 name|grc|link=yes}} {{lang|grc|ἄρθρον}} ({{translit|grc|arthron}}) {{gloss|joint}}
from Ancient Greek ἄρθρον (arthron) 'joint'
In Chondrichthyes, the template yields the following result:
from Ancient Greek χόνδρος (khóndros) 'cartilage', and ἰχθύς (ikhthús) 'fish'
Clearly, the comma before "and" is incorrect in this case, given that 'cartilage'
isn't a parenthetical remark and isn't introduced with a starting comma – unlike , meaning "cartilage",
. --
Florian Blaschke (
talk)
06:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Template:Ety2 has been
nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the entry on the Templates for discussion page.
--
65.92.247.66 (
talk)
00:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: moved, new template, seems uncontroversial billinghurst sDrewth 03:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC) billinghurst sDrewth 03:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Template:Ety →
Template:Etymology — As a result of discussion at
Wikipedia:Requested templates#Etymology, first {{
etymology}}
was created and then {{
ety}}
as an alternative implementation. As there seems to be a consensus that this template is better, I think this one should be moved to the proper name (along with all subpages).
Svick (
talk)
16:35, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety/List}}
deserves to be a template in its own right instead of a subtemplate. I'd suggest {{
Enum}}
(for enumerate) as it is not used and relatively brief name. ({{
Enumerate}}
could be a redirect, or vice versa).
Si Trew (
talk)
07:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC){{Enum}}
and subpages thereof, since I think that is uncontroversial. So now the "Ety" hierarchy comprises only itself, its doc and subpages, and those for "Ety/Part".{{Ety}}
stays where it is and {{Etymology}}
becomes a redirect to it.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)With consent, this discussion has been moved from WP:RT, where it was listed and gave birth to this template. Si Trew ( talk) 08:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
There is a great deal of variation in the way Wikipedia articles display etymology, both in style and placement. I recommend the creation of a new template, as well as guidelines for it's use. Specifically, I think that the guideline should be to place the etymology in the opening paragraph of each article (like you might find in a dictionary), and the template should simplify the process into language-word-meaning format. Here are a few examples, showing the current versions, followed by my recommendation:
All these are single-language, two-word examples. There are also words that are derived from more than one language (or more than 2 words). For example,
sociology (from
Latin socius, meaning 'companion', and
Greek -λογία (-logia), meaning 'study of-'), (don't quote me on that!) in which case a language-word-meaning-language-word-meaning... format would be necessary. It's hard to come up with a mark-up format, especially considering that I'm not really sure how templates work, but there it is. I've said what I wanted to say. Sorry for the long-winded post, or if this is in the wrong place - you know how it is! Best of luck to whomever takes the baton. :)
Nagualdesign ( talk) 04:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
etymology}}
.
Svick (
talk)
15:25, 24 June 2010 (UTC)As per Intelligentsium's recommendation, I have moved the formatting standards part of this discussion over to the Manual of Style talk page. Please leave comments on that page, unless you wish discuss Svick's template here. Nagualdesign ( talk) 00:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
{{etymology|fr|coffee}}
{{etymology|fr|café}}
{{etymology|fr}}
{{etymology|de|uber|over|Hase}}
).
Svick (
talk)
17:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)So would we all agree that adopting a single "Many Word Parts, Many Languages" parameter format, and allowing fields to be left blank, and extraneous fields at the end to be omitted, would simplify the whole process?
ie, {{etymology|lang1|word1|meaning1|lang2|word2|meaning2|lang3|word3|meaning3|..ad nauseum}}
Provided that the user sticks to groups of 3 parameters, that is! (4, 7, 10, 13 or 16 should suffice). Basically, I'm saying let's get rid of the current "Two Word Parts, One Language" mark-up. Do enter a second language, just don't display it if it's the same as the first. one before it.
eg, {{etymology|grc|βίος (bios)|life|grc|-λογία (-logia)|study of-}}
~ (from
Ancient Greek βίος (bios), meaning "life", and -λογία (-logia), meaning "study of-")
Nagualdesign (
talk)
04:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I've been trying to find a good, real-world example to sum up everything. It's no easy task, I'm sure you'll agree, but here's a nice little one:
The ngoja kidogo bush (from Swahili ngoja, meaning "wait", kidogo, meaning "a little", and bush), or Wait-a-bit thorn bush, is the common name for several species of Acacia, including Acacia brevispica, Acacia colletioides, Acacia cuspidifolia and Acacia greggii...
For which the etymology code would be: {{etymology|swahili|ngoja|wait|swahili|kidogo|a little||bush|}}
I'm not sure what the code for Swahili is, and the bush bit is probably unnecessary, really, but you get the gist.
Nagualdesign ( talk) 06:24, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
to disable the parens, quotation marks, or both.Taking note of the points raised above, I have created an alternative implementation at {{
Ety}}
and subtemplates, of which {{
Ety/Part}}
is substantially "borrowed" from {{
Etymology}}
; the other two parts are {{
Ety/List}}
and {{
Ety/ListItem}}
which construct lists separated by commas and " and ".
I think this nicely separates the two concerns of making an etymology for a "part" and constructing the list of those parts.
Its main incompatibility with the existing {{
Etymology}}
is the case of "two parts, same language", which in {{Ety}}
requires an extra blank parameter. This could, of course, be made a special case (check if there are exactly five parameters), but I am not sure that is worthwhile or even useful to do, considering the questions asked above: keeping it to three parameters for each part makes it regular, and so perhaps easier to remember the syntax, at the expense of having to specify blank parameters.
{{Ety}}
currently handles up to four "parts" but, as a cursory look at the implementation will reveal, it could easily be expanded to handle up to eight, or beyond. Eight seems to be a kinda "magic number" with templates designed to handle arbitrary numbers of parameters, so I've followed that lead for that in {{List}}
(but Ety only handles four at the moment: I can't really imagine many words would have more than four parts to their etymology, at least not without needing further explanation (
floccinaucinihilipilification, for example)).
All the templates have documentation and test cases, although I know some don't like the style that I write that in. For me it is clear, but then I'm a computer programmer.
The named parameters in Ety/List are not implemented yet; I had trouble correctly not passing them down to the child Ety/ListItem if they are not present. As regulars here no doubt know (and I only half-know), leading and trailing spaces are handled differently (not stripped) for named parameters and this can lead to fun when passing them down to subtemlates; my attempts were not successful so I gave up for now; I've done it on templates elsewhere but can't remember where. To that end, I am somewhat amazed there is not a "List of items" template in general, since it would be very handy as a helper for all kinds of templates, but I can't find one. I think I should check 'my' {{Time of day in words}}
which I think uses that technique, and try again, but for now I can live without it.
My aim of all this, then, is by decoupling "list" from "etymology of part" we can discuss one without the other. Please do accept this is not an attempt at subversion or "I can do better than you" but to give us all a different implementation so we can refine any requirements we have.
I realise at this stage it may be better to take this discussion to one of the two templates' talk pages; I'll happily redirect Template Talk:Ety to [[Template Talk::Etymology]] if you want.
As always, I apologies for making this way too long, a bad habit of mine.
Best wishes Si Trew ( talk) 10:02, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
Number to word}}
so I might try to get those working, it does make it more verbose though.
Si Trew (
talk)
16:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC){{
Ety/List}}
template "should" pipe through a named parameter "and" which allows you to set it to whatever you like (specifically to allow you to set it to a comma, or not), but I haven't implemented that fully yet.
Si Trew (
talk)
12:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC){{#if}}
are especially useful here). But if you are used to programming in any sane language, you will be probably surprised how limited and “hacky” the system is.
Svick (
talk)
23:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)RE: "The {{
Ety/List}}
template "should" pipe through a named parameter "and" which allows you to set it to whatever you like" (by
Si Trew)
The original reason for me requesting this template was because of the various ways in which people have written in-line etymologies. Some use "+", some use "&", different parts are variously italicized, placed within 'single quotes', some "double quotes"... I could go on. My point is that we are here to simplify and standardize. The style we have been using seems to capture the best qualities of readability, so why allow the user to set parts of that format to whatever they like? If the user wishes to, they can of course hard-code the whole thing, write an entire etymology subsection, include date of first use (although
WP:NOTDICT, remember), et cetera. In short, and without wishing to sound contrary, I think this template may begin suffering from
creeping featuritis if we are not careful to reel ourselves in. I think that what we have achieved here is great, but perhaps it is time to put this discussion to bed, so we can start implementing it within the article pages. What say you?
Kind regards,
Nagualdesign (
talk)
14:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
to allow the "and" to be set; but {{Ety/List}}
is more general and the only reason I've made it a subtemplate is that I imagine another already exists that does its job, but I can't find one. So I might make List a top-level template, and in that more general case I think that the and= parameter is more useful.{{
ety}}
(along with all the subpages) over {{
etymology}}
, so I
requested the move. {{ety}}
can be left as a redirect.
Svick (
talk)
16:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC){{BASEPAGENAME}}
so that when moved there's no need to change them. However I can't seem to do that to have "relative references" in {{Ety}}
itself (and possibly {{Ety/List}}
too) since references are relative to the transcluding page, not the template itself. I have tried various ways around that without success; I would have thought there was a way, because it's pretty obvious one wants to build up a subtree in this manner, but I can't find one. "../somewhere" seems to work but not just "/somewhere". If you know of a way, fixing {{Ety}}
to do it that way would be useful. ("./somewhere"?)
Si Trew (
talk)
07:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)Here's some examples that are mentioned above. They might be useful in the doc:
I do note the parentheses here are perhaps ugly; but all kinds of other things would suffer that fate (e.g. a place's toponymy + pronunciation, a person's dates of birth/death + pronunciation, and so on). Si Trew ( talk) 08:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty of changing the way {{Ety}}
(with {{Ety/Part}}
) implements the parenthetical "meaning" part. The fact is, at least to my eyes, the comma is only needed if the meaning is present AND there is another part afterwards. So we expect:
This is how I interpret User:Svick's desire for parenthesis of the meaning (and follows the general rules for using commas for parentheses).
To do this I've changed {{
Enum/Item}}
to have " and " without the comma as the default. I could pipe this through anyway (setting the and= parameter of the transclusion {{
Enum}}
), but more properly we don't want "A, and B" in the general case. Then, in {{
Ety/Part}}
a fourth parameter can be passed to indicate if there is another part coming afterwards (since we don't want the comma if we're going to close the whole etymology with a closing paren). All we do here is pipe the first parameter of the next "triple", which may or may not be present. And job's a good 'un.
Hope this all makes sense and you agree it's better for the general case (i.e. no comma when no meaning). To write "(from French, and English)" for example, would look strange to me.
On a minor point I notice the doc was changed somewhere from "parentheses" to "brackets", personally I prefer to use (parentheses), [brackets], and {braces} as terms for those, but I realise different distinctions are made in different subject areas.
Best wishes Si Trew ( talk) 08:47, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
expected the first parameter of each treble to be non-empty were it to be processed. I've changed that so it processes it, via {{Ety/Part}}
, if any part of the treble is non-empty. That's as it should be.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)With consent, can I now move this discussion to Template Talk:Ety? Thanks. Si Trew ( talk) 09:02, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. Definately, yes to the above. I like the Examples too - much better for the /doc than the word "example". And the other examples ("portmanteau" and such) are exactly the kind of thing I was struggling to put my finger on with regards to the comma-and thing. Another
bullseye! Although I don't understand half of the technical details that you stated, I'm glad that you've explained them. Might help me make sense of the {{{{millions}}}} {{{{{{of}}}}{{{{brackets}}}}}}
in the code! ..So aye lad, tha's got my vote. Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
01:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
End of discussion before I moved it here. Si Trew ( talk) 08:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to be a stickler, but after all that we've said and agreed the template doesn't quite seem to work. Looking at the Examples posted above, only the first implementation of Ngoja kidogo bush is rendered correctly (using the dreaded comma-and). At the time of writing all of the other examples which include a meaning, followed by another word-part in an 'undisclosed' language, are not showing a comma. I hope this little bug is a worthy opponent to one of you (that means you,
Si and
Svick - your kung fu is strong!) ...I myself will only be cheering from the sidelines. ;)
Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
23:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
{{Ety}}
to {{Ety/Part}}
to indicate that there is any part following (i.e. any of them can be non-empty, not just the first one, to indicate a follow-on). The small change in {{
Ety/Part}}
(
here) is all that seems to be necessary.{{Enum}}
which I'd not updated to specify the new default for " and ".
Si Trew (
talk)
08:28, 7 July 2010 (UTC){{Ety/Part}}
needs to know "am I going to be followed by at least two more things" to suppress the comma (if it's put out a meaning). I think that's all. But that's essentially what {{Enum/Item}}
does anyway, so it might be redundant to use {{Enum}}
at all. Which does not mean to say splitting it was worthless, but for this special case we might as well essentially implement the logic in {{Enum/Part}}
instead of attempting to defer it (via {{Enum}}
to {{Enum/Item}}
and effectively coupling them anwyay via kinda "hidden" parameters.
Si Trew (
talk)
15:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)...Okay, maybe not tough, but certainly slippery. How about this (in a readable language I sort of made up):
if (!1 & !2) { return "error message"; stop; }
(One 'section' per 'triplet')
return "(from ";
if (1) return ISOlang(1);
if (1 & 2) return " ";
if (2) return "''",2,"''";
if (3) return ", meaning "",3,""";
if (!5) { return ")"; stop; }
if (5 & 8) return ", ";
if (3 & 5 & !8) return ",";
if (5 & !8) return " and ";
if (4) return ISOlang(4);
if (4 & 5) return " ";
if (5) return "''",5,"''";
if (6) return ", meaning "",6,""";
if (!8) { return ")"; stop; }
if (8 & 11) return ", ";
if (6 & 8 & !11) return ",";
if (8 & !11) return " and ";
etc...
nagualdesign (
talk)
16:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
if (1 & 2) return " ";
'fixed' the problem before it became one. How's about writing it up for us? :)
nagualdesign (
talk)
19:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC){{
ety}}
or {{
etymology}}
. It works just like my faux-code above, with very minor tweeking. Ta-da! ;)
nagualdesign (
talk)
00:04, 8 July 2010 (UTC) ...I've still got it!if ((1) or (2)) {
return "from";
<?-- for each triplet... -->
if (1) return " ",ISOlang(1);
if (2) return " ''",2,"''";
if (3) return ", meaning "",3,""";
if ((4) or (5)) {
:if ((7) or (8)) return ",";
else {
if (3) return ",";
return " and";
}
}
<?-- ...add on 3s each time -->
}
else return "error message";
Nice work there getting it how you wanted. It seems like trying to separate responsibility to {{
Enum}}
was overdoing it in the end; but it's through the work of all three of us that we get to a stable and maintainable solution; although the template is long it is quite clear that it is just a repeat for each part, since (as you can see) we can't do loops in templates (we can't do recursion either to get the same effect) so the repetition is inevitable and it seems to me the obvious thing is to make it quite clear the pattern of loop unrolling, which you have done.
I'm still not sure it works properly for the case "From French and English":
from French and English from French quelquechose 'anything', and English
bizarrely it does work if anything is given after the "en":
from French and English anything from French quelquechose and English anything from French quelquechose 'anything', and English anything
which suggests that the if-statements are not correctly nested.
However there comes a point at which one can classify that as improper use, as you have done. Si Trew ( talk) 14:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
{{
ISO 639 name}}
for "
Germanic languages", unfortunately: this just sticks "ic" on the end of "German", so it pipes to
German language, as you see.
Si Trew (
talk)
09:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)RE: In any case, as you see with anniversary, we don't handle chaining etymologies very well. (
Si Trew)
Since it's inception our template has used the format (from ...), which looks great but does not, as you say, handle chaining etymologies. Looking at how the compound pronunciation works, where the outer parens (and the "or") are always hard-coded by the user (and, it seems, never missed), I was wondering if it would be a good idea to change {{etymology}}
to match. So we'd have:
Anniversary (from
Latin anniversarius, meaning "returning annually"; from annus, meaning "year", and versus, meaning "to turn")
'''Anniversary''' ({{etymology|la|anniversarius|returning annually}}; {{etymology||annus|year||versus|to turn}})
Although I still think pronunciation and etymology should be remain separated, using the format (pron) (ety).
I'd be happy to change all the examples and wotnot myself if there is a consensus.
Kind regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
17:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Cool. Now we can say, antidisestablishmentarianism (from anti- 'against', and disestablishmentarianism; from disestablish 'to deprive of special state patronage', and establishment ' The Church of England') ...Still a bit ugly, but a vast improvement! Kind regards, nagualdesign ( talk) 05:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that the etymology template now accepts proper (full) language names, so {{etymology|french}}
is no longer an Invalid Example, and I have removed it. However, the documentation currently reads:
...And I am unsure how to re-word it as I can't comprehend {{Iso2language}}
, {{Iso2lang}}
or {{ISO 639 name|}}
. Any suggestions?
nagualdesign (
talk)
00:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
This template was mentioned on the talk page for WikiProject Linguistics as something that should be applied more widely to etymologies in articles. I have added many etymologies to articles, and there is an issue with the template that I immediately noticed upon looking at the documentation: it applies italics to all foreign terms. Foreign terms in a non-Latin alphabet should not be italicized ( MOS:Ety), so there needs to be a way to specify non-italicization for Greek and Arabic etymons, for example, before this template can be more widely implemented. I'm not interested in making this change myself, but this is just a note on what should be done. — Eru· tuon 22:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
{{ety||''銀果'' (yínguǒ)|silver fruit}}
yields, from 銀果 (yínguǒ) 'silver fruit'. Is that acceptable? Regards,
nagualdesign (
talk)
02:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC){{
lang}}
must surely serve as the canonical example here; but this template has no translations on other Wikipedias, so there is no chance to compare. In many other Wikipedias, there are translated templates, some of which use the English names and some of which put them in their own language; there are also templates made independently which serve the same purpose by different routes, but are linked because of their semantics rather than their surface grammars.
Si Trew (
talk)
23:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)One possibility would be to decide this based on the language parameter. If it's a language that uses the Latin script, it will be italicized and not otherwise. One problem could be with languages that use both Latin and non-Latin scripts, like Serbian. User<Svick>. Talk() ; 20:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
{{|{{is-latin||myparameter}}}}
. Then in {{|is-latin}}
, which should fall within the ISO-lang kinda category templates, would return a boolean value, e.g. empty string if latin alphabet, and non-empty string (such as the parameter itself) if not. {{add-eyeties}}
then adds the
italics if the third parameter to it is not empty. {{is-latin}}
would just be an enormous switch statement, i.e. a map. A map with encoded knowledge that already exists in most font systems,
Unicode, and in the Wikimedia software itself of course, but there is nothing quite like conquering the known.I attempted to use this template today for Old Javanese and {{etymology|kaw|nūsa|island}} results in "from Kawi nūsa 'island'" - which, incidentally, is a redirect to the Siouan language known as Kansa (code KSK). HALP. Ogress smash! 06:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to update this template to be consistent with MOS:SINGLE, introduced sometime in the last couple years, which specifies single quotation marks for glosses. Thoughts? Ibadibam ( talk) 17:47, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I believe it is not standard in Wikipedia to provide "invalid examples" that result in actual errors in the template. I don't think we need an example showing five parameters instead of six, with the fourth parameter omitted and not just blank. Nobody would do that, and if anyone did, it would be really obvious. I don't believe we need an example with the surrounding parentheses omitted. I don't believe we need an example with both language and orthography omitted. In any case, I believe that invalid calls to this template, if we must have them, should be entered only within <nowiki>...</nowiki>
, so the errors aren't executed and the page does not appear on
Lint errors: Misnested tag with different rendering in HTML5 and HTML4 and
Lint errors: Stripped tags. —
Anomalocaris (
talk)
04:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I only realized today that this template has been broken since January. Perhaps it's time to add template protection. nagual design 22:02, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Anomalocaris: As you know, the template was broken from mid-January until the other day. Omitting the language code would have thrown up a visible error. I've encountered a couple of pages now where someone has evidently 'fixed' the error by repeating the language code, as in: Panspermia (from Ancient Greek πᾶν (pan) 'all', and Ancient Greek σπέρμα (sperma) 'seed')... I'd like to correct this by removing the repeated code on any pages where this fix was made. Is there any way you can help me find the pages where the etymology was bodged like this, using your Jedi powers? nagual design 23:34, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The name derives {{etymology|ko|Gyeongsang|joyous furthermore}}; {{etymology||gyeong ''(Korean {{linktext|경|}}, Hanja {{linktext|慶}})''​|happy||sang ''(Korean {{linktext|상|}}, Hanja {{linktext|尚|}})''​|still more}}.
{{
Etymology}}
, and hasn't recently ... ? —
Anomalocaris (
talk)
01:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
There are two problems I can see with this template — one has a workaround but the other doesn't. Neither is a world-changing deal-breaker, but it would be good to get them fixed.
The first is that we don't apply language tagging, which is recommended by the Manual of Style (see MOS:LANG) That would be relatively simple to do, but would involve adding another #if parser function per triplet, which doesn't feel like the best idea. The second is that italics are automatically applied — and need to be worked around for non- Latin languages.
Module:Lang, as invoked from Template:Lang, handles both of these things, and Lua can do a simpler job at nullity-checking. I might take a look at working out how to do this myself, but someone with Lua skills already might be beat me to it :)
— OwenBlacker ( talk) 13:14, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps each orthography could have a built in link to Wiktionary if the page exists? I'm not sure if it's possible to test whether a page exists beforehand. Apologies if this should be located at the Village Pump rather than here on the talk page. Zumley ( talk) 21:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This template has a function similar similar to
Template:Lang. That template has a option to suppress the wikilinking of the the language name (|links=no
). This option should be included with
Template:Etymology.
Senator2029
“Talk”
01:17, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
This template takes language codes, but isn't actually marking up the relevant text with it. For example, if the first parameter was "grc" for Ancient Greek, the Greek text should be wrapped in <span lang="grc"></span>
.
Opencooper (
talk)
01:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
class="gloss-quot"
and class="gloss-text"
)lang="grc-Latn"
. So maybe we should make another template that has a transliteration parameter. As a plus, it could automatically avoid italicizing the word if a transliteration is given.{{ety-translit|grc|ἄρθρον|arthron|joint}}
from {{ISO 639 name|grc|link=yes}} {{lang|grc|ἄρθρον}} ({{translit|grc|arthron}}) {{gloss|joint}}
from Ancient Greek ἄρθρον (arthron) 'joint'
In Chondrichthyes, the template yields the following result:
from Ancient Greek χόνδρος (khóndros) 'cartilage', and ἰχθύς (ikhthús) 'fish'
Clearly, the comma before "and" is incorrect in this case, given that 'cartilage'
isn't a parenthetical remark and isn't introduced with a starting comma – unlike , meaning "cartilage",
. --
Florian Blaschke (
talk)
06:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
Template:Ety2 has been
nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the entry on the Templates for discussion page.
--
65.92.247.66 (
talk)
00:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)