![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2007 May 11. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2011 January 1. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
If we don't want the merge arrows and color, that's fine, but I think the wording at least was better.
— CharlotteWebb 16:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
— CharlotteWebb 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The change from "An editor.." to "It has been suggested.." seems fine, since other common tags use the passive voice, though I don't see what was elitist with the original version. Excluding "Controversy" sections is a mistake, however, since they are susceptible to the same abuses as "Criticism" sections, namely lumping all the negatives in one place. For example, the Al Sharpton article lumps all of his controversies at the end, which is silly, since he is by calling always in the midst of controversy. A better structure for that article would be to incorporate the controversial episodes chronologically into the discussion of his career in civil rights activism. So the remedy for "Controversy" sections, in some cases at least, is the same as that prescribed by this template. I also think there is a benefit in referring to both WP:NPOV and WP:WTA#Article structure, since the latter is an accepted Wikipedia guideline and provides a more explicit reference to "Criticism" or "Controversy" sections. Djcastel 03:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion at NPOV about Criticism and controversy sections. It has lead to a draft discussion of a article structure addition. Please have a look. Morphh (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The way I had written it basically says "it's been suggested that this change will improve the article's neutrality". Contrast that with "this article has a problem and it this is the way to fix it". If you would apply the latter phrase to an article, then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself, whereas I'd assume this template ought to be used in cases where the "right solution" to an article's POV problems is not so crystal clear. Especially if this is going to be expanded to include "controversy" surrounding a specific incident involving the subject (rather than ongoing commentary by "critics"). It would make little sense to intersperse this material into other sections and lose all semblance of chronological order. Simply changing the title of the section would probably fix that issue most of the time. Or there could be better solution for a specific given article, one that we don't have a template for because nobody's thought of it yet. — CharlotteWebb 19:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself
What about changing the template so that it talks about criticism sections being bad for article flow rather than it being bad for NPOV? I value NPOV, but a coherent article is more likely (on average) to be NPOV than an article that flows badly, and it's easier to agree on coherence than on NPOV. Andjam 15:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a little problem. Hundreds of articles have Controversy sections. I do agree that this tag is needed, when it comes to have too much controversy sections, which illustrates the person in a bad light, like in Tom Cruise's case, who has 7 sub-sections (!). However, I strongly disagree with a complete removal of such sections. It's not the same as Trivia sections, which are unencyclopedic. And when there are controversy sections, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is depicted in a less neutral way.
And let's take Tom Cruise one more time. How can THE WHOLE section (of 7 subs) be merged wholly into the article? It's almost impossible. And if it is removed, the article will miss information. That's why I added "some of" to the template.-- 84.228.84.242 23:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Since this template underwent an AfD (see top of the page), it is obviously controversial. The doc to the template seems to be presented in a one-sided manner, as well. I broadened Jimbo's quote to include his full statement, that criticism sections are sometimes necessary. I think they are often necessary, and flow fine. When there is a wholesale criticism about a movement or a person, that should go in a criticism section. Plus, it's a major boon to readers to allow them to quickly find criticism of, say, a politician, or an alternative (or conventional) medical therapy. ImpIn | ( t - c) 03:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In this reversion, the editor as asserted that the "concept is that the WHOLE article mey be pov". If the point is that a criticism section imbalanced the article, then I don't see the purpose in having a specialized secton-level template when the {{ NPOV}} and/or {{ unbalanced}} templates should be listed for the entire article. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
(removing indents) Are you saying that I approach articles asking the "hypocrisy" question? If you are, then I'd like to see some evidence before you make accusations like that. If you're not, then please stop bringing it up. I raised a specific situation, yes, but it's illustrative of the point I'm raising. You argued that grouping criticism/controversies has never been the best way to go. I raised a case where, in my view, it clearly is the way to go. If you're not going to respond to that particular issue, then at least respond to the general concept it raises. And if you won't respond to that, then at least stop with the "I don't see that you've refuted any of the points I've raised" nonsense. Croctotheface ( talk) 14:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I have been seeing this template more and more lately and I think it is a mistake. A lot of times, I am only interested in the criticism/controversy part of an article. It is often the interesting and socially relevant part. Many articles are simply too long to try and find this information. Having this section is efficient and saves the reader's time.
If I see an article with no criticism/controversy section it usually tells me that it has been deleted by an interested party. I suppose this is the downside: it makes it easier to delete. This is especially true with companies and PR firms ( http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/technology/19wikipedia.html). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.222.125.20 ( talk) 22:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the criticism section should be present but only be a summary/overview of the criticism already present in the rest of the article. If the current structure of the articles doesn't fit to hold some important criticism points, that the current article structure may be limited/biased and need to be changed/expanded.-- Sum ( talk) 11:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Proposal: rewrite the template message to follow Template:Lead too short, and say that This article's criticism overview section may not adequately summarize its contents. -- Sum ( talk) 12:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be criticism sections in biographical or historical articles, but not in articles about philosophical or psychological or similar theories, because in these instances criticism of a theory is usually notable itself. For example let's take utilitarianism. This ethical theory (as well as all ethical theories) has been openly criticized in many many ways, not in anyway connected to each other. Impossible to integrate to other sections. It's a common practice to describe a theory and then to write about how it was criticized and defended (arguments for and against). What's wrong with that? Maybe we could write somewhere, that these cases are exceptions?-- Tired time ( talk) 19:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
This {{ csection}} tag suggests distributing criticisms throughout the article ('integrating' them) instead of grouping them together. I disagree that this approach should be used to create a WP:NPOV in general, and suggest either deleting or rewording this template.
In a controversy that is highly polarized, such as where some people believe the statements made by an official source and some believe in statements by vocal objectors, it makes better sense to group the objections together in their own section. That makes it easier to understand the objections as a group with common motivations (such as: 'the government is not telling us the whole truth', or 'the article is nothing but pseudoscience'). Mixing the objections with the 'official' or 'mainstream' material would not make the article have a more NPOV but would instead make it more difficult to read and understand. David Spector 21:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
That article is a good example. I've studied many websites with objections to HAARP. All of the objections, without exception, are based either on misunderstandings of science or of the project, or on distrust of the U.S. government (which may be deserved or not, depending on your POV). Furthermore, not one of the sites with criticisms is reliable, authoritative, or even secondary. They are mostly primary, and are all WP:OR.
Putting all the objections into one section gets them out of the way of the article, which focuses on a factual description of HAARP, as provided by the government. Putting all the objections into one section makes it clear what they all have in common (as I described above).
Yes, there are many articles that benefit from scattering objections throughout the article. But when an article is about a very polarized issue, this is not the case. Then a separate Criticisms section is best. Unfortunately, I disagree with Mr. Wales and a few others on this point, but I'm prepared to continue the discussion for a bit more. I will do anything to help WP become better, and it is clear that we are far from consensus here.
If we can come up with guidelines for when to use a Criticisms section and when not to, we could edit this template and be done with it. I believe that would be better than deleting the template, because there are situations where a separate section is helpful (as in this example) and others where a separate situation is bad (as in PETA, where there are specific criticisms of various PETA policies, rather than a unified opposing POV). David Spector 20:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
In general, we have no right to characterize objections or criticisms (or even conspiracy theories) as having been created by "nutjobs". That is a highly pejorative term, suitable only for ad hominem attacks. As you know, such attacks are not on firm ground.
Today's criticism may be tomorrow's orthodoxy. We know from history that even the U.S. government (in the land of free speech) delays revealing complete knowledge of its actions, particularly when 'national security' is involved. This fact makes even far-out theories possible.
WP pretends that many secondary sources are authoritative. However, the truth is that the best of sources make mistakes sometime. Therefore, no secondary sources can be trusted completely. Also, for almost all topics, there will be one or more primary sources that are more complete and trustworthy than any secondary source. For example, newspaper reporters typically take balanced statements of scientific researchers, introduce errors, omissions, and exaggerations, and then publish the resulting mess. Unfortunately, we have no way of evaluating sources, whether primary or secondary, so it is rarely in the interest of completeness to exclude material.
An ordinary encyclopedia contains only facts verified by many experts. Such an encyclopedia contains mostly quaint, outdated information within just a few years. An innovated encyclopedia like WP should contain more depth, including opposing viewpoints. Integrating such criticisms throughout an article is appropriate when these viewpoints should be given equal weight, such as in PETA.
However, in the case of many articles, such as HAARP, this is not the case. This is why it is better, for these kinds of articles, to group the opposing viewpoints in their own section. It gives them less credibility, which is appropriate because at this point in time they are indeed less credible.
Since we could find out, for example, that HAARP has caused a shift in the earth's inclination which in turn has triggered earthquakes, keeping the opposing points of view might turn out to be useful in the long run. WP should discard only when no rationale or justification can be found for a particular statement. There is nothing wrong with having a 'loyal opposition'. Sometimes, and not so rarely, that's just the ticket for making breakthrough discoveries. David Spector 18:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Honestly, I like having the criticism section, because it separates it from the article where it can be it's own self-contained unit, where it can be explained in proper and fair detail, rather that trying to smashing it into a section that is already, long. (Most of the time.) Frankly I say keep criticism sections, and get rid of this: "Remove Criticism, rewrite into article" Header. (Please contact me if you disagree.)-- The Navigators ( talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 02:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Sjakkalle for beginning the rewording as suggested in the TfD. As someone who favored deletion, I think the new template satisfies many of the concerns raised in the TfD. It could still use some improvement, although I'm not sure at the moment exactly what the best improvements would be. In the meantime, I have changed "is compromising" to "may be compromising" because the previous template used the word "may". I think it's important to keep that uncertainty, since one of the main concerns raised in the TfD was that the template would be applied to Criticism sections that were within policy. That danger still exists, so the template should always encourage further discussion rather than immediate editing. YardsGreen ( talk) 10:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
This is per WP:ESSAY: "Essays have no official status and do not speak for the Wikipedia community because they may be created and edited without overall community oversight." We should not be enforcing someone's opinion on a template that speaks for the community. Can you show me any other POV dispute tags which link to essays as a rationale? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
This should not link to an essay which is not vetted by the community.I reverted it with reasoning
It's important that we give direct guidance to editors who want to know why criticism sections are bad; currently, that exists at WP:Criticism, which is more of an explainer than an opinion essay. It is also linked from the NPOV policy, a good indication of vetting/community buy-in.
![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2007 May 11. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2011 January 1. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
If we don't want the merge arrows and color, that's fine, but I think the wording at least was better.
— CharlotteWebb 16:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
— CharlotteWebb 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The change from "An editor.." to "It has been suggested.." seems fine, since other common tags use the passive voice, though I don't see what was elitist with the original version. Excluding "Controversy" sections is a mistake, however, since they are susceptible to the same abuses as "Criticism" sections, namely lumping all the negatives in one place. For example, the Al Sharpton article lumps all of his controversies at the end, which is silly, since he is by calling always in the midst of controversy. A better structure for that article would be to incorporate the controversial episodes chronologically into the discussion of his career in civil rights activism. So the remedy for "Controversy" sections, in some cases at least, is the same as that prescribed by this template. I also think there is a benefit in referring to both WP:NPOV and WP:WTA#Article structure, since the latter is an accepted Wikipedia guideline and provides a more explicit reference to "Criticism" or "Controversy" sections. Djcastel 03:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a discussion at NPOV about Criticism and controversy sections. It has lead to a draft discussion of a article structure addition. Please have a look. Morphh (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
The way I had written it basically says "it's been suggested that this change will improve the article's neutrality". Contrast that with "this article has a problem and it this is the way to fix it". If you would apply the latter phrase to an article, then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself, whereas I'd assume this template ought to be used in cases where the "right solution" to an article's POV problems is not so crystal clear. Especially if this is going to be expanded to include "controversy" surrounding a specific incident involving the subject (rather than ongoing commentary by "critics"). It would make little sense to intersperse this material into other sections and lose all semblance of chronological order. Simply changing the title of the section would probably fix that issue most of the time. Or there could be better solution for a specific given article, one that we don't have a template for because nobody's thought of it yet. — CharlotteWebb 19:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
then obviously you're so sure about it that you could fix it yourself
What about changing the template so that it talks about criticism sections being bad for article flow rather than it being bad for NPOV? I value NPOV, but a coherent article is more likely (on average) to be NPOV than an article that flows badly, and it's easier to agree on coherence than on NPOV. Andjam 15:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I have a little problem. Hundreds of articles have Controversy sections. I do agree that this tag is needed, when it comes to have too much controversy sections, which illustrates the person in a bad light, like in Tom Cruise's case, who has 7 sub-sections (!). However, I strongly disagree with a complete removal of such sections. It's not the same as Trivia sections, which are unencyclopedic. And when there are controversy sections, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is depicted in a less neutral way.
And let's take Tom Cruise one more time. How can THE WHOLE section (of 7 subs) be merged wholly into the article? It's almost impossible. And if it is removed, the article will miss information. That's why I added "some of" to the template.-- 84.228.84.242 23:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Since this template underwent an AfD (see top of the page), it is obviously controversial. The doc to the template seems to be presented in a one-sided manner, as well. I broadened Jimbo's quote to include his full statement, that criticism sections are sometimes necessary. I think they are often necessary, and flow fine. When there is a wholesale criticism about a movement or a person, that should go in a criticism section. Plus, it's a major boon to readers to allow them to quickly find criticism of, say, a politician, or an alternative (or conventional) medical therapy. ImpIn | ( t - c) 03:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
In this reversion, the editor as asserted that the "concept is that the WHOLE article mey be pov". If the point is that a criticism section imbalanced the article, then I don't see the purpose in having a specialized secton-level template when the {{ NPOV}} and/or {{ unbalanced}} templates should be listed for the entire article. // Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
(removing indents) Are you saying that I approach articles asking the "hypocrisy" question? If you are, then I'd like to see some evidence before you make accusations like that. If you're not, then please stop bringing it up. I raised a specific situation, yes, but it's illustrative of the point I'm raising. You argued that grouping criticism/controversies has never been the best way to go. I raised a case where, in my view, it clearly is the way to go. If you're not going to respond to that particular issue, then at least respond to the general concept it raises. And if you won't respond to that, then at least stop with the "I don't see that you've refuted any of the points I've raised" nonsense. Croctotheface ( talk) 14:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I have been seeing this template more and more lately and I think it is a mistake. A lot of times, I am only interested in the criticism/controversy part of an article. It is often the interesting and socially relevant part. Many articles are simply too long to try and find this information. Having this section is efficient and saves the reader's time.
If I see an article with no criticism/controversy section it usually tells me that it has been deleted by an interested party. I suppose this is the downside: it makes it easier to delete. This is especially true with companies and PR firms ( http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/technology/19wikipedia.html). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.222.125.20 ( talk) 22:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the criticism section should be present but only be a summary/overview of the criticism already present in the rest of the article. If the current structure of the articles doesn't fit to hold some important criticism points, that the current article structure may be limited/biased and need to be changed/expanded.-- Sum ( talk) 11:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Proposal: rewrite the template message to follow Template:Lead too short, and say that This article's criticism overview section may not adequately summarize its contents. -- Sum ( talk) 12:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there shouldn't be criticism sections in biographical or historical articles, but not in articles about philosophical or psychological or similar theories, because in these instances criticism of a theory is usually notable itself. For example let's take utilitarianism. This ethical theory (as well as all ethical theories) has been openly criticized in many many ways, not in anyway connected to each other. Impossible to integrate to other sections. It's a common practice to describe a theory and then to write about how it was criticized and defended (arguments for and against). What's wrong with that? Maybe we could write somewhere, that these cases are exceptions?-- Tired time ( talk) 19:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
This {{ csection}} tag suggests distributing criticisms throughout the article ('integrating' them) instead of grouping them together. I disagree that this approach should be used to create a WP:NPOV in general, and suggest either deleting or rewording this template.
In a controversy that is highly polarized, such as where some people believe the statements made by an official source and some believe in statements by vocal objectors, it makes better sense to group the objections together in their own section. That makes it easier to understand the objections as a group with common motivations (such as: 'the government is not telling us the whole truth', or 'the article is nothing but pseudoscience'). Mixing the objections with the 'official' or 'mainstream' material would not make the article have a more NPOV but would instead make it more difficult to read and understand. David Spector 21:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
That article is a good example. I've studied many websites with objections to HAARP. All of the objections, without exception, are based either on misunderstandings of science or of the project, or on distrust of the U.S. government (which may be deserved or not, depending on your POV). Furthermore, not one of the sites with criticisms is reliable, authoritative, or even secondary. They are mostly primary, and are all WP:OR.
Putting all the objections into one section gets them out of the way of the article, which focuses on a factual description of HAARP, as provided by the government. Putting all the objections into one section makes it clear what they all have in common (as I described above).
Yes, there are many articles that benefit from scattering objections throughout the article. But when an article is about a very polarized issue, this is not the case. Then a separate Criticisms section is best. Unfortunately, I disagree with Mr. Wales and a few others on this point, but I'm prepared to continue the discussion for a bit more. I will do anything to help WP become better, and it is clear that we are far from consensus here.
If we can come up with guidelines for when to use a Criticisms section and when not to, we could edit this template and be done with it. I believe that would be better than deleting the template, because there are situations where a separate section is helpful (as in this example) and others where a separate situation is bad (as in PETA, where there are specific criticisms of various PETA policies, rather than a unified opposing POV). David Spector 20:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
In general, we have no right to characterize objections or criticisms (or even conspiracy theories) as having been created by "nutjobs". That is a highly pejorative term, suitable only for ad hominem attacks. As you know, such attacks are not on firm ground.
Today's criticism may be tomorrow's orthodoxy. We know from history that even the U.S. government (in the land of free speech) delays revealing complete knowledge of its actions, particularly when 'national security' is involved. This fact makes even far-out theories possible.
WP pretends that many secondary sources are authoritative. However, the truth is that the best of sources make mistakes sometime. Therefore, no secondary sources can be trusted completely. Also, for almost all topics, there will be one or more primary sources that are more complete and trustworthy than any secondary source. For example, newspaper reporters typically take balanced statements of scientific researchers, introduce errors, omissions, and exaggerations, and then publish the resulting mess. Unfortunately, we have no way of evaluating sources, whether primary or secondary, so it is rarely in the interest of completeness to exclude material.
An ordinary encyclopedia contains only facts verified by many experts. Such an encyclopedia contains mostly quaint, outdated information within just a few years. An innovated encyclopedia like WP should contain more depth, including opposing viewpoints. Integrating such criticisms throughout an article is appropriate when these viewpoints should be given equal weight, such as in PETA.
However, in the case of many articles, such as HAARP, this is not the case. This is why it is better, for these kinds of articles, to group the opposing viewpoints in their own section. It gives them less credibility, which is appropriate because at this point in time they are indeed less credible.
Since we could find out, for example, that HAARP has caused a shift in the earth's inclination which in turn has triggered earthquakes, keeping the opposing points of view might turn out to be useful in the long run. WP should discard only when no rationale or justification can be found for a particular statement. There is nothing wrong with having a 'loyal opposition'. Sometimes, and not so rarely, that's just the ticket for making breakthrough discoveries. David Spector 18:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Honestly, I like having the criticism section, because it separates it from the article where it can be it's own self-contained unit, where it can be explained in proper and fair detail, rather that trying to smashing it into a section that is already, long. (Most of the time.) Frankly I say keep criticism sections, and get rid of this: "Remove Criticism, rewrite into article" Header. (Please contact me if you disagree.)-- The Navigators ( talk)-May British Rail Rest in Peace. 02:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you Sjakkalle for beginning the rewording as suggested in the TfD. As someone who favored deletion, I think the new template satisfies many of the concerns raised in the TfD. It could still use some improvement, although I'm not sure at the moment exactly what the best improvements would be. In the meantime, I have changed "is compromising" to "may be compromising" because the previous template used the word "may". I think it's important to keep that uncertainty, since one of the main concerns raised in the TfD was that the template would be applied to Criticism sections that were within policy. That danger still exists, so the template should always encourage further discussion rather than immediate editing. YardsGreen ( talk) 10:42, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
This is per WP:ESSAY: "Essays have no official status and do not speak for the Wikipedia community because they may be created and edited without overall community oversight." We should not be enforcing someone's opinion on a template that speaks for the community. Can you show me any other POV dispute tags which link to essays as a rationale? - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
This should not link to an essay which is not vetted by the community.I reverted it with reasoning
It's important that we give direct guidance to editors who want to know why criticism sections are bad; currently, that exists at WP:Criticism, which is more of an explainer than an opinion essay. It is also linked from the NPOV policy, a good indication of vetting/community buy-in.