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Dictionary of National Biography | ||||
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I have recently upgraded the {{ 1911}} and {{ Catholic}} templates. I would like to do the same to this one and {{ DNB}} but instead of having {{ DNB}} as a wrapper around {{ cite encyclopedia}} I would like to have it as a wrapper around this template. To do that I would like to:
To make these changes. I propose to
Comments welcome. -- PBS ( talk) 01:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Changes made -- PBS ( talk) 12:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose to move this template from {{ DNB Cite}} to "{{ cite DNB}} as it fits in better with names like {{ cite web}} {{ cite encyclopedia}} etc. -- PBS ( talk) 12:37, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Bob I think this edit this edit is a retrograde step, do you know of any usage of the template where this is a problem, because I think I went through all of of them from unamed parameter to named parameter when when I put this template in. -- PBS ( talk) 18:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I've checked and I did -- PBS ( talk)
comment
parameter is just as useless, and it would be better just to let people know in the doc they can put what text they want after the template. This will help them in other situations as well.wstitle
is "custom" as far as standard {{
cite}} parameters, and a variant customization doesn't, to me, seem like too much. wstitle
still has priority.author
parameter has stopped working, although first
and last
still work fine. I noticed this before I made my edit to this template. Looking at the code for this template, I don't see the problem. It still works for {{
Cite encyclopedia}}. I notice it has been omitted from the documentation, but of course this shouldn't matter, but it should be documented as well, which I can do if it ever starts working again.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
21:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)I think this discussion should be carried on at Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography, or at least that project should be notified of it, if only to get more feedback. That is one place where your "proposed changes" notification should have been posted. Revision of templates is on the agenda there. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the use of having {{ DNB}} as a separate template. I think one could incorporate an option in {{ Cite DNB}} to activate the "incorporate text from pub in pd" notice. This dispenses of the need for a separate template I think. See {{ Cite Americana}} for an example. The major retrofitting problem I see is {{ DNB}} doesn't require a title, but a default title in {{ Cite DNB}}, something like "Title Needed", would fix this, and perhaps promote less vague citations. It seems like this is something that could be usefully done for other template pairs as well, like {{ Cite EB1911}} and {{ 1911}}. I have joined Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography, and I will look for an appropriate place to introduce this discussion, and also the discussion on no-argument parameters. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help) and {{
DNB}} and {{
Cite DNB}}, there already existed two templates one with an attribution string and the other without. I created the {{
cite EB1911}} modelled on those after you Bob raised the issue of the problem with {{
Wikisource1911Enc citation}}
[1] it seemed to me the cleanest solution (for the reasons given before) --
PBS (
talk)
09:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)I think you need to bring more people into your decision making. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 20:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't use either of those template pairs. I mean as in {{
1911}} (and I imagine the same is true for {{
DNB}}) it is not required to supply a wstitle
or article
parameter setting, whereas in {{
Cite DNB}} this is required. Just having one template to remember and one set of documentation I think makes up for a few more parameters to remember. Actually I can only see the need for one more parameter, and that's the one to turn on the verbatim public domain inclusion message.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
20:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In this context, London should not be wikilinked - I have attempted to remove the link. -- Amitchell125 ( talk) 08:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I think the year range 1885-1900 should appear only when the volume hasn't been specified and the year is not known, and it should be the setting for the year parameter rather than part of the publication name. There must be a way of making 1885-1900 the default for the switch statement and removing it from where it is now. For the supplement, the modifier "(supplement)" should appear after "D...N...B...", but not the year. In that case the default for year can be 1901 instead of 1885-1900. I will do this once I've consulted the doc on the switch statement. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 19:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
[[s:{{{wstitle|}}} (DNB01){{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
which links to the appropriate Wikisource project.--
PBS (
talk)
15:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)I did not know about this template. As you know, I see no need for two templates for every project since I have found it is very easy to have an argument that activates the message display when text is being incorporated verbatim. And I think it is easier just to have a template with a single "supplement" arg instead of two templates with a lot of duplicate code for that job as well. However, I would not have gone to the effort of doing the implementation if I had known about the other template, {{ Cite DNBSupp}}. But since I have gone to the trouble, I think I would retain the changes, and in consideration of people who want to cite DNB, I would not introduce this second template just for the supplement. Also {{ Cite DNBSupp}} suffers from the same problem that {{ Cite DNB}} does. Having 1901 twice makes no sense. At most, a simple "(supplement)" after "D...N...B..." is needed, and actually just the year is enough. So my proposal is to only display the range (1885-1900) if the volume is not specified. And for the supplement, to only display the year. 1901 says it all. No need for the word supplement to appear anywhere I think. But I could live with it. 1901 appearing twice does not look good though. And I think the second set of templates for the supplement should be junked. If you do insist on them, you should at least put a notice in the "see also" of {{ Cite DNB}}, but I would prefer if you didn't since I don't think it is useful, especially now that {{ Cite DNB}} easily handles this issue. I think a similar edit should be made to {{ DNB}} to give it the same flexibility. But actually I think it should be junked as well, and an arg added to {{ Cite DNB}} to create a verbatim message. Think of the ease of maintenance ... only one template to change instead of four. And I think users would find it easier as well. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 20:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
So I have carried this out, and also added the vb
parameter so the appropriate message can be displayed when DNB text is copied into a Wikipedia article. The only thing lacking is adding a category, if this is thought necessary, when text is copied. It does not add a lot of complexity to the template, and now one template can be used where four were thought necessary before. Seems a major improvement to me. I do not do this lightly. I have been experimenting with this approach with {{
Cite Americana}} and templates for other encyclopedias, and it seems effective. I would be inclined to extend {{
Cite EB1911}} this way as well, but I have no plans to at this point.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
22:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Is it me or does the accessdate parameter not work? violet/riga [talk] 22:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
{{Cite DNB|accessdate=August 2012}}
:
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help); Check date values in: |access-date=
(
help); Missing or empty |title=
(
help){{Cite DNB|url=http://xx|accessdate=August 2012}}
:
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900
http://xx. Retrieved August 2012. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Check |url=
value (
help); Check date values in: |access-date=
(
help); Missing or empty |title=
(
help)Currently the icons produced by this template link to their file description pages. This could be confusing, and is of little use to anyone. I propose we remove the links, or at least link the icons to something more relevant. Any objections? -- Noiratsi ( talk) 15:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Another editor has pointed out to me that a user script unintentionally broke links to Wikisource articles by changing a hyphen in a date range to an endash.
There is a conflict of style guides. MOS:ENDASH specifies an endash between two dates. The main Wikisource style guide is mute on the topic. However, the DNB Project Style Manual specifies a hyphen between the two dates of an article disambiguator.
Editors at Wikipedia, may not be aware of the Wikisource style specification. A couple of things might be done:
{{cite DNB}}
to link to the hyphen-disambiguated article title but display the endash-disambiguated article title.The first two seem the best to me though I can imagine that editors unfamiliar with Wikisource might not be comfortable creating redirects there.
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 12:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I have today added the parameter 2ndsupp
to allow for the easier addition of the 1912 supplement. Add the parameter with anything as the variable, though for the example I have utilised the number 2 so that it is a little more evident that it is different. It has just been a heavy-handed hack with the one additional parameter, rather than something graceful that utilises the existing supplement parameter, partly laziness, and partly due to not knowing how well the existing parameter has been used. —
billinghurst
sDrewth
01:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
{{DNB Cite|wstitle=Humbert, Albert Jenkins}}
generates .
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900.|date=
in this citation. It's not obvious that the way to remove the error is to add |volume=
, as follows:
{{DNB Cite|wstitle=Humbert, Albert Jenkins|volume=28}}
generates
Lee, Sidney, ed. (1891). .
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 28. London: Smith, Elder & Co.|wstitle=
parameter, it could be done by bot (e.g. If |wstitle=
is between Aa and Ar add |volume=1
, if between As and Be add |volume=2
, etc.)Any suggestions? GoingBatty ( talk) 15:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite DNB/sandbox}}
that will add pages to
Category:DNB citations missing parameters when none of |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
are set regardless of namespace. See
testcases.{{
cite DNB}}
. I'm not in a hurry. Are you?#ifeq:
. I put it outside so that the category would catch all instances where |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
are not set. We can decide to limit categorization to certain namespaces, if necessary, at a later date.{{#ifeq: {{NAMESPACEE}} |<!--is set-->| ...}}
construct isn't at all clear to me. Magic word {{NAMESPACEE}}
simply returns the name of the namespace. For example, this talk page is in: Template_talk. Is it possible to use {{cite DNB}}
outside of a namespace? And if so, do we care? Is this construct an incomplete attempt to limit
Category:Articles incorporating Cite DNB template and
Category:Articles incorporating Cite DNB template with an unnamed parameter to certain namespaces? As it is now, if the page is located in a namespace, then it is included in those categories.{{cite DNB}}
citation out of
Category:CS1 errors: dates. Those three parameters are |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
.add a similar construct to {{ DNB}} because from the category point of view they are treated separately.How are they treated separately? It is and has been my intent to do one template (
{{cite DNB}}
) and then when the kinks are ironed out, do the other.@
Trappist the monk the test on {{NAMESPACEE}}
does not work as you think it does. Please have a look at the template
user: PBS/test and then add it to the top of a couple of different spaces including article space (there is no need to save the page, just edit it include the template and click on [show preview]). However that was not what I was talking about but rather the test:
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}<!--DNB-text is passed in by {{DNB}} and bypass these categories-->
Which is a parameter passed in by {{ DNB}} when it calls {{ cite DNB}} to allow separate categories to be maintained by the two different templates. -- PBS ( talk) 14:49, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test. Shouldn't we want to know when editors use {{
DNB}}
without |volume=
?{{
DNB}}
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test in {{
cite DNB}}
{{
DNB}}
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test in {{
cite DNB}}
How about I make a request for a bot to go through all the articles with {{
Cite DNB}} and {{
DNB}} (and their various redirects), and if the templates don't have |volume=
, the bot would follow the link to find the volume and add it appropriately?
GoingBatty (
talk)
04:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
On as slight tangent t the discussion over volume, there are dozens of these types of PD templates (I come across new ones fairly regularly, the most recent one is {{ Bryan}} which has not yet been converted to be a wrapper around a standard citation template as has {{ DNB}}). Most of the ones I know about have been converted into three:
{{name}}, {{cite name}}
and {{name poster}}
as in
You will find a higgledy piggledy list in user:PBS/Notes#List of PD Templates. Nearly all of them use a parameter "wstitle=" to construct a path on Wikisource to an article on Wikisource while the parameter "title=" can be used with "url=" in the standard way to link to an external source if an article is missing on Wikisource (something which is quite common with encyclopaedias like {{ EB1911}}). The biggest problem I perceive with many of these PD templates is that one prolific user of these PD templates has insisted on using an unnamed parameter as an alternative to "wstitle=" because "As far as the unnamed parameter, I think it is more convenient." (see above #Unnamed parameter). This was a position he held before the introduction of "CS1" and I think it is even less justified now than it was then because at the moment many of these PD templates can not pass the unnamed parameter through {{ cite encyclopedia}} (or similar) and on to "CS1" to error check an unnamed parameter in the usual way. The trouble in the past with reaching a consensus -- on the use of unnamed parameters in these PD templates to link to Wikisource articles -- has been that up to now, usually only he an I have turned up for such debates on the talk page of templates as most editors are not interested in such details. For example there is a categories for {{ cite DNB}} and {{ DNB}} which if we could get agreement to pass unnamed parameters to CS1 could be processed to extract those that need moving to "wstile=":
Given that CS1 can error check unnamed parameters, I think it is time to remove the mapping between unnamed parameters and wstitle. What do others think? -- PBS ( talk) 11:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
{{{1}}}
from {{
cite DNB}}
.To editor PBS: Yes, it actually does produce a CS1 bad date error when a date range is used. We must pick a date, and I usually go with the most recent year. The only way for you to actually see this is when you have entered the code in your .css file for the skin (for example, "Vector") you use to edit this encyclopedia. In my /vector.css file is the code...
.citation-comment { display: inline !important; color: red; }
That allows me to see all the CS1 errors that are generated in red in the References/Notes sections of articles. I'm going to once again get rid of that error and do not expect to be reverted again. It is especially important with this type of template, because just one CS1 error here shows up in every single article in which this template is transcluded and the volume param is not used. Thank you for your understanding. There may be a way to make the date/year parameter accept a date-range, but that would have to be submitted and discussed on the
appropriate talk page. –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
16:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
PS. How is
all this going for you? PS added by –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
PPS. I see from discussions on this page and others that solutions are being implemented to eliminate this type of error. The date range actually acts as an error catcher for the bot. Not all of them have been caught, obviously, because it is just such an error that lead me here. So please disregard the above, because I have added the volume number to the specific {{
Cite DNB}} template and eliminated the CS1 bad date error in that way. Joys! PPS added by –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
May I suggest the inclusion of a subsection? It could be added under the heading "Examples" and follow the subsection "Other parameters; add a comment". It may appear as follows...
Omitted parameters
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Gosnold, Bartholomew |short=x}}
which lacks the "volume" parameter displays as:
Dictionary of National Biography. 1885–1900. Check date values in: |date= ( help)
.to those editors who have enabled CS1 error detection. This is easy to fix:
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Gosnold, Bartholomew |short=x |volume=22}}
which displays as:
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 22. 1890.
.The inclusion of the volume parameter also adds the correct date, so the CS1 error will not appear.
Note: The CS1 error also appears in the example at the top of this page. This is normal, so please do not "fix it".
(end of suggested inclusion) – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 16:09, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
It has been about a week since I made this suggestion, so if there are no objections I shall go ahead and include the above clarification in a few hours. – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 17:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
See Template talk:DNB#Unnamed parameters -- PBS ( talk) 18:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
This template is not linking to Wikisource properly when "2ndsupp" is specified. The suffix should be "(DNB12)" instead of "(DNB00)". I have added a proposed fix to the sandbox. Library Guy ( talk) 16:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Per
Trappist the monk's second proposed option at
#Hyphens and dashes and Wikisource disambiguators, can somebody please tweak the coding for this template, so that hyphens in year ranges appear as en dashes (without affecting the link to Wikisource)? I would note that hyphens are automatically converted to en dashes in {{
Cite book}}
with the |pages=
parameter: {{cite book |title=Foo |pages=1-3}}
appears as Foo. pp. 1–3. (without affecting the source text). Can something similar be done in regards to this template? Thanks.--
Nevé
–
selbert
10:23, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
[[s:{{{wstitle|}}} {{#if: {{{supplement|}}} | (DNB01) | (DNB00) }}{{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
[[s:{{#invoke:String|replace|source={{{wstitle|}}}|pattern=%((%d+)%–(%d+)%)|replace=(%1-%2)|plain=false}} {{#if: {{{supplement|}}} | (DNB01) | (DNB00) }}{{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
{{#invoke:String}}
bit sufficiently to believe that it will work in the template but have not tested it in the template.I've been through the first 20 volumes by eye. These are the letters combinations I saw. I expected to see (c. yyyy) but there were none the last two are outliers there were no other ones I noticed like them:
-- PBS ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
c. YYYY-YYYY
but I suspect that circa years are handled in a standardized way by the question-mark suffix.As it happens there is a discussion in progress on Wikisource DNB project s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject DNB#Time to talk DNB redirect articles which is probably a more failsafe way to fix this problem. I suggest that it is requested there that a bot is run to create ndash redirects in all cases where a dash is used in a dab page. -- PBS ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Your change shows a different title than Wikisource has, do you believe that is the correct way to go? If you want a suggestion, how about you have it that if there is a mindless change by local users incorrectly applying a rule that the template renders here with a hyphen, irrespective of whether they use a hyphen or an en dash in their link.
The best failsafe way to implement this template is to utilise wikidata where each of these biographies has its item, and we call the item through its association with the d:Property:P1343 (described by source) and the "stated in" qualifier. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:22, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
proposed, which was to have the hyphens to appear as en dashes while the source stays the same.
display
parameter. No such parameter exists at the moment in this template, but it does exist in many other similar templates such as {{
cite EB1911}}
. --
PBS (
talk)
06:41, 26 September 2017 (UTC)|wstitle=
|wstitle=
should use endashes (
Neve-selbert); the displayed |wstitle=
should use hyphens (billinghurst). I don't think that much progress can be made here until that basic disagreement is resolved.The articles at English Wikisource use a hyphen in their name and that should be respected. They are not part of a Wikipedia style, nor do they need to be. Stop thinking that other sites need to align to the body style, and cite the works appropriately.
|wstitle=
which, before the change, would have broken the link to wikisource but with the change maintained a working link despite a malformed rendering. You reverted because a working link with a malformed rendering is somehow worse than a broken link with a malformed rendering. How is the modified template worse than the existing template where one at least works and the other doesn't?that other sites need to align to the body style. I can't imagine how this misperception is legitimate grounds for reversion.
{{
cite book}}
|pages=
one, without affecting the source formatting.--
Nevé
–
selbert
06:14, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
{{
CE1913}}
where page numbers are not available
s:Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/English Confessors and Martyrs (1534-1729). How would your proposal deal with the move of pages from one location to another. Are you proposing that we use external https links or the
Interwikimedia links used currently in theses templates? --
PBS (
talk)
12:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
|pages=
example is just an example of how one can have hyphens to appear as en dashes for readers while the source formatting remains the same. Secondly, I do not believe that the proposal will have to deal with the move of pages from one location to another (the source is not affected in this proposal). Whether we use external or interwikimedia links will have to be decided, I have no strong opinion. To be clear, all hyphens that precede/succeed a number will be shown as en dashes (
double-barrelled names will not be affected) in what I am proposing.--
Nevé
–
selbert
15:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)So that we can see the scale of the problem and fix any links that are broken I have added the code that Trappist the monk wrote to select for links to Wikisource with an ndash between dates. The category is:
I have forced some articles into the category (empty edits), but it will take some time before it is fully populated by all the articles. -- PBS ( talk) 10:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
As of the time stamp at the end of this post there were 77 articles where the wstitle= contained a ndash inplaced of a dash. As there in total 9,437 articles with template that links to a wikisource article that is <1%. -- PBS ( talk) 09:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I have added a display= parameter to the template:
The text in the display parameter will mask the Wikisource article name provided to the wstitle parameter. As the text can be anything editors are free to mask the dateranges in a Wikisource article with either no daterange or a using ndash in place of a the dash commonly used on Wikisource.
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |volume=63}}
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |display=Wren, Christopher (1632–1723) |volume=63}}
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |display=Wren, Sir Christopher |volume=63}}
@ User:Neve-selbert does that work for you? -- PBS ( talk) 15:05, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
is a good enough solution. And I still cannot wrap my head around why this proposal is so controversial. Is
ISO 8601 a concern for you or something? I must reiterate that hyphenated names won't be affected in this proposal, only date ranges.--
Nevé
–
selbert
16:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
, why not modify the template so that it removes the date ranges automatically per
WP:PIPETRICK? That way, there wouldn't be any need to use |display=
to hide the ranges.--
Nevé
–
selbert
02:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)As there is not a consensus for the change you wish to make, and the display option is an alternative, why not use it? -- PBS ( talk) 18:14, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Per
wikisource:Page:Dictionary of National Biography volume 01.djvu/19, the original source
uses the en dash and not a hyphen for date ranges, i.e. ABBOT, GEORGE (1562–1633) not ABBOT, GEORGE (1562-1633). Please can editor modify this template so that hyphens that appear before and/or after an integer appear automatically as en dashes, in the same way hyphens are automatically converted at {{
cite book}}
with |pages=
, i.e. {{cite book |title=Foo |pages=1-2}} appearing as Foo. pp. 1–2..--
Nevé
–
selbert
19:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
display=
parameter then the content of the wstitle
parameter will not appear in Wikipedia articles. --
PBS (
talk)
09:35, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
function is unnecessary and should be removed. The hyphens ought to be converted automatically.--
Nevé
–
selbert
03:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)I raise the issue on s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject DNB#Hyphens, en dashes and redirects because if there had been a consensus there to make a change from dash to ndash or to add redirect, (which there does not appear to be), then that would have solved the problem without any change here.
user:Billinghurst has rejected the Lua solution and you are refusing to use a display parameter, so unless you can get more people involved who support your preferred solution, this is not going to be resolved.
I also think that you, User:Neve-selbert are missing the fact that the DNB does use date ranges in its biography titles. As such it is not relevant if the text within an article uses ndash or dash because the date range is not part of the DNB section heading (it is a dab extension added for technical reasons by editors on Wikisource). Using the display parameter allows the title of the DNB article to appear in a Wikipedia {{ cite DNB}} template as it does in the original (with suitable alterations for upper-case to lower-case). -- PBS ( talk) 18:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite DNBIE}}
:
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |short=
ignored (
help)Can anyone please help! The 2ndsupp=2 field to link to the 1912 supplement does not function correctly. For instance: the Bramwell-example given in the documentation does not work. What goes wrong? -- Dick Bos ( talk) 08:44, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "They should not be use unless" to "They should not be used unless". Chris the speller yack 20:59, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
See Template talk:DNB#Section parameter -- PBS ( talk) 07:08, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Is the little round icon necessary? It doesn't seem too useful; I can barely see it, and when I enlarge it, it's nothing recognizable to me. If it's truly neccessary, can it become clickable, or present a tooltip that explains what it is? -- Mikeblas ( talk) 16:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Just to let you know: as far as I can see: I can use parameter "authorlink", but "author-link" does not work seem to work here (it does in Template:Cite EB1911, although it's not mentioned there). Perhaps it would be good to make this uniform. See also Template:Cite book. In the doc-text "author-link" is used, but at other places also "authorlink".
One other thing: parameter "author-mask" does not work here either.
Greetings, -- Dick Bos ( talk) 10:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
{{
cite DNB/sandbox}}
to use
Module:Template wrapper which will allow {{
cite DNB}}
, when updated, to use any of the parameters normally available to {{
cite encyclopedia}}
without the need to add special parameter handling code to this template. The sandbox apparently works; see
Template:cite DNB/testcases.Using {{
cite DNB12}}
this example:
using {{
cite DNB}}
(change the template name and add |2ndsupp=2
):
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |2ndsupp=
ignored (
help)According to this
image at s.en.wiki Lee is the editor so why does {{cite DNB}}
name Stephen as the editor? Pretty sure that this difference has nothing to do with my recent changes to this template (prove this to your selves by selecting a recent version of the template, click edit and place the name of this talk page in Preview page with this template and click the adjacent Show preview button). Is there a reason for the rendering discrepancy or simply an oversight?
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 15:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
|supplement=1
(live):
{{Cite DNB|first=D'Arcy|last=Power|pages=331–332|volume=1|wstitle=Bucknill, John Charles|supplement=1}}
{{Cite DNB/sandbox|first=D'Arcy|last=Power|pages=331–332|volume=1|wstitle=Bucknill, John Charles|supplement=1}}
|supplement=2
(live):
{{cite DNB |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|2ndsupp=2}}
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |2ndsupp=
ignored (
help){{cite DNB/sandbox |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|supplement=2}}
|supplement=
. This insource
search found ~70 articles that use |supplement=
. There are a variety of values assigned to that parameter but I can replace anything the doesn't look like 2
or 1912
with 1
with an awb script. Anything that looks like 2
or 1912
bears closer inspection.|2ndsupp=
. Here too, a simple awb script to change |2ndsupp=<whatever>
to |supplement=2
will clean that up just prior to updating the live template from its sandbox. So, without objection, I shall do these things.|supplement=2
:
{{cite DNB |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|supplement=2}}
Is there a reason that this template does not add |ref=harv
by default?
Edmund Law Lushington, as one example among many, has a short reference "Bayne 1901" that is intended to link to the full citation, but the link is silently broken. In a short article with just two or three references, this is no big deal, but in a longer article, readers are left hunting for the full citation. I can't think of any downside to adding |ref=harv
as a default for this template. Thoughts? –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
22:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
|ref=harv
as a default, I have copied the way that |ref=
is used in that template. This will fix invisible linking problems in many hundreds of articles. Please post a note here if this change has broken anything. –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
13:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
{{
DNB}}
which is only ever used as a citation. Similarly if you had looked through the {{
cite ODNB}}
talk page you would have found a discussion as to whether or not to include ref=harv in the template and why it was decided to set it by default --
PBS (
talk)
13:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
. The outliers were the attribution templates that by default set the parameter ref=harv (as was done with {{
citation}}
), because such attribution templates should only be used if there was text copied from a source. You say "The change above, as far as I know, fixed actual errors in actual articles", but it could also introduce errors. For example if there were two citations using the same author and date in an article and one of them was in further reading. Turning on this parameter could cause a link to be made to the wrong long reference. Having the same author and date is not uncommon for sources such as the DNB as one scholar will often contribute all the articles to a dynasty and because they are listed alphabetically they will be published in the same volume (hence the same date). --
PBS (
talk)
16:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
|ref=harv
to the CS1 templates by default. Happily, there are only 57 articles in
Category:Harv and Sfn multiple-target errors that
also transclude Template:Cite DNB. I will take a look at them to see if the above change caused any of those errors (some are no doubt caused by other templates) and fix any problems that I am able to fix. –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
17:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This should have Category:Templates that wrap Cite encyclopedia. (I don't have permissions.) Smallus Editus ( talk) 14:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
As proposed at
Template talk:Cite EB1911#Provide default language setting, I think it would be right to provide a default |language=en
to {{
Cite encyclopedia}}, for those rare cases when a reference is copied to another-language wiki. There should be no visible difference in en wikis. Makes sense? I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper works, but I'll go ahead and try if nobody objects.
David Brooks (
talk)
22:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper worksIs there something wrong with Module:template wrapper or how it implements this template?
|language=en
is trivial. I do not object.|language=xx
in the source invocation when referring to a book that is known to be entirely in English. Would that be acceptable policy?This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add code to force "language=en": the book is entirely in English and this will trigger the "other language" flag in case the citation is copied uncritically to another language wiki. Discussed at Template talk:Cite DNB#Provide default language setting. The new code is in the sandbox and appropriately tested. This should also flow through to Template:DNB. David Brooks ( talk) 16:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
To note that s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1927 supplement is now available on Wikisource. To me, as an outsider, it looks like updating this template so that {{ cite DNB27}} and {{ DNB27}} can be created on the DNB12 models should be relatively straightforward, with 3 for 2. But I don't think I should be doing that. @ PBS: @ Billinghurst: Charles Matthews ( talk) 05:57, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
{{cite DNB27/sandbox|author=Charles Venn Owen|wstitle=Watson, Charles Moore}}
Wikisource Unassessed ( inactive) | |||||||
|
Dictionary of National Biography | ||||
|
I have recently upgraded the {{ 1911}} and {{ Catholic}} templates. I would like to do the same to this one and {{ DNB}} but instead of having {{ DNB}} as a wrapper around {{ cite encyclopedia}} I would like to have it as a wrapper around this template. To do that I would like to:
To make these changes. I propose to
Comments welcome. -- PBS ( talk) 01:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Changes made -- PBS ( talk) 12:32, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
I propose to move this template from {{ DNB Cite}} to "{{ cite DNB}} as it fits in better with names like {{ cite web}} {{ cite encyclopedia}} etc. -- PBS ( talk) 12:37, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Bob I think this edit this edit is a retrograde step, do you know of any usage of the template where this is a problem, because I think I went through all of of them from unamed parameter to named parameter when when I put this template in. -- PBS ( talk) 18:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I've checked and I did -- PBS ( talk)
comment
parameter is just as useless, and it would be better just to let people know in the doc they can put what text they want after the template. This will help them in other situations as well.wstitle
is "custom" as far as standard {{
cite}} parameters, and a variant customization doesn't, to me, seem like too much. wstitle
still has priority.author
parameter has stopped working, although first
and last
still work fine. I noticed this before I made my edit to this template. Looking at the code for this template, I don't see the problem. It still works for {{
Cite encyclopedia}}. I notice it has been omitted from the documentation, but of course this shouldn't matter, but it should be documented as well, which I can do if it ever starts working again.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
21:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)I think this discussion should be carried on at Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography, or at least that project should be notified of it, if only to get more feedback. That is one place where your "proposed changes" notification should have been posted. Revision of templates is on the agenda there. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the use of having {{ DNB}} as a separate template. I think one could incorporate an option in {{ Cite DNB}} to activate the "incorporate text from pub in pd" notice. This dispenses of the need for a separate template I think. See {{ Cite Americana}} for an example. The major retrofitting problem I see is {{ DNB}} doesn't require a title, but a default title in {{ Cite DNB}}, something like "Title Needed", would fix this, and perhaps promote less vague citations. It seems like this is something that could be usefully done for other template pairs as well, like {{ Cite EB1911}} and {{ 1911}}. I have joined Wikipedia:WikiProject Dictionary of National Biography, and I will look for an appropriate place to introduce this discussion, and also the discussion on no-argument parameters. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 17:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help) and {{
DNB}} and {{
Cite DNB}}, there already existed two templates one with an attribution string and the other without. I created the {{
cite EB1911}} modelled on those after you Bob raised the issue of the problem with {{
Wikisource1911Enc citation}}
[1] it seemed to me the cleanest solution (for the reasons given before) --
PBS (
talk)
09:13, 21 April 2011 (UTC)I think you need to bring more people into your decision making. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 20:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I don't use either of those template pairs. I mean as in {{
1911}} (and I imagine the same is true for {{
DNB}}) it is not required to supply a wstitle
or article
parameter setting, whereas in {{
Cite DNB}} this is required. Just having one template to remember and one set of documentation I think makes up for a few more parameters to remember. Actually I can only see the need for one more parameter, and that's the one to turn on the verbatim public domain inclusion message.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
20:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
In this context, London should not be wikilinked - I have attempted to remove the link. -- Amitchell125 ( talk) 08:05, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I think the year range 1885-1900 should appear only when the volume hasn't been specified and the year is not known, and it should be the setting for the year parameter rather than part of the publication name. There must be a way of making 1885-1900 the default for the switch statement and removing it from where it is now. For the supplement, the modifier "(supplement)" should appear after "D...N...B...", but not the year. In that case the default for year can be 1901 instead of 1885-1900. I will do this once I've consulted the doc on the switch statement. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 19:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
[[s:{{{wstitle|}}} (DNB01){{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
which links to the appropriate Wikisource project.--
PBS (
talk)
15:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)I did not know about this template. As you know, I see no need for two templates for every project since I have found it is very easy to have an argument that activates the message display when text is being incorporated verbatim. And I think it is easier just to have a template with a single "supplement" arg instead of two templates with a lot of duplicate code for that job as well. However, I would not have gone to the effort of doing the implementation if I had known about the other template, {{ Cite DNBSupp}}. But since I have gone to the trouble, I think I would retain the changes, and in consideration of people who want to cite DNB, I would not introduce this second template just for the supplement. Also {{ Cite DNBSupp}} suffers from the same problem that {{ Cite DNB}} does. Having 1901 twice makes no sense. At most, a simple "(supplement)" after "D...N...B..." is needed, and actually just the year is enough. So my proposal is to only display the range (1885-1900) if the volume is not specified. And for the supplement, to only display the year. 1901 says it all. No need for the word supplement to appear anywhere I think. But I could live with it. 1901 appearing twice does not look good though. And I think the second set of templates for the supplement should be junked. If you do insist on them, you should at least put a notice in the "see also" of {{ Cite DNB}}, but I would prefer if you didn't since I don't think it is useful, especially now that {{ Cite DNB}} easily handles this issue. I think a similar edit should be made to {{ DNB}} to give it the same flexibility. But actually I think it should be junked as well, and an arg added to {{ Cite DNB}} to create a verbatim message. Think of the ease of maintenance ... only one template to change instead of four. And I think users would find it easier as well. Bob Burkhardt ( talk) 20:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
So I have carried this out, and also added the vb
parameter so the appropriate message can be displayed when DNB text is copied into a Wikipedia article. The only thing lacking is adding a category, if this is thought necessary, when text is copied. It does not add a lot of complexity to the template, and now one template can be used where four were thought necessary before. Seems a major improvement to me. I do not do this lightly. I have been experimenting with this approach with {{
Cite Americana}} and templates for other encyclopedias, and it seems effective. I would be inclined to extend {{
Cite EB1911}} this way as well, but I have no plans to at this point.
Bob Burkhardt (
talk)
22:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Is it me or does the accessdate parameter not work? violet/riga [talk] 22:42, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
{{Cite DNB|accessdate=August 2012}}
:
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: |access-date=
requires |url=
(
help); Check date values in: |access-date=
(
help); Missing or empty |title=
(
help){{Cite DNB|url=http://xx|accessdate=August 2012}}
:
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900
http://xx. Retrieved August 2012. {{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Check |url=
value (
help); Check date values in: |access-date=
(
help); Missing or empty |title=
(
help)Currently the icons produced by this template link to their file description pages. This could be confusing, and is of little use to anyone. I propose we remove the links, or at least link the icons to something more relevant. Any objections? -- Noiratsi ( talk) 15:34, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Another editor has pointed out to me that a user script unintentionally broke links to Wikisource articles by changing a hyphen in a date range to an endash.
There is a conflict of style guides. MOS:ENDASH specifies an endash between two dates. The main Wikisource style guide is mute on the topic. However, the DNB Project Style Manual specifies a hyphen between the two dates of an article disambiguator.
Editors at Wikipedia, may not be aware of the Wikisource style specification. A couple of things might be done:
{{cite DNB}}
to link to the hyphen-disambiguated article title but display the endash-disambiguated article title.The first two seem the best to me though I can imagine that editors unfamiliar with Wikisource might not be comfortable creating redirects there.
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 12:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I have today added the parameter 2ndsupp
to allow for the easier addition of the 1912 supplement. Add the parameter with anything as the variable, though for the example I have utilised the number 2 so that it is a little more evident that it is different. It has just been a heavy-handed hack with the one additional parameter, rather than something graceful that utilises the existing supplement parameter, partly laziness, and partly due to not knowing how well the existing parameter has been used. —
billinghurst
sDrewth
01:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
{{DNB Cite|wstitle=Humbert, Albert Jenkins}}
generates .
Dictionary of National Biography. London: Smith, Elder & Co. 1885–1900.|date=
in this citation. It's not obvious that the way to remove the error is to add |volume=
, as follows:
{{DNB Cite|wstitle=Humbert, Albert Jenkins|volume=28}}
generates
Lee, Sidney, ed. (1891). .
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 28. London: Smith, Elder & Co.|wstitle=
parameter, it could be done by bot (e.g. If |wstitle=
is between Aa and Ar add |volume=1
, if between As and Be add |volume=2
, etc.)Any suggestions? GoingBatty ( talk) 15:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite DNB/sandbox}}
that will add pages to
Category:DNB citations missing parameters when none of |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
are set regardless of namespace. See
testcases.{{
cite DNB}}
. I'm not in a hurry. Are you?#ifeq:
. I put it outside so that the category would catch all instances where |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
are not set. We can decide to limit categorization to certain namespaces, if necessary, at a later date.{{#ifeq: {{NAMESPACEE}} |<!--is set-->| ...}}
construct isn't at all clear to me. Magic word {{NAMESPACEE}}
simply returns the name of the namespace. For example, this talk page is in: Template_talk. Is it possible to use {{cite DNB}}
outside of a namespace? And if so, do we care? Is this construct an incomplete attempt to limit
Category:Articles incorporating Cite DNB template and
Category:Articles incorporating Cite DNB template with an unnamed parameter to certain namespaces? As it is now, if the page is located in a namespace, then it is included in those categories.{{cite DNB}}
citation out of
Category:CS1 errors: dates. Those three parameters are |2ndsupp=2
, |supplement=1
, and |volume=
.add a similar construct to {{ DNB}} because from the category point of view they are treated separately.How are they treated separately? It is and has been my intent to do one template (
{{cite DNB}}
) and then when the kinks are ironed out, do the other.@
Trappist the monk the test on {{NAMESPACEE}}
does not work as you think it does. Please have a look at the template
user: PBS/test and then add it to the top of a couple of different spaces including article space (there is no need to save the page, just edit it include the template and click on [show preview]). However that was not what I was talking about but rather the test:
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}<!--DNB-text is passed in by {{DNB}} and bypass these categories-->
Which is a parameter passed in by {{ DNB}} when it calls {{ cite DNB}} to allow separate categories to be maintained by the two different templates. -- PBS ( talk) 14:49, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test. Shouldn't we want to know when editors use {{
DNB}}
without |volume=
?{{
DNB}}
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test in {{
cite DNB}}
{{
DNB}}
{{#if: {{{DNB-text|}}}... }}
test in {{
cite DNB}}
How about I make a request for a bot to go through all the articles with {{
Cite DNB}} and {{
DNB}} (and their various redirects), and if the templates don't have |volume=
, the bot would follow the link to find the volume and add it appropriately?
GoingBatty (
talk)
04:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
On as slight tangent t the discussion over volume, there are dozens of these types of PD templates (I come across new ones fairly regularly, the most recent one is {{ Bryan}} which has not yet been converted to be a wrapper around a standard citation template as has {{ DNB}}). Most of the ones I know about have been converted into three:
{{name}}, {{cite name}}
and {{name poster}}
as in
You will find a higgledy piggledy list in user:PBS/Notes#List of PD Templates. Nearly all of them use a parameter "wstitle=" to construct a path on Wikisource to an article on Wikisource while the parameter "title=" can be used with "url=" in the standard way to link to an external source if an article is missing on Wikisource (something which is quite common with encyclopaedias like {{ EB1911}}). The biggest problem I perceive with many of these PD templates is that one prolific user of these PD templates has insisted on using an unnamed parameter as an alternative to "wstitle=" because "As far as the unnamed parameter, I think it is more convenient." (see above #Unnamed parameter). This was a position he held before the introduction of "CS1" and I think it is even less justified now than it was then because at the moment many of these PD templates can not pass the unnamed parameter through {{ cite encyclopedia}} (or similar) and on to "CS1" to error check an unnamed parameter in the usual way. The trouble in the past with reaching a consensus -- on the use of unnamed parameters in these PD templates to link to Wikisource articles -- has been that up to now, usually only he an I have turned up for such debates on the talk page of templates as most editors are not interested in such details. For example there is a categories for {{ cite DNB}} and {{ DNB}} which if we could get agreement to pass unnamed parameters to CS1 could be processed to extract those that need moving to "wstile=":
Given that CS1 can error check unnamed parameters, I think it is time to remove the mapping between unnamed parameters and wstitle. What do others think? -- PBS ( talk) 11:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
{{{1}}}
from {{
cite DNB}}
.To editor PBS: Yes, it actually does produce a CS1 bad date error when a date range is used. We must pick a date, and I usually go with the most recent year. The only way for you to actually see this is when you have entered the code in your .css file for the skin (for example, "Vector") you use to edit this encyclopedia. In my /vector.css file is the code...
.citation-comment { display: inline !important; color: red; }
That allows me to see all the CS1 errors that are generated in red in the References/Notes sections of articles. I'm going to once again get rid of that error and do not expect to be reverted again. It is especially important with this type of template, because just one CS1 error here shows up in every single article in which this template is transcluded and the volume param is not used. Thank you for your understanding. There may be a way to make the date/year parameter accept a date-range, but that would have to be submitted and discussed on the
appropriate talk page. –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
16:26, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
PS. How is
all this going for you? PS added by –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
PPS. I see from discussions on this page and others that solutions are being implemented to eliminate this type of error. The date range actually acts as an error catcher for the bot. Not all of them have been caught, obviously, because it is just such an error that lead me here. So please disregard the above, because I have added the volume number to the specific {{
Cite DNB}} template and eliminated the CS1 bad date error in that way. Joys! PPS added by –
Paine Ellsworth
CLIMAX!
May I suggest the inclusion of a subsection? It could be added under the heading "Examples" and follow the subsection "Other parameters; add a comment". It may appear as follows...
Omitted parameters
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Gosnold, Bartholomew |short=x}}
which lacks the "volume" parameter displays as:
Dictionary of National Biography. 1885–1900. Check date values in: |date= ( help)
.to those editors who have enabled CS1 error detection. This is easy to fix:
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Gosnold, Bartholomew |short=x |volume=22}}
which displays as:
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 22. 1890.
.The inclusion of the volume parameter also adds the correct date, so the CS1 error will not appear.
Note: The CS1 error also appears in the example at the top of this page. This is normal, so please do not "fix it".
(end of suggested inclusion) – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 16:09, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
It has been about a week since I made this suggestion, so if there are no objections I shall go ahead and include the above clarification in a few hours. – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 17:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
See Template talk:DNB#Unnamed parameters -- PBS ( talk) 18:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
This template is not linking to Wikisource properly when "2ndsupp" is specified. The suffix should be "(DNB12)" instead of "(DNB00)". I have added a proposed fix to the sandbox. Library Guy ( talk) 16:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
Per
Trappist the monk's second proposed option at
#Hyphens and dashes and Wikisource disambiguators, can somebody please tweak the coding for this template, so that hyphens in year ranges appear as en dashes (without affecting the link to Wikisource)? I would note that hyphens are automatically converted to en dashes in {{
Cite book}}
with the |pages=
parameter: {{cite book |title=Foo |pages=1-3}}
appears as Foo. pp. 1–3. (without affecting the source text). Can something similar be done in regards to this template? Thanks.--
Nevé
–
selbert
10:23, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
[[s:{{{wstitle|}}} {{#if: {{{supplement|}}} | (DNB01) | (DNB00) }}{{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
[[s:{{#invoke:String|replace|source={{{wstitle|}}}|pattern=%((%d+)%–(%d+)%)|replace=(%1-%2)|plain=false}} {{#if: {{{supplement|}}} | (DNB01) | (DNB00) }}{{!}}{{{wstitle|}}}]]
{{#invoke:String}}
bit sufficiently to believe that it will work in the template but have not tested it in the template.I've been through the first 20 volumes by eye. These are the letters combinations I saw. I expected to see (c. yyyy) but there were none the last two are outliers there were no other ones I noticed like them:
-- PBS ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
c. YYYY-YYYY
but I suspect that circa years are handled in a standardized way by the question-mark suffix.As it happens there is a discussion in progress on Wikisource DNB project s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject DNB#Time to talk DNB redirect articles which is probably a more failsafe way to fix this problem. I suggest that it is requested there that a bot is run to create ndash redirects in all cases where a dash is used in a dab page. -- PBS ( talk) 18:54, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Your change shows a different title than Wikisource has, do you believe that is the correct way to go? If you want a suggestion, how about you have it that if there is a mindless change by local users incorrectly applying a rule that the template renders here with a hyphen, irrespective of whether they use a hyphen or an en dash in their link.
The best failsafe way to implement this template is to utilise wikidata where each of these biographies has its item, and we call the item through its association with the d:Property:P1343 (described by source) and the "stated in" qualifier. — billinghurst sDrewth 00:22, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
proposed, which was to have the hyphens to appear as en dashes while the source stays the same.
display
parameter. No such parameter exists at the moment in this template, but it does exist in many other similar templates such as {{
cite EB1911}}
. --
PBS (
talk)
06:41, 26 September 2017 (UTC)|wstitle=
|wstitle=
should use endashes (
Neve-selbert); the displayed |wstitle=
should use hyphens (billinghurst). I don't think that much progress can be made here until that basic disagreement is resolved.The articles at English Wikisource use a hyphen in their name and that should be respected. They are not part of a Wikipedia style, nor do they need to be. Stop thinking that other sites need to align to the body style, and cite the works appropriately.
|wstitle=
which, before the change, would have broken the link to wikisource but with the change maintained a working link despite a malformed rendering. You reverted because a working link with a malformed rendering is somehow worse than a broken link with a malformed rendering. How is the modified template worse than the existing template where one at least works and the other doesn't?that other sites need to align to the body style. I can't imagine how this misperception is legitimate grounds for reversion.
{{
cite book}}
|pages=
one, without affecting the source formatting.--
Nevé
–
selbert
06:14, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
{{
CE1913}}
where page numbers are not available
s:Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/English Confessors and Martyrs (1534-1729). How would your proposal deal with the move of pages from one location to another. Are you proposing that we use external https links or the
Interwikimedia links used currently in theses templates? --
PBS (
talk)
12:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
|pages=
example is just an example of how one can have hyphens to appear as en dashes for readers while the source formatting remains the same. Secondly, I do not believe that the proposal will have to deal with the move of pages from one location to another (the source is not affected in this proposal). Whether we use external or interwikimedia links will have to be decided, I have no strong opinion. To be clear, all hyphens that precede/succeed a number will be shown as en dashes (
double-barrelled names will not be affected) in what I am proposing.--
Nevé
–
selbert
15:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)So that we can see the scale of the problem and fix any links that are broken I have added the code that Trappist the monk wrote to select for links to Wikisource with an ndash between dates. The category is:
I have forced some articles into the category (empty edits), but it will take some time before it is fully populated by all the articles. -- PBS ( talk) 10:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
As of the time stamp at the end of this post there were 77 articles where the wstitle= contained a ndash inplaced of a dash. As there in total 9,437 articles with template that links to a wikisource article that is <1%. -- PBS ( talk) 09:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I have added a display= parameter to the template:
The text in the display parameter will mask the Wikisource article name provided to the wstitle parameter. As the text can be anything editors are free to mask the dateranges in a Wikisource article with either no daterange or a using ndash in place of a the dash commonly used on Wikisource.
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |volume=63}}
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |display=Wren, Christopher (1632–1723) |volume=63}}
{{cite DNB|wstitle=Wren, Christopher (1632-1723) |display=Wren, Sir Christopher |volume=63}}
@ User:Neve-selbert does that work for you? -- PBS ( talk) 15:05, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
is a good enough solution. And I still cannot wrap my head around why this proposal is so controversial. Is
ISO 8601 a concern for you or something? I must reiterate that hyphenated names won't be affected in this proposal, only date ranges.--
Nevé
–
selbert
16:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
, why not modify the template so that it removes the date ranges automatically per
WP:PIPETRICK? That way, there wouldn't be any need to use |display=
to hide the ranges.--
Nevé
–
selbert
02:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)As there is not a consensus for the change you wish to make, and the display option is an alternative, why not use it? -- PBS ( talk) 18:14, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Per
wikisource:Page:Dictionary of National Biography volume 01.djvu/19, the original source
uses the en dash and not a hyphen for date ranges, i.e. ABBOT, GEORGE (1562–1633) not ABBOT, GEORGE (1562-1633). Please can editor modify this template so that hyphens that appear before and/or after an integer appear automatically as en dashes, in the same way hyphens are automatically converted at {{
cite book}}
with |pages=
, i.e. {{cite book |title=Foo |pages=1-2}} appearing as Foo. pp. 1–2..--
Nevé
–
selbert
19:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
display=
parameter then the content of the wstitle
parameter will not appear in Wikipedia articles. --
PBS (
talk)
09:35, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
|display=
function is unnecessary and should be removed. The hyphens ought to be converted automatically.--
Nevé
–
selbert
03:35, 25 October 2017 (UTC)I raise the issue on s:Wikisource talk:WikiProject DNB#Hyphens, en dashes and redirects because if there had been a consensus there to make a change from dash to ndash or to add redirect, (which there does not appear to be), then that would have solved the problem without any change here.
user:Billinghurst has rejected the Lua solution and you are refusing to use a display parameter, so unless you can get more people involved who support your preferred solution, this is not going to be resolved.
I also think that you, User:Neve-selbert are missing the fact that the DNB does use date ranges in its biography titles. As such it is not relevant if the text within an article uses ndash or dash because the date range is not part of the DNB section heading (it is a dab extension added for technical reasons by editors on Wikisource). Using the display parameter allows the title of the DNB article to appear in a Wikipedia {{ cite DNB}} template as it does in the original (with suitable alterations for upper-case to lower-case). -- PBS ( talk) 18:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite DNBIE}}
:
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |short=
ignored (
help)Can anyone please help! The 2ndsupp=2 field to link to the 1912 supplement does not function correctly. For instance: the Bramwell-example given in the documentation does not work. What goes wrong? -- Dick Bos ( talk) 08:44, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "They should not be use unless" to "They should not be used unless". Chris the speller yack 20:59, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
See Template talk:DNB#Section parameter -- PBS ( talk) 07:08, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
Is the little round icon necessary? It doesn't seem too useful; I can barely see it, and when I enlarge it, it's nothing recognizable to me. If it's truly neccessary, can it become clickable, or present a tooltip that explains what it is? -- Mikeblas ( talk) 16:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Just to let you know: as far as I can see: I can use parameter "authorlink", but "author-link" does not work seem to work here (it does in Template:Cite EB1911, although it's not mentioned there). Perhaps it would be good to make this uniform. See also Template:Cite book. In the doc-text "author-link" is used, but at other places also "authorlink".
One other thing: parameter "author-mask" does not work here either.
Greetings, -- Dick Bos ( talk) 10:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
{{
cite DNB/sandbox}}
to use
Module:Template wrapper which will allow {{
cite DNB}}
, when updated, to use any of the parameters normally available to {{
cite encyclopedia}}
without the need to add special parameter handling code to this template. The sandbox apparently works; see
Template:cite DNB/testcases.Using {{
cite DNB12}}
this example:
using {{
cite DNB}}
(change the template name and add |2ndsupp=2
):
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |2ndsupp=
ignored (
help)According to this
image at s.en.wiki Lee is the editor so why does {{cite DNB}}
name Stephen as the editor? Pretty sure that this difference has nothing to do with my recent changes to this template (prove this to your selves by selecting a recent version of the template, click edit and place the name of this talk page in Preview page with this template and click the adjacent Show preview button). Is there a reason for the rendering discrepancy or simply an oversight?
— Trappist the monk ( talk) 15:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
|supplement=1
(live):
{{Cite DNB|first=D'Arcy|last=Power|pages=331–332|volume=1|wstitle=Bucknill, John Charles|supplement=1}}
{{Cite DNB/sandbox|first=D'Arcy|last=Power|pages=331–332|volume=1|wstitle=Bucknill, John Charles|supplement=1}}
|supplement=2
(live):
{{cite DNB |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|2ndsupp=2}}
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: Unknown parameter |2ndsupp=
ignored (
help){{cite DNB/sandbox |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|supplement=2}}
|supplement=
. This insource
search found ~70 articles that use |supplement=
. There are a variety of values assigned to that parameter but I can replace anything the doesn't look like 2
or 1912
with 1
with an awb script. Anything that looks like 2
or 1912
bears closer inspection.|2ndsupp=
. Here too, a simple awb script to change |2ndsupp=<whatever>
to |supplement=2
will clean that up just prior to updating the live template from its sandbox. So, without objection, I shall do these things.|supplement=2
:
{{cite DNB |first=Augustus Robert |last=Buckland |wstitle=Perowne, Edward Henry|volume=3|supplement=2}}
Is there a reason that this template does not add |ref=harv
by default?
Edmund Law Lushington, as one example among many, has a short reference "Bayne 1901" that is intended to link to the full citation, but the link is silently broken. In a short article with just two or three references, this is no big deal, but in a longer article, readers are left hunting for the full citation. I can't think of any downside to adding |ref=harv
as a default for this template. Thoughts? –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
22:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
|ref=harv
as a default, I have copied the way that |ref=
is used in that template. This will fix invisible linking problems in many hundreds of articles. Please post a note here if this change has broken anything. –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
13:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
{{
DNB}}
which is only ever used as a citation. Similarly if you had looked through the {{
cite ODNB}}
talk page you would have found a discussion as to whether or not to include ref=harv in the template and why it was decided to set it by default --
PBS (
talk)
13:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
. The outliers were the attribution templates that by default set the parameter ref=harv (as was done with {{
citation}}
), because such attribution templates should only be used if there was text copied from a source. You say "The change above, as far as I know, fixed actual errors in actual articles", but it could also introduce errors. For example if there were two citations using the same author and date in an article and one of them was in further reading. Turning on this parameter could cause a link to be made to the wrong long reference. Having the same author and date is not uncommon for sources such as the DNB as one scholar will often contribute all the articles to a dynasty and because they are listed alphabetically they will be published in the same volume (hence the same date). --
PBS (
talk)
16:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
|ref=harv
to the CS1 templates by default. Happily, there are only 57 articles in
Category:Harv and Sfn multiple-target errors that
also transclude Template:Cite DNB. I will take a look at them to see if the above change caused any of those errors (some are no doubt caused by other templates) and fix any problems that I am able to fix. –
Jonesey95 (
talk)
17:13, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This should have Category:Templates that wrap Cite encyclopedia. (I don't have permissions.) Smallus Editus ( talk) 14:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
As proposed at
Template talk:Cite EB1911#Provide default language setting, I think it would be right to provide a default |language=en
to {{
Cite encyclopedia}}, for those rare cases when a reference is copied to another-language wiki. There should be no visible difference in en wikis. Makes sense? I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper works, but I'll go ahead and try if nobody objects.
David Brooks (
talk)
22:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with how the template wrapper worksIs there something wrong with Module:template wrapper or how it implements this template?
|language=en
is trivial. I do not object.|language=xx
in the source invocation when referring to a book that is known to be entirely in English. Would that be acceptable policy?This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add code to force "language=en": the book is entirely in English and this will trigger the "other language" flag in case the citation is copied uncritically to another language wiki. Discussed at Template talk:Cite DNB#Provide default language setting. The new code is in the sandbox and appropriately tested. This should also flow through to Template:DNB. David Brooks ( talk) 16:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
To note that s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1927 supplement is now available on Wikisource. To me, as an outsider, it looks like updating this template so that {{ cite DNB27}} and {{ DNB27}} can be created on the DNB12 models should be relatively straightforward, with 3 for 2. But I don't think I should be doing that. @ PBS: @ Billinghurst: Charles Matthews ( talk) 05:57, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
{{cite DNB27/sandbox|author=Charles Venn Owen|wstitle=Watson, Charles Moore}}