The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 ( talk) 04:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Justin Holland

• ... that Justin Holland was an American classical guitarist, music pedagogue, community leader, and equal-rights activist for African-Americans?

Created by Jacqke ( talk). Self nominated at 09:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC).

• I don't think we should be doing hooks about pedagogues. EEng ( talk) 13:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• New (17th), long enough, 2nd DYK so no QPQ necessary. On copyvio, there are some significant signs of close paraphrasing that should be recast. [1] On neutrality, I think "He would work all his life, advancing the causes of his race." should be rephrased, though the rest is fine. One major problem: the second ref (Homestead.com) is an unreliable, user-created source. It needs to be removed and preferably replaced with a better alternative. Please ping me if I don't respond. czar  ♔ 23:42, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

But do you think we should be doing hooks about pedagogues? EEng ( talk) 00:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I saw the innuendo, but as my field is alternative education, I was inclined to quip about how pedagogues actually are harmful to children (and that would surely take us even further off-topic...) czar  ♔ 05:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's have a cease-fire on this one. EEng ( talk) 16:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I found the source that the unreliable website used, an academic paper. I can cite that paper instead. And work on the rephrasing. So, was the comment about pedagogue real? Is the objection the sesquipedelian nature of the word, pedagogue, or an objection to a connotation for the word. I meant it simply as one who designs a course of education for others, and not necessarily children. The word implies strictness, but one could also say that some disciplines require high or strict standards (classical music and physics are two disciplines where pedagogy/a strict standard is still appropriate). Jacqke ( talk) 15:51, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It was a tongue-in-cheek joke (depending on your read). Anyway, don't mind that. An academic paper sounds good on the surface, but make sure you're citing from that paper and not hearsay from an unreliable site that claims to be from a paper (the quintessence of why we don't use unreliable sources). czar  ♔ 16:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Went through academic paper to make sure it covered all material in this article. I added and revised based on that source, using my own words (I think!) It would be nice to get to the original sources cited in that paper, but I won't be able to get at them any time soon. My biggest concern is the line referring to Frederick Douglass (I just removed it). The paper used his name along with Holland's as prominent black leaders. It does not say that they worked together directly, even though both were involved in the National Councils. Jacqke ( talk) 17:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Some background information in the hook will make the remarkable nature of these achievements more obvious:

• ALT1 ... that African-American Justin Holland (1819–1887) was a community leader and abolitionist as well as "one of America's most influential guitar pedagogues", nationally known for his classical arrangements?

It's a tight fit but I wanted to get in that he was black, and the century, and the "classical" because these together make it quite remarkable. So I had to drop some other points. I want to say that this is really the kind of DYK we should have more of -- things that are really interesting and enlightening, instead of just miscellaneous facts. EEng ( talk) 21:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

That sounds good. Would we keep pedagogue in the article? I changed it to teacher in the introduction thinking out would be easier to understand, but that can be changed back. Jacqke ( talk) 22:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Belle, can you please explain? I have to go to dinner. EEng ( talk) 02:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Do I need. to do anything more for this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacqke ( talk • contribs)

Just wait for a reviewer to come along. EEng ( talk) 04:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm not sure about the reliability of the Clemenson piece since it was presented at a symposium and likely has no editorial oversight. There's a professor at Case by the same name, so perhaps that's her? I'd be curious if you know anything more about that... Otherwise, both hooks look good but I'm having trouble sourcing the information in the books since there are no page numbers listed! Can you help me out? czar  ♔ 16:42, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I added page numbers for The Guitar and Mandolin, and made sure the other book has page numbers and links to those pages. Do you need page numbers broken down from the research paper? Jacqke ( talk) 00:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Usually I like to give page #s but it's really not required for papers (as opposed to books). If want to, though, there's a great template {{ rp}} you use like this.

<ref>{{cite news |author=Smith, J.|work=Some Journal|date=May 11, 2014}}</ref>{{rp|284}}

This is hard because a bunch of vague facts are sourced to a vague sentence with imprecise refs. The first three sentence and its three refs would appear to cover the main hook, but where is his association with abolitionism and equality mentioned in the reference? Sorry this is taking so long czar  ♔ 17:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The comment about him being an abolitionist came from an earlier website source that I dropped. Looking at the academic paper, it is never said that he was an abolitionist. It does say that "Cleveland's leading citizens, both black and white, increasingly aided captured fugitives and spirited them and others to freedom by means of the Underground Railroad. Justin Holland participated in this work." The context of the paragraphs makes it clear that his being a professional in Cleveland and acting professional was itself an act that raised African-Americans in the community's eyes: "Although part of the reason for whites' accepting attitude [toward Blacks] might have been the small number of blacks they had to absorb into the community, perhaps most important were blacks' active attempts to earn acceptance through their deportment and organization." Need to add to article. Won't have time until tommorow. Jacqke ( talk) 21:55, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I changed the line about abolitionist and added to civil-rights section. Jacqke ( talk) 20:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I removed the abolitionist part from the hook. Here's my problem: I need to pretend that I'm a reader following the hook and find easy verification of his past. Is there a citation for the facts used in the main hook and ALT1 (civil rights leader, birth and death years, etc.) without me having to read through a 17-page document? The facts mentioned in the hook should have immediate refs in the article, ideally with direct page numbers so it's really easy for a curious reader to verify the WP article. Does that make sense? czar  ♔ 22:17, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: I have just pinged the nominator; it has been three weeks since the above response, and time is running out. BlueMoonset ( talk) 21:52, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I had to take a break from the article. My apologies. I will get the changes done tomorrow. Jacqke ( talk) 04:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I took out the general citations for the Clemenson paper and added specific citations to pages in the paper. Jacqke ( talk) 18:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Both hooks check out. And outstanding work with the sources and specific refs. Thanks for putting up with this review czar  ♔ 01:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your taking time to look at this article. Another set of eyes was very useful in getting it right. Jacqke ( talk) 04:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)