- @
Gerda Arendt:@
Cwmhiraeth:@
Gatoclass:
- On the face of it, this is not interesting to me or a broad readership. I see that the piped link at the end
was changed from "a symphony orchestra" for some reason. I think this hook needs rewording to explain why this is so unique.
Yoninah (
talk) 21:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know how to say it short. It's unique that it is a symphony orchestra, an orchestra which doesn't usually perform opera. The link should not have been changed, - the name of the orchestra is too long, imho, also wouldn't tell the reader the difference. What else is not interesting: that the singers play in front? where you see face expression, and understand every word, while they usually play behind a large orchestra, far away, and you need subtitles to know what they sing? Better wording always welcome, but it's highly unusual, even unique until others will imitate. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Like:
- ALT1: ... that in
Der Ring in Minden, a project to present
Wagner's Ring Cycle on
a small stage, the singers performed in front of, rather than behind,
the symphony orchestra?
Yoninah (
talk) 21:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offer, but it needs change to reflect that "rather than behind" is sort of wrong, because usually the orchestra is placed in the orchestra pit, not visible to the audience sitting on the same level (only from the balconies), but yes, usually there's a big distance between the first row of the audience and the stage. Can we focus on the orchestra on stage? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Of course we could simply say that critics praise the Minden miracle (das Wunder von Minden) and similar phrases, but I tried factually to say what makes this miracle.
One critic summarizes: "Minden in Ostwestfalen hat das Unmögliche möglich gemacht und auf einer minimalen Bühne in einer hochkarätigen Besetzung einen Ring auf die Bühne gestellt, der den Vergleich mit den großen Bühnen des Landes keineswegs zu scheuen braucht." (Minden in Ostwestfalen has made the impossible possible and put a ring on stage with a top-class cast on a minimal stage that doesn't have to shy away from comparison with the big stages of the country. - machine translation) - Would "made the impossible possible" be useful for a hook? --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 21:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Taking a look at the article, I think there's potential for a hook based on the part that goes
The singers acted in front of the orchestra, making an intimate approach to the dramatic situations possible. ; however, that part only seems to be mentioned in the lede; if that could be elaborated on in the "Stage and team" section (with a reference), I think that would make for a good hook. Another possibility would be to elaborate on
Yoninah's point about the singers performing in front of the orchestra; apparently it was because of how small the stage was for a Wagner operatic production. Perhaps a hook based on that could work, meaning a hook that goes something like "the singers performed in front of the orchestra because the stage was too small compared to typical Wagner performances"? Having been to a number of plays myself though, I'm not sure how common such an arrangement is, as I've been to a number of plays where the orchestra is also behind or below the performers.
Narutolovehinata5
t
c
csd
new 00:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offers. The lead sentence is a summary of things later, and the psychology thing has been said in the hook for the director, so would be a repetition. - We can't say the stage is too small, because it's the orchestra pit which, as the FAZ critic remarked, is too small to hold a Baroque orchestra (so it was covered, extending the stage). I think we have too little room in the hook to say what is not, - better say what is. I haven't seen all singers in front of the orchestra in my life until I went to Minden, first in 2012. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
The reason I changed the hook from "a symphony orchestra" to "the orchestra" was because I assumed the unusual or "hooky" part was intended to be that the singers performed in front of the orchestra, which is a pretty unusual arrangement (certainly, I've never seen it), and the phrase "a symphony orchestra" detracted from that because it suggested that it's unusual for opera singers to perform with a symphony orchestra. So far as I was aware, opera is always performed with a symphony orchestra - but perhaps that is not the case? Regardless, it wasn't the least bit hooky for anybody who isn't aware of that particular piece of esoterica.
If it's both unusual for opera singers to perform in front of the orchestra, and to perform with a full symphony orchestra, then I think the hook would need a tweak to emphasize those points, but as that would probably prove difficult, then something along the lines of the ALTS suggested above should be adopted.
Gatoclass (
talk) 04:23, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I note that our own article on
pit orchestras states that operas usually are backed with full size, ie symphony orchestras anyway, which is what I thought.
Gatoclass (
talk) 04:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I see your point, and yes, it's unusual for any orchestra to be on stage, and behind the singers. What kind of orchestra is performing opera depends mostly on what kind of opera it is, chamber opera with a chamber orchestra, Baroque opera often with an orchestra dedicated to
historically informed performance, etc. I don't know how to say in a short way that an additional unusual thing about this project is that it was not an orchestra dedicated to opera, such as an orchestra from an opera house, but one dedicated to playing symphony concert, - "symphony orchestra" not only meaning their size but their program. Could I clarify? I also see ERRORS coming saying that piping orchestra to a specific one is an easter egg. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 09:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I found the hook a draw, thinking "Isn't that just a concert staging?"
[1]. I went off to read the article, which explains clearly. I would recommend leaving it as "orchestra".
William Avery (
talk) 10:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Would you have a way to stress that the acting on two levels (spiral staircase) with intense psychological detail was about the opposite of a concert performance? I just don't have the words in English and would need help. The stage was designed by someone who set the same works - which Wagner hated to be called operas - at the
Bayreuth Festival, but he will have his hook. --
Gerda Arendt (
talk) 10:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
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