Somali Arabic was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 May 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Yemeni Arabic. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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It is considered to be the closest to Standard Classical Arabic (the Arabic of the Qur'an).
Removed from article as looks like Yemeni pride - and there is no mention of this fact in any of our articles on arabic. Secretlondon 17:51, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
BigHaz 11:51, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is a fascinating article, but it needs references to sources of information.
The Hadhrami section seems really out of place, being verbatim out of a textbook. It has useful information in it but it needs to be edited to fit the format better. It also uses non-standard grammatical terminology e.g. it refers to verbs being "umlauted" to produce a new measure.
Well, as for the table of letters, the IPA section includes Chinese Characters. An encoding problem probably Ulashima 13:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
-- I've edited out some silly stuff from the hadhrami section, it reads a little easier now. 71.229.63.50 19:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Example: Min Dhi gallak? Who told you. i Classical Arabic: Min Aldhi Gallak/Qallak?
Hey Skatewalk, that's quite a list of regional dialects withing Yemen. When I started this article I was really just trying to get some of the basics down, but it would be great if you could add all of the dialects that you just mentioned. The truth is that there is probably a different dialect in every village of yemen if you consider them closely enough. I'm not sure that I agree with you on the Akhdam, however. They definitely speak differently than other Yemenis, but I don't think that there is one consistent "Akhdam" dialect throughout Yemen. When I lived there my (Yemeni) friends claimed that the Akhdam dialect was derived from Tihami dialects, although that's not necessarily true... It seems like every dialect probably has some sub-dialect spoken by the Akhdam. See if you can't add a few subheadings to the article, if you have the time.
Solumanculver 19:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Adeni Arabic substitutes dental fricatives for dental plosives, [θ] becomes [t], [ð] becomes [d] and the two (classical) emphatic interdental fricative [ð̣] and the emphatic dental plosive [ḍ] are both merged into one sound, namely [ḍ]."
I think that Adeni Arabic uses [ð̣] instead of [ḍ]. Can anyone verify this? I remember being surprised at this fact when I lived in Yemen because Adenis don't use the unemphatic fricatives at all. But in the emphatic form I think they do.
There is a book on Adeni Arabic that I used to own that would be able to clear this question up. Does anybody have it? I think it was called "Adeni Arabic". Solumanculver 17:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
In Adeni Arabic [ḍ] is always used. However, in some quarters of the city and in the speech of some speakers who have affiliation to the hinterland, [ð̣] is used. Generally speaking, the [ð̣]~ [ḍ] can be seen as a sociolinguistic alternation: in young people and female speech [ḍ] is more common.
The sentence "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf], pronouncing them, respectively [qain] and [ġāf]" is unclear, because the first half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces the letters <ġ> and in the same (unspecified) way – a not too surprising phenomenon even if uncommon in Arabic – and the second half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q – such criss-crossing being an extremely uncommon phenomenon. A third possible interpretation (assuming inaccurate wording), would be that Yafi'i speakers have [ġ] for Classical q in *some* words (perhaps most everyday words) and [q] for Classical ġ in some *other* words (perhaps by hypercorrection in words more related to the religious, intellectual, commercial or technical domains). In this case, Yafi'i could be expected not to be uniform, but to vary in this respect according to the background and the attitude of speakers. I wonder what the real situation is.
--
Zxly (
talk) 13:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I wrote that section on Yafi'i, sorry it's so unclear. It's like your possibility two, Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q. It is a systematic feature that occurs uniformly in all speech, not just in specialized words. It's not a hypercorrection, which is a very different phenomenon that occurs, for instance, in the sudan.
In the Sudan people are generally unable to pronounce the classical Qaaf, so in certain formal words they approximate it with a ghain, a form of hypercorrection. In Yafi' the sounds Qaaf and Ghain are systematically switched in everyday words, and even when speaking standard arabic Yafi'i speakers have a tendency to make that switch.
You're right, the phrase "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf]" does seem to say that they pronounce them the same, that is not correct and should be changed.
As for the dialects of LaHj and Abyaan, I'm not sure if they share this feature with Yafi'i... But I'm certain that the situation in Yafi' with respect to these consonants is very different that the situation in the sudan and kuwait.
I'll try to clean that section up 71.229.63.50 ( talk) 03:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
When I say I'm looking for a source that says Yemeni Arabic is spoken in "Somaliland", I don't mean a map that shows Yemeni Arabic being spoken in northwestern Somalia. I mean a source that actually uses the word "Somaliland" to refer to the area in question. This so-called country has no international recognition at all, and including it in the list of countries where Yemeni Arabic is spoken puts undue weight on the minority POV that such a country exists. If all the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - even if most of the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - say the language is spoken in Yemen and Somalia, with no mention of "Somaliland", then that's what the article should reflect. Anything else is fringe-theory POV-pushing. + An gr 05:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I've asked the NPOV noticeboard for more comments. + An gr 05:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) But if you actually look at the map, it is crystal clear that it is not a map of "Omani Arabs", but of Yemeni Arabs. There's no real question about what the map refers to despite what the label on the legend says. That's what I mean by carefully evaluating your sources. You cannot just blindly use a source. And in this part of the world, ethnicity and linguistics more often than not overlap. But until the issue in mediation is resolved, then the status quo should remain in place. -- Taivo ( talk) 03:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
It's important to mention when Yemeni Arabic appeared. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII ( talk) 22:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Somalis speak their own langauge and this source was used to cite that Yemeni Arabic is being spoken in Somalia [1] but there is no mentioning whatsoever that Yemeni Arabic is used in Somalia and Djibouti! Yemeni Arabic is made of several dialects and non of them are used in Somalia. The source provided fails to prove that. It clearly states that Somali language borrowed a lot of words from Arabic in general not Yemen. One sentence mentions that Yemeni Arabic is being used as a second language in northern Somalia especially by traders. Is that enough to include Somalia and Djibouti in the article? It's being used in Southern Saudi Arabia because it's a native dialect of the people where the case in Somalia is different. -- يوسف حسين ( talk) 09:45, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Somali Arabic was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 04 May 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Yemeni Arabic. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is considered to be the closest to Standard Classical Arabic (the Arabic of the Qur'an).
Removed from article as looks like Yemeni pride - and there is no mention of this fact in any of our articles on arabic. Secretlondon 17:51, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
BigHaz 11:51, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is a fascinating article, but it needs references to sources of information.
The Hadhrami section seems really out of place, being verbatim out of a textbook. It has useful information in it but it needs to be edited to fit the format better. It also uses non-standard grammatical terminology e.g. it refers to verbs being "umlauted" to produce a new measure.
Well, as for the table of letters, the IPA section includes Chinese Characters. An encoding problem probably Ulashima 13:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
-- I've edited out some silly stuff from the hadhrami section, it reads a little easier now. 71.229.63.50 19:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Example: Min Dhi gallak? Who told you. i Classical Arabic: Min Aldhi Gallak/Qallak?
Hey Skatewalk, that's quite a list of regional dialects withing Yemen. When I started this article I was really just trying to get some of the basics down, but it would be great if you could add all of the dialects that you just mentioned. The truth is that there is probably a different dialect in every village of yemen if you consider them closely enough. I'm not sure that I agree with you on the Akhdam, however. They definitely speak differently than other Yemenis, but I don't think that there is one consistent "Akhdam" dialect throughout Yemen. When I lived there my (Yemeni) friends claimed that the Akhdam dialect was derived from Tihami dialects, although that's not necessarily true... It seems like every dialect probably has some sub-dialect spoken by the Akhdam. See if you can't add a few subheadings to the article, if you have the time.
Solumanculver 19:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"Adeni Arabic substitutes dental fricatives for dental plosives, [θ] becomes [t], [ð] becomes [d] and the two (classical) emphatic interdental fricative [ð̣] and the emphatic dental plosive [ḍ] are both merged into one sound, namely [ḍ]."
I think that Adeni Arabic uses [ð̣] instead of [ḍ]. Can anyone verify this? I remember being surprised at this fact when I lived in Yemen because Adenis don't use the unemphatic fricatives at all. But in the emphatic form I think they do.
There is a book on Adeni Arabic that I used to own that would be able to clear this question up. Does anybody have it? I think it was called "Adeni Arabic". Solumanculver 17:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
In Adeni Arabic [ḍ] is always used. However, in some quarters of the city and in the speech of some speakers who have affiliation to the hinterland, [ð̣] is used. Generally speaking, the [ð̣]~ [ḍ] can be seen as a sociolinguistic alternation: in young people and female speech [ḍ] is more common.
The sentence "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf], pronouncing them, respectively [qain] and [ġāf]" is unclear, because the first half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces the letters <ġ> and in the same (unspecified) way – a not too surprising phenomenon even if uncommon in Arabic – and the second half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q – such criss-crossing being an extremely uncommon phenomenon. A third possible interpretation (assuming inaccurate wording), would be that Yafi'i speakers have [ġ] for Classical q in *some* words (perhaps most everyday words) and [q] for Classical ġ in some *other* words (perhaps by hypercorrection in words more related to the religious, intellectual, commercial or technical domains). In this case, Yafi'i could be expected not to be uniform, but to vary in this respect according to the background and the attitude of speakers. I wonder what the real situation is.
--
Zxly (
talk) 13:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I wrote that section on Yafi'i, sorry it's so unclear. It's like your possibility two, Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q. It is a systematic feature that occurs uniformly in all speech, not just in specialized words. It's not a hypercorrection, which is a very different phenomenon that occurs, for instance, in the sudan.
In the Sudan people are generally unable to pronounce the classical Qaaf, so in certain formal words they approximate it with a ghain, a form of hypercorrection. In Yafi' the sounds Qaaf and Ghain are systematically switched in everyday words, and even when speaking standard arabic Yafi'i speakers have a tendency to make that switch.
You're right, the phrase "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf]" does seem to say that they pronounce them the same, that is not correct and should be changed.
As for the dialects of LaHj and Abyaan, I'm not sure if they share this feature with Yafi'i... But I'm certain that the situation in Yafi' with respect to these consonants is very different that the situation in the sudan and kuwait.
I'll try to clean that section up 71.229.63.50 ( talk) 03:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
When I say I'm looking for a source that says Yemeni Arabic is spoken in "Somaliland", I don't mean a map that shows Yemeni Arabic being spoken in northwestern Somalia. I mean a source that actually uses the word "Somaliland" to refer to the area in question. This so-called country has no international recognition at all, and including it in the list of countries where Yemeni Arabic is spoken puts undue weight on the minority POV that such a country exists. If all the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - even if most of the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - say the language is spoken in Yemen and Somalia, with no mention of "Somaliland", then that's what the article should reflect. Anything else is fringe-theory POV-pushing. + An gr 05:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I've asked the NPOV noticeboard for more comments. + An gr 05:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) But if you actually look at the map, it is crystal clear that it is not a map of "Omani Arabs", but of Yemeni Arabs. There's no real question about what the map refers to despite what the label on the legend says. That's what I mean by carefully evaluating your sources. You cannot just blindly use a source. And in this part of the world, ethnicity and linguistics more often than not overlap. But until the issue in mediation is resolved, then the status quo should remain in place. -- Taivo ( talk) 03:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
It's important to mention when Yemeni Arabic appeared. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII ( talk) 22:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Somalis speak their own langauge and this source was used to cite that Yemeni Arabic is being spoken in Somalia [1] but there is no mentioning whatsoever that Yemeni Arabic is used in Somalia and Djibouti! Yemeni Arabic is made of several dialects and non of them are used in Somalia. The source provided fails to prove that. It clearly states that Somali language borrowed a lot of words from Arabic in general not Yemen. One sentence mentions that Yemeni Arabic is being used as a second language in northern Somalia especially by traders. Is that enough to include Somalia and Djibouti in the article? It's being used in Southern Saudi Arabia because it's a native dialect of the people where the case in Somalia is different. -- يوسف حسين ( talk) 09:45, 12 February 2014 (UTC)