This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
The War of the Pacific is in Wikipedia a controversial theme and a wide feedback from the community can improve the quality of the article. -- Keysanger ( talk) 08:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Just because I haven't mentioned it, don't think its okay. There are massive SYN OR problems because people have been citing claims out of primary instead of secondary sources. Your citation styles are constantly changing, making verification near impossible. You need to establish some kind of quote repository not on the main page. You need to re-write the narrative out of the best-available scholarly monographs... preferably the English Language ones. If you notice a certain frustration in my typing, its because your references are horrifyingly bad.
Spellcheck the entire thing.
These have been used to backdoor inappropriate sources. Delete all. -- Keysanger ( talk) 14:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Extended content
|
---|
The United States and the Bolivian Seacoast Online book by Bolivian historian and diplomat Jorge Gumucio Granier
Clear brief account of causes and consequences of the War of the Pacific, 1879-1883.
(Spanish) La Guerra del Pacifico, Los Heroes Olvidados Chilean site
History of Chemical Engineering: Nitrogen, for a brief description nitrates and its strategic importance
(Spanish) Sin mar... hace 127 anos ("Without Sea... for 127 years"); page about the war and its impact on Bolivian society.
Article: Bolivia Reaches for a Slice of the Coast That Got Away - NY Times 9/24/06
Sociedad de Estudios Historicos Coronel Arnaldo Panizo Peruvian site
|
Referencing style is inconsistent. Bibliography is not alphabetised. Bibliography is not separated into primary and secondary works.
Extended content
|
---|
Gonzalo Bulnes(1851-1936), "Chile and Peru : the causes of the war of 1879", Publisher Imprenta Universitaria, Santiago de Chile, in English Language (Download here)
Diego Barros Arana Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), Publisher: "librería central de servat i c", Esquina de Huerfanos i Ahumada, Santiago, Chile, 1881 , 2 Vols. (Download Vol.1 and Vol.II) in Spanish Language
Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile" in Spanish Language
Roberto Querajazu Calvo, "Aclaraciones historicas sobre la guerra del Pacifico", here in Spanish language. (A Bolivian historian)
William Jefferson Dennis, "Documentary history of the Tacna-Arica dispute", published by the University, Iowa City, 1927. It contains many important documents (translated) in English language. (Download here)
"Boletin de la Guerra del Pacifico", edited during the war by the Chilean government, included documents in Spanish language: Laws, informs, editorial of newspapers, maps, etc. (See here)
|
The referencing section is inconsistent, full of dreck, OR, PRIMARY. This leads me to the necessary conclusion that the article contains OR and SYN.
Seriously consider changing the conversational and informal style of citations.
Sources in English should have their quotes included in the body of the text, or removed. Consider making Talk:WotP/citationquotes for future verification efforts.
Separate your notes and your references.
Extended content
|
---|
^ 19,000 in San Juan, 4,000 in Lima, 1,000 in El Callao (Pierola letter to Julio Tenaud) 4,000 in Arequipa, Col. Jose de la Torre[1]
^ a b c d e f See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", tables 22 and 23 in pages 348-349. The figures consider neither Chilean POWs (from "Rimac" and "Esmeralda" survivors) nor deserteuers ^See also ETERNAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THE WAR OF THE PACIFIC, page 26,: This new law directly violated the Treaty of Sucre and outraged Chilean and foreign investors and the ANRC refused to pay the tax (Gumucio Granier, 1986: 46) deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 16:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
^ a b Because the capital of Bolivia, La Paz, lacked a telegraph connexion abroad the there are different data for declaration of war depending of the place (i.e. the used means of transportation carriage, ship, telegraph abroad) where the new was received. There are two documents about and William F. Sater in "Andean Tragedy", page 28 states: "Documentary History of the Tacna-Arica dispute, University of Iowa studies in the social sciences, Vol. 8", by William Jefferson Dennis, here, page 69: On March 14 Bolivia advised representatives of foreign powers that a state of war existed with Chile. ... Godoi advised President Pinto that this move was to prevent Chile from securing armaments abroad ...
"Andean Tragedy", William F. Sater, page 39:Thus, Daza's declaration of war was a godsend ..., also page 42in March he suddenly declared war on Chile
"Latin America's Wars: The age of the caudillo, 1791-1899" By Robert L. Scheina, page 376: On March 18 Bolivia declared war and confiscated all Chilean property in Bolivia and under the terms of a secret treaty ..."
"Wars and Peace Treaties, 1816-1991", By Erik Goldstein, page 182: As result of this action Bolivia declared war on Chile (1.March)
"The history of Chile" By John Lawrence Rector, page 100:
onwar.com: Bolivia then declared war on Chile and called upon Peru for help. country-data.com: Bolivia, in alliance with Peru, declared war on Chile on March 1, ...' andrewclem.com: ... , but Bolivia declared war on Chile and made known its “secret” alliance with Peru in March, ... globalsecurity.com: Bolivia, in alliance with Peru, declared war on Chile on March 1,... Encarta: Bolivia declared war and was joined by Peru, a partner in a secret alliance.
"The geopolitics of security in the Americas: hemispheric denial from Monroe ..." by Martin Sicker here: and Bolivia declared war on 14 February 1879 ...
"A history of Chile" - Page 326, by Luis Galdames, Isaac Joslin Cox - History - 1941 - 565 pages: The government of Chile refused to accede to this. Meanwhile Peru mobilized its army rapidly, Bolivia declared war against Chile, and the press of those ... deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
"Chile and the War of the Pacific" - Page 9 by William F. Sater - History - 1986 - 343 pages Two weeks after Chile occupied the disputed territory, Daza declared war.
"The Bolivia-Chile-Peru dispute in the Atacama Desert" by Ronald Bruce St. John, Clive H. Schofield here: "Once Bolivia declared war on March 14 1879 ...". deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 8 for Peruvian, page 12 for Bolivian and page 13 for Chilean data ^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 38: ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 40: ^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 16,: ^ See "University of Iowa studies in the social sciences", Volumen 8, page 54 ^ See full english version of the treaty in Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile and Peru: the causes of the war of 1879, Imprenta Universitaria. Santiago de Chile. ^ See History of the Latin-American nations By William Spence Robertson: [2]
New York Times: "The defensive treaty of 1873 between Peru and Bolivia" (First column).[3]
A history of Peru By Clements Robert Markham: "The Chileans used this purely defensive treaty, by which arbitration is provided for before there can be a casus foederis, as a pretext for war."[4] CHILE, PERU AND THE TREATY OF 1929: THE FINAL SETTLEMENT by Ronald Bruce St John: "Peru was honour bound under the terms of an 1873 treaty of defensive alliance to join the conflict on the side of Bolivia."[5]
^ See Donald E. Worcester and Wendell G. Schaeffer, "The Growth and Culture of Latin America", New York, Oxford University Press, 1956, 963 pages. Page 706,: In 1873, fearing the consecuences of taking action against Chile, Peru and Bolivia signed a defensive-offensive alliance
Alfred Barnaby Thomas, Profesor of History, University of Alabama,"Latin America, A History", The Macmillian Company, New York, 1956, 800 pages, page 450: This rivaliry [of Chile-Peru], straining the relations of the two countries, led Pardo to sign and offensive and defensive alliance with Bolivia in 1873, the latter being also disturbed by Chiles aggresiveness
Charles de Varigny, "La Guerra del Pacifico", page 18, here: …Chile vacilaría aún más si Bolivia, firmando un tratado de alianza ofensiva y defensiva con el Perú, podía poner sobre las armas los efectivos militares y las fuerzas navales de esta nación. Un tratado de esta naturaleza fué precisamente la condición que puso Boliyia para aceptar la aventura que el Perú le proponía. Se iniciaron negociaciones y quedó firmado el Tratado, que se convino en mantener secreto, con el fin de proporcionar al Perú la ocasión de ofrecer su mediación, no revelándolo sino en caso de que Chile rechazase esta mediación y declarase la guerra.
Gonzalo Bulnes, "Chile and Peru, The causes of the War of 1879" page 57 and 58: The Treaty menaces Chile … Never was Chile in greater peril, nor has a more favourable moment been elected for reducing her to the mere leavings that interested none of the conspirators. The advantage to each of them was clear enough. Bolivia would expand three degrees on the coast; Argentina would take possession of all our eastern terrisories to whatever point she liked; Peru would make Bolivia pay her with the salitre region. The synthesis of the Secret Treaty was this: opportunity: the disarmed condition of Chile; the pretext to produce conflict: Bolivia: the profit of the business: Patagonia and the salitre.
Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico", parte 1, capitulo III, page 31: Sea de ello lo que se quiera, el hecho es que el 6 de febrero de 1873 se firmaba en Lima un tratado secreto de alianza ofensiva i defensiva, por el cual ambas partes contratantes se comprometian a marchar unidas contra cualquier enemigo esterior que amenazase su independencia, su soberanía, o su integridad territorial.
Chilean Magazin "Que Pasa" here: A comienzos de 1870, Perú pasaba por un mal período económico, ya que el guano -fertilizante natural del cual procedían las principales ganancias fiscales- estaba agotado, mientras el salitre, producto que lo reemplazaba, estaba en manos de particulares. La única solución era eliminar a nuestro país como competidor en la extracción del salitre, para traspasar la propiedad de las salitreras al Estado y poseer el monopolio. Fue a raíz de esto que Perú y Bolivia firmaron un tratado secreto ofensivo y defensivo contra Chile, donde ambas naciones se apoyarían en caso de guerra.
"The New York Times" - Current History (1922) here page 450 : Notwithstanding the fact that in 1873 Peru had induced Bolivia to sign a pact of alliance tacitly directed against Chile, the Peruvian government offered its mediation in the Bolivian-Chilean conflict, the origin of which was nothing more than Peru’s monopolistic nitrate policy, which had instigated Bolivia to disposes Chilean industries. The mediation of Peru was accompanied by three suspicious circumstances: (1) The denial on the part of the mediating minister of the existence of the secret treaty of which Chile had lately become aware; (2) Previous Peruvian demands compatible only with the pretensions of Bolivia; (3) Hurried war preparations of Peru, the Peruvian government meanwhile showing a desire to gain time. These circumstances, with the fact that Bolivia did not manifest the slightest desire to facilitate an amicable adjustment, indicated to Chile that Peru was not working ‘bona fide’, but only with the intentin of strengthening the alliance.
"By Reason or Force: Chile and the Balancing of Power in South America, 1830-1905" by Robert N. Burr, page 130: But after extended discussionswhich served to delay Argentinas adherence to the anti-Chilean treaty, Buenos Aires accepted the exclusion of Brasil. There was however still another matter to be settled before Argentina was willing to join the alliance- the question of the boundary dispute with the altiplano.
"Latin America's Wars: The age of the caudillo, 1791-1899" by Robert L. Scheina, here, page 375: Bolivia nad Peru concluded a secret defensive treaty which provided that if either Bolivia or Peru were attacked by a foreign nation (obviously, it was directed against Chile), the other nation would go to the aid of the co-signer (:: Robert L. Scheina calls the treaty obviously, it was directed against Chile and use the adjective "defensive" as a part of the name of the treaty: "a secret defensive treaty".)
^ See "Manifest of the Chilean government to the representatives of friendly powers with reference to the declaration of war against Peru". Alejandro Fierro, Chilean Ministry of Foreign affairs, Santiago April 12, 1879 here, page 170:
^ See Hugo A. Maureira, "The War of the Pacific (1879-1884) and the Role of Racial Ideas in the Construction of Chilean Identity", here
^ See Private note of Riva-Agüero to Novoa, November 20 1872. Godoy papers. Cited in Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile Peru, the causes of the War 1879, page 58 and 59:
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2282, "El comienzo de la inferioridad naval peruana y la falta de iniciativa para una guerra preventiva":
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2286, "El Peru en 1874 y 1878 evita la alianza con Argentina":
^ See page 37 and ff
^ [6] Retrospectiva del enclaustramiento maritimo. Una vision critica sobre como se inicio el conflicto. Jorge Gumucio. La Paz, Bolivia, page 30:
^ [7] Relaciones Chile-Bolivia-Peru: La Guerra del Pacifico. June 2004. Patricio Valdivieso. Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile, page 8:
^ [8] Los empresarios, la politica y la Guerra del Pacifico. Luis Ortega. Santiago de Chile. 1984. (Page 18. File Antony Gibbs & Sons AGA. Valparaiso to Londres. Private N 25. March 6, 1878)
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 40:
^ a b See Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico", Vol. I, page 59.
^ See Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile and Peru, the Causes of the War of 1879 page 42
^ The Peruvian Historian stated See also Jorge Basadre, here (retrieved on 9 Juli 2009):
^ See Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico, 1879-1880", pages 68-70: Los chilenos quedaron así dueños de todo el desierto de Atacama hasta la frontera del Perú.
^ Jorge Basadre, Historia de la Republica del Peru, vol. VI, p. 40.
^ a b c d La Guerra del Pacífico. Francisco A. Machuca. Valparaíso "Mientras el señor Lavalle gozaba de relativa tregua, y estudiaba las causas de la poca prisa del Gobierno chileno para continuar las negociaciones, éste, en constante comunicación con nuestro Ministro Godoy, quedaba impuesto el 18 de Marzo, por comunicación del día anterior, 17, de la existencia del pacto secreto, y de una nota clara y terminante de nuestro Ministro al Gobierno de Lima...Por fin, el 31 de Marzo, el señor Lavalle se apersonó al señor Ministro de Relaciones y le dió conocimiento del tratado secreto, que acababa de recibir de Lima, en circunstancia que hacía días, el general Prado le había confesado su existencia a nuestro Ministro Godoy, en una conferencia tenida en Chorrillos."
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", in page 36: Unfortunately, Peru insisted that Chile withdraw from the recently seized Bolivian litoral as a precondition for starting discussion with La Paz, and in page 37: By late March, most of Santiago believed that Peru had thrown its suport to Bolivia and that it would declare warr on Chile as soon as it had readied its armed forces
^ Bulnes, Gonzalo. Chile and Peru : the causes of the war of 1879. pp. 147.
^ [9] Bulnes Gonzalo, Guerra del Pacífico, Tomo 1: De Antofagasta a Tarapacá. Page 148
^ Peruvian Congress March, 24 1879
^ See Jorge Besadre, "Historia de la Republica, La guerra con Chile", or here (retrieved on 09.September 2009):
La versión chilena fue que Bolivia quiso impedir que Chile se armara. En realidad, Daza buscó la forma de malograr la misión Lavalle. Una vez más la legación peruana en La Paz había fallado porque, según el tratado secreto, un acto de esta especie debía haberse hecho previo acuerdo de las partes. Al no estar declarada la guerra entre Chile y Bolivia, Chile no podía pedir al Perú que se mantuviera neutral. Porque la había declarado Bolivia, la exigencia chilena de neutralidad peruana era inevitable. La declaración boliviana de guerra era (dice el historiador chileno Bulnes) un palo atravesado en las ruedas del carro empujado por Lavalle.
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 5, page 65:
As the earlier discussion of the geography of the Atacama region illustrates, control of the sea lanes along the coastwould be absolutely vital to the success of a land campaign there
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 102 and ff: … to anyone willing to sail under Bolivia's colors …
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=BsxISMTwsSUC&pg=PA77&dq=Carabineros+de+Yungay+Hu%C3%A1scar&lr= Page 56
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=0osTAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 37-42
^ Pinochet Ugarte, Augusto (1972). Guerra del Pacífico, 1879. California: Instituto Geográfico Militar. p. 44. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=7sd-AAAAMAAJ&q=Miguel+grau+seis+meses&dq=Miguel+grau+seis+meses Page 71
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=UKPUAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Pages 89 and 129-131
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=43EKAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Pages 221-222
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=BsxISMTwsSUC&pg=PA77&dq=Carabineros+de+Yungay+Hu%C3%A1scar&lr= Page 77-78
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=43EKAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 244-246
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=KYQTAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 130
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=RmVjAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 49
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=SPNjAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 54
^ Luna Vegas, Emilio (1978). Cáceres, genio militar. Peru: Librería Editorial Minerva-Miraflores. p. 19. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Valdés Vergara, Francisco (1908). Historia de Shile para la enseñanza primaria. California: Sociedad "Imprenta y litografía Universo". p. 319. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Elías Murguía, Julio J. (1980). Marinos peruanos en Arica. Peru: Instituto de Estudios Histórico-Maritimos del Perú. p. 38. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Basadre, Jorge (1961). Historia de la República del Perú. Michigan: Ediciones "Historia". p. 2538. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Calero y Moreira, Jacinto (1794). Mercurio peruano. Peru: Biblioteca Nacional del Perú. pp. 44-46. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 120:
^ ee Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 120:
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 121:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 208:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Chile and the war of the Pacific", page 180:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 152: Lynch's force consisted f the 1° Line Regiment and the Regiments "Talca" and "Colchagua", a battery of mountain howitzers, and a small cavalry squadron for a total of twenty-two hundred man
^ Diego Barros Arana, Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), vol. 2, page 98: [El gobierno chileno] Creía entonces que todavía era posible demostrar prácticamente al enemigo la imposibilidad en que se hallaba para defender el territorio peruano no ya contra un ejército numeroso sino contra pequeñas divisiones. Este fué el objeto de una espedicion que las quejas, los insultos i las lamentaciones de los documentos oficiales del Perú, i de los escritos de su prensa, han hecho famosa.
^ See also Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2475,
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 260 and ff
^ Diego Barros Arana quotes Johann Caspar Bluntschli: Bluntschili (Derecho internacional codificado) dice espresamente lo que sigue: Árt. 544. Cuando el enemigo ha tomado posesión efectiva de una parte del territorio, el gobierno del otro estado deja de ejercer alli el poder. Los habitantes del territorio ocupado están eximidos de todos los deberes i obligaciones respecto del gobierno anterior, i están obligados a obedecer a los jefes del ejército de ocupación.
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=DGexys3TxhQC&pg=PA104&dq=Italia+Guerra+del+Pacifico Page 97
^ See American Mediation: Peace Talks on the Lackawanna
^ B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 130:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 217 and ff.
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", table on page 222
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 222:
^ B.W.Farcau in "The Ten Cents War", page 138 specifies 3,100 men in Arequipa, 2,000 men in Arica and 9,000 men in Tacna, but this figures contradict the total numbers given (below) by W.F.Sater in page 229
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 138:
^ See also W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 227:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 229
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 256
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Tens Cents War", page 147
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 149-150:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Tens Cents War", page 157:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 259
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andan Tragedy", page 276 and ff.
^ B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 157 gives 26,000 men but W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 274, gives 25,000 to 32,000 men
^ a b See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 164:
^ Villalobos, Sergio. [[10] Chile y Perú: la historia que nos une y nos separa, 1535-1883]. p. 185. Retrieved 28. September 2009.
^ See Charles de Varigny, "La Guerra del Pacifico", Imprenta Cervantes, Moneda 1170, Santiago de Chile, 1922, page XVIII: rendía incondicionalmente. La soldadesca [peruana] desmoralizada y no desarmada saqueaba la ciudad en la noche del 16, el incendio la alumbraba siniestramente y el espanto reinaba en toda ella.
^ See Jorge Besadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile", Chapter 'Los horrores de Chorrillos':
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 296.
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 302:
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 11, page 173
^ see W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 309 and ff
^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 312:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 315 and ff
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 304-306:
^ a b See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 329 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 306 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 329-330 ^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 181-182 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 317-338 ^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War" pages 183-187 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Chile and the War Of The Pacific", page 220: ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 90:
^ Diego Barros Arana, Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), Volumen 1, page 115
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile", Chapter 'La vida en Lima durante la ocupacion': la Biblioteca Nacional despojada de muchos de sus libros;
^ Dan Collyns. "Chile returns looted Peru books". BBC. Retrieved 2007-11-10.
^ http://www.history.appstate.edu/ConferencePapers/dorotheamartinpaper.pdf
^ See "The Ambiguous Relationship: Theodore Roosevelt and Alfred Thayer Mahan" by Richard W. Turk; Greenwood Press, 1987. 183 pgs. page 10
^ See Larrie D. Ferreiro 'Mahan and the "English Club” of Lima, Peru: The Genesis of The Influence of Sea Power upon History', The Journal of Military History - Volume 72, Number 3, July 2008, pp. 901-906
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page2: it has largela been ignored outside the region as neither the USA nor any major European power had a stake in the game
^ El dia del mar se recordara con mas que un tradicional desfile civico
^ Crow, The Epic of Latin America, p. 180
^ Foster, John B. & Clark, Brett. (2003). "Ecological Imperialism: The Curse of Capitalism" (accessed 2 September 2005). The Socialist Register 2004, p190-192. Also available in print from Merlin Press.
^ Dominguez, Jorge et al. 2003 Boundary Disputes in Latin America. United States Washington, D.C.: Institute of Peace.
^ See Chile: physical features, natural resources, means of communication by George J. Mills, William Henry Koebel (page 39)
^ http://www.monitor.upeace.org/archive.cfm?id_article=301#_ftn3
^ See Mariano Felipe Paz Soldan, "Relacion Historica de la Guerra de Chile contra el Per y Bolivia" page 102,:
^ See also speech of Profesor Belisario Llosa Rivera, cited by Jorge Basadre Grohmann "Historia de la Republica" or here: Pero, al mismo tiempo, expresó su certeza de que, en diez años de unión, orden, economía, y laboriosidad, el Perú sería un gran país, capaz de vengarse.
^ See Five Sad Reasons to Worry about Peru (retrieved 24. September 2009):
^ See Hardi Schindler, "Konflikte in Südamerika", page 56, here: Die Befürchtungen vor einer chilenisch-bolivianischen Einigung auf seine Kosten und der latenten Revanchismus des peruanischen Militärs wegen der Gebietsverluste an Chile und Brasilien verstärken den Anspruch des Landes, an allen eventuellen Verhandlungen gemäß dem Vertrag von 1929 beteiligt zu werden (Translation: The fear an Chilean-Bolivian agreement at the expense of Peru and the latent revanchism of the Peruvian military because of the lost of territories to Chile and Brasil bolster up the demand of the country [Peru] to be part of any negotiation according the treaty of 1929)
^ See Speech of former President of Argentina in Latin America at a Crossroads (retrieved 24 September 2009):
|
Hi Fifelfoo,
I edited and normalized almost every reference. I think most of flaws were trivial, like incomplete citation, not in bibliography, spacing, Unacceptable citation format (!) and such kind of bagatelle. I replaced some dubious source with references to Farcau or Sater.
But some problems are still there:
I think the references are now much better. The content remains unchanged. Please take a look in-depth this time and tell me your valuable opinion. -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Text and maps only shows one POV
Arafael ( talk) 15:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You have to explain why the issues are POV. You have placed the template as a bot would have done it and that doesn't work. This is a textbook example of how to abuse of the POV-tag to harass other editors. -- Keysanger ( talk) 15:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a lot of articles written by one editor, that doesn't matter. The criteria for POV are others. The same is valid for articles based on books. One is good, two are better, etc. Hera are a lot of books. Important is that the article remains neutral. Please be precise:
You have to explain, give your reasons and build consensus. You don't begin the process and you put already the POV-tag!
If you like you can see the process in archive 7. Do not insist before you explain consistently your claims. -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it all what you have to say? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Do not write events during the war in sections dedicated to events before the war and don't use primary sources as reference for sentences. -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I deleted a second time your contributuion.
The Bolivian and the Chilean tax increses are well documented facts, but the direct arrangement of facts separated by a broken boundary treaty and 3 years of war (1878-1880) is delicated because we have to expose all the facts occured during this time period. The direct deduction of the comparison is "Chilean are hypocrites because they took what they denied to Bolivians" and that would be POV because as Farcau stated Bruce W. Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 41,:
The issue was not the 10 cents but that "a conscious precedent was being set". Best regards, -- Keysanger ( talk) 11:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I AGREE your contribution, but don't use Markham as source because it is a primary source (and pro-Peruvian biased). Farcau and Sater support your statament, so you won't have problems to find references. If you can't finf them I will do it tomorrow. Also you have to respect the due weight: the batle of chorrillos is described only with 57 words, therefore the preparation should be shorter. -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you support the statement: "Sater is based in Chileans sources so he is pro-Chilean" ?. I respect you but I am not interested in your personal opinions. Anyway, it is primary source. Please change it. -- Keysanger ( talk) 22:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
So if Tommaso Caivano(italian) (Storia della guerra d' America fra il Chili, il Peru e la Bolivia) or Clements Markhan(british) ("The War between Peru and Chile"), or Jacinto Lopez(venezuelan) (Historia de la guerra del guano y el salitre) and even José Martí(cuban) (Cuaderno N° 13 Tomo 21 de Obras Completas) refute the chilean version all them are "properuvians" and must be ignore and delete, why "Andean Tragedy: Fighting the War of the Pacific, 1879-1884" (by Sater) must be considerate the real true history of the war and be the main source of these article? For example (only one) acording to this author peruvian defenses(in Lima) were "supported by a formidable collection of coastal guns" most of heavy artillery was in the port of Callao and didn't take part of the battles of San Juan and Miraflores, self made peruvians Grieve and White field cannons can be considerate formidable artillery as the prusian 80 Krupps of the chilean artillery?, if Jose Francisco Vergara (chilean minister of war) said that peruvians had "insignifican civic cavalry parties and very insufficient and bad artillery troops" he is properuvian too? and what about Mason (sailor of the USN) "the artillery(peruvian), with enought material, some antiquated, another part made by empirical procediments by private manufacters of Lima and without fire exercises, wasn't able to compite with the experienced and well armed chilean artillery " following your point of view anyone who contradice the version that you like is parcialize, Arafael had quoted some of the non neutral parts of the article, to get a real neutrality both versions must be show, the reader will decide, that is what chileans and peruvians wikipedists continue doing in the spanish page "La guerra del pacífico". Rasdar2 ( talk) 15:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
And what about Sater as an parcialize source? Arafael just proved it. Rasdar2 ( talk) 16:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
How is Sir Markham a primary source? He is an Englishman who took the time to write a book on the war based on the accounts of other people. Therefore, by definition, Markham is not a primary source. He is more of a secondary source. However, it is obvious that Markham tends to be pro-Peru. This is the same case with Sater, another secondary source, who tends to be pro-Chile. Who are you to decide what is a right and what is a wrong source, Mr. Keysanger? Shouldn't Wikipedia mix these two sources in order to arrive to a neutral conclusion?--Voice of Reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 17:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Our concepts of primary sources are different, if Sater is considerate and imparcial and secondary source, i don't agree with you. Rasdar2 ( talk) 19:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it's obvious by now that User:Keysanger has a severe ownership problem with this article. Just take a look at the article's history and there will be an ocean of "Keysanger" edits throughout it. I think that this should be reported to a Wikipedia administrator as it goes against the spirit of the project.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 14:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Fifelfoo hasn't been the only person Keysanger has contacted for an RfC for the War of the Pacific. He has contacted User:Anarchangel ( [4]), User:David Underdown ( [5]), User:Necessary Evil ( [6]), among others. Yet, my question is (based on what happened with Fifelfoo), why does Keysanger want so many RfCs if he is not going to listen to what they tell him? I suppose that it's not wrong for RfCs to be asked for articles, but why ask them if you're not going to do what they recommend? Moreover, why then claim that you've done what they recommended, when in fact such a thing has not been done?-- MarshalN20 | Talk 13:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I see some of the editors don't know Sater. I already explained that Sater is one of the best if not the best historian about the issue.
His book "Andean Tragedy" has 442 pages, included approx. 60 pages with references, 15 pages bibliography and 6 pages of index.
About the quality, read please:
Do you know a better source for "The War of the Pacific"? -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Arafael:
Please cite the whole sentence:
What is "chilenista"?
That make sense only to say "a person who studies Chile". Therefore he says "siempre voy a ser extranjero, "chilenista" y no chileno" that is "I will always remain allien, chilenista but not Chilean".
Sater is very critical with the Chilean society. Please read more about him.
what is natinalistic in "...Taking sides with Chilean Historian Francisco Encina, the author treats General Baquedano with equal ferocity...."?
Baquedano is critized because of his military strategy. What is the problem there.
Fifelfo:
I agree with you. Tell me which are the sentences in the text that are not NPOV and the sources they make different evaluations. I am openminded to accept changes in the text. Let's go on!
Which sentence is not NPOV?
-- Keysanger ( talk) 18:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Because Sir Markham is a primary source, how many times have I to repeat it! -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I repeat: What do you want to change? Which sentence is not neutral? which are your better sources? why is that sentence no neutral? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Keysanger, do you need a break? If you keep repeating yourself, then you are probably not explaining yourself correctly.//Voice of Reason ( 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 18:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
Hitler is also in Wikipedia Don't read the article about him. Which is your issue? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I asked your advice for continue the work. Please give me information about:
What do you mean with :
As I understand, we don't need to add every citation to the bibliography. If the author is (correctly) cited once, then we don't need to add it to the B. Am I right? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that talking to Mr. Keysanger is like talking to a spinning wheel. You respond to it, and it comes back around to the same question. You give it help, and it comes back around to the same question. And when it tries to answer a question or make a statement, it goes around in circles without really saying anything. Mr. Keysanger, have you ever given thought to listening to the suggestions of others or to reply in a straight-forward way (perhaps laconic) instead of going around in circles?//Voice of Reason ( 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 18:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
I've listed some sentences and paragraphs before. Arafael ( talk) 18:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
What about the map? -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:18, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I am looking to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MPazSoldan.1888-2xChile.djvu as source map.
Near 26°S there is a horizontal line until 66,5°W and there the border go upwards until approx 21,5°S and then straigh to east. ("limite actual")
Now we look http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wotp.en.svg the article's map.
Give 5 minutes and I will load a new map. -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Now is the new map there. Do you agree? -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Have you seen the dates? they are all wrong! "On 28 November 1880 declared the formal blockade of Arica" Arica falls on june seven (1880); "On 24 February 1881 approximately 11,000 men in nineteen ships" Lima falls on 17 january(1881)! The Lackawanna Conference was after the campaing of Tacna an Arica, Sater said that? (¿?) Rasdar2 ( talk) 20:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
You havn't mentioned any reason for. The colors of the map aren't. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
please dont be fatuous, all the dates are wrong, where did you get that information? ok lets star a point by point debate, first the ilegal or legal bolivian tax, i'm back in 4 hours. Rasdar2 ( talk) 21:18, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I wrote my references already:
Please write yours. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Tell me what are your reliable sources -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I try to dialog with Keysanger, we started ok; but he revert a new text, in order to reach NPOV. Arafael ( talk) 21:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
You copied the begining of 15 sentences. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
if your concept of "reliable sources" exclude all peruvians and bolivians historians there is a problem, any single chilean historian know that these 15 points are controversial, show all your cards and let us do the same, we are not talking about personal opinions Rasdar2 ( talk) 21:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I am seriously getting tired of this. Please look at the first two letters of the website? Do you see "en"? I do. Fifelfoo ( talk) 00:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
About the quote of chilean newspaper "La Patria", source: "Mariano Felipe Paz Soldan "Historical Narration of the war of Chile against Peru and Bolivia" Vol. 2 page 247" acording to Sater peruvian and bolivian politics "forced" Chile to continue the war, but it public opinion said another thing, El Mercurio de Valparaíso december 1 (1880): "To get a peace with Peru, is indispensable reduce it to complety impotence, for a period of 50 years at less" La Patria June 30 (1880) "revenche, revenche claim today the child and the old man, the warrior and the priest... In Chile there isnt any other sentiment, other expresion, other wish than these Revenche! the chilean cannon must take down the walls of Ancón, the bullets from Chile must get in ruins the mansions of the impudic Chorrillos" Who is the victim and who is the agresor is the eternal question in any war of history, maybe peruvian press said something similar in 1880 but, however, the article must be neutral. The real, undoubtly, and neutral cause of the continue of war was the fail of the Lackawanna Conference. (but keysanger made a mistake with the dates and the chronological order putting it in 1879). Dont said now that chilean press are not a valid source for the public opinion in Chile after the campaign of Lima. The other source is from John Lawrence Rector professor of history at Western Oregon University, "Aunque no entra en detalles ...entrega toda la información histórica básica...y lo hace en una perspectiva objetiva y ponderada. Un libro sin duda recomendable." Cristian Gazmuri profesor de la Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile -> "although he doesnt enter in details...give all the historic basic informacion... and make it by an objective and ponderate perspective. A, without doubt, recomendable book. Cristian Gazmuri. Rasdar2 ( talk) 02:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem regarding primary vs. secondary sourcing. I see two main roots to this problem. The first is Keysanger's policy to judge which source, whether primary or secondary, is acceptable or not. For example, Diego Barros Arana is a primary pro-Chilean source, and yet Keysanger freely uses him for at least 3 citations. He does not allow this for Clements Markham, Tomas Caivano, and other sources which could be beneficial for the article. I say "could" because primary sources are always difficult to use in any sort of article seeking to create a NPOV with reliable references. This leads to the second root of the problem, which is that some of you seem to not have read WP:PRIMARY. I quote part of it here (but still encourage you to read the page):
Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source.
I hope this helps clear up the problem.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 03:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
"...El territorio salitrero de Antofagasta y el territorio salitrero de Tarapacá fueron la causa real y directa de la guerra..."
Patricio Valdivieso. Relations of Chile, Bolivia, Perú: the War of the Pacific. Santiago: Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile. June 2004, Page 8.
Luis Ortega Martínez. Chile en route to capitalism: change, euphoria and depression 1850-1880. Santiago: Research Center Diego Barros Arana. Management of archives, libraries and museums of Chile (Centro de Investigaciones Diego Barros Arana. Direccion de archivos, bibliotecas y museos de Chile). 2005. Pag 437
Arafael ( talk) 14:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Valentín Abecia Baldivieso. International relations in the history of Bolivia, Volume 2. La Paz: National Academy of Sciences of Bolivia (Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia). 1986. Page 73.
Arafael ( talk) 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
The War of the Pacific is in Wikipedia a controversial theme and a wide feedback from the community can improve the quality of the article. -- Keysanger ( talk) 08:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Just because I haven't mentioned it, don't think its okay. There are massive SYN OR problems because people have been citing claims out of primary instead of secondary sources. Your citation styles are constantly changing, making verification near impossible. You need to establish some kind of quote repository not on the main page. You need to re-write the narrative out of the best-available scholarly monographs... preferably the English Language ones. If you notice a certain frustration in my typing, its because your references are horrifyingly bad.
Spellcheck the entire thing.
These have been used to backdoor inappropriate sources. Delete all. -- Keysanger ( talk) 14:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Extended content
|
---|
The United States and the Bolivian Seacoast Online book by Bolivian historian and diplomat Jorge Gumucio Granier
Clear brief account of causes and consequences of the War of the Pacific, 1879-1883.
(Spanish) La Guerra del Pacifico, Los Heroes Olvidados Chilean site
History of Chemical Engineering: Nitrogen, for a brief description nitrates and its strategic importance
(Spanish) Sin mar... hace 127 anos ("Without Sea... for 127 years"); page about the war and its impact on Bolivian society.
Article: Bolivia Reaches for a Slice of the Coast That Got Away - NY Times 9/24/06
Sociedad de Estudios Historicos Coronel Arnaldo Panizo Peruvian site
|
Referencing style is inconsistent. Bibliography is not alphabetised. Bibliography is not separated into primary and secondary works.
Extended content
|
---|
Gonzalo Bulnes(1851-1936), "Chile and Peru : the causes of the war of 1879", Publisher Imprenta Universitaria, Santiago de Chile, in English Language (Download here)
Diego Barros Arana Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), Publisher: "librería central de servat i c", Esquina de Huerfanos i Ahumada, Santiago, Chile, 1881 , 2 Vols. (Download Vol.1 and Vol.II) in Spanish Language
Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile" in Spanish Language
Roberto Querajazu Calvo, "Aclaraciones historicas sobre la guerra del Pacifico", here in Spanish language. (A Bolivian historian)
William Jefferson Dennis, "Documentary history of the Tacna-Arica dispute", published by the University, Iowa City, 1927. It contains many important documents (translated) in English language. (Download here)
"Boletin de la Guerra del Pacifico", edited during the war by the Chilean government, included documents in Spanish language: Laws, informs, editorial of newspapers, maps, etc. (See here)
|
The referencing section is inconsistent, full of dreck, OR, PRIMARY. This leads me to the necessary conclusion that the article contains OR and SYN.
Seriously consider changing the conversational and informal style of citations.
Sources in English should have their quotes included in the body of the text, or removed. Consider making Talk:WotP/citationquotes for future verification efforts.
Separate your notes and your references.
Extended content
|
---|
^ 19,000 in San Juan, 4,000 in Lima, 1,000 in El Callao (Pierola letter to Julio Tenaud) 4,000 in Arequipa, Col. Jose de la Torre[1]
^ a b c d e f See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", tables 22 and 23 in pages 348-349. The figures consider neither Chilean POWs (from "Rimac" and "Esmeralda" survivors) nor deserteuers ^See also ETERNAL RAMIFICATIONS OF THE WAR OF THE PACIFIC, page 26,: This new law directly violated the Treaty of Sucre and outraged Chilean and foreign investors and the ANRC refused to pay the tax (Gumucio Granier, 1986: 46) deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 16:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
^ a b Because the capital of Bolivia, La Paz, lacked a telegraph connexion abroad the there are different data for declaration of war depending of the place (i.e. the used means of transportation carriage, ship, telegraph abroad) where the new was received. There are two documents about and William F. Sater in "Andean Tragedy", page 28 states: "Documentary History of the Tacna-Arica dispute, University of Iowa studies in the social sciences, Vol. 8", by William Jefferson Dennis, here, page 69: On March 14 Bolivia advised representatives of foreign powers that a state of war existed with Chile. ... Godoi advised President Pinto that this move was to prevent Chile from securing armaments abroad ...
"Andean Tragedy", William F. Sater, page 39:Thus, Daza's declaration of war was a godsend ..., also page 42in March he suddenly declared war on Chile
"Latin America's Wars: The age of the caudillo, 1791-1899" By Robert L. Scheina, page 376: On March 18 Bolivia declared war and confiscated all Chilean property in Bolivia and under the terms of a secret treaty ..."
"Wars and Peace Treaties, 1816-1991", By Erik Goldstein, page 182: As result of this action Bolivia declared war on Chile (1.March)
"The history of Chile" By John Lawrence Rector, page 100:
onwar.com: Bolivia then declared war on Chile and called upon Peru for help. country-data.com: Bolivia, in alliance with Peru, declared war on Chile on March 1, ...' andrewclem.com: ... , but Bolivia declared war on Chile and made known its “secret” alliance with Peru in March, ... globalsecurity.com: Bolivia, in alliance with Peru, declared war on Chile on March 1,... Encarta: Bolivia declared war and was joined by Peru, a partner in a secret alliance.
"The geopolitics of security in the Americas: hemispheric denial from Monroe ..." by Martin Sicker here: and Bolivia declared war on 14 February 1879 ...
"A history of Chile" - Page 326, by Luis Galdames, Isaac Joslin Cox - History - 1941 - 565 pages: The government of Chile refused to accede to this. Meanwhile Peru mobilized its army rapidly, Bolivia declared war against Chile, and the press of those ... deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
"Chile and the War of the Pacific" - Page 9 by William F. Sater - History - 1986 - 343 pages Two weeks after Chile occupied the disputed territory, Daza declared war.
"The Bolivia-Chile-Peru dispute in the Atacama Desert" by Ronald Bruce St. John, Clive H. Schofield here: "Once Bolivia declared war on March 14 1879 ...". deleted -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 8 for Peruvian, page 12 for Bolivian and page 13 for Chilean data ^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 38: ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 40: ^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 16,: ^ See "University of Iowa studies in the social sciences", Volumen 8, page 54 ^ See full english version of the treaty in Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile and Peru: the causes of the war of 1879, Imprenta Universitaria. Santiago de Chile. ^ See History of the Latin-American nations By William Spence Robertson: [2]
New York Times: "The defensive treaty of 1873 between Peru and Bolivia" (First column).[3]
A history of Peru By Clements Robert Markham: "The Chileans used this purely defensive treaty, by which arbitration is provided for before there can be a casus foederis, as a pretext for war."[4] CHILE, PERU AND THE TREATY OF 1929: THE FINAL SETTLEMENT by Ronald Bruce St John: "Peru was honour bound under the terms of an 1873 treaty of defensive alliance to join the conflict on the side of Bolivia."[5]
^ See Donald E. Worcester and Wendell G. Schaeffer, "The Growth and Culture of Latin America", New York, Oxford University Press, 1956, 963 pages. Page 706,: In 1873, fearing the consecuences of taking action against Chile, Peru and Bolivia signed a defensive-offensive alliance
Alfred Barnaby Thomas, Profesor of History, University of Alabama,"Latin America, A History", The Macmillian Company, New York, 1956, 800 pages, page 450: This rivaliry [of Chile-Peru], straining the relations of the two countries, led Pardo to sign and offensive and defensive alliance with Bolivia in 1873, the latter being also disturbed by Chiles aggresiveness
Charles de Varigny, "La Guerra del Pacifico", page 18, here: …Chile vacilaría aún más si Bolivia, firmando un tratado de alianza ofensiva y defensiva con el Perú, podía poner sobre las armas los efectivos militares y las fuerzas navales de esta nación. Un tratado de esta naturaleza fué precisamente la condición que puso Boliyia para aceptar la aventura que el Perú le proponía. Se iniciaron negociaciones y quedó firmado el Tratado, que se convino en mantener secreto, con el fin de proporcionar al Perú la ocasión de ofrecer su mediación, no revelándolo sino en caso de que Chile rechazase esta mediación y declarase la guerra.
Gonzalo Bulnes, "Chile and Peru, The causes of the War of 1879" page 57 and 58: The Treaty menaces Chile … Never was Chile in greater peril, nor has a more favourable moment been elected for reducing her to the mere leavings that interested none of the conspirators. The advantage to each of them was clear enough. Bolivia would expand three degrees on the coast; Argentina would take possession of all our eastern terrisories to whatever point she liked; Peru would make Bolivia pay her with the salitre region. The synthesis of the Secret Treaty was this: opportunity: the disarmed condition of Chile; the pretext to produce conflict: Bolivia: the profit of the business: Patagonia and the salitre.
Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico", parte 1, capitulo III, page 31: Sea de ello lo que se quiera, el hecho es que el 6 de febrero de 1873 se firmaba en Lima un tratado secreto de alianza ofensiva i defensiva, por el cual ambas partes contratantes se comprometian a marchar unidas contra cualquier enemigo esterior que amenazase su independencia, su soberanía, o su integridad territorial.
Chilean Magazin "Que Pasa" here: A comienzos de 1870, Perú pasaba por un mal período económico, ya que el guano -fertilizante natural del cual procedían las principales ganancias fiscales- estaba agotado, mientras el salitre, producto que lo reemplazaba, estaba en manos de particulares. La única solución era eliminar a nuestro país como competidor en la extracción del salitre, para traspasar la propiedad de las salitreras al Estado y poseer el monopolio. Fue a raíz de esto que Perú y Bolivia firmaron un tratado secreto ofensivo y defensivo contra Chile, donde ambas naciones se apoyarían en caso de guerra.
"The New York Times" - Current History (1922) here page 450 : Notwithstanding the fact that in 1873 Peru had induced Bolivia to sign a pact of alliance tacitly directed against Chile, the Peruvian government offered its mediation in the Bolivian-Chilean conflict, the origin of which was nothing more than Peru’s monopolistic nitrate policy, which had instigated Bolivia to disposes Chilean industries. The mediation of Peru was accompanied by three suspicious circumstances: (1) The denial on the part of the mediating minister of the existence of the secret treaty of which Chile had lately become aware; (2) Previous Peruvian demands compatible only with the pretensions of Bolivia; (3) Hurried war preparations of Peru, the Peruvian government meanwhile showing a desire to gain time. These circumstances, with the fact that Bolivia did not manifest the slightest desire to facilitate an amicable adjustment, indicated to Chile that Peru was not working ‘bona fide’, but only with the intentin of strengthening the alliance.
"By Reason or Force: Chile and the Balancing of Power in South America, 1830-1905" by Robert N. Burr, page 130: But after extended discussionswhich served to delay Argentinas adherence to the anti-Chilean treaty, Buenos Aires accepted the exclusion of Brasil. There was however still another matter to be settled before Argentina was willing to join the alliance- the question of the boundary dispute with the altiplano.
"Latin America's Wars: The age of the caudillo, 1791-1899" by Robert L. Scheina, here, page 375: Bolivia nad Peru concluded a secret defensive treaty which provided that if either Bolivia or Peru were attacked by a foreign nation (obviously, it was directed against Chile), the other nation would go to the aid of the co-signer (:: Robert L. Scheina calls the treaty obviously, it was directed against Chile and use the adjective "defensive" as a part of the name of the treaty: "a secret defensive treaty".)
^ See "Manifest of the Chilean government to the representatives of friendly powers with reference to the declaration of war against Peru". Alejandro Fierro, Chilean Ministry of Foreign affairs, Santiago April 12, 1879 here, page 170:
^ See Hugo A. Maureira, "The War of the Pacific (1879-1884) and the Role of Racial Ideas in the Construction of Chilean Identity", here
^ See Private note of Riva-Agüero to Novoa, November 20 1872. Godoy papers. Cited in Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile Peru, the causes of the War 1879, page 58 and 59:
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2282, "El comienzo de la inferioridad naval peruana y la falta de iniciativa para una guerra preventiva":
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2286, "El Peru en 1874 y 1878 evita la alianza con Argentina":
^ See page 37 and ff
^ [6] Retrospectiva del enclaustramiento maritimo. Una vision critica sobre como se inicio el conflicto. Jorge Gumucio. La Paz, Bolivia, page 30:
^ [7] Relaciones Chile-Bolivia-Peru: La Guerra del Pacifico. June 2004. Patricio Valdivieso. Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile, page 8:
^ [8] Los empresarios, la politica y la Guerra del Pacifico. Luis Ortega. Santiago de Chile. 1984. (Page 18. File Antony Gibbs & Sons AGA. Valparaiso to Londres. Private N 25. March 6, 1878)
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 40:
^ a b See Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico", Vol. I, page 59.
^ See Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile and Peru, the Causes of the War of 1879 page 42
^ The Peruvian Historian stated See also Jorge Basadre, here (retrieved on 9 Juli 2009):
^ See Diego Barros Arana, "Historia de la Guerra del Pacifico, 1879-1880", pages 68-70: Los chilenos quedaron así dueños de todo el desierto de Atacama hasta la frontera del Perú.
^ Jorge Basadre, Historia de la Republica del Peru, vol. VI, p. 40.
^ a b c d La Guerra del Pacífico. Francisco A. Machuca. Valparaíso "Mientras el señor Lavalle gozaba de relativa tregua, y estudiaba las causas de la poca prisa del Gobierno chileno para continuar las negociaciones, éste, en constante comunicación con nuestro Ministro Godoy, quedaba impuesto el 18 de Marzo, por comunicación del día anterior, 17, de la existencia del pacto secreto, y de una nota clara y terminante de nuestro Ministro al Gobierno de Lima...Por fin, el 31 de Marzo, el señor Lavalle se apersonó al señor Ministro de Relaciones y le dió conocimiento del tratado secreto, que acababa de recibir de Lima, en circunstancia que hacía días, el general Prado le había confesado su existencia a nuestro Ministro Godoy, en una conferencia tenida en Chorrillos."
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", in page 36: Unfortunately, Peru insisted that Chile withdraw from the recently seized Bolivian litoral as a precondition for starting discussion with La Paz, and in page 37: By late March, most of Santiago believed that Peru had thrown its suport to Bolivia and that it would declare warr on Chile as soon as it had readied its armed forces
^ Bulnes, Gonzalo. Chile and Peru : the causes of the war of 1879. pp. 147.
^ [9] Bulnes Gonzalo, Guerra del Pacífico, Tomo 1: De Antofagasta a Tarapacá. Page 148
^ Peruvian Congress March, 24 1879
^ See Jorge Besadre, "Historia de la Republica, La guerra con Chile", or here (retrieved on 09.September 2009):
La versión chilena fue que Bolivia quiso impedir que Chile se armara. En realidad, Daza buscó la forma de malograr la misión Lavalle. Una vez más la legación peruana en La Paz había fallado porque, según el tratado secreto, un acto de esta especie debía haberse hecho previo acuerdo de las partes. Al no estar declarada la guerra entre Chile y Bolivia, Chile no podía pedir al Perú que se mantuviera neutral. Porque la había declarado Bolivia, la exigencia chilena de neutralidad peruana era inevitable. La declaración boliviana de guerra era (dice el historiador chileno Bulnes) un palo atravesado en las ruedas del carro empujado por Lavalle.
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 5, page 65:
As the earlier discussion of the geography of the Atacama region illustrates, control of the sea lanes along the coastwould be absolutely vital to the success of a land campaign there
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 102 and ff: … to anyone willing to sail under Bolivia's colors …
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=BsxISMTwsSUC&pg=PA77&dq=Carabineros+de+Yungay+Hu%C3%A1scar&lr= Page 56
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=0osTAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 37-42
^ Pinochet Ugarte, Augusto (1972). Guerra del Pacífico, 1879. California: Instituto Geográfico Militar. p. 44. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=7sd-AAAAMAAJ&q=Miguel+grau+seis+meses&dq=Miguel+grau+seis+meses Page 71
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=UKPUAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Pages 89 and 129-131
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=43EKAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Pages 221-222
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=BsxISMTwsSUC&pg=PA77&dq=Carabineros+de+Yungay+Hu%C3%A1scar&lr= Page 77-78
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=43EKAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 244-246
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=KYQTAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 130
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=RmVjAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 49
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=SPNjAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s Page 54
^ Luna Vegas, Emilio (1978). Cáceres, genio militar. Peru: Librería Editorial Minerva-Miraflores. p. 19. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Valdés Vergara, Francisco (1908). Historia de Shile para la enseñanza primaria. California: Sociedad "Imprenta y litografía Universo". p. 319. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Elías Murguía, Julio J. (1980). Marinos peruanos en Arica. Peru: Instituto de Estudios Histórico-Maritimos del Perú. p. 38. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Basadre, Jorge (1961). Historia de la República del Perú. Michigan: Ediciones "Historia". p. 2538. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ Calero y Moreira, Jacinto (1794). Mercurio peruano. Peru: Biblioteca Nacional del Perú. pp. 44-46. Retrieved July 22, 2009.
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 120:
^ ee Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 120:
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 7, page 121:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 208:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Chile and the war of the Pacific", page 180:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 152: Lynch's force consisted f the 1° Line Regiment and the Regiments "Talca" and "Colchagua", a battery of mountain howitzers, and a small cavalry squadron for a total of twenty-two hundred man
^ Diego Barros Arana, Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), vol. 2, page 98: [El gobierno chileno] Creía entonces que todavía era posible demostrar prácticamente al enemigo la imposibilidad en que se hallaba para defender el territorio peruano no ya contra un ejército numeroso sino contra pequeñas divisiones. Este fué el objeto de una espedicion que las quejas, los insultos i las lamentaciones de los documentos oficiales del Perú, i de los escritos de su prensa, han hecho famosa.
^ See also Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru", Tomo V, Editorial Peruamerica S.A., Lima-Peru, 1964, page 2475,
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 260 and ff
^ Diego Barros Arana quotes Johann Caspar Bluntschli: Bluntschili (Derecho internacional codificado) dice espresamente lo que sigue: Árt. 544. Cuando el enemigo ha tomado posesión efectiva de una parte del territorio, el gobierno del otro estado deja de ejercer alli el poder. Los habitantes del territorio ocupado están eximidos de todos los deberes i obligaciones respecto del gobierno anterior, i están obligados a obedecer a los jefes del ejército de ocupación.
^ http://books.google.com/books?id=DGexys3TxhQC&pg=PA104&dq=Italia+Guerra+del+Pacifico Page 97
^ See American Mediation: Peace Talks on the Lackawanna
^ B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 130:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 217 and ff.
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", table on page 222
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 222:
^ B.W.Farcau in "The Ten Cents War", page 138 specifies 3,100 men in Arequipa, 2,000 men in Arica and 9,000 men in Tacna, but this figures contradict the total numbers given (below) by W.F.Sater in page 229
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 138:
^ See also W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 227:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 229
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 256
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Tens Cents War", page 147
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 149-150:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Tens Cents War", page 157:
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 259
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andan Tragedy", page 276 and ff.
^ B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 157 gives 26,000 men but W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 274, gives 25,000 to 32,000 men
^ a b See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 164:
^ Villalobos, Sergio. [[10] Chile y Perú: la historia que nos une y nos separa, 1535-1883]. p. 185. Retrieved 28. September 2009.
^ See Charles de Varigny, "La Guerra del Pacifico", Imprenta Cervantes, Moneda 1170, Santiago de Chile, 1922, page XVIII: rendía incondicionalmente. La soldadesca [peruana] desmoralizada y no desarmada saqueaba la ciudad en la noche del 16, el incendio la alumbraba siniestramente y el espanto reinaba en toda ella.
^ See Jorge Besadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile", Chapter 'Los horrores de Chorrillos':
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 296.
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 302:
^ See Bruce W. Farcau, "The ten Cents War", Praegers Publishers, 88 Post Road West, Westport, CT 06881, ISBN 0-275-96925-8, Chapter 11, page 173
^ see W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 309 and ff
^ See William F. Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 312:
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 315 and ff
^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 304-306:
^ a b See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 329 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 306 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 329-330 ^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 181-182 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 317-338 ^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War" pages 183-187 ^ See W.F.Sater, "Chile and the War Of The Pacific", page 220: ^ See W.F.Sater, "Andean Tragedy", page 90:
^ Diego Barros Arana, Historia de la guerra del Pacífico (1879-1880), Volumen 1, page 115
^ See Jorge Basadre, "Historia de la Republica del Peru, La guerra con Chile", Chapter 'La vida en Lima durante la ocupacion': la Biblioteca Nacional despojada de muchos de sus libros;
^ Dan Collyns. "Chile returns looted Peru books". BBC. Retrieved 2007-11-10.
^ http://www.history.appstate.edu/ConferencePapers/dorotheamartinpaper.pdf
^ See "The Ambiguous Relationship: Theodore Roosevelt and Alfred Thayer Mahan" by Richard W. Turk; Greenwood Press, 1987. 183 pgs. page 10
^ See Larrie D. Ferreiro 'Mahan and the "English Club” of Lima, Peru: The Genesis of The Influence of Sea Power upon History', The Journal of Military History - Volume 72, Number 3, July 2008, pp. 901-906
^ See B.W.Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page2: it has largela been ignored outside the region as neither the USA nor any major European power had a stake in the game
^ El dia del mar se recordara con mas que un tradicional desfile civico
^ Crow, The Epic of Latin America, p. 180
^ Foster, John B. & Clark, Brett. (2003). "Ecological Imperialism: The Curse of Capitalism" (accessed 2 September 2005). The Socialist Register 2004, p190-192. Also available in print from Merlin Press.
^ Dominguez, Jorge et al. 2003 Boundary Disputes in Latin America. United States Washington, D.C.: Institute of Peace.
^ See Chile: physical features, natural resources, means of communication by George J. Mills, William Henry Koebel (page 39)
^ http://www.monitor.upeace.org/archive.cfm?id_article=301#_ftn3
^ See Mariano Felipe Paz Soldan, "Relacion Historica de la Guerra de Chile contra el Per y Bolivia" page 102,:
^ See also speech of Profesor Belisario Llosa Rivera, cited by Jorge Basadre Grohmann "Historia de la Republica" or here: Pero, al mismo tiempo, expresó su certeza de que, en diez años de unión, orden, economía, y laboriosidad, el Perú sería un gran país, capaz de vengarse.
^ See Five Sad Reasons to Worry about Peru (retrieved 24. September 2009):
^ See Hardi Schindler, "Konflikte in Südamerika", page 56, here: Die Befürchtungen vor einer chilenisch-bolivianischen Einigung auf seine Kosten und der latenten Revanchismus des peruanischen Militärs wegen der Gebietsverluste an Chile und Brasilien verstärken den Anspruch des Landes, an allen eventuellen Verhandlungen gemäß dem Vertrag von 1929 beteiligt zu werden (Translation: The fear an Chilean-Bolivian agreement at the expense of Peru and the latent revanchism of the Peruvian military because of the lost of territories to Chile and Brasil bolster up the demand of the country [Peru] to be part of any negotiation according the treaty of 1929)
^ See Speech of former President of Argentina in Latin America at a Crossroads (retrieved 24 September 2009):
|
Hi Fifelfoo,
I edited and normalized almost every reference. I think most of flaws were trivial, like incomplete citation, not in bibliography, spacing, Unacceptable citation format (!) and such kind of bagatelle. I replaced some dubious source with references to Farcau or Sater.
But some problems are still there:
I think the references are now much better. The content remains unchanged. Please take a look in-depth this time and tell me your valuable opinion. -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Text and maps only shows one POV
Arafael ( talk) 15:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
You have to explain why the issues are POV. You have placed the template as a bot would have done it and that doesn't work. This is a textbook example of how to abuse of the POV-tag to harass other editors. -- Keysanger ( talk) 15:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a lot of articles written by one editor, that doesn't matter. The criteria for POV are others. The same is valid for articles based on books. One is good, two are better, etc. Hera are a lot of books. Important is that the article remains neutral. Please be precise:
You have to explain, give your reasons and build consensus. You don't begin the process and you put already the POV-tag!
If you like you can see the process in archive 7. Do not insist before you explain consistently your claims. -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Is it all what you have to say? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Do not write events during the war in sections dedicated to events before the war and don't use primary sources as reference for sentences. -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I deleted a second time your contributuion.
The Bolivian and the Chilean tax increses are well documented facts, but the direct arrangement of facts separated by a broken boundary treaty and 3 years of war (1878-1880) is delicated because we have to expose all the facts occured during this time period. The direct deduction of the comparison is "Chilean are hypocrites because they took what they denied to Bolivians" and that would be POV because as Farcau stated Bruce W. Farcau, "The Ten Cents War", page 41,:
The issue was not the 10 cents but that "a conscious precedent was being set". Best regards, -- Keysanger ( talk) 11:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I AGREE your contribution, but don't use Markham as source because it is a primary source (and pro-Peruvian biased). Farcau and Sater support your statament, so you won't have problems to find references. If you can't finf them I will do it tomorrow. Also you have to respect the due weight: the batle of chorrillos is described only with 57 words, therefore the preparation should be shorter. -- Keysanger ( talk) 20:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Can you support the statement: "Sater is based in Chileans sources so he is pro-Chilean" ?. I respect you but I am not interested in your personal opinions. Anyway, it is primary source. Please change it. -- Keysanger ( talk) 22:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
So if Tommaso Caivano(italian) (Storia della guerra d' America fra il Chili, il Peru e la Bolivia) or Clements Markhan(british) ("The War between Peru and Chile"), or Jacinto Lopez(venezuelan) (Historia de la guerra del guano y el salitre) and even José Martí(cuban) (Cuaderno N° 13 Tomo 21 de Obras Completas) refute the chilean version all them are "properuvians" and must be ignore and delete, why "Andean Tragedy: Fighting the War of the Pacific, 1879-1884" (by Sater) must be considerate the real true history of the war and be the main source of these article? For example (only one) acording to this author peruvian defenses(in Lima) were "supported by a formidable collection of coastal guns" most of heavy artillery was in the port of Callao and didn't take part of the battles of San Juan and Miraflores, self made peruvians Grieve and White field cannons can be considerate formidable artillery as the prusian 80 Krupps of the chilean artillery?, if Jose Francisco Vergara (chilean minister of war) said that peruvians had "insignifican civic cavalry parties and very insufficient and bad artillery troops" he is properuvian too? and what about Mason (sailor of the USN) "the artillery(peruvian), with enought material, some antiquated, another part made by empirical procediments by private manufacters of Lima and without fire exercises, wasn't able to compite with the experienced and well armed chilean artillery " following your point of view anyone who contradice the version that you like is parcialize, Arafael had quoted some of the non neutral parts of the article, to get a real neutrality both versions must be show, the reader will decide, that is what chileans and peruvians wikipedists continue doing in the spanish page "La guerra del pacífico". Rasdar2 ( talk) 15:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
And what about Sater as an parcialize source? Arafael just proved it. Rasdar2 ( talk) 16:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
How is Sir Markham a primary source? He is an Englishman who took the time to write a book on the war based on the accounts of other people. Therefore, by definition, Markham is not a primary source. He is more of a secondary source. However, it is obvious that Markham tends to be pro-Peru. This is the same case with Sater, another secondary source, who tends to be pro-Chile. Who are you to decide what is a right and what is a wrong source, Mr. Keysanger? Shouldn't Wikipedia mix these two sources in order to arrive to a neutral conclusion?--Voice of Reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 17:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Our concepts of primary sources are different, if Sater is considerate and imparcial and secondary source, i don't agree with you. Rasdar2 ( talk) 19:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it's obvious by now that User:Keysanger has a severe ownership problem with this article. Just take a look at the article's history and there will be an ocean of "Keysanger" edits throughout it. I think that this should be reported to a Wikipedia administrator as it goes against the spirit of the project.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 14:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Fifelfoo hasn't been the only person Keysanger has contacted for an RfC for the War of the Pacific. He has contacted User:Anarchangel ( [4]), User:David Underdown ( [5]), User:Necessary Evil ( [6]), among others. Yet, my question is (based on what happened with Fifelfoo), why does Keysanger want so many RfCs if he is not going to listen to what they tell him? I suppose that it's not wrong for RfCs to be asked for articles, but why ask them if you're not going to do what they recommend? Moreover, why then claim that you've done what they recommended, when in fact such a thing has not been done?-- MarshalN20 | Talk 13:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I see some of the editors don't know Sater. I already explained that Sater is one of the best if not the best historian about the issue.
His book "Andean Tragedy" has 442 pages, included approx. 60 pages with references, 15 pages bibliography and 6 pages of index.
About the quality, read please:
Do you know a better source for "The War of the Pacific"? -- Keysanger ( talk) 17:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Arafael:
Please cite the whole sentence:
What is "chilenista"?
That make sense only to say "a person who studies Chile". Therefore he says "siempre voy a ser extranjero, "chilenista" y no chileno" that is "I will always remain allien, chilenista but not Chilean".
Sater is very critical with the Chilean society. Please read more about him.
what is natinalistic in "...Taking sides with Chilean Historian Francisco Encina, the author treats General Baquedano with equal ferocity...."?
Baquedano is critized because of his military strategy. What is the problem there.
Fifelfo:
I agree with you. Tell me which are the sentences in the text that are not NPOV and the sources they make different evaluations. I am openminded to accept changes in the text. Let's go on!
Which sentence is not NPOV?
-- Keysanger ( talk) 18:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Because Sir Markham is a primary source, how many times have I to repeat it! -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:03, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I repeat: What do you want to change? Which sentence is not neutral? which are your better sources? why is that sentence no neutral? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Keysanger, do you need a break? If you keep repeating yourself, then you are probably not explaining yourself correctly.//Voice of Reason ( 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 18:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
Hitler is also in Wikipedia Don't read the article about him. Which is your issue? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I asked your advice for continue the work. Please give me information about:
What do you mean with :
As I understand, we don't need to add every citation to the bibliography. If the author is (correctly) cited once, then we don't need to add it to the B. Am I right? -- Keysanger ( talk) 18:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that talking to Mr. Keysanger is like talking to a spinning wheel. You respond to it, and it comes back around to the same question. You give it help, and it comes back around to the same question. And when it tries to answer a question or make a statement, it goes around in circles without really saying anything. Mr. Keysanger, have you ever given thought to listening to the suggestions of others or to reply in a straight-forward way (perhaps laconic) instead of going around in circles?//Voice of Reason ( 165.91.173.174 ( talk) 18:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC))
I've listed some sentences and paragraphs before. Arafael ( talk) 18:51, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
What about the map? -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:18, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I am looking to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MPazSoldan.1888-2xChile.djvu as source map.
Near 26°S there is a horizontal line until 66,5°W and there the border go upwards until approx 21,5°S and then straigh to east. ("limite actual")
Now we look http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wotp.en.svg the article's map.
Give 5 minutes and I will load a new map. -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Now is the new map there. Do you agree? -- Keysanger ( talk) 19:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Have you seen the dates? they are all wrong! "On 28 November 1880 declared the formal blockade of Arica" Arica falls on june seven (1880); "On 24 February 1881 approximately 11,000 men in nineteen ships" Lima falls on 17 january(1881)! The Lackawanna Conference was after the campaing of Tacna an Arica, Sater said that? (¿?) Rasdar2 ( talk) 20:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
You havn't mentioned any reason for. The colors of the map aren't. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
please dont be fatuous, all the dates are wrong, where did you get that information? ok lets star a point by point debate, first the ilegal or legal bolivian tax, i'm back in 4 hours. Rasdar2 ( talk) 21:18, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I wrote my references already:
Please write yours. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Tell me what are your reliable sources -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I try to dialog with Keysanger, we started ok; but he revert a new text, in order to reach NPOV. Arafael ( talk) 21:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
You copied the begining of 15 sentences. -- Keysanger ( talk) 21:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
if your concept of "reliable sources" exclude all peruvians and bolivians historians there is a problem, any single chilean historian know that these 15 points are controversial, show all your cards and let us do the same, we are not talking about personal opinions Rasdar2 ( talk) 21:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I am seriously getting tired of this. Please look at the first two letters of the website? Do you see "en"? I do. Fifelfoo ( talk) 00:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
About the quote of chilean newspaper "La Patria", source: "Mariano Felipe Paz Soldan "Historical Narration of the war of Chile against Peru and Bolivia" Vol. 2 page 247" acording to Sater peruvian and bolivian politics "forced" Chile to continue the war, but it public opinion said another thing, El Mercurio de Valparaíso december 1 (1880): "To get a peace with Peru, is indispensable reduce it to complety impotence, for a period of 50 years at less" La Patria June 30 (1880) "revenche, revenche claim today the child and the old man, the warrior and the priest... In Chile there isnt any other sentiment, other expresion, other wish than these Revenche! the chilean cannon must take down the walls of Ancón, the bullets from Chile must get in ruins the mansions of the impudic Chorrillos" Who is the victim and who is the agresor is the eternal question in any war of history, maybe peruvian press said something similar in 1880 but, however, the article must be neutral. The real, undoubtly, and neutral cause of the continue of war was the fail of the Lackawanna Conference. (but keysanger made a mistake with the dates and the chronological order putting it in 1879). Dont said now that chilean press are not a valid source for the public opinion in Chile after the campaign of Lima. The other source is from John Lawrence Rector professor of history at Western Oregon University, "Aunque no entra en detalles ...entrega toda la información histórica básica...y lo hace en una perspectiva objetiva y ponderada. Un libro sin duda recomendable." Cristian Gazmuri profesor de la Pontificia Universidad Católica de Chile -> "although he doesnt enter in details...give all the historic basic informacion... and make it by an objective and ponderate perspective. A, without doubt, recomendable book. Cristian Gazmuri. Rasdar2 ( talk) 02:10, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem regarding primary vs. secondary sourcing. I see two main roots to this problem. The first is Keysanger's policy to judge which source, whether primary or secondary, is acceptable or not. For example, Diego Barros Arana is a primary pro-Chilean source, and yet Keysanger freely uses him for at least 3 citations. He does not allow this for Clements Markham, Tomas Caivano, and other sources which could be beneficial for the article. I say "could" because primary sources are always difficult to use in any sort of article seeking to create a NPOV with reliable references. This leads to the second root of the problem, which is that some of you seem to not have read WP:PRIMARY. I quote part of it here (but still encourage you to read the page):
Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source.
I hope this helps clear up the problem.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 03:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
"...El territorio salitrero de Antofagasta y el territorio salitrero de Tarapacá fueron la causa real y directa de la guerra..."
Patricio Valdivieso. Relations of Chile, Bolivia, Perú: the War of the Pacific. Santiago: Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile. June 2004, Page 8.
Luis Ortega Martínez. Chile en route to capitalism: change, euphoria and depression 1850-1880. Santiago: Research Center Diego Barros Arana. Management of archives, libraries and museums of Chile (Centro de Investigaciones Diego Barros Arana. Direccion de archivos, bibliotecas y museos de Chile). 2005. Pag 437
Arafael ( talk) 14:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Valentín Abecia Baldivieso. International relations in the history of Bolivia, Volume 2. La Paz: National Academy of Sciences of Bolivia (Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia). 1986. Page 73.
Arafael ( talk) 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)