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Archive 1 |
Note that this article is about a different topic than the article that was deleted by the same name in the AfD. Ethanbas ( talk) 06:01, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I removed the allies / opponents parts of the infobox because it should be clear as day that mercenary groups are not subject to such concepts since they are paid to support or oppose whomever their employer tells them to. Likewise, if they really are a PMC, we are using the wrong infobox since they are not a "faction" in the war, just contractors for one of the real factions. The articles other PMC groups for example use the company-type infobox instead. Eik Corell ( talk) 02:04, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
I was a bit puzzled by the edit summary of this edit Axxxion. Is their a reason why a Russian intelligence service would help a Ukrainian intelligence service that I have missed? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:47, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
P,S. Talking of WSJ, in terms of its location on the political spectrum: it is an American analogue of Russian Zavtra newspaper. Axxxion ( talk) 22:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Wagner Group has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the first sentence of the first subsection The founder of the company is alleged to be Dmitriy Valeryevich Utkin, who was born in Kirovohrad Oblast (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic of the USSR) in 1970., which in its current form is not in line with WP:ALLEGED, to Its been stated that the founder of the company is Dmitriy Valeryevich Utkin... (etc). This would present his founder status not as fact for the sake of compromise, taking into account a fellow editor's insistence not to present anything about the group as fact, but still keeping the sentence within WP guidelines. Thank you. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
edit protected}}
template. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 07:14, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
″Kelly also said that one of President Donald Trump's biggest frustrations is with the media, suggesting that reporters should "develop some better sources." One of his frustrations is you, all of you, not all of you, but many of you," Kelly said in response to a question about Trump's frustrations.″ [2]. Axxxion ( talk) 22:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Список Вагнера -- methinks, we do not have it in the article, at least in the original form. It provides further allegations (strictly anecdotal) that seem to give an update to recent developments in this ″pmc″. Interestingly, they appear to partially contradict the recent public allegations by SBU. Axxxion ( talk) 18:48, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I think the way the article is now is good. Call the organization "Wagner Group", but mention different points of view. Just be careful not to cite sources that are too far out there. Ethanbas ( talk) 16:29, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Note that the Daily Mail, per community decision, is not considered a reliable source, and the corresponding paragraph must be removed from the article.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 14:59, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Axxxion I would please ask that you do not do massive reverts of my edits like you just did. Now, lets see what the problem is. First, you asked what the source is for OSM. The source is right there, citing the sentence. The Wall Street Journal clearly states their formal name is OSM. However, for the sake of compromise I have changed the wording so OSM is simply stated to be one of the other names of the company. Now, can you please list all of the other problems or objections that you have here on the talk page and we can go through them together one by one and find compromise solutions for each of them. Thank you in advance! EkoGraf ( talk) 19:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Was just passing by, could not help mentioning a problem: do some fact check, folks, before posting as 'trusted' and read the bloody material u are referring to. censor.net is a known fake generator (googleable) and news editor; the article on the 'russian news site' which i read thru was a pile of noodles, pardon my language - not a single reference there, not a single name, just a school level composition with 1 pic from the web that I could generate like in 15 min without too much effort.
'Neutrality' is also a concept long forgotten - a bunch of allegations is narrated in a 'factual' manner hiding behind the word 'reportedly' - despite that most if not all of those reports come from either a mouthpiece of Ukrainan (usurper) rejime propaganda, or from their secret service, or from Russian highly-biased (and highly-inadequate as often) antiestablishment 'outlets' (like Alex Jones but of a much poorer quality), and the source in those 'reports' is often "they say" or "they ascribe". Im scared to think the rest of wiki is as biased.. Whats the problem? Is it poor skills in Russian? Aint there any native speaking volunteers? Or just lazy? But "they say" doesnot become something bigger just for being printed in The Times. Good luck ye all and thnx anyway for the effort to brindg knowledge 2 people & keep this dying horse arun)))))
176.127.119.118 (
talk) 17:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
The guy at the center of the troll factory. Quite a few sources now making the connection Legacypac ( talk) 05:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I notice "Wagner" is italicized throughout the article, which stood out to me as something I haven't seen before in articles about groups. I see this has been the case since the article's beginning. Is this necessary; am I missing something? Just wanted to ask before I bother going in to change it all. Any input would be appreciated, thanks. Jessicapierce ( talk) 17:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I managed to read through the lead and first section of this article, and here are a few things that I'd like to point out:
'History, organization, status' section
The article looks fine overall, and might even qualify as a GA candidate. But some issues, mainly the unattributed weasel words, need to be dealt with first. Nice work. Fitzcarmalan ( talk) 21:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
The details about casualties, in Khryashchevatoe village and Luhansk Airport particulary, are stated on 18th image presented by SBU. We may replace it by a total number of 15 dead which are stated for Luhansk August-2014 battles in general: Участие в штурме аэропорта "Луганск" и сбивании Ил-76 принимали участие 72 боевика, из них потери 200-ми 15 человек. -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 20:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
EkoGraf, can you clarify what is the source for the claim you've added:
The Ukrainian SBU claimed the Wagner Group had lost 102 PMCs
Thanks, -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 21:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
EkoGraf, can you provide the context for your question? I thought we've cleared the matter, was there a new source with same mistake? -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 16:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Fitzcarmalan, as stated in a previous discussion and in the article itself, most sources agree they are actually an extension of the Russian MoD/GRU, leaving Wagner Group only a private company in name. EkoGraf ( talk) 09:44, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Berkan~svwiki, please discuss the issue and do not remove sourced information. Reuters is considered a highly reliable/verifiable source by Wikipedia and edits based on our personal feelings about what they are reporting are considered POV edits which are not permitted per Wiki policy. Sources for the assertions have been properly attributed, as per Wiki policy. As Vif12vf has also said, consensus is required for the kind of changes you are requesting. In addition, the usage of the wording such as "alleged" is generally not used as per Wiki policy as well. EkoGraf ( talk) 23:48, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
EkoGraf, no properly sourced information has been removed. What was removed was self-contradictory POV derived from the Reuters item which indeed gave conflicting information originally. If basing a new section on an article that states nothing more specific than that between 2 and 400 military contractors may have arrived in Venezuela between 2018 and 2019, then it can not be reasonable to simply pick one of those possibilities that you prefer and write it as if either is conclusively supported in the source itself. Regarding the "42 people were killed during the protests.[234]", it is completely non-sequitur to the context (which protests?), and refers to both a limited scope of the time period alluded to and is an ongoing event but reads as if it were historical. You are very welcome to improve on these changes, but rolling them back to the unencyclopedic form it was in before the edit is entirely counterproductive. Thank you for pointing out the word "alleged" is not suitable, but unless you can improve on the quality I see no justification for rolling this back. Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:36, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
EkoGraf, please read the material in question if you want to vet it. One contradiction: "Yevgeny Shabayev, leader of a local chapter of a paramilitary group of Cossacks with ties to Russian military contractors, said he had heard the number of Russian contractors in Venezuela may be about 400." ("Shabayev") "“They did not arrive in a big crowd,” he said." (Third source). Second contradiction: "He said they set off in two chartered aircraft for Havana, Cuba, from where they transferred onto regular commercial flights to Venezuela." "A Russian Ilyushin-96 flew into Havana late on Wednesday after starting its journey in Moscow and flying via Senegal and Paraguay, the data showed." How are you denying that these are self-contradictory and incomplete data being used to assert two different conclusions - one being that there is a small contingent and the other being that there is a large contingent? Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Is it me, or is this section somewhat poorly written and confusing? The mention of a cossack paramilitary chapter under Venezuela being open to misinterpretation, and the chronology seeming unclear. Can't help but notice that all other operations are supported by several citations as well. I hesitate to address this considering the recent edit history. 103.77.235.67 ( talk) 15:21, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
The article currently reads, in places, like a blow by blow description of a prize fight. The key to an encyclopedia is summarize. Also editors should note that the Wikipedia is not news. Every fighter's death in Tripoli may be news, but it is not encyclopedic. Remember every sentence must have a point that contributes to the understanding of the topic. You don't have to discard reliable sources, but an editor needs to consolidate information and present it in an informative way. A chronological hodge-podge seldom does that. Please consider rewriting such portions of this article that are overly detailed; otherwise other editors may not be as considerate as you can be when they make this article conform to Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Good luck. -- Bejnar ( talk) 02:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
user:suwa 17:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
I am not an active editor on this page, but I think that it would be a good idea to split off the article's current history section into a sub-article, termed "History of the Wagner Group" or "Operations of the Wagner Group". In this way, we can preserve the great details of the article, while preventing bloating. Applodion ( talk) 12:26, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
The allegations into the group of war crimes and extrajudicial killings must be made in separate paragraph instead of being mentioned there and there.-- 101.100.146.39 ( talk) 00:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Right now the bottom link in the infobox links to a dab. This is not really acceptable; we must either disambiguate or delink.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 16:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The difference between the Akademi and the Wagner Group Wikipedia articles is stupefying. Both are private military contractors, both have done work for their governments, both compete for international security contracts and both have been employed by their country's intelligence services (CIA and the FSB/GRU). Yet the articles about the two are worlds apart, with Wagner Group being labelled as a paramilitary force of the Russian military and Akademi as a legitimately independent private company.
In my opinion the article about Akademi is fairer and less POV. Wagner Group's article should be structured like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HadesTheEldest ( talk • contribs) 15:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Proven wrong by cnn (see latest on www.cnn.com) due to the subject's nature, only add credible ""NEWS"" sources and high ranking websites instead of "Internet Blogs", any attempt to Undo this revert shall have to take a look at the stated facts and represent them in a more objective fashion as well as remove some of the adjectives, also, use at least 3 NEWS citations per line (BBC...) due to the interest on the subject. visit the talk page.
The adjectives in this report are almost
Putn wants to win but not at any cost?
Shadows?
It seems like a combo between a bad theory, audience-pleasure political rant and crapfest, it should tune down
If you want to bring back the information:
state the event, very shortly
have more citations than necessary
glance around the whole finished article and remove anything that can be removed
There is something called "wrong" and there is sabotage that is very well made to hide stuff from users without alerting others, mind such sabotage.
The Radio Liberty writes: "As for the Russian mercenaries from PMC Wagner, a day after the publication, Radio Liberty still does not have any independent confirmation of the fact of their presence in the self-proclaimed republic [of NKR]." [16] 46.72.61.105 ( talk) 13:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
I have removed File:Wagner Group.png because of concerns about its provenance. The source is a forum post at a role playing community. Accordingly, the origins of the image are rightfully questioned.
If anybody can trace the image to another source, please list that source here, so we can review. — C.Fred ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
How notable is the tablet seen by the BBC? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/8iaz6xit26/the-lost-tablet-and-the-secret-documents
Hcobb ( talk) 12:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
This article states he was born in Ukrainian SSR, but his own states he was born in Asbest, RSFSR. Both sources are not the best, frankly speaking. But the first one is worse, as far as I can tell. Smeagol 17 ( talk) 20:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf: Should this section be here because of "German Parliament member Patrick Sensburg theorizing"? Or is there more? Smeagol 17 ( talk) 11:41, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 348#The @Suriyak Twitter account for occupation of various locations on the Syrian Civil War situation map and obviously WP:TWITTER. FDW777 ( talk) 08:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) NW1223 <Howl at me• My hunts> 02:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Wagner Group → PMC Liga – According to several Russian and Western sources, the company has rebranded to Liga [17] [18] [19]. Pious Brother ( talk) 01:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of the Rusich (also known as Task Force Rusich), a neo-Nazi-oriented subgroup of the Wagner Group. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:54, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Kolovrat is not a "slavic swastika" and should not be named as that because it implies thst It's a nazi or neo-nazi simbol while It's not. It may be used by some neo nazis but that is not enough to clasify it as that, because the kolovrar is an ancient symbols used by many groups. The same as an swastika in India is not a nazi simbol but in the western world it is... 31.223.150.97 ( talk) 11:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
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If this group is Neo-Nazi in orientation, why not include that term in the article's text? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 02:17, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
"Links to far right" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists "neo-Nazi Russian mercenaries" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rusichs-neo-nazi-mercenaries-head-for-kharkiv-prjndp9rl, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/08/russia-send-notorious-neo-nazi-mercenaries-ukraine/, https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-terrifying-neo-nazi-mercenaries-being-deployed-in-ukraine, https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1592997/Ukraine-news-band-neo-nazi-mercenaries-rusich-wagner-russia-update "Neo-Nazi Russian Attack Unit" https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagners-rusich-neo-nazi-attack-unit-hints-its-going-back-into-ukraine-undercover We might also be able to use this https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/putin-nazi-pretext-russia-war-ukraine-belied-white-supremacy-ties-rcna23043
I gave up at this point, as this is enough for us to say they are Neo-nazi. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
One more time. There's five sources given (right now, easily can find more but don't want to ref bomb) which link THE ENTIRE organization to neo-Nazism and white supremacy. Can we please drop this "it's only a few bad apples within it" nonsense? I mean, ffs, their leader (decorated by Putin) is covered in Nazi tattoos, in their own promotional videos they talk about how they're "the saviors of the white race" (intermixed with footage of themselves proudly torturing and decapitating captives) and there's literally dozens of sources which confirm it. This is beyond absurd at this point. Volunteer Marek 09:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Wagner is led by Dmitry Utkin, a former head of Russia’s foreign military intelligence agency. Utkin is believed be a Nazi sympathizer and may have named the group after the German composer Richard Wagner, whose work Adolf Hitler revered. [43]
Even the very first source (still in the article) I looked at says:
Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism.
-->
[44]
but
Shankargb removed it
[45] and you
EkoGraf removed the Neo-Nazi cat. -->
[46] I believe that’s not how it works around here. I would appreciate if you both self reverted your removals and dispute the source first. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
@
GizzyCatBella: You are citing Foreign Policy,
[52] and it writes: The propaganda campaign has extolled the Wagner Group as hunting neo-Nazis and extremists. Yet the group’s own ties to the Russian far-right are well documented: The likely founder of the group has the logo of the Nazi Schutzstaffel tattooed on his neck. Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism.
Foreign Policy is saying that Wagner Group is propagated to be fighting "neo-Nazis and extremists" but "the group's own ties to the Russian far-right" are documented and then it presents the sentence that we are using. It is categorizing "neo-Nazis and "far-right extremism" under the broader of "far-right".
You have missed that I cited ABC and The Guardian to support my argument above. The Guardian say Wagner is "almost certainly connected with extreme far-right organisations
"
[53] while ABC says "sympathies to far-right groups [and] there's probably some in the general recruitment that also have those sympathies, predominantly, it's not an ideological group.
"
[54]
This shows that we can't state "Various elements of Wagner have also been linked to Neo-Nazis and far-right extremists" in Wikivoice because The Guardian says the connection almost certain, not wholly evident while ABC say that the connection is not relevant because its not exactly ideological group.
A proper representation of these sources would be: "While the group itself isn't ideologically driven, various elements group have been linked to far-right extremists."
You can see how all these sources, who are making connection with anything "Neo-Nazi", are basing their claim over the name "Wagner" to have taken from the " Richard Wagner" the favorite musician of Nazi Adolf Hitler and the "recently" appeared picture of "likely founder" or "alleged founder" Dimitry Utkin having SS "tattoo".
But
Foreign Policy publication itself did a good research last year, showing that the name "Wagner" has no origin and is likely a "convenient cliche
" and the article further noted that Dmitry Utkin hasn't been seen since 2016. Furthermore, Foreign Policy also described how "most likely is no Wagner Group.
"
[55]
"Parsing facts from the mythology that has developed around the Wagner Group gets particularly messy on this issue. “We don’t really know where this name comes from,” Sukhankin said. “In many ways this is a convenient cliche.”
The name Wagner is reported to have been the nom de guerre of one of the group’s early commanders in the fighting in eastern Ukraine, Dmitry Utkin, a former lieutenant colonel in the Russian military intelligence service, the GRU. Utkin is alleged to have been enamored with Nazi Germany, including Adolf Hitler’s favorite composer, Richard Wagner. In 2016, Utkin was pictured at a ceremony in the Kremlin intended to honor the courage of military personnel and civilians, but he hasn’t been seen in public since.
The mythology around Wagner appears to be something Prigozhin is keen to indulge. He is reported to have funded three feature-length action movies about the group’s operatives in Libya and the Central African Republic. The film Tourist, which had its premiere in the latter country’s capital, Bangui, earlier this year, offers a heroic portrayal of a group of Russian military advisors dispatched to the country to fight back violent rebel groups." [56]
After taking this important information into account, I really don't think we should be basing our understanding on the views disputed or refuted by the better experts. Shankargb ( talk) 03:00, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
As discussed above, and agreed by several users "Neo-Nazism" should be taken out of the lead as it is already covered by "far-right extremism" and 2nd paragraph is better for the sentence. Though I have added that Wagner is not ideologically driven per ABC.
Another theory is that "Wagner group" name came from Utkin's enthusiasm for the helicopter scene from 1979 Hollywood movie Apocalypse Now. [57] [58] I added this to article's body.
In 2018, Utkin was reported to be a " Rodnover" by multiple sources based on the accounts provided by members of Wagner group [59] [60] and it seems that it was easy to confuse his Slavic Native Faith with Nazism in the later articles because both have some similar symbols. I am also sure that the confusion was accidental because at least 9/10 people in the western world would be aware of Nazism but not even 1/50 would be aware of " Rodnovery", the actual belief of Utkin. We should also remember that Foreign Policy, [61] National World, [62] and others reported that Utkin hasn't been seen since 2016. I am saying this because no new evidence could have propped between 2018 - 2022 that could influence already developed understanding about Utkin because he hasn't been seen since 2016. I have added about Utkin being a Rodnover on article body since this is important.
I expect this sums up the issue. Shankargb ( talk) 15:46, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Wagner exactly once" but 3 times on this single page alone. You are wrong if you are thinking that your misrepresentation of sources would be overlooked because of the personal attacks you are making. You need to stop throwing strawman to prove your argument instead of commenting on the specifics pointed above in a very polite manner compared to your frequent violation of WP:NPA. I understand your frustration because you are being a WP:1AM who reverted Ekograf, [67] [68] IP, [69] LordLyoko, [70] me, [71] Shankargb, [72] and anyone who gets in the way of your POV pushing. If strawman, personal attacks and edit warring is what you want to engage in then you should WP:DROPTHESTICK. Srijanx22 ( talk) 06:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
There is absolutely no consensus to add "Neo-Nazism" on the leadwhat you mean is that you and Shankargb are willing to edit war and ignore more than a half a dozen sources to keep it out of the lede per some kind of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. There's at least 8 reliable sources which say so!!! How can you just blatantly ignore and violate Wikipedia policy like that? Cuz you can tag team to bully your way through on this article?
What has been argued above that is already covered under "Far-right extremism"One more time - WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - no, "far right extremism" and "neo Nazism" are NOT the same thing. One is a subset of the other. IF we were forced to choose between the two (we aren't, since sources use both) we would go with "neo Nazism" as it's more specific. This has ALREADY been explained and the response from you and Shankargb has been basically "I don't care I do what I want!"
Though I see a number of statements above that the allegation that the founder is sympathizer of Neo-nazism (not nazi himself) are misconstruedWait what????? You're actually saying there are sources which deny the fact that the guy covered in swastika and SS tattoos is "not a nazi himself" (fucking seriously?) or that he is not a "sympathizer of neo-Nazism"? Which sources are these? List them right here. Or stop making obviously and egregiously false claims.
There is still no source which say Wagner is a Neo-Nazi groupCompletely and utterly false!!! Have you even bothered to look at the sources you're edit warring to remove? The very first one. The first one. The one at the beginning. The one that you should look at first. Says: " Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism." Which is precisely what the agreed upon text - that you and Shankargb keep removing - says. Third source also says it. Fourth source says it. And so on. How in the world am I suppose to have a constructive conversation with someone who will just sit there and make complete false claims?
SEVEN other sources", I quote the relevant part here: "Yet the group’s own ties to the Russian far-right are well documented" [73], "a former Russian soldier adorned with Nazi tattoos" [74], "Wagner mercenaries are reported to have left behind neo-Nazi propaganda" [75] (opinion piece), "the far-right ideology traces within the Wagner group can be traced with their use of specific symbols", [76] "Wagner mercenaries have reportedly left behind neo-Nazi propaganda in the conflict zones", [77](opinion piece by a student) "Dmitry Utkin, a mercenary with the Wagner Group, a private army financed by pro-Kremlin oligarchs, who bears Waffen-SS tattoos on his collarbone and chest, [78](opinion piece)
Coming to this late but can I just add my voice to what appears to be the view of the overwhelming majority of editors: that while there are good sources for neo-Nazi elements and neo-Nazi links, there is a lack of good sources for saying that the whole Group is neo-Nazi. We should accurately describe the elements and the links, but we cannot leap from that to a definitive blanket designation of the whole group. I also think VM is correct that "far-right" and "neo-Nazi" are not synonyms: the latter is a subset of the former. But where we have to choose one, we should use the more capacious term, as some sources emphasising "far right" don't mention neo-Nazi and therefore the more general term is far safer. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
..But I only removed the word "Neo-Nazism" because it is redundant as it is the same thing as "far-right extremism".--> [92] ,however, the source says
Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism[93].
Ukrainian MOD reports that Wagner is recruiting from Russian prisons with aims to recruit up to 10,000 personnel in two months. Recruitment has been conducted within the prison municipalities of Rostov, St. Petersburg, and Nizhny Novogrod. Recruits are said to be sent to a village near Molkino, Krasnodar Territory, a likely Wagner training facility.The contract is said to offer full amnesty for crimes committed following six months of service. Why isn't this mentioned in the article? 185.13.50.212 ( talk) 15:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
PMC, which I gather is short for private military company or private military contractor is not familiar to me. I think it ought to be spelled out or otherwise explained when it is first used in the article. LankyYankee ( talk) 11:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
It is also confusing, that in the lead the company is named as PMC Wagner and PMC defined as private military company but later in te text Wagner PMCs is used as the name of PMC Wagner's mercenaries though in the lead no any hint about the difference to PMC vs PMCs, and not mentioning the company as simply "Wagner". JSoos ( talk) 10:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Public recruitment in Russia: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/07/russias-private-military-contractor-wagner-comes-out-of-the-shadows-in-ukraine-war I just added a sentence on Yevgeny Prigozhin's page to that effect. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 21:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Wondering if the group is recruiting from there too... Lotje ( talk) 05:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
How comes that Ukraine isn't listed as opponent? 2A02:810A:D00:3B44:DCA:F82:9BC3:8175 ( talk) 08:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Recent Ryanverse books (Tom Clancy's legacy) include a company with a similar name. Same group? Will ( Talk - contribs) 00:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I’m not sure if this individual (who is a member of Task Force Rusich and is influential on Telegram) deserves a mention or not. He operates a Russian military vehicle with blatant Nazi symbols on it alongside the “Z”. It definitely undercuts Putin’s claim that the war is about “denazification”. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:AD07 ( talk) 03:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Logo of Wagner Group.
A grining menencing skull framed by the light-red crosshairs of a sniper rifle in a black background.
Padded by the group's name in the Latin and the Cyrillic script with a black background and a strong light-red outer border.
On the flag also followed by an outer black background color.
BoQsc ( talk) 11:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
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Could someone please add this to the article? Thank you! File:Emblem of the Rusich Group.jpg Vl2020 ( talk) 09:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
References
According to [94], Task Force Rusich’s Telegram channel has encouraged its members to commit war crimes, such as removing the limbs of still-living POWs and then falsely claiming they were already injured when they were captured, or simply killing them while in captivity. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:AFF0 ( talk) 02:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm excluding the claim made by a Newly created site, wartranslated.com about the size of Wagner Group, most sources agree on 6,000 to 8,000 men,this two sources are proven historically Reliable for WP policy. However the claim made by the url/site, previously mentioned is WP:EXTRAORDINARY, not need to consider. Mr.User200 ( talk) 02:53, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
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I would suggest that the "Size" in the infobox be increased to 20,000 per this BBC source which quotes the UK Ministry of Defence
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64050719 2A00:23C8:2D94:AC01:7E23:AE:3D39:E575 ( talk) 12:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
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While the Wagner Group itsel does not position itself as (January 11 2023) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.37.234.67 ( talk) 14:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
No mater if the claim is true pr not it should not be in the lead it should follow similar prosedure as the article for sparta battalion or the azov regiment 217.140.202.214 ( talk) 19:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
The infobox box says the founder is Prigozhin but, in the Origin section of the article, it says Utkin was the founder. GamerKlim9716 ( talk) 12:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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Request to add under the section Wagner Group#Activities
respectively. Also add link to Tourist (film) under the section Wagner Group#Awards and honors. 223.25.74.34 ( talk) 14:20, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
"The likely founder of the group has the logo of the Nazi Schutzstaffel tattooed on his neck."
I've searched for proof of this claim, but couldn't find anything substantial. The claim is often repeated in sourceless news publications, however. It is also absent on Yevgeny Prigozhin's wikipedia page.
Surely there's a better source available than a news magazine like Foreign Policy?
Additionally, I think the use of them as a source might have something to do with their very serious sounding name. News websites such as Fox News or Washington Post (whose parent owns Foreign Policy) are discouraged as sources. 205.185.107.25 ( talk) 16:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Could someone write an article about the activities of the Wagner group in Ukraine, as has already been done with Syria? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi ( talk) 21:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
The article should be renamed to Prigozhin Group for the following reasons:
RobiBuecheler ( talk) 01:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I suggest adding a nickname section to the information box as in sources Wagner commonly uses these to refer to themselves. I suggest adding:
• (The) Orchestra • Musicians • Wagnerians/Wagnerites
This would bring the page in-line with RU-Wikipedia as well. Coobadge1 ( talk) 09:02, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Is anyone working on Wagner Group activities in the Central African Republic or Wagner Group activities in Libya right now? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi ( talk) 09:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
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Wagner group 59.153.127.148 ( talk) 18:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
One of the former soldiers of the Afghan army 31.2.194.145 ( talk) 15:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
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Lithuania designates Wagner as a terrorist group. Please add Lithuania to "Designated as a terrorist group by" box.
Sources: https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1936307/lithuania-designates-russia-s-wagner-as-terrorist-organisation https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-734274 Iosif bidenavich ( talk) 10:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
This parameter in the infobox is crazily long, and extends the infobox far down into the article body. I think it might be best to just show the wars, and not every individual battle - or collapse the individual battles into dropdown lists, or delegate them to the offshoot articles like Wagner Group activities in Ukraine, etc. Thoughts? HappyWith ( talk) 14:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
The article has grown well beyond the guidance at WP:SIZERULE. My suggestion would be to move the long Operations section to its own article, and leave an overview here. ( Hohum @) 13:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Is the Wagner group made up of only ethnic slavic people? Why call it the wagner group when putin is calling every ukrainian with a ancient slavic people symbol tattoo a nazi? 50.40.198.205 ( talk) 03:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Under "Organization/Recruitment and training" in the second to last paragraph: change the word "cadres" to "cadets". Explanation: the sentence is discussing recruiting practices of the Wagner Group and the phrase is referring to those new recruits, not a "small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession" (Wiktionary). Although Wiktionary also includes the military definition "the framework or skeleton upon which a new regiment is to be formed; the officers of a regiment forming the staff," the context does not seem to suggest that these inmates are being hired for their military skill. LargeMike ( talk) 23:18, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
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Please change 23 June, 2023 to On June 23, 2023, 47.156.12.29 ( talk) 17:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This should be distinct from Sanctions.
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Add to Wagner Group#Ukraine: Prisoners who returned to Russia went on to commit more crimes. Examples include Georgiy Siukayev, who stabbed a man with a developmental disability to death in his home town of Tskhinvali; Ivan Rossomakhin, who killed an 85-year-old pensioner; [3] and a 42-year-old mercenary who threateed two schoolgirls with weapons before raping one of them. [4] 93.72.49.123 ( talk) 11:55, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
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References
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Does it make sense to mention the recent Kosovo disruption with Wagner agent procedures among Serbs? Or at least suspected as per the world map graphic colour. https://prishtinainsight.com/wagner-group-symbols-seen-in-protesters-in-northern-kosovo/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/11/wagner-mercenaries-helping-serbia-prepare-potential-attack-nation/ 81.78.174.220 ( talk) 17:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
A Politico piece from this week cited research which found evidence that PMC Wagner has been recruiting on mainstream platforms like Twitter and Facebook https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-ukraine-war-mercenaries-wagner-group-recruit-twitter-facebook-yevgeny-prigozhin/ Billiardsdzonkha ( talk) 18:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
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@@ -15,7 +15,7 @@
| image = Logo of the Wagner Group (official).svg
| caption = Official logo of the Wagner Group<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.mk.ru/politics/2022/11/23/prigozhin-otpravil-evroparlamentu-kuvaldu-s-logotipom-chvk-vagnera-i-sledami-krovi.html|title=Пригожин отправил Европарламенту кувалду с логотипом ЧВК "Вагнера" и следами "крови"|website=www.mk.ru|date=23 November 2022 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://bloknot.ru/obshhestvo/uvazhayut-nashih-voinov-istorik-grigorov-o-vozvrashhenii-letchikov-antonova-i-nikishina-v-grobah-s-flagami-rf-i-chvk-vagner-1029595.html|title=Уважают наших воинов: историк Григоров о возвращении летчиков Антонова и Никишина в гробах с флагами РФ и ЧВК "Вагнер"|first=Кристина|last=Кирьянова|date=14 December 2022|website=Блокнот Россия}}</ref>
| ideology =
-| slogan = "Blood, Honor, Homeland, Courage" ({{lang-ru|Кровь, честь, родина, отвага}}) <!-- Motto from the logo -->
+| slogan = "Blood, Honor, Homeland, Courage" ({{lang-ru|Кровь, Честь, Родина, Отвага}}) <!-- Motto from the logo -->
| groups =
| headquarters = PMC Wagner Center, [[Saint Petersburg]], Russia
| area =
37.99.39.44 ( talk) 20:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
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Change Russian Armed Forces from ally of Wagner Group to enemy 2600:1702:2020:4730:B831:D825:EFDD:2F9F ( talk) 00:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Paper9oll (
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📝) 07:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)This page refers to a Mutiny. This is incorrect, Wagner PMC was not part of the Russian Military, so it not rebelling against it generals. It is a separate organisation, fighting against the government, as an act of rebellion. The idea of rebellion vs Mutiny was discussed at length here - and the discussion was closed, with the decision that it is a *rebellion* and Mutiny is the incorrect term.
Deathlibrarian ( talk) 11:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Is there a source for the slogan? Smeagol 17 ( talk) 08:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
After today, "Russian Armed Forces" needs to be listed as both an ally and an opponent. Very Russian. Dubbs01 ( talk) 01:29, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
The about the groups ideology stemming from the far-right really shows the bias of Wikipedia. They could actually be far-left, have you interviewed the group? The inclusion of that is not based in fact but conjecture. 24.154.203.238 ( talk) 18:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source that talks about the position or what they think of the pro-Russian separatists or the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics in reference to the Wagner rebellion? Is this because Wagner's troops mostly abandoned separatist-controlled territory, more specifically the Lugansk People's Republic, or is it that the separatist forces simply fell into utter military irrelevance? LLs ( talk) 05:02, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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LPR isn't linked anywhere before it's used under "Ukraine", and should be linked to Luhansk People's Republic to define what it means Gisforgirard ( talk) 23:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
There’s not much in this article about Wagner’s use of prisoner recruitment and the special arrangement they have with the convicts. There’s a lot of information out there, so I think we could add this. I don’t have time right now, but if anyone else wants to help expand that material, that’d be welcomed. HappyWith ( talk) 21:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
After the attempted coup, the RAF should be classified as enemies StovlessStove ( talk) 17:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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France declared Wagner a terrorist as well (source : https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/16/textes/l16t0111_texte-adopte-seance) Tonalisme ( talk) 22:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
This was reported by the Associated Press:
Did this happen? The word "camp" or "camps" isn't mentioned in the current version of this Wikipedia article. Or would this issue be covered in another related Wikipedia article? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 13:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Oh, here it is: Wagner Group rebellion. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 13:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
The leader of the RVC, Denis Kapustin actively praised the Wagner group rebellion and requested to join the uprising. This has been cited numerous times in the Wagner Group rebellion page. Now, in spite of all of that, how in the heck are they still listed as "opponents"? AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer ( talk) 10:12, 26 June 2023 (EST)
Hey, so, the line "and the Wagner fighters were to sign contracts with the Russian Defense Ministry." line does not seem to make sense with the overall context of the mutiny. While it has yet to be added to this page, we know there was friction between Prigozhin and the PoD in regards to such contracts (See <ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref> for a pre-mutiny source, while <ref>{{Cite news |last1=Barnes |first1=Julian |last2=Gibbons-Neff |first2=Thomas |date=25 June 2023 |title=With Wagner’s Future in Doubt, Ukraine Could Capitalize on Chaos |language=en |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/us/politics/wagner-future-ukraine-war.html |url-status=live |access-date=26 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230626004944/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/us/politics/wagner-future-ukraine-war.html |archive-date=26 June 2023}}</ref> for a post-mutiny source. This latter source seems to go into more detail than the currently cited CNN for the line, however: it says "Wagner troops who did not participate in the revolt would be allowed to sign contracts with the Defense Ministry." AP News frames it as "The government also said it would not prosecute Wagner fighters who took part, while those who did not join in were to be offered contracts by the Defense Ministry." (<ref>{{Cite news |date=25 June 2023 |title=Russian mercenary group revolt against Moscow fizzles but exposes vulnerabilities |language=en |work=[[Associated Presss]] |url=https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-wagner-prigozhin-9acbdf1eda849692ca0423a4116058d1 |url-status=live |access-date=26 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230626054415/https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-wagner-prigozhin-9acbdf1eda849692ca0423a4116058d1 |archive-date=26 June 2023}}</ref>)
So it looks like the CNN article being cited made a bit too firm of a statement with "will sign contracts". Would anyone who can edit this page please correct it so it is less firmly stated in this article? Editoronthewiki ( talk) 15:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Much like I did on the rebellion talk page, I have a recent moment (and citation for it) I think should be reflected in text: <ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref> Russia was pushing for Wagner to sign a contract to become part of its military hierarchy, much to the anger of Prigozhin. At this time, I cannot edit the page due to the lockdown, but I think this could help anyone who can Editoronthewiki ( talk) 00:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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Change "de facto private army of Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman formerly with close ties to Russian President" to "de facto private army of Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman who formerly had close ties to Russian President".
As it is currently, the reference of this sentence is unclear because of a structural ambiguity; i.e. is Prigozhin formerly a businessman, or formerly somebody with close ties to the president? Worded in the way I have suggested, the ambiguity is resolved and it is made clear that Prigozhin formerly had ties to the president, but is (presumably) still a businessman. PoopyL ( talk) 16:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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Jonesey95 (
talk) 16:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)No comments Western countries allow Wanger froup refuged in their Coutries to join NATO Army. But denied Civilian Refuges like Syria Ukaine or Afganistan. 2001:FB1:18C:545D:785B:73BB:8A1E:9330 ( talk) 18:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
the Russian armed forces shall be removed from the allies and added to the opponents section because Wagner has revolted against the Russian army WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 14:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
the headquarters shall be changed to Belarus because the Wagner Group has been expelled from Russia and it has also been banned in Russia. The Belarusian government is constructing a large military base to house wagnerites inside belarus. WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 14:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Should be changed to past tense now: [95] 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:FE1B ( talk) 16:10, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The Telegraph is reporting that Wagner seems to be recruiting from Gurkha soldiers (previously trained in the Nepali Army) after India has tightened its rules on Nepalese soldiers in its military. Not sure where this should be included in the article, but seems noteworthy. GnocchiFan ( talk) 11:07, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
After the Wagner group rebellion, shouldn't the Armed forces of Ukraine be on their Allies' section and the Russian armed forces on the Opponents section? I don't know whether to change this or not because there might have been something I've missed.
As has been discussed here, I think it would be a good idea to summarize Wagner Group activities in Africa in an article of that name, bringing together content currently independently sub-sectioned under this article about; Sudan, Central African Republic, Madagascar, Libya, Mozambique, Mali, Chad and Burkina Faso.
Additionally, the content under the Deaths of journalists section could be moved under the activities in those respective countries section.
Opening the discussion, please contribute. -- Jabbi ( talk) 21:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
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217.33.144.227 ( talk) 19:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
FERIAKRIM 19/05/95
Are there any indications of the equipment available to them? Do they have drones, tanks, helicopters, ...? Jan olieslagers ( talk) 19:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
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217.33.144.227 ( talk) 21:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
Feri akrim 19/05/95 [sy121897b]
Second sentence reads:
The group operates beyond the law in Russia, where private military companies are officially forbidden.
It is a notable fact that Russian law fordbids PMCs and that this means that Wagner Group's status in Russia is in a grey area. Academics and journalists have pointed out that this gives Putin arbitrary power to get rid of unwanted agents or look the other way as he sees fit.
Problem is, it is unclear what is meant by "operating beyond the law in Russia", for one thing Wagner Groups apparently doesn't officially exist as an entity. Another thing is, what does that phrase mean exactly, that Wagner Group activities are illegal in Russia by default? I'm not sure the sources support that. And finally, does this belong in the lead? Wagner Group mostly seems to operate in other countries. (Which also raises the question if they operate "beyond the law" there.) Jabbi ( talk) 23:58, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
What is it? No mention about the stories the article subject is most known for?
https://dossier.center/kuvalda/ The Dossier Center found out the names of thugs from PMCs who tortured, killed and dismembered a Syrian in 2017 (rus)
Murder of Yevgeny Nuzhin there is even an article on this and it is only mentioned in "See also"? Manyareasexpert ( talk) 21:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Utkin seems quite likely to be a mere figurehead, this seems all but confirmed by this Bellingcat report.
Statements about Utkin should be careful:
The group was founded in 2014 by former GRU officer Dmitry Utkin and businessman Yevgeny Prigozhin.
This is the first sentence of second paragraph of lead.
He should be much less prominent than he is. He's not been seen publicly for years, unlike Prigozhin... -- Jabbi ( talk) Jabbi ( talk) 13:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
2014 marked the end of Slavonic Corps as such, but a part of the group morphed again. That same year, Lt. Col. of the Reserves Dmitrii Utkin – a man who claims both to have earlier worked on anti-piracy for the long-lived shipping Moran Security Group, and to have been in Syria with the Slavonic Corps for the infamous trouble – popped up in the Donbas in eastern Ukraine as the commander of a new organization, the Wagner Group
PCM Wagner used to redirect to this article but it no longer does. H44dyss9900 ( talk) 09:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
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Change “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Sudan and Madagascar” to “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Venezuela and Madagascar”
Reason: Sudan is listed twice atm. Venezuela is included in the Activities section but is missing from the list of eleven countries. Lhollo ( talk) 15:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
According to Foreign Policy [102] and Bellingcat [103] sources in the body of the article, Utkin was one of the earlier commanders, employed to run the group, while Prigozhin (by his own admission [104]) is the real founder, owner and funder of the group. Mhorg ( talk) 15:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
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Yevgeny Prigozhin is dead 2601:47:4300:B120:E05F:A1DD:B71C:F8C ( talk) 17:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wagner group leader, Prigozhin killed in Moscow plane crash today so you should put him as (2014-2023) [105] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin on passenger list of plane that crashed HuntersHistory ( talk) 18:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
As a close official with the US Military, I can now confirm that he has died. 2601:47:4300:B120:8C53:1F1C:8F80:8FDF ( talk) 20:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash and Russia and Russia said so it should you should put (2014-2023) next to his name see reasons in talk. HuntersHistory ( talk) 18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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Incorrect spelling. Change "dessert" to "desert" in the section "Recruitment, training, techniques." The text snippet to change is "fighters who retreat or dessert" Hifear267 ( talk) 02:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
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Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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In ‘Activities’: Change ‘ten countries’ to ‘eleven countries’ and then add ‘Venezuela’ to the list of countries that follows. Reason: Venezuela is highlighted in red on the map, showing Wagner group as active there, and there is a section about it further down in this same ‘Activities’ section, so this edit is needed for consistency. Lhollo ( talk) 00:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
The description says that the Wagner Group "is not ideologically driven." This is a highly questionable claim; they clearly do have ideological tendencies, and just because they don't overtly say they have an ideology doesn't mean they aren't driven by underlying beliefs or motives. So this phrasing seems incorrect and confusing. Maybe writing "While the group is not explicitly driven by a single ideology" would be more appropriate. LouMichel ( talk) 00:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Last sentence of first paragraph of lede reads:
Why is is important? There is a section discussing these links to far right extremism. PMCs are by their very nature far right - its market directed violence. Take a look at Blackwater, what are the chances that the mercenaries convicted for murdering Iraqi civilians voted for Bernie Sanders. Right?
My point is, there is nothing ideological about Wagner. If a subset of mercenaries have far-right convictions that does not really tell us anything. The wording of the sentence conveys this "elements of". Well elements of nearly anything are linked to far-right extremism these days....
It's a remarkably clumsy sentence, apologetic from the start. Should be removed from lede. Jabbi ( talk) 02:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
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In lede: On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia should be changed to On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were killed in a plane crash in Russia or similar now that the aircraft's Aug 23 passenger list have all been confirmed dead. VronaMrk30 ( talk) 21:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
This article references the plane crash that presumably killed Prigozhin and Utkin (details still developing). There is a wikipedia article on this, 2023 Tver plane crash. I propose that it is linked within this article.
The last sentence of the leader/header currently states "On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia, leaving Wagner's leadership structure unclear. It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military." That would be a good place to link it. I can not directly edit the page. If editors with editing rights agree, please do so. LWu22 ( talk) 20:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-be-declared-terrorist-organization-by-uk-bbc-2023-09-06/ 2A02:3030:817:5622:1:0:436E:368F ( talk) 20:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
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Please add "United Kingdom" as a designated terrorist group, per source via https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/06/europe/russia-wagner-group-terrorist-organization-uk-intl/index.html 112.205.176.179 ( talk) 04:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Should be mentioned somewhere in the article that they are going back https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-russia-ukraine-putin-progozhin-1828052 Napalm Guy ( talk) 22:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
it says "being lead" where it should be "being led" BennyBoy36 ( talk) 18:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Here’s an source [107] suggesting deep connections between Wagner Group activities and Rodnovery beliefs and practices, a link which goes beyond merely the fact that members of Wagner (as with certain divisions in the regular Russian military) are disproportionately Rodnovers.
Apparently, the group’s trademark use of sledgehammers for torture and execution is a nod to the use of hammer symbols in various pagan myths (e.g., Mjolnir); Prigozhin himself reportedly acknowledged this connection while he was alive. Senior figures in the Russian Orthodox Church have denounced him and other Wagner leaders as pagans. Wagner also reportedly founded an ideological division in 2019 whose primary focus was promoting Rodnovery. The source I linked does take care to mention that there are plenty of Slavic neopagans, particularly outside of Russia, who oppose Wagner’s use of their faith’s symbolism. This article should certainly mention all of this; it’s not entirely accurate to describe Wagner as non-ideological. It’d be better to say that to the extent that Wagner Group had an ideology, it would have been Rodnover nationalism. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:77FB ( talk) 02:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
I believe the image description of the image portraying Sergei Shoigu should use past tense, as it refers to the deceased Prigozhin. Emlythk ( talk) 20:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Why is IDF listed as opponent? No source is given for this. Genabab ( talk) 15:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
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Please replace File:Wagner armed rebellion vehicle marking Z.png with File:Wagner armed rebellion vehicle marking Z.svg Rainbowlack ( talk) 22:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Note that this article is about a different topic than the article that was deleted by the same name in the AfD. Ethanbas ( talk) 06:01, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I removed the allies / opponents parts of the infobox because it should be clear as day that mercenary groups are not subject to such concepts since they are paid to support or oppose whomever their employer tells them to. Likewise, if they really are a PMC, we are using the wrong infobox since they are not a "faction" in the war, just contractors for one of the real factions. The articles other PMC groups for example use the company-type infobox instead. Eik Corell ( talk) 02:04, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
I was a bit puzzled by the edit summary of this edit Axxxion. Is their a reason why a Russian intelligence service would help a Ukrainian intelligence service that I have missed? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:47, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
P,S. Talking of WSJ, in terms of its location on the political spectrum: it is an American analogue of Russian Zavtra newspaper. Axxxion ( talk) 22:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
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Please change the first sentence of the first subsection The founder of the company is alleged to be Dmitriy Valeryevich Utkin, who was born in Kirovohrad Oblast (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic of the USSR) in 1970., which in its current form is not in line with WP:ALLEGED, to Its been stated that the founder of the company is Dmitriy Valeryevich Utkin... (etc). This would present his founder status not as fact for the sake of compromise, taking into account a fellow editor's insistence not to present anything about the group as fact, but still keeping the sentence within WP guidelines. Thank you. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
edit protected}}
template. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 07:14, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
″Kelly also said that one of President Donald Trump's biggest frustrations is with the media, suggesting that reporters should "develop some better sources." One of his frustrations is you, all of you, not all of you, but many of you," Kelly said in response to a question about Trump's frustrations.″ [2]. Axxxion ( talk) 22:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Список Вагнера -- methinks, we do not have it in the article, at least in the original form. It provides further allegations (strictly anecdotal) that seem to give an update to recent developments in this ″pmc″. Interestingly, they appear to partially contradict the recent public allegations by SBU. Axxxion ( talk) 18:48, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I think the way the article is now is good. Call the organization "Wagner Group", but mention different points of view. Just be careful not to cite sources that are too far out there. Ethanbas ( talk) 16:29, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Note that the Daily Mail, per community decision, is not considered a reliable source, and the corresponding paragraph must be removed from the article.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 14:59, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Axxxion I would please ask that you do not do massive reverts of my edits like you just did. Now, lets see what the problem is. First, you asked what the source is for OSM. The source is right there, citing the sentence. The Wall Street Journal clearly states their formal name is OSM. However, for the sake of compromise I have changed the wording so OSM is simply stated to be one of the other names of the company. Now, can you please list all of the other problems or objections that you have here on the talk page and we can go through them together one by one and find compromise solutions for each of them. Thank you in advance! EkoGraf ( talk) 19:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Was just passing by, could not help mentioning a problem: do some fact check, folks, before posting as 'trusted' and read the bloody material u are referring to. censor.net is a known fake generator (googleable) and news editor; the article on the 'russian news site' which i read thru was a pile of noodles, pardon my language - not a single reference there, not a single name, just a school level composition with 1 pic from the web that I could generate like in 15 min without too much effort.
'Neutrality' is also a concept long forgotten - a bunch of allegations is narrated in a 'factual' manner hiding behind the word 'reportedly' - despite that most if not all of those reports come from either a mouthpiece of Ukrainan (usurper) rejime propaganda, or from their secret service, or from Russian highly-biased (and highly-inadequate as often) antiestablishment 'outlets' (like Alex Jones but of a much poorer quality), and the source in those 'reports' is often "they say" or "they ascribe". Im scared to think the rest of wiki is as biased.. Whats the problem? Is it poor skills in Russian? Aint there any native speaking volunteers? Or just lazy? But "they say" doesnot become something bigger just for being printed in The Times. Good luck ye all and thnx anyway for the effort to brindg knowledge 2 people & keep this dying horse arun)))))
176.127.119.118 (
talk) 17:52, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
The guy at the center of the troll factory. Quite a few sources now making the connection Legacypac ( talk) 05:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I notice "Wagner" is italicized throughout the article, which stood out to me as something I haven't seen before in articles about groups. I see this has been the case since the article's beginning. Is this necessary; am I missing something? Just wanted to ask before I bother going in to change it all. Any input would be appreciated, thanks. Jessicapierce ( talk) 17:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I managed to read through the lead and first section of this article, and here are a few things that I'd like to point out:
'History, organization, status' section
The article looks fine overall, and might even qualify as a GA candidate. But some issues, mainly the unattributed weasel words, need to be dealt with first. Nice work. Fitzcarmalan ( talk) 21:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
The details about casualties, in Khryashchevatoe village and Luhansk Airport particulary, are stated on 18th image presented by SBU. We may replace it by a total number of 15 dead which are stated for Luhansk August-2014 battles in general: Участие в штурме аэропорта "Луганск" и сбивании Ил-76 принимали участие 72 боевика, из них потери 200-ми 15 человек. -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 20:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
EkoGraf, can you clarify what is the source for the claim you've added:
The Ukrainian SBU claimed the Wagner Group had lost 102 PMCs
Thanks, -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 21:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
EkoGraf, can you provide the context for your question? I thought we've cleared the matter, was there a new source with same mistake? -- VoidWanderer ( talk) 16:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Fitzcarmalan, as stated in a previous discussion and in the article itself, most sources agree they are actually an extension of the Russian MoD/GRU, leaving Wagner Group only a private company in name. EkoGraf ( talk) 09:44, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Berkan~svwiki, please discuss the issue and do not remove sourced information. Reuters is considered a highly reliable/verifiable source by Wikipedia and edits based on our personal feelings about what they are reporting are considered POV edits which are not permitted per Wiki policy. Sources for the assertions have been properly attributed, as per Wiki policy. As Vif12vf has also said, consensus is required for the kind of changes you are requesting. In addition, the usage of the wording such as "alleged" is generally not used as per Wiki policy as well. EkoGraf ( talk) 23:48, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
EkoGraf, no properly sourced information has been removed. What was removed was self-contradictory POV derived from the Reuters item which indeed gave conflicting information originally. If basing a new section on an article that states nothing more specific than that between 2 and 400 military contractors may have arrived in Venezuela between 2018 and 2019, then it can not be reasonable to simply pick one of those possibilities that you prefer and write it as if either is conclusively supported in the source itself. Regarding the "42 people were killed during the protests.[234]", it is completely non-sequitur to the context (which protests?), and refers to both a limited scope of the time period alluded to and is an ongoing event but reads as if it were historical. You are very welcome to improve on these changes, but rolling them back to the unencyclopedic form it was in before the edit is entirely counterproductive. Thank you for pointing out the word "alleged" is not suitable, but unless you can improve on the quality I see no justification for rolling this back. Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:36, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
EkoGraf, please read the material in question if you want to vet it. One contradiction: "Yevgeny Shabayev, leader of a local chapter of a paramilitary group of Cossacks with ties to Russian military contractors, said he had heard the number of Russian contractors in Venezuela may be about 400." ("Shabayev") "“They did not arrive in a big crowd,” he said." (Third source). Second contradiction: "He said they set off in two chartered aircraft for Havana, Cuba, from where they transferred onto regular commercial flights to Venezuela." "A Russian Ilyushin-96 flew into Havana late on Wednesday after starting its journey in Moscow and flying via Senegal and Paraguay, the data showed." How are you denying that these are self-contradictory and incomplete data being used to assert two different conclusions - one being that there is a small contingent and the other being that there is a large contingent? Berkan~svwiki ( talk) 00:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Is it me, or is this section somewhat poorly written and confusing? The mention of a cossack paramilitary chapter under Venezuela being open to misinterpretation, and the chronology seeming unclear. Can't help but notice that all other operations are supported by several citations as well. I hesitate to address this considering the recent edit history. 103.77.235.67 ( talk) 15:21, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
The article currently reads, in places, like a blow by blow description of a prize fight. The key to an encyclopedia is summarize. Also editors should note that the Wikipedia is not news. Every fighter's death in Tripoli may be news, but it is not encyclopedic. Remember every sentence must have a point that contributes to the understanding of the topic. You don't have to discard reliable sources, but an editor needs to consolidate information and present it in an informative way. A chronological hodge-podge seldom does that. Please consider rewriting such portions of this article that are overly detailed; otherwise other editors may not be as considerate as you can be when they make this article conform to Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Good luck. -- Bejnar ( talk) 02:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
user:suwa 17:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
I am not an active editor on this page, but I think that it would be a good idea to split off the article's current history section into a sub-article, termed "History of the Wagner Group" or "Operations of the Wagner Group". In this way, we can preserve the great details of the article, while preventing bloating. Applodion ( talk) 12:26, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
The allegations into the group of war crimes and extrajudicial killings must be made in separate paragraph instead of being mentioned there and there.-- 101.100.146.39 ( talk) 00:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Right now the bottom link in the infobox links to a dab. This is not really acceptable; we must either disambiguate or delink.-- Ymblanter ( talk) 16:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The difference between the Akademi and the Wagner Group Wikipedia articles is stupefying. Both are private military contractors, both have done work for their governments, both compete for international security contracts and both have been employed by their country's intelligence services (CIA and the FSB/GRU). Yet the articles about the two are worlds apart, with Wagner Group being labelled as a paramilitary force of the Russian military and Akademi as a legitimately independent private company.
In my opinion the article about Akademi is fairer and less POV. Wagner Group's article should be structured like it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HadesTheEldest ( talk • contribs) 15:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Proven wrong by cnn (see latest on www.cnn.com) due to the subject's nature, only add credible ""NEWS"" sources and high ranking websites instead of "Internet Blogs", any attempt to Undo this revert shall have to take a look at the stated facts and represent them in a more objective fashion as well as remove some of the adjectives, also, use at least 3 NEWS citations per line (BBC...) due to the interest on the subject. visit the talk page.
The adjectives in this report are almost
Putn wants to win but not at any cost?
Shadows?
It seems like a combo between a bad theory, audience-pleasure political rant and crapfest, it should tune down
If you want to bring back the information:
state the event, very shortly
have more citations than necessary
glance around the whole finished article and remove anything that can be removed
There is something called "wrong" and there is sabotage that is very well made to hide stuff from users without alerting others, mind such sabotage.
The Radio Liberty writes: "As for the Russian mercenaries from PMC Wagner, a day after the publication, Radio Liberty still does not have any independent confirmation of the fact of their presence in the self-proclaimed republic [of NKR]." [16] 46.72.61.105 ( talk) 13:16, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
I have removed File:Wagner Group.png because of concerns about its provenance. The source is a forum post at a role playing community. Accordingly, the origins of the image are rightfully questioned.
If anybody can trace the image to another source, please list that source here, so we can review. — C.Fred ( talk) 18:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
How notable is the tablet seen by the BBC? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/8iaz6xit26/the-lost-tablet-and-the-secret-documents
Hcobb ( talk) 12:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
This article states he was born in Ukrainian SSR, but his own states he was born in Asbest, RSFSR. Both sources are not the best, frankly speaking. But the first one is worse, as far as I can tell. Smeagol 17 ( talk) 20:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
@ EkoGraf: Should this section be here because of "German Parliament member Patrick Sensburg theorizing"? Or is there more? Smeagol 17 ( talk) 11:41, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 348#The @Suriyak Twitter account for occupation of various locations on the Syrian Civil War situation map and obviously WP:TWITTER. FDW777 ( talk) 08:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:07, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) NW1223 <Howl at me• My hunts> 02:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Wagner Group → PMC Liga – According to several Russian and Western sources, the company has rebranded to Liga [17] [18] [19]. Pious Brother ( talk) 01:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of the Rusich (also known as Task Force Rusich), a neo-Nazi-oriented subgroup of the Wagner Group. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 23:54, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Kolovrat is not a "slavic swastika" and should not be named as that because it implies thst It's a nazi or neo-nazi simbol while It's not. It may be used by some neo nazis but that is not enough to clasify it as that, because the kolovrar is an ancient symbols used by many groups. The same as an swastika in India is not a nazi simbol but in the western world it is... 31.223.150.97 ( talk) 11:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:51, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
If this group is Neo-Nazi in orientation, why not include that term in the article's text? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 02:17, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
"Links to far right" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/russian-mercenaries-in-ukraine-linked-to-far-right-extremists "neo-Nazi Russian mercenaries" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rusichs-neo-nazi-mercenaries-head-for-kharkiv-prjndp9rl, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/08/russia-send-notorious-neo-nazi-mercenaries-ukraine/, https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-terrifying-neo-nazi-mercenaries-being-deployed-in-ukraine, https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1592997/Ukraine-news-band-neo-nazi-mercenaries-rusich-wagner-russia-update "Neo-Nazi Russian Attack Unit" https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagners-rusich-neo-nazi-attack-unit-hints-its-going-back-into-ukraine-undercover We might also be able to use this https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/putin-nazi-pretext-russia-war-ukraine-belied-white-supremacy-ties-rcna23043
I gave up at this point, as this is enough for us to say they are Neo-nazi. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
One more time. There's five sources given (right now, easily can find more but don't want to ref bomb) which link THE ENTIRE organization to neo-Nazism and white supremacy. Can we please drop this "it's only a few bad apples within it" nonsense? I mean, ffs, their leader (decorated by Putin) is covered in Nazi tattoos, in their own promotional videos they talk about how they're "the saviors of the white race" (intermixed with footage of themselves proudly torturing and decapitating captives) and there's literally dozens of sources which confirm it. This is beyond absurd at this point. Volunteer Marek 09:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Wagner is led by Dmitry Utkin, a former head of Russia’s foreign military intelligence agency. Utkin is believed be a Nazi sympathizer and may have named the group after the German composer Richard Wagner, whose work Adolf Hitler revered. [43]
Even the very first source (still in the article) I looked at says:
Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism.
-->
[44]
but
Shankargb removed it
[45] and you
EkoGraf removed the Neo-Nazi cat. -->
[46] I believe that’s not how it works around here. I would appreciate if you both self reverted your removals and dispute the source first. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁 00:32, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
@
GizzyCatBella: You are citing Foreign Policy,
[52] and it writes: The propaganda campaign has extolled the Wagner Group as hunting neo-Nazis and extremists. Yet the group’s own ties to the Russian far-right are well documented: The likely founder of the group has the logo of the Nazi Schutzstaffel tattooed on his neck. Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism.
Foreign Policy is saying that Wagner Group is propagated to be fighting "neo-Nazis and extremists" but "the group's own ties to the Russian far-right" are documented and then it presents the sentence that we are using. It is categorizing "neo-Nazis and "far-right extremism" under the broader of "far-right".
You have missed that I cited ABC and The Guardian to support my argument above. The Guardian say Wagner is "almost certainly connected with extreme far-right organisations
"
[53] while ABC says "sympathies to far-right groups [and] there's probably some in the general recruitment that also have those sympathies, predominantly, it's not an ideological group.
"
[54]
This shows that we can't state "Various elements of Wagner have also been linked to Neo-Nazis and far-right extremists" in Wikivoice because The Guardian says the connection almost certain, not wholly evident while ABC say that the connection is not relevant because its not exactly ideological group.
A proper representation of these sources would be: "While the group itself isn't ideologically driven, various elements group have been linked to far-right extremists."
You can see how all these sources, who are making connection with anything "Neo-Nazi", are basing their claim over the name "Wagner" to have taken from the " Richard Wagner" the favorite musician of Nazi Adolf Hitler and the "recently" appeared picture of "likely founder" or "alleged founder" Dimitry Utkin having SS "tattoo".
But
Foreign Policy publication itself did a good research last year, showing that the name "Wagner" has no origin and is likely a "convenient cliche
" and the article further noted that Dmitry Utkin hasn't been seen since 2016. Furthermore, Foreign Policy also described how "most likely is no Wagner Group.
"
[55]
"Parsing facts from the mythology that has developed around the Wagner Group gets particularly messy on this issue. “We don’t really know where this name comes from,” Sukhankin said. “In many ways this is a convenient cliche.”
The name Wagner is reported to have been the nom de guerre of one of the group’s early commanders in the fighting in eastern Ukraine, Dmitry Utkin, a former lieutenant colonel in the Russian military intelligence service, the GRU. Utkin is alleged to have been enamored with Nazi Germany, including Adolf Hitler’s favorite composer, Richard Wagner. In 2016, Utkin was pictured at a ceremony in the Kremlin intended to honor the courage of military personnel and civilians, but he hasn’t been seen in public since.
The mythology around Wagner appears to be something Prigozhin is keen to indulge. He is reported to have funded three feature-length action movies about the group’s operatives in Libya and the Central African Republic. The film Tourist, which had its premiere in the latter country’s capital, Bangui, earlier this year, offers a heroic portrayal of a group of Russian military advisors dispatched to the country to fight back violent rebel groups." [56]
After taking this important information into account, I really don't think we should be basing our understanding on the views disputed or refuted by the better experts. Shankargb ( talk) 03:00, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
As discussed above, and agreed by several users "Neo-Nazism" should be taken out of the lead as it is already covered by "far-right extremism" and 2nd paragraph is better for the sentence. Though I have added that Wagner is not ideologically driven per ABC.
Another theory is that "Wagner group" name came from Utkin's enthusiasm for the helicopter scene from 1979 Hollywood movie Apocalypse Now. [57] [58] I added this to article's body.
In 2018, Utkin was reported to be a " Rodnover" by multiple sources based on the accounts provided by members of Wagner group [59] [60] and it seems that it was easy to confuse his Slavic Native Faith with Nazism in the later articles because both have some similar symbols. I am also sure that the confusion was accidental because at least 9/10 people in the western world would be aware of Nazism but not even 1/50 would be aware of " Rodnovery", the actual belief of Utkin. We should also remember that Foreign Policy, [61] National World, [62] and others reported that Utkin hasn't been seen since 2016. I am saying this because no new evidence could have propped between 2018 - 2022 that could influence already developed understanding about Utkin because he hasn't been seen since 2016. I have added about Utkin being a Rodnover on article body since this is important.
I expect this sums up the issue. Shankargb ( talk) 15:46, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Wagner exactly once" but 3 times on this single page alone. You are wrong if you are thinking that your misrepresentation of sources would be overlooked because of the personal attacks you are making. You need to stop throwing strawman to prove your argument instead of commenting on the specifics pointed above in a very polite manner compared to your frequent violation of WP:NPA. I understand your frustration because you are being a WP:1AM who reverted Ekograf, [67] [68] IP, [69] LordLyoko, [70] me, [71] Shankargb, [72] and anyone who gets in the way of your POV pushing. If strawman, personal attacks and edit warring is what you want to engage in then you should WP:DROPTHESTICK. Srijanx22 ( talk) 06:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
There is absolutely no consensus to add "Neo-Nazism" on the leadwhat you mean is that you and Shankargb are willing to edit war and ignore more than a half a dozen sources to keep it out of the lede per some kind of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. There's at least 8 reliable sources which say so!!! How can you just blatantly ignore and violate Wikipedia policy like that? Cuz you can tag team to bully your way through on this article?
What has been argued above that is already covered under "Far-right extremism"One more time - WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - no, "far right extremism" and "neo Nazism" are NOT the same thing. One is a subset of the other. IF we were forced to choose between the two (we aren't, since sources use both) we would go with "neo Nazism" as it's more specific. This has ALREADY been explained and the response from you and Shankargb has been basically "I don't care I do what I want!"
Though I see a number of statements above that the allegation that the founder is sympathizer of Neo-nazism (not nazi himself) are misconstruedWait what????? You're actually saying there are sources which deny the fact that the guy covered in swastika and SS tattoos is "not a nazi himself" (fucking seriously?) or that he is not a "sympathizer of neo-Nazism"? Which sources are these? List them right here. Or stop making obviously and egregiously false claims.
There is still no source which say Wagner is a Neo-Nazi groupCompletely and utterly false!!! Have you even bothered to look at the sources you're edit warring to remove? The very first one. The first one. The one at the beginning. The one that you should look at first. Says: " Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism." Which is precisely what the agreed upon text - that you and Shankargb keep removing - says. Third source also says it. Fourth source says it. And so on. How in the world am I suppose to have a constructive conversation with someone who will just sit there and make complete false claims?
SEVEN other sources", I quote the relevant part here: "Yet the group’s own ties to the Russian far-right are well documented" [73], "a former Russian soldier adorned with Nazi tattoos" [74], "Wagner mercenaries are reported to have left behind neo-Nazi propaganda" [75] (opinion piece), "the far-right ideology traces within the Wagner group can be traced with their use of specific symbols", [76] "Wagner mercenaries have reportedly left behind neo-Nazi propaganda in the conflict zones", [77](opinion piece by a student) "Dmitry Utkin, a mercenary with the Wagner Group, a private army financed by pro-Kremlin oligarchs, who bears Waffen-SS tattoos on his collarbone and chest, [78](opinion piece)
Coming to this late but can I just add my voice to what appears to be the view of the overwhelming majority of editors: that while there are good sources for neo-Nazi elements and neo-Nazi links, there is a lack of good sources for saying that the whole Group is neo-Nazi. We should accurately describe the elements and the links, but we cannot leap from that to a definitive blanket designation of the whole group. I also think VM is correct that "far-right" and "neo-Nazi" are not synonyms: the latter is a subset of the former. But where we have to choose one, we should use the more capacious term, as some sources emphasising "far right" don't mention neo-Nazi and therefore the more general term is far safer. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 14:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
..But I only removed the word "Neo-Nazism" because it is redundant as it is the same thing as "far-right extremism".--> [92] ,however, the source says
Various elements of the current Wagner Group have ties to neo-Nazis and far-right extremism[93].
Ukrainian MOD reports that Wagner is recruiting from Russian prisons with aims to recruit up to 10,000 personnel in two months. Recruitment has been conducted within the prison municipalities of Rostov, St. Petersburg, and Nizhny Novogrod. Recruits are said to be sent to a village near Molkino, Krasnodar Territory, a likely Wagner training facility.The contract is said to offer full amnesty for crimes committed following six months of service. Why isn't this mentioned in the article? 185.13.50.212 ( talk) 15:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
PMC, which I gather is short for private military company or private military contractor is not familiar to me. I think it ought to be spelled out or otherwise explained when it is first used in the article. LankyYankee ( talk) 11:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
It is also confusing, that in the lead the company is named as PMC Wagner and PMC defined as private military company but later in te text Wagner PMCs is used as the name of PMC Wagner's mercenaries though in the lead no any hint about the difference to PMC vs PMCs, and not mentioning the company as simply "Wagner". JSoos ( talk) 10:12, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Public recruitment in Russia: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/07/russias-private-military-contractor-wagner-comes-out-of-the-shadows-in-ukraine-war I just added a sentence on Yevgeny Prigozhin's page to that effect. Thelisteninghand ( talk) 21:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Wondering if the group is recruiting from there too... Lotje ( talk) 05:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
How comes that Ukraine isn't listed as opponent? 2A02:810A:D00:3B44:DCA:F82:9BC3:8175 ( talk) 08:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Recent Ryanverse books (Tom Clancy's legacy) include a company with a similar name. Same group? Will ( Talk - contribs) 00:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I’m not sure if this individual (who is a member of Task Force Rusich and is influential on Telegram) deserves a mention or not. He operates a Russian military vehicle with blatant Nazi symbols on it alongside the “Z”. It definitely undercuts Putin’s claim that the war is about “denazification”. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:AD07 ( talk) 03:11, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Logo of Wagner Group.
A grining menencing skull framed by the light-red crosshairs of a sniper rifle in a black background.
Padded by the group's name in the Latin and the Cyrillic script with a black background and a strong light-red outer border.
On the flag also followed by an outer black background color.
BoQsc ( talk) 11:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
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Could someone please add this to the article? Thank you! File:Emblem of the Rusich Group.jpg Vl2020 ( talk) 09:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
References
According to [94], Task Force Rusich’s Telegram channel has encouraged its members to commit war crimes, such as removing the limbs of still-living POWs and then falsely claiming they were already injured when they were captured, or simply killing them while in captivity. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:AFF0 ( talk) 02:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm excluding the claim made by a Newly created site, wartranslated.com about the size of Wagner Group, most sources agree on 6,000 to 8,000 men,this two sources are proven historically Reliable for WP policy. However the claim made by the url/site, previously mentioned is WP:EXTRAORDINARY, not need to consider. Mr.User200 ( talk) 02:53, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
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I would suggest that the "Size" in the infobox be increased to 20,000 per this BBC source which quotes the UK Ministry of Defence
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64050719 2A00:23C8:2D94:AC01:7E23:AE:3D39:E575 ( talk) 12:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
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While the Wagner Group itsel does not position itself as (January 11 2023) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.37.234.67 ( talk) 14:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
No mater if the claim is true pr not it should not be in the lead it should follow similar prosedure as the article for sparta battalion or the azov regiment 217.140.202.214 ( talk) 19:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
The infobox box says the founder is Prigozhin but, in the Origin section of the article, it says Utkin was the founder. GamerKlim9716 ( talk) 12:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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Request to add under the section Wagner Group#Activities
respectively. Also add link to Tourist (film) under the section Wagner Group#Awards and honors. 223.25.74.34 ( talk) 14:20, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
"The likely founder of the group has the logo of the Nazi Schutzstaffel tattooed on his neck."
I've searched for proof of this claim, but couldn't find anything substantial. The claim is often repeated in sourceless news publications, however. It is also absent on Yevgeny Prigozhin's wikipedia page.
Surely there's a better source available than a news magazine like Foreign Policy?
Additionally, I think the use of them as a source might have something to do with their very serious sounding name. News websites such as Fox News or Washington Post (whose parent owns Foreign Policy) are discouraged as sources. 205.185.107.25 ( talk) 16:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Could someone write an article about the activities of the Wagner group in Ukraine, as has already been done with Syria? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi ( talk) 21:23, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
The article should be renamed to Prigozhin Group for the following reasons:
RobiBuecheler ( talk) 01:03, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I suggest adding a nickname section to the information box as in sources Wagner commonly uses these to refer to themselves. I suggest adding:
• (The) Orchestra • Musicians • Wagnerians/Wagnerites
This would bring the page in-line with RU-Wikipedia as well. Coobadge1 ( talk) 09:02, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Is anyone working on Wagner Group activities in the Central African Republic or Wagner Group activities in Libya right now? Uwdwadafsainainawinfi ( talk) 09:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
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Wagner group 59.153.127.148 ( talk) 18:00, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
One of the former soldiers of the Afghan army 31.2.194.145 ( talk) 15:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
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Lithuania designates Wagner as a terrorist group. Please add Lithuania to "Designated as a terrorist group by" box.
Sources: https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1936307/lithuania-designates-russia-s-wagner-as-terrorist-organisation https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-734274 Iosif bidenavich ( talk) 10:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
This parameter in the infobox is crazily long, and extends the infobox far down into the article body. I think it might be best to just show the wars, and not every individual battle - or collapse the individual battles into dropdown lists, or delegate them to the offshoot articles like Wagner Group activities in Ukraine, etc. Thoughts? HappyWith ( talk) 14:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
The article has grown well beyond the guidance at WP:SIZERULE. My suggestion would be to move the long Operations section to its own article, and leave an overview here. ( Hohum @) 13:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Is the Wagner group made up of only ethnic slavic people? Why call it the wagner group when putin is calling every ukrainian with a ancient slavic people symbol tattoo a nazi? 50.40.198.205 ( talk) 03:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
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Under "Organization/Recruitment and training" in the second to last paragraph: change the word "cadres" to "cadets". Explanation: the sentence is discussing recruiting practices of the Wagner Group and the phrase is referring to those new recruits, not a "small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession" (Wiktionary). Although Wiktionary also includes the military definition "the framework or skeleton upon which a new regiment is to be formed; the officers of a regiment forming the staff," the context does not seem to suggest that these inmates are being hired for their military skill. LargeMike ( talk) 23:18, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
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Please change 23 June, 2023 to On June 23, 2023, 47.156.12.29 ( talk) 17:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This should be distinct from Sanctions.
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Add to Wagner Group#Ukraine: Prisoners who returned to Russia went on to commit more crimes. Examples include Georgiy Siukayev, who stabbed a man with a developmental disability to death in his home town of Tskhinvali; Ivan Rossomakhin, who killed an 85-year-old pensioner; [3] and a 42-year-old mercenary who threateed two schoolgirls with weapons before raping one of them. [4] 93.72.49.123 ( talk) 11:55, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
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Slatersteven (
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References
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Does it make sense to mention the recent Kosovo disruption with Wagner agent procedures among Serbs? Or at least suspected as per the world map graphic colour. https://prishtinainsight.com/wagner-group-symbols-seen-in-protesters-in-northern-kosovo/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/11/wagner-mercenaries-helping-serbia-prepare-potential-attack-nation/ 81.78.174.220 ( talk) 17:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
A Politico piece from this week cited research which found evidence that PMC Wagner has been recruiting on mainstream platforms like Twitter and Facebook https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-ukraine-war-mercenaries-wagner-group-recruit-twitter-facebook-yevgeny-prigozhin/ Billiardsdzonkha ( talk) 18:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
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@@ -15,7 +15,7 @@
| image = Logo of the Wagner Group (official).svg
| caption = Official logo of the Wagner Group<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.mk.ru/politics/2022/11/23/prigozhin-otpravil-evroparlamentu-kuvaldu-s-logotipom-chvk-vagnera-i-sledami-krovi.html|title=Пригожин отправил Европарламенту кувалду с логотипом ЧВК "Вагнера" и следами "крови"|website=www.mk.ru|date=23 November 2022 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url=https://bloknot.ru/obshhestvo/uvazhayut-nashih-voinov-istorik-grigorov-o-vozvrashhenii-letchikov-antonova-i-nikishina-v-grobah-s-flagami-rf-i-chvk-vagner-1029595.html|title=Уважают наших воинов: историк Григоров о возвращении летчиков Антонова и Никишина в гробах с флагами РФ и ЧВК "Вагнер"|first=Кристина|last=Кирьянова|date=14 December 2022|website=Блокнот Россия}}</ref>
| ideology =
-| slogan = "Blood, Honor, Homeland, Courage" ({{lang-ru|Кровь, честь, родина, отвага}}) <!-- Motto from the logo -->
+| slogan = "Blood, Honor, Homeland, Courage" ({{lang-ru|Кровь, Честь, Родина, Отвага}}) <!-- Motto from the logo -->
| groups =
| headquarters = PMC Wagner Center, [[Saint Petersburg]], Russia
| area =
37.99.39.44 ( talk) 20:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
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Change Russian Armed Forces from ally of Wagner Group to enemy 2600:1702:2020:4730:B831:D825:EFDD:2F9F ( talk) 00:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Paper9oll (
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📝) 07:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)This page refers to a Mutiny. This is incorrect, Wagner PMC was not part of the Russian Military, so it not rebelling against it generals. It is a separate organisation, fighting against the government, as an act of rebellion. The idea of rebellion vs Mutiny was discussed at length here - and the discussion was closed, with the decision that it is a *rebellion* and Mutiny is the incorrect term.
Deathlibrarian ( talk) 11:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Is there a source for the slogan? Smeagol 17 ( talk) 08:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
After today, "Russian Armed Forces" needs to be listed as both an ally and an opponent. Very Russian. Dubbs01 ( talk) 01:29, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
The about the groups ideology stemming from the far-right really shows the bias of Wikipedia. They could actually be far-left, have you interviewed the group? The inclusion of that is not based in fact but conjecture. 24.154.203.238 ( talk) 18:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source that talks about the position or what they think of the pro-Russian separatists or the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics in reference to the Wagner rebellion? Is this because Wagner's troops mostly abandoned separatist-controlled territory, more specifically the Lugansk People's Republic, or is it that the separatist forces simply fell into utter military irrelevance? LLs ( talk) 05:02, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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LPR isn't linked anywhere before it's used under "Ukraine", and should be linked to Luhansk People's Republic to define what it means Gisforgirard ( talk) 23:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
There’s not much in this article about Wagner’s use of prisoner recruitment and the special arrangement they have with the convicts. There’s a lot of information out there, so I think we could add this. I don’t have time right now, but if anyone else wants to help expand that material, that’d be welcomed. HappyWith ( talk) 21:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
After the attempted coup, the RAF should be classified as enemies StovlessStove ( talk) 17:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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France declared Wagner a terrorist as well (source : https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/16/textes/l16t0111_texte-adopte-seance) Tonalisme ( talk) 22:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
This was reported by the Associated Press:
Did this happen? The word "camp" or "camps" isn't mentioned in the current version of this Wikipedia article. Or would this issue be covered in another related Wikipedia article? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 13:29, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Oh, here it is: Wagner Group rebellion. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 13:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
The leader of the RVC, Denis Kapustin actively praised the Wagner group rebellion and requested to join the uprising. This has been cited numerous times in the Wagner Group rebellion page. Now, in spite of all of that, how in the heck are they still listed as "opponents"? AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer ( talk) 10:12, 26 June 2023 (EST)
Hey, so, the line "and the Wagner fighters were to sign contracts with the Russian Defense Ministry." line does not seem to make sense with the overall context of the mutiny. While it has yet to be added to this page, we know there was friction between Prigozhin and the PoD in regards to such contracts (See <ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref> for a pre-mutiny source, while <ref>{{Cite news |last1=Barnes |first1=Julian |last2=Gibbons-Neff |first2=Thomas |date=25 June 2023 |title=With Wagner’s Future in Doubt, Ukraine Could Capitalize on Chaos |language=en |work=[[The New York Times]] |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/us/politics/wagner-future-ukraine-war.html |url-status=live |access-date=26 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230626004944/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/us/politics/wagner-future-ukraine-war.html |archive-date=26 June 2023}}</ref> for a post-mutiny source. This latter source seems to go into more detail than the currently cited CNN for the line, however: it says "Wagner troops who did not participate in the revolt would be allowed to sign contracts with the Defense Ministry." AP News frames it as "The government also said it would not prosecute Wagner fighters who took part, while those who did not join in were to be offered contracts by the Defense Ministry." (<ref>{{Cite news |date=25 June 2023 |title=Russian mercenary group revolt against Moscow fizzles but exposes vulnerabilities |language=en |work=[[Associated Presss]] |url=https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-wagner-prigozhin-9acbdf1eda849692ca0423a4116058d1 |url-status=live |access-date=26 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230626054415/https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-wagner-prigozhin-9acbdf1eda849692ca0423a4116058d1 |archive-date=26 June 2023}}</ref>)
So it looks like the CNN article being cited made a bit too firm of a statement with "will sign contracts". Would anyone who can edit this page please correct it so it is less firmly stated in this article? Editoronthewiki ( talk) 15:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Much like I did on the rebellion talk page, I have a recent moment (and citation for it) I think should be reflected in text: <ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref> Russia was pushing for Wagner to sign a contract to become part of its military hierarchy, much to the anger of Prigozhin. At this time, I cannot edit the page due to the lockdown, but I think this could help anyone who can Editoronthewiki ( talk) 00:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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Change "de facto private army of Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman formerly with close ties to Russian President" to "de facto private army of Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman who formerly had close ties to Russian President".
As it is currently, the reference of this sentence is unclear because of a structural ambiguity; i.e. is Prigozhin formerly a businessman, or formerly somebody with close ties to the president? Worded in the way I have suggested, the ambiguity is resolved and it is made clear that Prigozhin formerly had ties to the president, but is (presumably) still a businessman. PoopyL ( talk) 16:33, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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Jonesey95 (
talk) 16:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)No comments Western countries allow Wanger froup refuged in their Coutries to join NATO Army. But denied Civilian Refuges like Syria Ukaine or Afganistan. 2001:FB1:18C:545D:785B:73BB:8A1E:9330 ( talk) 18:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
the Russian armed forces shall be removed from the allies and added to the opponents section because Wagner has revolted against the Russian army WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 14:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
the headquarters shall be changed to Belarus because the Wagner Group has been expelled from Russia and it has also been banned in Russia. The Belarusian government is constructing a large military base to house wagnerites inside belarus. WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 14:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Should be changed to past tense now: [95] 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:FE1B ( talk) 16:10, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The Telegraph is reporting that Wagner seems to be recruiting from Gurkha soldiers (previously trained in the Nepali Army) after India has tightened its rules on Nepalese soldiers in its military. Not sure where this should be included in the article, but seems noteworthy. GnocchiFan ( talk) 11:07, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
After the Wagner group rebellion, shouldn't the Armed forces of Ukraine be on their Allies' section and the Russian armed forces on the Opponents section? I don't know whether to change this or not because there might have been something I've missed.
As has been discussed here, I think it would be a good idea to summarize Wagner Group activities in Africa in an article of that name, bringing together content currently independently sub-sectioned under this article about; Sudan, Central African Republic, Madagascar, Libya, Mozambique, Mali, Chad and Burkina Faso.
Additionally, the content under the Deaths of journalists section could be moved under the activities in those respective countries section.
Opening the discussion, please contribute. -- Jabbi ( talk) 21:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
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217.33.144.227 ( talk) 19:24, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
FERIAKRIM 19/05/95
Are there any indications of the equipment available to them? Do they have drones, tanks, helicopters, ...? Jan olieslagers ( talk) 19:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
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217.33.144.227 ( talk) 21:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
Feri akrim 19/05/95 [sy121897b]
Second sentence reads:
The group operates beyond the law in Russia, where private military companies are officially forbidden.
It is a notable fact that Russian law fordbids PMCs and that this means that Wagner Group's status in Russia is in a grey area. Academics and journalists have pointed out that this gives Putin arbitrary power to get rid of unwanted agents or look the other way as he sees fit.
Problem is, it is unclear what is meant by "operating beyond the law in Russia", for one thing Wagner Groups apparently doesn't officially exist as an entity. Another thing is, what does that phrase mean exactly, that Wagner Group activities are illegal in Russia by default? I'm not sure the sources support that. And finally, does this belong in the lead? Wagner Group mostly seems to operate in other countries. (Which also raises the question if they operate "beyond the law" there.) Jabbi ( talk) 23:58, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
What is it? No mention about the stories the article subject is most known for?
https://dossier.center/kuvalda/ The Dossier Center found out the names of thugs from PMCs who tortured, killed and dismembered a Syrian in 2017 (rus)
Murder of Yevgeny Nuzhin there is even an article on this and it is only mentioned in "See also"? Manyareasexpert ( talk) 21:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Utkin seems quite likely to be a mere figurehead, this seems all but confirmed by this Bellingcat report.
Statements about Utkin should be careful:
The group was founded in 2014 by former GRU officer Dmitry Utkin and businessman Yevgeny Prigozhin.
This is the first sentence of second paragraph of lead.
He should be much less prominent than he is. He's not been seen publicly for years, unlike Prigozhin... -- Jabbi ( talk) Jabbi ( talk) 13:13, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
2014 marked the end of Slavonic Corps as such, but a part of the group morphed again. That same year, Lt. Col. of the Reserves Dmitrii Utkin – a man who claims both to have earlier worked on anti-piracy for the long-lived shipping Moran Security Group, and to have been in Syria with the Slavonic Corps for the infamous trouble – popped up in the Donbas in eastern Ukraine as the commander of a new organization, the Wagner Group
PCM Wagner used to redirect to this article but it no longer does. H44dyss9900 ( talk) 09:22, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
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Change “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Sudan and Madagascar” to “The Wagner Group is known to have operated in at least eleven countries; Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, Mozambique, Central African Republic, Mali, Libya, Venezuela and Madagascar”
Reason: Sudan is listed twice atm. Venezuela is included in the Activities section but is missing from the list of eleven countries. Lhollo ( talk) 15:39, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
According to Foreign Policy [102] and Bellingcat [103] sources in the body of the article, Utkin was one of the earlier commanders, employed to run the group, while Prigozhin (by his own admission [104]) is the real founder, owner and funder of the group. Mhorg ( talk) 15:46, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
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Yevgeny Prigozhin is dead 2601:47:4300:B120:E05F:A1DD:B71C:F8C ( talk) 17:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. Dmitry Utkin HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Wagner group leader, Prigozhin killed in Moscow plane crash today so you should put him as (2014-2023) [105] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733 Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin on passenger list of plane that crashed HuntersHistory ( talk) 18:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
As a close official with the US Military, I can now confirm that he has died. 2601:47:4300:B120:8C53:1F1C:8F80:8FDF ( talk) 20:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash and Russia and Russia said so it should you should put (2014-2023) next to his name see reasons in talk. HuntersHistory ( talk) 18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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Incorrect spelling. Change "dessert" to "desert" in the section "Recruitment, training, techniques." The text snippet to change is "fighters who retreat or dessert" Hifear267 ( talk) 02:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
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Shouldn’t Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin not be killed in action they weren’t killed in a war they were killed by a plane crash so made instead you should put (2014-2023) next to there names like other wikis. HuntersHistory ( talk) 23:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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In ‘Activities’: Change ‘ten countries’ to ‘eleven countries’ and then add ‘Venezuela’ to the list of countries that follows. Reason: Venezuela is highlighted in red on the map, showing Wagner group as active there, and there is a section about it further down in this same ‘Activities’ section, so this edit is needed for consistency. Lhollo ( talk) 00:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
The description says that the Wagner Group "is not ideologically driven." This is a highly questionable claim; they clearly do have ideological tendencies, and just because they don't overtly say they have an ideology doesn't mean they aren't driven by underlying beliefs or motives. So this phrasing seems incorrect and confusing. Maybe writing "While the group is not explicitly driven by a single ideology" would be more appropriate. LouMichel ( talk) 00:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Last sentence of first paragraph of lede reads:
Why is is important? There is a section discussing these links to far right extremism. PMCs are by their very nature far right - its market directed violence. Take a look at Blackwater, what are the chances that the mercenaries convicted for murdering Iraqi civilians voted for Bernie Sanders. Right?
My point is, there is nothing ideological about Wagner. If a subset of mercenaries have far-right convictions that does not really tell us anything. The wording of the sentence conveys this "elements of". Well elements of nearly anything are linked to far-right extremism these days....
It's a remarkably clumsy sentence, apologetic from the start. Should be removed from lede. Jabbi ( talk) 02:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
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In lede: On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia should be changed to On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were killed in a plane crash in Russia or similar now that the aircraft's Aug 23 passenger list have all been confirmed dead. VronaMrk30 ( talk) 21:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
This article references the plane crash that presumably killed Prigozhin and Utkin (details still developing). There is a wikipedia article on this, 2023 Tver plane crash. I propose that it is linked within this article.
The last sentence of the leader/header currently states "On 23 August 2023, Prigozhin and Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin were presumed dead in a plane crash in Russia, leaving Wagner's leadership structure unclear. It is alleged the plane was shot down by the Russian military." That would be a good place to link it. I can not directly edit the page. If editors with editing rights agree, please do so. LWu22 ( talk) 20:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-wagner-be-declared-terrorist-organization-by-uk-bbc-2023-09-06/ 2A02:3030:817:5622:1:0:436E:368F ( talk) 20:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
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Please add "United Kingdom" as a designated terrorist group, per source via https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/06/europe/russia-wagner-group-terrorist-organization-uk-intl/index.html 112.205.176.179 ( talk) 04:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Should be mentioned somewhere in the article that they are going back https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-russia-ukraine-putin-progozhin-1828052 Napalm Guy ( talk) 22:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
it says "being lead" where it should be "being led" BennyBoy36 ( talk) 18:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Here’s an source [107] suggesting deep connections between Wagner Group activities and Rodnovery beliefs and practices, a link which goes beyond merely the fact that members of Wagner (as with certain divisions in the regular Russian military) are disproportionately Rodnovers.
Apparently, the group’s trademark use of sledgehammers for torture and execution is a nod to the use of hammer symbols in various pagan myths (e.g., Mjolnir); Prigozhin himself reportedly acknowledged this connection while he was alive. Senior figures in the Russian Orthodox Church have denounced him and other Wagner leaders as pagans. Wagner also reportedly founded an ideological division in 2019 whose primary focus was promoting Rodnovery. The source I linked does take care to mention that there are plenty of Slavic neopagans, particularly outside of Russia, who oppose Wagner’s use of their faith’s symbolism. This article should certainly mention all of this; it’s not entirely accurate to describe Wagner as non-ideological. It’d be better to say that to the extent that Wagner Group had an ideology, it would have been Rodnover nationalism. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:77FB ( talk) 02:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
I believe the image description of the image portraying Sergei Shoigu should use past tense, as it refers to the deceased Prigozhin. Emlythk ( talk) 20:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Why is IDF listed as opponent? No source is given for this. Genabab ( talk) 15:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
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Please replace File:Wagner armed rebellion vehicle marking Z.png with File:Wagner armed rebellion vehicle marking Z.svg Rainbowlack ( talk) 22:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)