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województwo warmińsko-mazurskie:
"Warmia-Masuria Province" 5 hits [1]
"Warmian-Masurian Province" 7 hits [2]
"Warmińsko-Mazurskie Province" about 54 hits [3]
"Warmia-Masuria Voivodeship" 0 hits [4]
"Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship" 9 hits [5]
"Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship" about 46 hits [6]
województwo wielkopolskie:
"Wielkopolska Province" about 243 hits [7]
"Wielkopolskie Province" about 59 hits [8]
"Great Poland Province" about 17 hits [9]
"Greater Poland Province" about 13 hits [10]
"Wielkopolska Voivodeship" about 58 hits [11]
"Wielkopolskie Voivodeship" about 46 hits [12]
"Great Poland Voivodeship" 1 hit [13]
"Greater Poland Voivodeship" 10 hits [14]
This shows the huge mess in the translation of Polish administrative units into English. It's high time for Wikipedia to recommend the most sensible translation for each. Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 21:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The naming convention using nouns has the advantage of consistent translation of names of various institutions or geographic units, etc. in a given area (e.g. Wielkopolska National Park). Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 21:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
This convention is exemplified by the above-mentioned Belczyk's list of Polish province names [15]:
This list is an appendix to Belczyk's very good article about translation of Polish geographic names, written in 2002. Note that nearly all the names use nouns. The only exceptions are "Świętokrzyskie" and "Lubuskie", because the names of these provinces derive from "Świętokrzyskie Mountains" and "Ziemia Lubuska" (nobody associates the provinces with "Święty Krzyż" and "Lubusz" i.e. the town of Lebus located in Germany). Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 22:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Not quite. Łowicz is not in Mazowieckie, but it is certainly still in Mazovia. A more quinetessentially Mazovian town you will not find. Częstochowa, on the other hand, is in Śląskie, but is certainly not in Silesia. When I hear "province" in a Polish context, I think of Mazovia and Silesia, not Mazowieckie and Śląskie. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 06:11, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
"Local government in Poland is organized on three levels. The largest units, at the regional level, are the województwa (provinces), which were consolidated and reduced in number from 49 to 16 in 1999. At the next level are some 300 powiaty (counties or districts), followed by about 2,500 gminy (towns and rural communes)."
"Poland is divided into 49 provinces."
"Following the reform of the administrative structure in 1973-1975, the number of provinces (województwa) was increased from 22 to 49, of which three are the metropolitan cities of Warsaw, Łódź, and Kraków.... [I]ncreasing the number of provinces meant the reduction of each in size. In this way Warsaw was able to dilute the political importance of the provincial party chiefs."
Nihil novi ( talk) 05:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
GOVERNMENT... Administrative divisions: 16 provinces (wojewodztwa, singular–wojewodztwo): Dolnoslaskie (Lower Silesia), Kujawsko-Pomorskie (Kuyavia-Pomerania), Lodzkie, Lubelskie (Lublin), Lubuskie (Lubusz), Malopolskie (Lesser Poland), Mazowieckie (Masovia), Opolskie, Podkarpackie (Subcarpathia), Podlaskie, Pomorskie (Pomerania), Slaskie (Silesia), Swietokrzyskie, Warminsko-Mazurskie (Warmia-Masuria), Wielkopolskie (Greater Poland), Zachodniopomorskie (West Pomerania).
Nihil novi ( talk) 01:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
When foreigners coming to Poland hear for the first time "Greater Poland Voivideship", what do they usually associate it with? I guess that they think "something greater and Polish, but I have no idea what it is". When they hear "Wielkopolska Province", they simply think "a large administrative unit named Wielkopolska". Some Wikimedians say that we're not responsible for what happens outside Wikipedia. But we want Wikipedia to be a source of reliable and understandable information, used by everybody. Don't we? Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 22:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Polish regions have presented their recent projects. Both "region" and "voivodeship" were used. An official list http://www.brukselaeu.polemb.net/?document=78, but compare "Wielkopolska Voivodship" and http://www.wielkopolska.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=19&Itemid=79 Xx236 ( talk) 09:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've heard so much about this Lubusz Province of yours! So, where's this Lubusz town that the whole province gets its name from?
- In Germany.
- Oh.
- I've heard so much about this Podlaskie Province of yours! So, where's this Podlaskie town that the whole province gets its name from, as apparently provinces named after regions are translated, while those named after cities are not?
- I'm sorry, our inferiority complex makes us translate shit no one else cares about in fear of sounding too exotic.
- Oh.
etc.
The voivodships are names after historical regions or cities, but do not correspond strictly to those. The Małopolskie Voivodship may cover most of historical Lesser Poland, but the city of Częstochowa remains outside of it. The Opolskie Voivodship was actually based on the quite distinct Opolian Silesia, and not just the fact that this one moderately-sized city is there, so hey, let's give it a whole new entity. And last but not least, the Lubuskie is in fact named after the region of Ziemia Lubuska, otherwise (and erstwhile) known as Terra Lubus. Yes, it's Latin. Why then stick to some confusing, literal renditions such as "Greater" or "Lesser Poland" (that not even Poles consider greater or lesser in any way), if we're not going to observe that rule in the one case that actually requires historical accuracy?
This is why they're adjectives by the way. And as such, they should uniformly keep their original spelling, just like all newly-coined designations do.
Let us start with 'świętokrzyskie - the Świętokrzyskie Province'. This is how the name is spelled on the map at the top of the actual page, complete with a Polish letter. Next we should consider Gdansk/Gdańsk and the battle that took place on that page between Polish and German editors, the latter who wanted it to be Danzig. I have seen the arguments about which encyclopedias use outdated names, presumably still using data from the 19th century when Poland as a country did not exist. However, Poland does exist and has certainly existed since the very early 1920s, and if they have been too lazy to update their records then that is their problem - not ours. I have lived in Lublin, which is a city according to the maps and road signs, in Lubelskie voivodeships. Yes, in Polish they could both be written as Lublin and Lubleskie etc. but Polish grammar does not work in the same way as English grammar. Now if we examine the Polish language wikipedia then we can see how many times the voivodeship map ( https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojew%C3%B3dztwo) has been redrawn over the past 120 years, and yet still we hang onto a set of Germanic names and insufficient consideration of Polish grammar and of the needs of Polish people living in Poland today. Lublin Trev ( talk) 06:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Index
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Google Scholar includes not only books but also articles:
województwo warmińsko-mazurskie:
"Warmia-Masuria Province" 5 hits [1]
"Warmian-Masurian Province" 7 hits [2]
"Warmińsko-Mazurskie Province" about 54 hits [3]
"Warmia-Masuria Voivodeship" 0 hits [4]
"Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship" 9 hits [5]
"Warmińsko-Mazurskie Voivodeship" about 46 hits [6]
województwo wielkopolskie:
"Wielkopolska Province" about 243 hits [7]
"Wielkopolskie Province" about 59 hits [8]
"Great Poland Province" about 17 hits [9]
"Greater Poland Province" about 13 hits [10]
"Wielkopolska Voivodeship" about 58 hits [11]
"Wielkopolskie Voivodeship" about 46 hits [12]
"Great Poland Voivodeship" 1 hit [13]
"Greater Poland Voivodeship" 10 hits [14]
This shows the huge mess in the translation of Polish administrative units into English. It's high time for Wikipedia to recommend the most sensible translation for each. Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 21:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
The naming convention using nouns has the advantage of consistent translation of names of various institutions or geographic units, etc. in a given area (e.g. Wielkopolska National Park). Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 21:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
This convention is exemplified by the above-mentioned Belczyk's list of Polish province names [15]:
This list is an appendix to Belczyk's very good article about translation of Polish geographic names, written in 2002. Note that nearly all the names use nouns. The only exceptions are "Świętokrzyskie" and "Lubuskie", because the names of these provinces derive from "Świętokrzyskie Mountains" and "Ziemia Lubuska" (nobody associates the provinces with "Święty Krzyż" and "Lubusz" i.e. the town of Lebus located in Germany). Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 22:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Not quite. Łowicz is not in Mazowieckie, but it is certainly still in Mazovia. A more quinetessentially Mazovian town you will not find. Częstochowa, on the other hand, is in Śląskie, but is certainly not in Silesia. When I hear "province" in a Polish context, I think of Mazovia and Silesia, not Mazowieckie and Śląskie. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 06:11, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
"Local government in Poland is organized on three levels. The largest units, at the regional level, are the województwa (provinces), which were consolidated and reduced in number from 49 to 16 in 1999. At the next level are some 300 powiaty (counties or districts), followed by about 2,500 gminy (towns and rural communes)."
"Poland is divided into 49 provinces."
"Following the reform of the administrative structure in 1973-1975, the number of provinces (województwa) was increased from 22 to 49, of which three are the metropolitan cities of Warsaw, Łódź, and Kraków.... [I]ncreasing the number of provinces meant the reduction of each in size. In this way Warsaw was able to dilute the political importance of the provincial party chiefs."
Nihil novi ( talk) 05:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
GOVERNMENT... Administrative divisions: 16 provinces (wojewodztwa, singular–wojewodztwo): Dolnoslaskie (Lower Silesia), Kujawsko-Pomorskie (Kuyavia-Pomerania), Lodzkie, Lubelskie (Lublin), Lubuskie (Lubusz), Malopolskie (Lesser Poland), Mazowieckie (Masovia), Opolskie, Podkarpackie (Subcarpathia), Podlaskie, Pomorskie (Pomerania), Slaskie (Silesia), Swietokrzyskie, Warminsko-Mazurskie (Warmia-Masuria), Wielkopolskie (Greater Poland), Zachodniopomorskie (West Pomerania).
Nihil novi ( talk) 01:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
When foreigners coming to Poland hear for the first time "Greater Poland Voivideship", what do they usually associate it with? I guess that they think "something greater and Polish, but I have no idea what it is". When they hear "Wielkopolska Province", they simply think "a large administrative unit named Wielkopolska". Some Wikimedians say that we're not responsible for what happens outside Wikipedia. But we want Wikipedia to be a source of reliable and understandable information, used by everybody. Don't we? Sylwia Ufnalska ( talk) 22:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Polish regions have presented their recent projects. Both "region" and "voivodeship" were used. An official list http://www.brukselaeu.polemb.net/?document=78, but compare "Wielkopolska Voivodship" and http://www.wielkopolska.eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=19&Itemid=79 Xx236 ( talk) 09:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've heard so much about this Lubusz Province of yours! So, where's this Lubusz town that the whole province gets its name from?
- In Germany.
- Oh.
- I've heard so much about this Podlaskie Province of yours! So, where's this Podlaskie town that the whole province gets its name from, as apparently provinces named after regions are translated, while those named after cities are not?
- I'm sorry, our inferiority complex makes us translate shit no one else cares about in fear of sounding too exotic.
- Oh.
etc.
The voivodships are names after historical regions or cities, but do not correspond strictly to those. The Małopolskie Voivodship may cover most of historical Lesser Poland, but the city of Częstochowa remains outside of it. The Opolskie Voivodship was actually based on the quite distinct Opolian Silesia, and not just the fact that this one moderately-sized city is there, so hey, let's give it a whole new entity. And last but not least, the Lubuskie is in fact named after the region of Ziemia Lubuska, otherwise (and erstwhile) known as Terra Lubus. Yes, it's Latin. Why then stick to some confusing, literal renditions such as "Greater" or "Lesser Poland" (that not even Poles consider greater or lesser in any way), if we're not going to observe that rule in the one case that actually requires historical accuracy?
This is why they're adjectives by the way. And as such, they should uniformly keep their original spelling, just like all newly-coined designations do.
Let us start with 'świętokrzyskie - the Świętokrzyskie Province'. This is how the name is spelled on the map at the top of the actual page, complete with a Polish letter. Next we should consider Gdansk/Gdańsk and the battle that took place on that page between Polish and German editors, the latter who wanted it to be Danzig. I have seen the arguments about which encyclopedias use outdated names, presumably still using data from the 19th century when Poland as a country did not exist. However, Poland does exist and has certainly existed since the very early 1920s, and if they have been too lazy to update their records then that is their problem - not ours. I have lived in Lublin, which is a city according to the maps and road signs, in Lubelskie voivodeships. Yes, in Polish they could both be written as Lublin and Lubleskie etc. but Polish grammar does not work in the same way as English grammar. Now if we examine the Polish language wikipedia then we can see how many times the voivodeship map ( https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojew%C3%B3dztwo) has been redrawn over the past 120 years, and yet still we hang onto a set of Germanic names and insufficient consideration of Polish grammar and of the needs of Polish people living in Poland today. Lublin Trev ( talk) 06:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)