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We have full paragraph on the works of one analyst to observes that the "spirit" writing " denotes a lack of freedom, a constraint, with a strong restraint of movement. " and then falsely leaves the impression that this is because Ryden is "fighting" the claimed spirit possession rather than the rather obvious interpretation that it is constrained because she is deliberately attempting to write in a way that is different from her natural writing style. - spiritual possession or deliberate fakery, which is most likely interpretation? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
http://www.fxdeguibert.com/ is the right publisher (tried to find it myself, you were more successful). Arkatakor ( talk) 21:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I have done some research on both books. The Vassula Enigma book was originally published in French by Editions Favre at ISBN 9782828905460, which is not a TLIG affiliated publisher. Trinitas then translated and published the English version of the book which I then referenced here. The full information of the original French version is below:
L'énigme Vassula: Jacques Neirynck Publisher: Editions Favre ISBN 9782828905460
Available from: http://www.parvis.ch/fr/livres-et-brochures/lenigme-vassula
As for J'ai vu écrire Vassula the publisher is as follows.
J'ai vu écrire Vassula: Dr Philippe Loron Publisher: Editions de Guibert ISBN 9782868393470
Available from: http://www.parvis.ch/fr/livres-et-brochures/jai-vu-ecrire-vassula
I think at this point it should not be an issue to re-insert the edits I performed yesterday using the aforementioned publishers as a reference (which are after all the originals) as opposed to TLIG affiliated Trinitas. Arkatakor ( talk) 15:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Doom, while I do agree that perhaps the overall length of the original graphological summary could be reduced somewhat, as per WP:UNDUE weight, the current graphological text in the article is missing the most notable findings now supported by no less than 3 certified graphologists. It is not up to us to judge what is "reasonable" or not. Thats the job of the graphologists. As for the publisher conflict, it was simply that the original publisher was a French publishing house which makes sense as Jacques Neirynck is Swiss. This should have been used from the beginning, not Trinitas. Personally I was unaware that Trinitas was a TLIG only publisher and am glad you pointed that out.
Binksternet, the real elephant in the room is the Joe Nickell's false experiment. Nickel starts with assumption that what he is analyzing is false therefore is not neutral in his approach. Here are a few observations I made on the latter investigator:
Take note that despite the above, no WP:UNDUE weight is being applied to the text attributed to Nickels findings. Graphology as you mention is not a hard science, but its the best discipline available to analyze the handwriting, and certainly the most relevant. We now have 3 certified graphologists that came up with similar findings, much to the surprise of the authors who mentioned them in their books. I do hope that the issue of publishing houses has been clarified, and that a more comprehensive analysis of the certified graphologists can be inserted after the WP:UNDUE weight issues have been resolved. Arkatakor ( talk) 18:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
i ham-fistedly just lumped all the various "reception" content together without any cohesive editing.
it seems to me that the contents within the section should be something like:
is that a framework that seems accurate?-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Many of the priests who have positively reviewed Ryden are anything but "renegade priests". If you review the edit history of this article, particularly since the beginning May 2012, you will take note published works / articles of well-known and respected theologians / scientists / clergy (including cardinals) are systematically treated with disdain and prejudice and not allowed in the article (particularly by LuckyLouie). These authors include Niels Hvidt with his Oxford University Press publication, but also other authors such as graphologist and exorcist priest Fr. C. Curty, scientist and neurologist Dr. P. Loron (Paris), theologian and consultant on supernatural phenomena Fr. Rene Laurentin (France), scientist, politician and author Jacques Neirynck (Switzerland), author and theologian Fr. Edward O’Connor (Notre Dame University, USA), author and theologian Fr. F. Umaña Moñtoya (Colombia), Fr. Michael O’Carroll, member of the Marian Academy. Arkatakor ( talk) 14:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPod aka the Red Pen of Doom – re: [if you can name dozens of people willing to give these claims the time of day, compared as a percentage of the Orthodox hierarchy, they are a minuscule percent. When you add to the denominator the Catholic hierarchy and all serious religious scholars those dozens are less than any rounding error.] Anyone claiming that God communicates with them inevitably excites controversy along with ridicule or belief in mainstream/religious/skeptic circles – there’s not going to be a lot of middle ground between those who reject or believe such a claim. In light of this & with ref to [WP:BAL]: Regardless of numbers supporting or rejecting Ryden’s claims, while the article states that there are supporters of Ryden it doesn’t set out why they support her claims – what they believe and why they believe it - eg Frs. O’Carroll/Laurentin (internationally known theologians, journalists & respected prolific authors, experienced & sought after for their expertise in the area of religious mystical phenomena/ apparitions - serious religious scholars). By contrast, there is a relatively large amount of information in the article (Reception/ Handwriting sections) stating why some people/groups reject Ryden’s claims (what they reject and why they reject it). In encyclopedic writing ought not both sides of any controversial issue be set out? ( Siamsiocht (talk)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siamsiocht ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPod aka the Red Pen of Doom – re: if you can name dozens of people willing to give these claims the time of day, compared as a percentage of the Orthodox hierarchy, they are a minuscule percent. When you add to the denominator the Catholic hierarchy and all serious religious scholars those dozens are less than any rounding error.
Ok, let's not get off on the wrong foot here. I for one am glad that you have taken an interest in editing this article. Your approach to editing has sofar displayed a neutral approach, something that I have not observed in most other editors involved in this article. Now as for your opening statement I find that it illustrates a view that is too simplistic of what has actually gone down between Ryden and the church, those who has reviewed her and whatnot. The dispute history revolving around this article (in RSN's, DRN's and RFC's) was mainly focused on Rydens dialogue with the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), a dialogue (now entirely absent from the article) that occurred between Ryden and the CDF between 2000-2004.
When mediating this DRN: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_35#Vassula_Ryden, non-involved user and mediator TransporterMan, who was a newcomer to Rydens background did some serious reading on Ryden's background, including the dialogue with the CDF. In his comment dated 17:07, 26 June 2012 (UTC) TransporterMan stated that he found the following non wiki usable link informative: http://www.cdf-tlig.org/ The aforementioned link contains a report which was written by Dr. Niels Hvidt, who was directly involved in Ryden's dialogue with the CDF. Hvidt also wrote an RSN approved doctoral dissertation titled Christian Prophecy, The Post-Biblical Tradition published in 2007 by Oxford University Press (OUP) (which I mentioned earlier). This book contains a paragraph on the case of Rydén with the CDF, titled “Dialogue between Vassula Rydén and the CDF”. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the Foreword to the book, which is a big deal considering he was prefect of the CDF at the time the 1995 notification was issued. My first recommendation is to go through that website to get a more comprehensive understanding of what has gone down between Ryden and the CDF, paying particular attention to the four documents the Vatican has issued regarding Ryden. These are the 1995 notification, its reconfirmation in 1996, the 2004 document that stated that Ryden offered useful clarifications with regard to issues raised in the 1995 notification, and finally, the 2007 re-iteration of the 1995 notification.
My second recommendation is that you read TransporterMans's comment dated 17:07, 26 June 2012 in its entirety (also in the aforementioned DRN). To summarize, he stated that the four documents that the Vatican has issued regarding Ryden and her works were very ambiguous and could be interpreted in many different ways. As such, he highlighted that self-interpretation of the Vatican documents for purposes of inserting associated material into the article was in breach of Wikipedia guidelines. He concluded to say that for this reason and the fact that there was a lack of secondary reliable sources to interpret all four documents in unison, the section in question (everything related the Vatican's views on Ryden) should be removed until there is a reliable secondary source that makes a synthesis of all four relevant vatican documents. This suggestion was disregarded. Instead the 1995 / 1996 notification and its 2007 reconfirmation has been kept in the article and duplicated to appear in the lead. None of the sources currently used in the article that discuss the Vatican's view on Ryden perform a synthesis of all four Vatican documents. Any mention of the 2004 document and the Ryden-CDF dialogue that preceeded it, was (and continues to be) kept out despite the fact that there two reliable sources that confirm it took place (Hvidt's RSN approved book which I mentioned and an article written by a Cardinal from insidethevatican.com.
The repeated accusation against myself and other editors who are in favor of including the CDF dialogue is that we are trying to add a spin to the article to make it out that the Vatican has a different view other than the official line. This is not the case. We are simply trying to insert it as part of the chronology of events between Ryden and the CDF. See this discussion as an example. Arkatakor ( talk) 09:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom Re ’Until there is an equally significant amount of mainstream support for her claims, the mainstream claims against her position will of necessity make up the better represented portion of the content of the article.’
Have read links you suggested, thanks. I’m wondering exactly how the academic credentials, renown, publication record of a source is relevant in Wikipedia as per: (ref WP:SOURCE Type/Creator/Publisher of the work) The credentials of some supporters of Ryden appear to surpass a number of sources whose mainstream claims against her position are included in the article. Does being outside of the mainstream automatically silence all sources regardless of calibre of academic credentials etc? Is it not of interest to know why, despite a Notification from Vatican & Orthodox Church (detailed in the article), some high ranking clergy & world renowned theologians continue to support the claims of a Greek Orthodox whom they are told to disregard? Can not the rationale for their support of Ryden’s claims be set out to some degree in the article even if mainstream claims against her position as you say: ‘will of necessity make up the better represented portion of the content of the article.’? Siamsiocht ( talk) 17:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I just cannot find how to edit the reference below to Cardinal Grech's review of Vassula's book which is an outdated link. The working link to the review is: Inside the Vatican Cardinal Grech review Sasanack ( talk) 16:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
In the "Reception" section, Father Tardif is mentioned as a supporter of Vassula, defying the Vatican's directives. This information is based on an interview Father Tardif gave to an Italian journalist in 1996. However, in 1996, Fr. Dermine of Radio Maria Italy wrote a letter to Tardif asking him about the interview, and Tardif wrote back saying that he had been misquoted, that he barely knew Vassula's messages and that he had never said that she was an authentic mystic. The letter, with Tardif's permission, was read during Fr. Dermine's program on the Radio. The original letter has now been published on the Pseudomystica website (given to them by Fr. Dermine). Would it be possible to amend the Wikipedia article in order to add this information? Or at least to remove Tardif's name as a supporter? All the documentation is here: www.pseudomystica.info/tardif.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by MARobles ( talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
"...according to the "official" web movement of Vassula Ryden (exactly here: http://www.tlig.org/sp/sptardif.html) in 1996 Father Tardif told an Italian journalist in a publication (untraceable Internet and unproven existence, or at least no one could find) that "Ratzinger authorized the faithful to spread the messages" of Vassula. ...Tardif's alleged statements were supposedly recorded by the "Italian journalist Marino Parodi in the newspaper Il Soprenaturale Sign" of which no trace can be found"
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Catholic Church On the basis of Nihil ObstatItalic text issued by Felix Toppo, S.J., D.D. Bishop of Jamshedpur, Censor Liborum (28 November 2005) and ImprimaturItalic text by Ramon C. Arguelles, D.D., STL Archbishop of Lima (28 November 2005), the Messages entitled True Life in God between the dates of September 20, 1986 and Messages ended on April 30, 2003 have the approval of the Catholic Church. This allows reading and publication of the Messages together with distribution within the Catholic Church around the world. Later Messages post April 30 2003 until the end of 2020 also have received Nihil ObstatItalic text and ImprimaturItalic text from the same source ( Archbishop Felix Toppo and Archbishop Ramon C. Arguelles. Paweł Arabski ( talk) 17:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. |
Index
|
|||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
We have full paragraph on the works of one analyst to observes that the "spirit" writing " denotes a lack of freedom, a constraint, with a strong restraint of movement. " and then falsely leaves the impression that this is because Ryden is "fighting" the claimed spirit possession rather than the rather obvious interpretation that it is constrained because she is deliberately attempting to write in a way that is different from her natural writing style. - spiritual possession or deliberate fakery, which is most likely interpretation? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
http://www.fxdeguibert.com/ is the right publisher (tried to find it myself, you were more successful). Arkatakor ( talk) 21:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
I have done some research on both books. The Vassula Enigma book was originally published in French by Editions Favre at ISBN 9782828905460, which is not a TLIG affiliated publisher. Trinitas then translated and published the English version of the book which I then referenced here. The full information of the original French version is below:
L'énigme Vassula: Jacques Neirynck Publisher: Editions Favre ISBN 9782828905460
Available from: http://www.parvis.ch/fr/livres-et-brochures/lenigme-vassula
As for J'ai vu écrire Vassula the publisher is as follows.
J'ai vu écrire Vassula: Dr Philippe Loron Publisher: Editions de Guibert ISBN 9782868393470
Available from: http://www.parvis.ch/fr/livres-et-brochures/jai-vu-ecrire-vassula
I think at this point it should not be an issue to re-insert the edits I performed yesterday using the aforementioned publishers as a reference (which are after all the originals) as opposed to TLIG affiliated Trinitas. Arkatakor ( talk) 15:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Doom, while I do agree that perhaps the overall length of the original graphological summary could be reduced somewhat, as per WP:UNDUE weight, the current graphological text in the article is missing the most notable findings now supported by no less than 3 certified graphologists. It is not up to us to judge what is "reasonable" or not. Thats the job of the graphologists. As for the publisher conflict, it was simply that the original publisher was a French publishing house which makes sense as Jacques Neirynck is Swiss. This should have been used from the beginning, not Trinitas. Personally I was unaware that Trinitas was a TLIG only publisher and am glad you pointed that out.
Binksternet, the real elephant in the room is the Joe Nickell's false experiment. Nickel starts with assumption that what he is analyzing is false therefore is not neutral in his approach. Here are a few observations I made on the latter investigator:
Take note that despite the above, no WP:UNDUE weight is being applied to the text attributed to Nickels findings. Graphology as you mention is not a hard science, but its the best discipline available to analyze the handwriting, and certainly the most relevant. We now have 3 certified graphologists that came up with similar findings, much to the surprise of the authors who mentioned them in their books. I do hope that the issue of publishing houses has been clarified, and that a more comprehensive analysis of the certified graphologists can be inserted after the WP:UNDUE weight issues have been resolved. Arkatakor ( talk) 18:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
i ham-fistedly just lumped all the various "reception" content together without any cohesive editing.
it seems to me that the contents within the section should be something like:
is that a framework that seems accurate?-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Many of the priests who have positively reviewed Ryden are anything but "renegade priests". If you review the edit history of this article, particularly since the beginning May 2012, you will take note published works / articles of well-known and respected theologians / scientists / clergy (including cardinals) are systematically treated with disdain and prejudice and not allowed in the article (particularly by LuckyLouie). These authors include Niels Hvidt with his Oxford University Press publication, but also other authors such as graphologist and exorcist priest Fr. C. Curty, scientist and neurologist Dr. P. Loron (Paris), theologian and consultant on supernatural phenomena Fr. Rene Laurentin (France), scientist, politician and author Jacques Neirynck (Switzerland), author and theologian Fr. Edward O’Connor (Notre Dame University, USA), author and theologian Fr. F. Umaña Moñtoya (Colombia), Fr. Michael O’Carroll, member of the Marian Academy. Arkatakor ( talk) 14:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPod aka the Red Pen of Doom – re: [if you can name dozens of people willing to give these claims the time of day, compared as a percentage of the Orthodox hierarchy, they are a minuscule percent. When you add to the denominator the Catholic hierarchy and all serious religious scholars those dozens are less than any rounding error.] Anyone claiming that God communicates with them inevitably excites controversy along with ridicule or belief in mainstream/religious/skeptic circles – there’s not going to be a lot of middle ground between those who reject or believe such a claim. In light of this & with ref to [WP:BAL]: Regardless of numbers supporting or rejecting Ryden’s claims, while the article states that there are supporters of Ryden it doesn’t set out why they support her claims – what they believe and why they believe it - eg Frs. O’Carroll/Laurentin (internationally known theologians, journalists & respected prolific authors, experienced & sought after for their expertise in the area of religious mystical phenomena/ apparitions - serious religious scholars). By contrast, there is a relatively large amount of information in the article (Reception/ Handwriting sections) stating why some people/groups reject Ryden’s claims (what they reject and why they reject it). In encyclopedic writing ought not both sides of any controversial issue be set out? ( Siamsiocht (talk)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siamsiocht ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPod aka the Red Pen of Doom – re: if you can name dozens of people willing to give these claims the time of day, compared as a percentage of the Orthodox hierarchy, they are a minuscule percent. When you add to the denominator the Catholic hierarchy and all serious religious scholars those dozens are less than any rounding error.
Ok, let's not get off on the wrong foot here. I for one am glad that you have taken an interest in editing this article. Your approach to editing has sofar displayed a neutral approach, something that I have not observed in most other editors involved in this article. Now as for your opening statement I find that it illustrates a view that is too simplistic of what has actually gone down between Ryden and the church, those who has reviewed her and whatnot. The dispute history revolving around this article (in RSN's, DRN's and RFC's) was mainly focused on Rydens dialogue with the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), a dialogue (now entirely absent from the article) that occurred between Ryden and the CDF between 2000-2004.
When mediating this DRN: Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_35#Vassula_Ryden, non-involved user and mediator TransporterMan, who was a newcomer to Rydens background did some serious reading on Ryden's background, including the dialogue with the CDF. In his comment dated 17:07, 26 June 2012 (UTC) TransporterMan stated that he found the following non wiki usable link informative: http://www.cdf-tlig.org/ The aforementioned link contains a report which was written by Dr. Niels Hvidt, who was directly involved in Ryden's dialogue with the CDF. Hvidt also wrote an RSN approved doctoral dissertation titled Christian Prophecy, The Post-Biblical Tradition published in 2007 by Oxford University Press (OUP) (which I mentioned earlier). This book contains a paragraph on the case of Rydén with the CDF, titled “Dialogue between Vassula Rydén and the CDF”. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the Foreword to the book, which is a big deal considering he was prefect of the CDF at the time the 1995 notification was issued. My first recommendation is to go through that website to get a more comprehensive understanding of what has gone down between Ryden and the CDF, paying particular attention to the four documents the Vatican has issued regarding Ryden. These are the 1995 notification, its reconfirmation in 1996, the 2004 document that stated that Ryden offered useful clarifications with regard to issues raised in the 1995 notification, and finally, the 2007 re-iteration of the 1995 notification.
My second recommendation is that you read TransporterMans's comment dated 17:07, 26 June 2012 in its entirety (also in the aforementioned DRN). To summarize, he stated that the four documents that the Vatican has issued regarding Ryden and her works were very ambiguous and could be interpreted in many different ways. As such, he highlighted that self-interpretation of the Vatican documents for purposes of inserting associated material into the article was in breach of Wikipedia guidelines. He concluded to say that for this reason and the fact that there was a lack of secondary reliable sources to interpret all four documents in unison, the section in question (everything related the Vatican's views on Ryden) should be removed until there is a reliable secondary source that makes a synthesis of all four relevant vatican documents. This suggestion was disregarded. Instead the 1995 / 1996 notification and its 2007 reconfirmation has been kept in the article and duplicated to appear in the lead. None of the sources currently used in the article that discuss the Vatican's view on Ryden perform a synthesis of all four Vatican documents. Any mention of the 2004 document and the Ryden-CDF dialogue that preceeded it, was (and continues to be) kept out despite the fact that there two reliable sources that confirm it took place (Hvidt's RSN approved book which I mentioned and an article written by a Cardinal from insidethevatican.com.
The repeated accusation against myself and other editors who are in favor of including the CDF dialogue is that we are trying to add a spin to the article to make it out that the Vatican has a different view other than the official line. This is not the case. We are simply trying to insert it as part of the chronology of events between Ryden and the CDF. See this discussion as an example. Arkatakor ( talk) 09:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
@TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom Re ’Until there is an equally significant amount of mainstream support for her claims, the mainstream claims against her position will of necessity make up the better represented portion of the content of the article.’
Have read links you suggested, thanks. I’m wondering exactly how the academic credentials, renown, publication record of a source is relevant in Wikipedia as per: (ref WP:SOURCE Type/Creator/Publisher of the work) The credentials of some supporters of Ryden appear to surpass a number of sources whose mainstream claims against her position are included in the article. Does being outside of the mainstream automatically silence all sources regardless of calibre of academic credentials etc? Is it not of interest to know why, despite a Notification from Vatican & Orthodox Church (detailed in the article), some high ranking clergy & world renowned theologians continue to support the claims of a Greek Orthodox whom they are told to disregard? Can not the rationale for their support of Ryden’s claims be set out to some degree in the article even if mainstream claims against her position as you say: ‘will of necessity make up the better represented portion of the content of the article.’? Siamsiocht ( talk) 17:47, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I just cannot find how to edit the reference below to Cardinal Grech's review of Vassula's book which is an outdated link. The working link to the review is: Inside the Vatican Cardinal Grech review Sasanack ( talk) 16:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
In the "Reception" section, Father Tardif is mentioned as a supporter of Vassula, defying the Vatican's directives. This information is based on an interview Father Tardif gave to an Italian journalist in 1996. However, in 1996, Fr. Dermine of Radio Maria Italy wrote a letter to Tardif asking him about the interview, and Tardif wrote back saying that he had been misquoted, that he barely knew Vassula's messages and that he had never said that she was an authentic mystic. The letter, with Tardif's permission, was read during Fr. Dermine's program on the Radio. The original letter has now been published on the Pseudomystica website (given to them by Fr. Dermine). Would it be possible to amend the Wikipedia article in order to add this information? Or at least to remove Tardif's name as a supporter? All the documentation is here: www.pseudomystica.info/tardif.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by MARobles ( talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
"...according to the "official" web movement of Vassula Ryden (exactly here: http://www.tlig.org/sp/sptardif.html) in 1996 Father Tardif told an Italian journalist in a publication (untraceable Internet and unproven existence, or at least no one could find) that "Ratzinger authorized the faithful to spread the messages" of Vassula. ...Tardif's alleged statements were supposedly recorded by the "Italian journalist Marino Parodi in the newspaper Il Soprenaturale Sign" of which no trace can be found"
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Catholic Church On the basis of Nihil ObstatItalic text issued by Felix Toppo, S.J., D.D. Bishop of Jamshedpur, Censor Liborum (28 November 2005) and ImprimaturItalic text by Ramon C. Arguelles, D.D., STL Archbishop of Lima (28 November 2005), the Messages entitled True Life in God between the dates of September 20, 1986 and Messages ended on April 30, 2003 have the approval of the Catholic Church. This allows reading and publication of the Messages together with distribution within the Catholic Church around the world. Later Messages post April 30 2003 until the end of 2020 also have received Nihil ObstatItalic text and ImprimaturItalic text from the same source ( Archbishop Felix Toppo and Archbishop Ramon C. Arguelles. Paweł Arabski ( talk) 17:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)