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I honestly cannot believe this./ Craic is a GAELIC word for fun or a good laugh.It has been adopted from the Irish language and is originally an Irish word. I have been studying Irish for the past 3 years and it DEFINITELY comes from Irish. This honestly is the first time I've ever heard of anyone spell it crack. Must be the way some people spell it for it to fit in better with the English language and its literature. And its not an English loan-word, its an Irish loan word borrowed from the Irish language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliketurtlesandotheranimalstoo ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Why anyone would use an Irish spelling of an English loan-word in the context of writing English will, I assume, remain a mystery.
I see no mystery there what so ever! Craic is the way it should be! Plain and simple!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Coming from working class Belfast I never heard the word " Crack" (except in relation to damage to a dropped plate etc) used until I was a teenager(1970's), at that time, at least in my area it was a buzz word used only by young people ie "What's the Crack?" meaning "What's happening" and it did not have to mean something good or fun. Late 70's & early 80's "Good Crack" became more commonly used. Maybe its an urban myth but it was my understanding that the more Gaelic form of spelling was simply adopted to denote the difference to outsiders between a good laugh and crack cocaine as demonstrated in the confusion surrounding the Van Morrison song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BelfastGranny ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
"The majority of vocabulary found in Mid-Ulster English (but not standard English) comes from Scots and Gaelic. Some examples are shown in the table below."
I assume you mean 'non-standard vocabularly'. Any sources for the claim that the majority comes from Scots and Gaelic. How much of it is also of English descent (often shared with Scots) but now archaic in standard English? [new poster] Strange, it gives us the spellings of the words even though Mid-Ulster English is basically just a collection of slang; in any document, essay etc. it's regarded as stupid to ever use these "non-standard words". Oh, and it depends where you are - there are many who do not use the word "bake" etc. It really depends, if you want to get beaten up, you use "big words" and normal langugae, otherwise you use this for oral communication. 82.18.181.78 22:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Bake is simply a phonetic spelling of beak. The /e/ realisation is explained in the article under vowels. The examples are simply colourful extentions of meaning.
I have no idea where you are getting this information from, but as someone who has lived in Ulster my whole life, the so-called "corrections" are scarily nonsensical.
1. "Craic" is used as often as "crack". There are no phonetic differences, but if you look at signs outside pubs, etc., it is spelt both ways.
2. Of course the majority of Mid-Ulster vocabulary is going to be from Gaelic and Scots. There's hardly a wee bit of ambiguity here. Nevertheless, I have not corrected this, as this makes sense as well.
3. "Beak" is very misleading. It is not just phonetic: I have taken this spelling from the Scots word "bake", meaning face, although the more common word would be "fizog". In a rare instance where it would be written, it would most likely be spelt "bake". - 19:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?
Scots traditionally doesn't have grave accents as in dannèr. They were adopted in the 1990s by Ulster Scots enthusiasts wanting parity of esteem with Irish. If Irish has accents so must Ulster Scots. For the Scots forms see the SND.
Dannèr is spelt with an accent in Ulster-Scots, but I don't see the harm it makes to spell it the accented way. - 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?
How the unititiated are expected to recognise that the grave accent in the spelling dannèr is supposed to represent a dental consonant (is it a dental t or d?) in daunder will remain a mystery. The roman alphabet not having a particular symbol for such a realisation. Replacing the acute with the digraph th is equally confusing since people unfamiliar with the dialect (although this is more a feature of accent) are likely to interpret th as the voiced dental fricative /ð/, perhaps even the voiceless dental fricative /θ/, and those with a dental realisation of /d/ would realise it as such any way without any orthographic prompting. Since the obtuse spellings dannèr and danther are unlikely to illicit anything resembling the target realisation they are orthographically useless and simply a devise to exaggerate a minimal difference in pronunciation to a perceived standard. That would perhaps explain their scarcity in traditional dialect literature. Their recent use is a ploy to bamboozle rather than enlighten. 89.50.12.10 22:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Ach! and och! are unlikely to be from Irish ach though reinforcement is a possibility. Ach! and och! simply retain the velar fricative /x/ which has been lost in "standard" English Ah! and Oh!
Can anyone give me a source for mid-word consonant voicing for "k" and "p"? I'm not sure pepper is pronounced "pebber" and packet as "paggit". "Budder" for butter sounds correct, but I'm not sure where the other two come from, possibly anology with the voiced "t" but I'll not edit them out yet. - THE GREAT GAVINI { T- C} 13:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
A few things I propose changing in the phonology section:
I'm not sure about the "pebber" and "paggit" pronunciations for "pepper" and "packet" either, but I suppose it depends what people think. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but the middle of Ulster is Omagh; Belfast, Lisburn, Craigavon and Armagh are not at all Mid-Ulster. -- Pauric ( talk- contributions) 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The article of Mid Ulster English should be combined with Hiberno English or made into an article on Ulster English to include all accents in Ireland which form a brouge. This would include Donegal, a large part of Monaghan and Cavan and parts of Louth and Leitrim. This article is drawing political boundaries with accents which in Ireland makes no sense. For example in the article it says that the Tyrone accent/dialect has similarities with Hiberno English. But surely this is in reference to the similarities to the Donegal accent, which itself is more simliar to the Belfast accent than it is to the accents in Mayo or Dublin. Accents in Ireland change gradually across the country, and have absoulutely nothing to do with the Political Bounaries as this article would seem to suggest.
I propose either combining this article with Hiberno English, widening the boundaries of Ulster English to areas in Ireland which pronounce the "th" correctly and not with a "d" sound, or dividing the article into seperate accents such as West Tyrone, Antrim, Belfast etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.28.202 ( talk) 10:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Ihate to bring it up but, is there any kind of source for the map image Image:MidUlsterEnglish.png, or should it be considered Original Research? -- Setanta747 ( talk) 22:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks very much like the introductory map in the 1996 'Concise Ulster Dictionary', Oxford. 84.135.190.45 ( talk) 16:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
What ever it is, it seems to have had a multicoloured resurection as File:EnglishLanguageDialectsinUlster.CainiúintíBéarlainUlaidh.jpg Also used for this article - GOTO first post in this thread. Nogger ( talk) 12:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Is whore more likely to be pronounced like floor and door or sure and cure? ~ R. T. G 21:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the floor = flur, door = dur, window = windy and one = wan! Thats how it's said! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Seems Derry says it like teh Republic and Belfast says it more like the Scots, the latter less throaty for want of a better word, can someone confirm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.1.176.4 ( talk) 15:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
The article states that the English of Monaghan and Cavan have more in common with central and western Ireland. This is utter nonsense. Anyone familiar with the colloquial English spoken in Cavan, Monaghan as well as Louth and the northern half of Meath knows that these are Ulster forms of English. Indeed the map should be amended to show that the southernmost isogloss dividing dialects with distinctly Ulster pronunciations from more southerly Leinster English is somewhere in the northern half of County Meath. The English of Navan for example (as parodied in the "Navan Man" sketches on Today FM some years ago) shares features of both south Ulster and Mid-Leinster English. Indeed, Donn Piatt is his now out of print Gaelic Dialects of Leinster found distinctly Ulster Irish traits in placename and loanword evidence from as far south as north County Dublin. An Muimhneach Machnamhach ( talk) 13:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm from the Republic of Ireland, and I've NEVER heard somebody say wojus. I have friends from all over the Republic and I've never come across it before reading it on here, yet apparently it's a feature of all dialects of Hiberno-English?
I'm just saying I think this is a mistake, I can't have lived in a country all my life and not be aware of a figure of speech. As in, if somebody said that to me I wouldn't know what they meant.
Please can somebody clarify so we can change it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.251.137 ( talk) 20:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC) I agree, I have never heard it either it is certainly not used by anyone I know. I think we have a lot more words commonly words used exclusively here that warrant inclusion. (It sounds Polish to me!) by IrishGranny) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BelfastGranny ( talk • contribs) 16:01, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Possibly a loan word from Urdu: "bahnn gehecked" meaning a broken clay pot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.232.252 ( talk) 16:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
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I've removed the claim that dentalisation of /t/, /d/, etc. before /r/ is of Irish origin because it's demonstrably not, being shared with dialects of English in northern England, and Scots in Scotland, and not patterning in any way like the dental/non-dental distinction in Irish. See here for more details: http://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/23281273/PreRD_in_Scotland_paper_MAGUIRE.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.40.20 ( talk) 16:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
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The list of Ulster dialect vocabulary contains numerous spurious entries and omits many dialect words a visitor would be likely to encounter.
Bog, glen, grub, gob, hey, keen, malarkey, smidgen and tip are all standard English. The fact that a word like 'bog' is derived from Irish or Scots Gaelic is irrelevant. One might as well say that 'Tory' and 'whisk(e)y' are Ulster dialect expressions. 'Hey' and 'tip' are unmarked standard English (there is a dialect use of 'hey' in Ulster Scots areas). 'Grub', 'gob' 'malarkey' and 'smidgen' are slang or colloquialisms used throughout British English and beyond, and certainly not Ulster regional dialect. 'Glen' and 'keen' are mostly encountered in an Irish or Scottish context, but again that doesn't make them regional dialect as such.
'Oul', 'tae' and 'houl' and the apparently now-deleted 'feg' are simply 'eye dialect'. Do they really deserve an entry. We often see spellings such as 'laff' for Northern England and 'reely' for the London area to indicate a broad local accent. What's the difference?
Is there any evidence that 'cat-melodeon' has ever actually been uttered in actual natural speech? Banjax seems to be a recent import to most of the British Isles. Poke isn't ice-cream, its a serving of the stuff.
As for omissions, I suggest as widely used dialect expressions, hotpress (airing cupboard), snib (window or door catch), skelf (a splinter under the skin), ballot(raffle), shed (hair parting). bun (any small cake), working kitchen (kitchen), messages (shopping, even the physical items), dote (an adorable person), maggot (prankster), wick (bad), cat (bad), class (very good), grand (OK, fine), give off (complain), gravy ring (doughnut), take-on (scam), annoyed (bothered), polite (affected, 'lah-di-dah'), kitchen house (small terraced house)
Aviarist ( talk) 09:24, 8 May 2019 (UTC)Aviarist
Should Mid-Ulster English have its own article? I say yes since this is a historical dialect spoken by any Ulster people. That Northern Irish Historian ( talk) 15:29, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
I honestly cannot believe this./ Craic is a GAELIC word for fun or a good laugh.It has been adopted from the Irish language and is originally an Irish word. I have been studying Irish for the past 3 years and it DEFINITELY comes from Irish. This honestly is the first time I've ever heard of anyone spell it crack. Must be the way some people spell it for it to fit in better with the English language and its literature. And its not an English loan-word, its an Irish loan word borrowed from the Irish language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliketurtlesandotheranimalstoo ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Why anyone would use an Irish spelling of an English loan-word in the context of writing English will, I assume, remain a mystery.
I see no mystery there what so ever! Craic is the way it should be! Plain and simple!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Coming from working class Belfast I never heard the word " Crack" (except in relation to damage to a dropped plate etc) used until I was a teenager(1970's), at that time, at least in my area it was a buzz word used only by young people ie "What's the Crack?" meaning "What's happening" and it did not have to mean something good or fun. Late 70's & early 80's "Good Crack" became more commonly used. Maybe its an urban myth but it was my understanding that the more Gaelic form of spelling was simply adopted to denote the difference to outsiders between a good laugh and crack cocaine as demonstrated in the confusion surrounding the Van Morrison song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BelfastGranny ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
"The majority of vocabulary found in Mid-Ulster English (but not standard English) comes from Scots and Gaelic. Some examples are shown in the table below."
I assume you mean 'non-standard vocabularly'. Any sources for the claim that the majority comes from Scots and Gaelic. How much of it is also of English descent (often shared with Scots) but now archaic in standard English? [new poster] Strange, it gives us the spellings of the words even though Mid-Ulster English is basically just a collection of slang; in any document, essay etc. it's regarded as stupid to ever use these "non-standard words". Oh, and it depends where you are - there are many who do not use the word "bake" etc. It really depends, if you want to get beaten up, you use "big words" and normal langugae, otherwise you use this for oral communication. 82.18.181.78 22:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Bake is simply a phonetic spelling of beak. The /e/ realisation is explained in the article under vowels. The examples are simply colourful extentions of meaning.
I have no idea where you are getting this information from, but as someone who has lived in Ulster my whole life, the so-called "corrections" are scarily nonsensical.
1. "Craic" is used as often as "crack". There are no phonetic differences, but if you look at signs outside pubs, etc., it is spelt both ways.
2. Of course the majority of Mid-Ulster vocabulary is going to be from Gaelic and Scots. There's hardly a wee bit of ambiguity here. Nevertheless, I have not corrected this, as this makes sense as well.
3. "Beak" is very misleading. It is not just phonetic: I have taken this spelling from the Scots word "bake", meaning face, although the more common word would be "fizog". In a rare instance where it would be written, it would most likely be spelt "bake". - 19:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?
Scots traditionally doesn't have grave accents as in dannèr. They were adopted in the 1990s by Ulster Scots enthusiasts wanting parity of esteem with Irish. If Irish has accents so must Ulster Scots. For the Scots forms see the SND.
Dannèr is spelt with an accent in Ulster-Scots, but I don't see the harm it makes to spell it the accented way. - 19:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC) The Great Gavini what about ye?
How the unititiated are expected to recognise that the grave accent in the spelling dannèr is supposed to represent a dental consonant (is it a dental t or d?) in daunder will remain a mystery. The roman alphabet not having a particular symbol for such a realisation. Replacing the acute with the digraph th is equally confusing since people unfamiliar with the dialect (although this is more a feature of accent) are likely to interpret th as the voiced dental fricative /ð/, perhaps even the voiceless dental fricative /θ/, and those with a dental realisation of /d/ would realise it as such any way without any orthographic prompting. Since the obtuse spellings dannèr and danther are unlikely to illicit anything resembling the target realisation they are orthographically useless and simply a devise to exaggerate a minimal difference in pronunciation to a perceived standard. That would perhaps explain their scarcity in traditional dialect literature. Their recent use is a ploy to bamboozle rather than enlighten. 89.50.12.10 22:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Ach! and och! are unlikely to be from Irish ach though reinforcement is a possibility. Ach! and och! simply retain the velar fricative /x/ which has been lost in "standard" English Ah! and Oh!
Can anyone give me a source for mid-word consonant voicing for "k" and "p"? I'm not sure pepper is pronounced "pebber" and packet as "paggit". "Budder" for butter sounds correct, but I'm not sure where the other two come from, possibly anology with the voiced "t" but I'll not edit them out yet. - THE GREAT GAVINI { T- C} 13:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
A few things I propose changing in the phonology section:
I'm not sure about the "pebber" and "paggit" pronunciations for "pepper" and "packet" either, but I suppose it depends what people think. -- the GREAT Gavini 19:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but the middle of Ulster is Omagh; Belfast, Lisburn, Craigavon and Armagh are not at all Mid-Ulster. -- Pauric ( talk- contributions) 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The article of Mid Ulster English should be combined with Hiberno English or made into an article on Ulster English to include all accents in Ireland which form a brouge. This would include Donegal, a large part of Monaghan and Cavan and parts of Louth and Leitrim. This article is drawing political boundaries with accents which in Ireland makes no sense. For example in the article it says that the Tyrone accent/dialect has similarities with Hiberno English. But surely this is in reference to the similarities to the Donegal accent, which itself is more simliar to the Belfast accent than it is to the accents in Mayo or Dublin. Accents in Ireland change gradually across the country, and have absoulutely nothing to do with the Political Bounaries as this article would seem to suggest.
I propose either combining this article with Hiberno English, widening the boundaries of Ulster English to areas in Ireland which pronounce the "th" correctly and not with a "d" sound, or dividing the article into seperate accents such as West Tyrone, Antrim, Belfast etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.28.202 ( talk) 10:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Ihate to bring it up but, is there any kind of source for the map image Image:MidUlsterEnglish.png, or should it be considered Original Research? -- Setanta747 ( talk) 22:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks very much like the introductory map in the 1996 'Concise Ulster Dictionary', Oxford. 84.135.190.45 ( talk) 16:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
What ever it is, it seems to have had a multicoloured resurection as File:EnglishLanguageDialectsinUlster.CainiúintíBéarlainUlaidh.jpg Also used for this article - GOTO first post in this thread. Nogger ( talk) 12:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Is whore more likely to be pronounced like floor and door or sure and cure? ~ R. T. G 21:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, the floor = flur, door = dur, window = windy and one = wan! Thats how it's said! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madfire91 ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Seems Derry says it like teh Republic and Belfast says it more like the Scots, the latter less throaty for want of a better word, can someone confirm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.1.176.4 ( talk) 15:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
The article states that the English of Monaghan and Cavan have more in common with central and western Ireland. This is utter nonsense. Anyone familiar with the colloquial English spoken in Cavan, Monaghan as well as Louth and the northern half of Meath knows that these are Ulster forms of English. Indeed the map should be amended to show that the southernmost isogloss dividing dialects with distinctly Ulster pronunciations from more southerly Leinster English is somewhere in the northern half of County Meath. The English of Navan for example (as parodied in the "Navan Man" sketches on Today FM some years ago) shares features of both south Ulster and Mid-Leinster English. Indeed, Donn Piatt is his now out of print Gaelic Dialects of Leinster found distinctly Ulster Irish traits in placename and loanword evidence from as far south as north County Dublin. An Muimhneach Machnamhach ( talk) 13:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm from the Republic of Ireland, and I've NEVER heard somebody say wojus. I have friends from all over the Republic and I've never come across it before reading it on here, yet apparently it's a feature of all dialects of Hiberno-English?
I'm just saying I think this is a mistake, I can't have lived in a country all my life and not be aware of a figure of speech. As in, if somebody said that to me I wouldn't know what they meant.
Please can somebody clarify so we can change it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.251.137 ( talk) 20:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC) I agree, I have never heard it either it is certainly not used by anyone I know. I think we have a lot more words commonly words used exclusively here that warrant inclusion. (It sounds Polish to me!) by IrishGranny) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BelfastGranny ( talk • contribs) 16:01, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Possibly a loan word from Urdu: "bahnn gehecked" meaning a broken clay pot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.232.252 ( talk) 16:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the claim that dentalisation of /t/, /d/, etc. before /r/ is of Irish origin because it's demonstrably not, being shared with dialects of English in northern England, and Scots in Scotland, and not patterning in any way like the dental/non-dental distinction in Irish. See here for more details: http://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/23281273/PreRD_in_Scotland_paper_MAGUIRE.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.40.20 ( talk) 16:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
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The list of Ulster dialect vocabulary contains numerous spurious entries and omits many dialect words a visitor would be likely to encounter.
Bog, glen, grub, gob, hey, keen, malarkey, smidgen and tip are all standard English. The fact that a word like 'bog' is derived from Irish or Scots Gaelic is irrelevant. One might as well say that 'Tory' and 'whisk(e)y' are Ulster dialect expressions. 'Hey' and 'tip' are unmarked standard English (there is a dialect use of 'hey' in Ulster Scots areas). 'Grub', 'gob' 'malarkey' and 'smidgen' are slang or colloquialisms used throughout British English and beyond, and certainly not Ulster regional dialect. 'Glen' and 'keen' are mostly encountered in an Irish or Scottish context, but again that doesn't make them regional dialect as such.
'Oul', 'tae' and 'houl' and the apparently now-deleted 'feg' are simply 'eye dialect'. Do they really deserve an entry. We often see spellings such as 'laff' for Northern England and 'reely' for the London area to indicate a broad local accent. What's the difference?
Is there any evidence that 'cat-melodeon' has ever actually been uttered in actual natural speech? Banjax seems to be a recent import to most of the British Isles. Poke isn't ice-cream, its a serving of the stuff.
As for omissions, I suggest as widely used dialect expressions, hotpress (airing cupboard), snib (window or door catch), skelf (a splinter under the skin), ballot(raffle), shed (hair parting). bun (any small cake), working kitchen (kitchen), messages (shopping, even the physical items), dote (an adorable person), maggot (prankster), wick (bad), cat (bad), class (very good), grand (OK, fine), give off (complain), gravy ring (doughnut), take-on (scam), annoyed (bothered), polite (affected, 'lah-di-dah'), kitchen house (small terraced house)
Aviarist ( talk) 09:24, 8 May 2019 (UTC)Aviarist
Should Mid-Ulster English have its own article? I say yes since this is a historical dialect spoken by any Ulster people. That Northern Irish Historian ( talk) 15:29, 21 June 2023 (UTC)