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Original poster User:SuperDude115 requested page move to "undivided expressway". Ken Gallager ( talk) 15:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Reason being is because super-4 is mentioned on this article and there are some examples of a super-4 that I want mentioned. -- SuperDude 01:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like the term "Super-4" to have it's own page since more examples and details for it should be put in Wikipedia. -- SuperDude 23:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
In fact, I oppose the term "undivided expressway" because super-2 and super-4 expressways are NOT intended to be undivided. Super-2 and Super-4 are usually the intermediate construction phases (not final phases) of a freeway project.
According to these highway websites, super-4 usually does refer to a divided expressway that still has at-grade intersections.
www.expresswaysite.com
www.onthighways.com/highway_40.htm (a multi-lane divided highway but with at-grade intersections)
The term "Super-2" or "Super-4" has perhaps never been used to describe undivided roads. There are very few examples of "undivided super-4" roads. Rare examples include Ontario Highway 27 within the City of Toronto, but I believe that it is an arterial rather than an expressway. International bridges (i.e. Ambassador bridge between Windsor and Detroit) are often known as super-4s on maps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.206.28 ( talk) 22:59, 5 July 2005 (UTC)
FOR THE LAST BLOODY TIME - Highway 40 is an EXPRESSWAY. Not a freeway, not a Super-whatever, a god damn EXPRESSWAY! END OF BLOODY STORY! Snickerdo 8 July 2005 05:32 (UTC)
This is the last time I will post anything to this :talk in regards to this issue. Some references, since you can't seem to grasp reality on your own:
Super-2 : A controlled-access freeway with two lanes and without a center median. Super-4s are undivided 4-lane freeways. A Super-2 Expressway is a Super-2 with occasional at-grade intersections. [1]
A controlled-access freeway with two lanes and usually without a center median. Super 4s are undivided 4-lane freeways. A Super 2 Expressway is a Super 2 with occasional at-grade intersections; some states call these Super 2s. [2]
YOU ARE WRONG. I know that you like to use your own personal opinion and claim it as fact (see 400-Series Highway, 400-series standards section), but the rest of the world knows otherwise. Stop defacing these articles, or I will go further up the chain to ensure that your erroneous edits are prevented from being saved on Wikipedia. Snickerdo 8 July 2005 05:43 (UTC)
No need to get excited. Plus, you are violating the spirit of wikipedia if you insist on a monopoly. I am not defacing this article, I am merely suggesting a more logical definition to complement yours. The definition of super-x varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and I already found a contradictory account to your example. That mtrfaq is not the "bible" that every transportation authority adheres to. It admits that there are discrepencies in other terms, notably freeway and expressway.
Logically, an "undivided 4-lane freeway" makes no logical sense in practical and safety terms because the lack of median barrier reduces the possible speeds. The problem with your definition of super-x is that you have a fixation on the "undivided" aspect. In fact, your examples of super-2 and super-4 have not much in common other than "undivided" and "lack of property access"; your examples have entirely different purposes with a super-2 likely to be upgraded in the future to a full freeway while a super-4 is stuck where it is because of a lack of median. Your super-4 example in that case is more akin to the Highway 7 (York Region) than a potential freeway.
Say we have a super-2 expressway with at-grade intersections, but enough right-of-way to twin it and replace the at-grade with interchanges and overpasses for a multilane freeway. Say we twin that super-2 but leave the at-grade intersections for the time being. Does a twinned super-2 stop being a super-x just because it is no longer "undivided"? Keep in mind that a super-2 that is twinned allows for higher speeds due to the median barrier even if at-grade intersections remain. Then what if interchanges/overpasses replace all at-grade intersections? Does it become super again as a superhighway or full freeway?
Thus, super-4 expressway should apply to a 4 lane divided road with at-grade intersections, but with right-of way to replace them with interchanges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.206.116 ( talk) 15:04, 8 July 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm this stretch is still a super-2? AFAIK, it's been upgraded to a 4 lane divided freeway all the way to the Canadian border. LoveOfFate talk 03:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I found that US 167 in El Dorado is not a super 2. [4]. Its intersection with AR 7 is controlled [5], but that's about it. Nova SS 04:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ohio:
National Freight Transportation Workshop Proceedings:
Semisequicentennial Transportation Conference Proceedings
It looks like most official (non-roadgeek) definitions are what's referred to here as a "super-2 expressway". I'm thinking of moving this article to two-lane freeway or undivided freeway, while super two should deal with the actual definition. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 18:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The article on Ontario highway 16/416 links here. The (former) Ontario 16 highway (Ogdensburg NY - Ottawa ON) did use what is now the northbound 416 freeway from Johnstown to Manotick as a two-lane highway with a posted speed limit of 56mph (90km/h) instead of the 50mph (80km/h) in use on most other two-lane Ontario highways, but is this enough to qualify it as a two-lane freeway or super-two if (before the rest of the 416 was constructed):
So basically an undivided two-lane road with level crossings at all intersections. Sure, it was planned and built to be routed on the path of what was later to be a freeway, but (other than the wide right-of-way and the absence of any buildings at roadside) what makes this a two-lane freeway as opposed to just another provincial highway in the middle of nowhere? -- carlb 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It's hard to tell, as the article doesn't clearly define a two-lane freeway (versus a regular two-lane highway), but would the Natchez Trace Parkway (and possibly other NPS parkways, such as the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Colonial Parkway, although I'm not personally familiar with them) be considered two-lane freeways? They (at least the Natchez Trace) are limited access (and do not stop for cross traffic ever), contained in their own right-of-way, and feel very much like driving a two-lane freeway (although the NPS keeps the speed limits deliberately low--50, in the case of the Natchez Trace, lower on the others, I think, despite road conditions being fine for 65, 70 or higher). I didn't want to add them to this article without checking first. Thoughts? cluth 08:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
...is actually a mixture of 4 lanes (southern state park boundary to exit 34A, and exit 34C to northern state park boundary), 3 lanes (2 northbound, 1 southbound) in the southern portion of the Notch, and 2 lanes northward to exit 34C. No, I don't recall the exact mile marker where the second northbound lane drops out, but it's well north of exit 34A (where the second southbound lane reappears). The official Parkway (designated by white-on-brown informational signs) includes a long stretch of 4-lane interstate-grade road with a 45 MPH speed limit in the southern section of FNSP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.78.7.125 ( talk) 19:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
This article and discussion may be suffering from a natural US bias, since most of us haven't had the opportunity to drive across that big lake between the US and Europe. But it looks like some similar road types exist over there:
Both articles have rudimentary sections dealing with US applications. It seems like for the non-roadgeek community, it would be helpful to merge the articles into an overview of road types that don't quite reach the bar of four-lane-plus, fully-controlled-access. For us roadgeeks, we badly need our own roadwiki, where we can define every possible permutation of highway type and designation. If the Trekkies can have their Memory Alpha, why can't we? -- Robertb-dc 22:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
No one uses the term two-lane expressway except to describe roads like the old U.S. 395 in Mono County (that is, two lanes of opposing traffic, with a wide separation, but with at-grade intersections). The term two-lane expressway is NOT used in the way in which it is defined in this article. The term two-lane freeway is much more common in the published literature.
I am countering Vegaswikian's extremely poorly thought-out page move in a few days. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 13:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The photo given does not seem to depict an expressway; perhaps an additional photo would clarify. Bwrs ( talk) 20:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Are four lane undivided freeways really much rarer? They are fairly common in South Africa in more rural areas. A good example is the N3; from the Buccleuch interchange in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg to Villiers it is an eight, six or four lane divided freeway and then from Villiers to Warden a four lane undivided freeway. From Warden to Harrismith there is a gap in the freeway because there are at-grade intersections. Around Harrismith there is a four lane undivided freeway bypass and then another non-freeway section to just past Van Reenen. From Van Reenen to the R103 interchange is 4-lane undivided and then from there on to Durban 4 to 8 lane divided freeway.
This is a typical section:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Roodepoort,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.514185,39.506836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Roodepoort,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&t=k&layer=c&cbll=-27.028864,28.61647&panoid=t1LtgGYS1Rlw489z6tTOrQ&cbp=12,141.34,,0,8.8&ll=-27.029145,28.616756&spn=0.003417,0.004823&z=18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.72.129 ( talk) 18:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 5 7 18:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Two-lane expressway → Two-lane freeway – User:Vegaswikian improperly moved Two-lane freeway to Two-lane expressway on 24 October 2008. I pointed out on 29 May 2009 exactly why that was a really bad idea because the latter term is applied only to a very narrow set of roads, which are at most a small subset of the kinds actually addressed in the article. As six years have elapsed and User:Vegaswikian has failed to defend his/her use of the wrong term, I suggest it is time to move this article back to where it belongs. --Relisted. George Ho ( talk) 00:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC) Coolcaesar ( talk) 16:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The term is not used in the UK, nor I believe in European languages, so it is pure synth to extrapolate that they exist/do not exist. Dual/single carriageway are UK terms, but they do not have the same associations/definitions used here. Pincrete ( talk) 11:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
This is for the benefit of people who still don't understand the difference, which was what held up the proposed move back in May 2015.
Go look at California State Route 108 in Sonora, California and U.S. Route 101 near Willits, California on Google Street View. The Sonora Bypass (completed 2013) is a two-lane expressway. The Willits Bypass (completed 2016) is mostly a two-lane freeway, except for a very short four-lane section just south of the town.
Notice how both bypasses were built as two lanes wide, one in each direction, with broad shoulders and no center divider. Both have access control in the sense of no driveways.
Here is what the Willits Bypass has that the Sonora Bypass does not:
It is really that simple. And yes, those small differences matter. User restrictions and no at-grade intersections means the probability is significantly reduced of T-bone side crashes and of striking pedestrians in the roadway at 55 mph. Which is why the speed limit can be set higher at 65 mph. If you don't understand why that's important, you haven't seen enough car crash scenes or read enough accident reports. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 20:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I am concerned about the direction this article is taking. Do we really need to list every single instance of a two-lane expressway? It seems US-centric but if we added the rest of the world it would likely be super long. This sort of list also can result in original research. Rs chen 7754 21:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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It is requested that a photograph be
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The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Original poster User:SuperDude115 requested page move to "undivided expressway". Ken Gallager ( talk) 15:21, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Reason being is because super-4 is mentioned on this article and there are some examples of a super-4 that I want mentioned. -- SuperDude 01:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I would like the term "Super-4" to have it's own page since more examples and details for it should be put in Wikipedia. -- SuperDude 23:57, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
In fact, I oppose the term "undivided expressway" because super-2 and super-4 expressways are NOT intended to be undivided. Super-2 and Super-4 are usually the intermediate construction phases (not final phases) of a freeway project.
According to these highway websites, super-4 usually does refer to a divided expressway that still has at-grade intersections.
www.expresswaysite.com
www.onthighways.com/highway_40.htm (a multi-lane divided highway but with at-grade intersections)
The term "Super-2" or "Super-4" has perhaps never been used to describe undivided roads. There are very few examples of "undivided super-4" roads. Rare examples include Ontario Highway 27 within the City of Toronto, but I believe that it is an arterial rather than an expressway. International bridges (i.e. Ambassador bridge between Windsor and Detroit) are often known as super-4s on maps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.206.28 ( talk) 22:59, 5 July 2005 (UTC)
FOR THE LAST BLOODY TIME - Highway 40 is an EXPRESSWAY. Not a freeway, not a Super-whatever, a god damn EXPRESSWAY! END OF BLOODY STORY! Snickerdo 8 July 2005 05:32 (UTC)
This is the last time I will post anything to this :talk in regards to this issue. Some references, since you can't seem to grasp reality on your own:
Super-2 : A controlled-access freeway with two lanes and without a center median. Super-4s are undivided 4-lane freeways. A Super-2 Expressway is a Super-2 with occasional at-grade intersections. [1]
A controlled-access freeway with two lanes and usually without a center median. Super 4s are undivided 4-lane freeways. A Super 2 Expressway is a Super 2 with occasional at-grade intersections; some states call these Super 2s. [2]
YOU ARE WRONG. I know that you like to use your own personal opinion and claim it as fact (see 400-Series Highway, 400-series standards section), but the rest of the world knows otherwise. Stop defacing these articles, or I will go further up the chain to ensure that your erroneous edits are prevented from being saved on Wikipedia. Snickerdo 8 July 2005 05:43 (UTC)
No need to get excited. Plus, you are violating the spirit of wikipedia if you insist on a monopoly. I am not defacing this article, I am merely suggesting a more logical definition to complement yours. The definition of super-x varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and I already found a contradictory account to your example. That mtrfaq is not the "bible" that every transportation authority adheres to. It admits that there are discrepencies in other terms, notably freeway and expressway.
Logically, an "undivided 4-lane freeway" makes no logical sense in practical and safety terms because the lack of median barrier reduces the possible speeds. The problem with your definition of super-x is that you have a fixation on the "undivided" aspect. In fact, your examples of super-2 and super-4 have not much in common other than "undivided" and "lack of property access"; your examples have entirely different purposes with a super-2 likely to be upgraded in the future to a full freeway while a super-4 is stuck where it is because of a lack of median. Your super-4 example in that case is more akin to the Highway 7 (York Region) than a potential freeway.
Say we have a super-2 expressway with at-grade intersections, but enough right-of-way to twin it and replace the at-grade with interchanges and overpasses for a multilane freeway. Say we twin that super-2 but leave the at-grade intersections for the time being. Does a twinned super-2 stop being a super-x just because it is no longer "undivided"? Keep in mind that a super-2 that is twinned allows for higher speeds due to the median barrier even if at-grade intersections remain. Then what if interchanges/overpasses replace all at-grade intersections? Does it become super again as a superhighway or full freeway?
Thus, super-4 expressway should apply to a 4 lane divided road with at-grade intersections, but with right-of way to replace them with interchanges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.38.206.116 ( talk) 15:04, 8 July 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm this stretch is still a super-2? AFAIK, it's been upgraded to a 4 lane divided freeway all the way to the Canadian border. LoveOfFate talk 03:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I found that US 167 in El Dorado is not a super 2. [4]. Its intersection with AR 7 is controlled [5], but that's about it. Nova SS 04:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Ohio:
National Freight Transportation Workshop Proceedings:
Semisequicentennial Transportation Conference Proceedings
It looks like most official (non-roadgeek) definitions are what's referred to here as a "super-2 expressway". I'm thinking of moving this article to two-lane freeway or undivided freeway, while super two should deal with the actual definition. -- SPUI ( T - C - RFC - Curpsbot problems) 18:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The article on Ontario highway 16/416 links here. The (former) Ontario 16 highway (Ogdensburg NY - Ottawa ON) did use what is now the northbound 416 freeway from Johnstown to Manotick as a two-lane highway with a posted speed limit of 56mph (90km/h) instead of the 50mph (80km/h) in use on most other two-lane Ontario highways, but is this enough to qualify it as a two-lane freeway or super-two if (before the rest of the 416 was constructed):
So basically an undivided two-lane road with level crossings at all intersections. Sure, it was planned and built to be routed on the path of what was later to be a freeway, but (other than the wide right-of-way and the absence of any buildings at roadside) what makes this a two-lane freeway as opposed to just another provincial highway in the middle of nowhere? -- carlb 14:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
It's hard to tell, as the article doesn't clearly define a two-lane freeway (versus a regular two-lane highway), but would the Natchez Trace Parkway (and possibly other NPS parkways, such as the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Colonial Parkway, although I'm not personally familiar with them) be considered two-lane freeways? They (at least the Natchez Trace) are limited access (and do not stop for cross traffic ever), contained in their own right-of-way, and feel very much like driving a two-lane freeway (although the NPS keeps the speed limits deliberately low--50, in the case of the Natchez Trace, lower on the others, I think, despite road conditions being fine for 65, 70 or higher). I didn't want to add them to this article without checking first. Thoughts? cluth 08:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
...is actually a mixture of 4 lanes (southern state park boundary to exit 34A, and exit 34C to northern state park boundary), 3 lanes (2 northbound, 1 southbound) in the southern portion of the Notch, and 2 lanes northward to exit 34C. No, I don't recall the exact mile marker where the second northbound lane drops out, but it's well north of exit 34A (where the second southbound lane reappears). The official Parkway (designated by white-on-brown informational signs) includes a long stretch of 4-lane interstate-grade road with a 45 MPH speed limit in the southern section of FNSP. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.78.7.125 ( talk) 19:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
This article and discussion may be suffering from a natural US bias, since most of us haven't had the opportunity to drive across that big lake between the US and Europe. But it looks like some similar road types exist over there:
Both articles have rudimentary sections dealing with US applications. It seems like for the non-roadgeek community, it would be helpful to merge the articles into an overview of road types that don't quite reach the bar of four-lane-plus, fully-controlled-access. For us roadgeeks, we badly need our own roadwiki, where we can define every possible permutation of highway type and designation. If the Trekkies can have their Memory Alpha, why can't we? -- Robertb-dc 22:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
No one uses the term two-lane expressway except to describe roads like the old U.S. 395 in Mono County (that is, two lanes of opposing traffic, with a wide separation, but with at-grade intersections). The term two-lane expressway is NOT used in the way in which it is defined in this article. The term two-lane freeway is much more common in the published literature.
I am countering Vegaswikian's extremely poorly thought-out page move in a few days. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 13:27, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The photo given does not seem to depict an expressway; perhaps an additional photo would clarify. Bwrs ( talk) 20:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Are four lane undivided freeways really much rarer? They are fairly common in South Africa in more rural areas. A good example is the N3; from the Buccleuch interchange in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg to Villiers it is an eight, six or four lane divided freeway and then from Villiers to Warden a four lane undivided freeway. From Warden to Harrismith there is a gap in the freeway because there are at-grade intersections. Around Harrismith there is a four lane undivided freeway bypass and then another non-freeway section to just past Van Reenen. From Van Reenen to the R103 interchange is 4-lane undivided and then from there on to Durban 4 to 8 lane divided freeway.
This is a typical section:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Roodepoort,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.514185,39.506836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Roodepoort,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&t=k&layer=c&cbll=-27.028864,28.61647&panoid=t1LtgGYS1Rlw489z6tTOrQ&cbp=12,141.34,,0,8.8&ll=-27.029145,28.616756&spn=0.003417,0.004823&z=18 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.72.129 ( talk) 18:30, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Number 5 7 18:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Two-lane expressway → Two-lane freeway – User:Vegaswikian improperly moved Two-lane freeway to Two-lane expressway on 24 October 2008. I pointed out on 29 May 2009 exactly why that was a really bad idea because the latter term is applied only to a very narrow set of roads, which are at most a small subset of the kinds actually addressed in the article. As six years have elapsed and User:Vegaswikian has failed to defend his/her use of the wrong term, I suggest it is time to move this article back to where it belongs. --Relisted. George Ho ( talk) 00:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC) Coolcaesar ( talk) 16:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The term is not used in the UK, nor I believe in European languages, so it is pure synth to extrapolate that they exist/do not exist. Dual/single carriageway are UK terms, but they do not have the same associations/definitions used here. Pincrete ( talk) 11:05, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
This is for the benefit of people who still don't understand the difference, which was what held up the proposed move back in May 2015.
Go look at California State Route 108 in Sonora, California and U.S. Route 101 near Willits, California on Google Street View. The Sonora Bypass (completed 2013) is a two-lane expressway. The Willits Bypass (completed 2016) is mostly a two-lane freeway, except for a very short four-lane section just south of the town.
Notice how both bypasses were built as two lanes wide, one in each direction, with broad shoulders and no center divider. Both have access control in the sense of no driveways.
Here is what the Willits Bypass has that the Sonora Bypass does not:
It is really that simple. And yes, those small differences matter. User restrictions and no at-grade intersections means the probability is significantly reduced of T-bone side crashes and of striking pedestrians in the roadway at 55 mph. Which is why the speed limit can be set higher at 65 mph. If you don't understand why that's important, you haven't seen enough car crash scenes or read enough accident reports. -- Coolcaesar ( talk) 20:10, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I am concerned about the direction this article is taking. Do we really need to list every single instance of a two-lane expressway? It seems US-centric but if we added the rest of the world it would likely be super long. This sort of list also can result in original research. Rs chen 7754 21:47, 31 December 2022 (UTC)