This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I stumbled upon this page by accident and must say it's subjective and missing information. By constant edits and locking it's obvious there are some problems. Turkish Croatia is a well known term used for the occupied Croatian land after Ottoman invasion in most of Europe but half of the text is dedicated to 20th century movements(?!) and efforts to deminish the term. Strange. Also the term was used far into 19th century which is obvious by the maps made in that period. I recommend some other source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.196.94 ( talk) 22:18, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Interesting colection of maps https://docplayer.org/72498198-Die-geostrategische-lage-des-bosnisch-herzegowinischen-raumes-im-suedosten-europas-gemaess-alten-geographischen-karten.html talking about Turkish Croatia. -- Čeha ( razgovor) 02:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
As we are all aware, this version has a lot of mistakes, inconsistencies, POV and similiar problems which contradict wiki rules. So my suggestion is simple. We should return the article in a state before santasa edits. Before the edit war. That should be in accordance to wiki rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceha ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the version before begining of the edit war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Turkish_Croatia&oldid=832946658 Čeha ( razgovor) 22:42, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
I also don't have any problems with edits from this version https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Turkish_Croatia&oldid=945790993 Čeha ( razgovor) 22:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
Agree the present version is rather POV. Bihac was the capital of Croatia once. Obviously now it is an integral part of Bosnia but it is rather disingenuous to suggest someone has to be so far right they are beyond the Ustasha to discuss the fact that the area was once inhabited by Croats.-- Calthinus ( talk) 15:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Ktrimi work is an excelent start. It's a history article, not a consiracy one... I would shorten 20th century part, expecialy part about greater croatian ideology. That parts should be transfered somwhere else. Also for Tvrtko realm I would refrase that. Southern and eastern part of Turkish Croatia was part of Hrvatinići Estates in Donji Kraji county under Tvrtko I realm? Čeha ( razgovor) 20:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
The page says, without citation, that the area was part of Tvrtko's realm. I am not an expert on this area, but this does not seem to be the case. See picture.-- Calthinus ( talk) 16:31, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Turkish Croatia is a name for the territory between the rivers Una and Vrbas which, until the Turkish conquest in the second half of the sixteenth century and its inclusion in the Bosnian pashalik, belonged to the medieval Croatian kingdom (but in large part also to medieval Bosnia under King Tvrtko I Kotromanic).Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
I agree with calthinus. I would also put that the home to mighty medieval families, like Hrvatinići and Babonići, bans and rulers of large territories. Čeha ( razgovor) 00:32, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Pinging Ktrimi991, Sadko, Calthinus, Ceha. I'm rather euphoric that the disciussion here actually has started moving. However, I will revert the article back to the version that was there when I helped Ceha start this discussion, not because I support one version or another. My point with the revert is that every change to this article now has to be based on some sort of consensus. If not, we will return to the same pattern of edit warring that has been the reason for this article being blocked for editing six times in less than a year. Hope you all behave... I now feel free to leave this discussion. Hope I will not have to return. Good luck, and regards! -- T*U ( talk) 17:17, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
far-rightto recall basic historical facts, while a term that was used centuries ago is oddly called a
neologism(is this just not knowing the English definition of that word, maybe?).-- Calthinus ( talk) 14:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
I fully agree with Mikola. It's historical article and the stuff from the nineties shouldn't be here, and expecialy not in this POV form. If someone wants to write about politics of Croatia, or it's first president, this should not be the place. More over, when Tuđman talks about Turkish Croatia he usualy talks just of Cazin krajina (where inter Bosniak/Muslim civil war happened and which was saved by croatian intervention), the small part in the north west, mostly west of Una river, not Vrbas (or Bosna).... Čeha ( razgovor) 13:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
I would use previous chapter;
Turkish Croatia[1][2] or Ottoman Croatia (Croatian: Turska Hrvatska, German: Türkisch Kroatien, Italian: Croazia turca, French: Croatie turque, Dutch: Kroatië osmaanse) ) was a part of the territory[3] of the Croatian Kingdom occupied by the Ottoman Empire during the 15th and 16th century. In the 19th century, after it became clear that the Croatian population,[4]owing to that occupation, permanently perished or was displaced, the new name Bosanska Krajina(Bosnian Frontier) got through and replaced the old term of Turkish Croatia. It remained so until today.
Or maybe; Turkish Croatia[1][2] or Ottoman Croatia (Croatian: Turska Hrvatska, German: Türkisch Kroatien, Italian: Croazia turca, French: Croatie turque, Dutch: Kroatië osmaanse) ) was a part of the territory[3] of the Croatian Kingdom CONQUERED by the Ottoman Empire during the 15th and 16th century.
Simple definition. It was part of Croatian kingdom before the ottoman conquest....
What do you think? Čeha ( razgovor) 00:04, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Turkish Croatia is historical context, and Bosnian Krajina is geographical. Also Turkish Croatia is larger teritory, besides today Bosnian Krajina, it included, Lika, Banovina, northern Dalmatia, upper Vrbas... Bosnian Krajina is just the vestige, remaining of it. There is no iredentism in history. Čeha ( razgovor) 00:23, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
References
The castles of Bosnia and Croatia (before 1523) belonged to the ban of Croatia and Slavonia, who was responsible for the supply of Jajca defended by local bans, and the regular headquarters of his army was mainly Bihacs. [1] [2] Very valuable information regarding history of Bihac article and history of Jajce article. But this information is indirectly related and to article of Turkish Croatia and Bosanska Krajina, considering that this part of Bosnia or its fortress was also under Croatian rule, which says that this is a historical fact. Given that this name (Turkish Croatia) was not promoted in the Yugoslav historiography because of understandable reasons, this does not mean that promotion of this term in more recent post-Yugoslav era means some nationalist term. This part of Bosnia was historically also part of Croatia and we must respect that. Mikola22 ( talk) 09:48, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
References
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I stumbled upon this page by accident and must say it's subjective and missing information. By constant edits and locking it's obvious there are some problems. Turkish Croatia is a well known term used for the occupied Croatian land after Ottoman invasion in most of Europe but half of the text is dedicated to 20th century movements(?!) and efforts to deminish the term. Strange. Also the term was used far into 19th century which is obvious by the maps made in that period. I recommend some other source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.196.94 ( talk) 22:18, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Interesting colection of maps https://docplayer.org/72498198-Die-geostrategische-lage-des-bosnisch-herzegowinischen-raumes-im-suedosten-europas-gemaess-alten-geographischen-karten.html talking about Turkish Croatia. -- Čeha ( razgovor) 02:14, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
As we are all aware, this version has a lot of mistakes, inconsistencies, POV and similiar problems which contradict wiki rules. So my suggestion is simple. We should return the article in a state before santasa edits. Before the edit war. That should be in accordance to wiki rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceha ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the version before begining of the edit war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Turkish_Croatia&oldid=832946658 Čeha ( razgovor) 22:42, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
I also don't have any problems with edits from this version https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Turkish_Croatia&oldid=945790993 Čeha ( razgovor) 22:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
Agree the present version is rather POV. Bihac was the capital of Croatia once. Obviously now it is an integral part of Bosnia but it is rather disingenuous to suggest someone has to be so far right they are beyond the Ustasha to discuss the fact that the area was once inhabited by Croats.-- Calthinus ( talk) 15:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Ktrimi work is an excelent start. It's a history article, not a consiracy one... I would shorten 20th century part, expecialy part about greater croatian ideology. That parts should be transfered somwhere else. Also for Tvrtko realm I would refrase that. Southern and eastern part of Turkish Croatia was part of Hrvatinići Estates in Donji Kraji county under Tvrtko I realm? Čeha ( razgovor) 20:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
The page says, without citation, that the area was part of Tvrtko's realm. I am not an expert on this area, but this does not seem to be the case. See picture.-- Calthinus ( talk) 16:31, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Turkish Croatia is a name for the territory between the rivers Una and Vrbas which, until the Turkish conquest in the second half of the sixteenth century and its inclusion in the Bosnian pashalik, belonged to the medieval Croatian kingdom (but in large part also to medieval Bosnia under King Tvrtko I Kotromanic).Ktrimi991 ( talk) 16:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
I agree with calthinus. I would also put that the home to mighty medieval families, like Hrvatinići and Babonići, bans and rulers of large territories. Čeha ( razgovor) 00:32, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Pinging Ktrimi991, Sadko, Calthinus, Ceha. I'm rather euphoric that the disciussion here actually has started moving. However, I will revert the article back to the version that was there when I helped Ceha start this discussion, not because I support one version or another. My point with the revert is that every change to this article now has to be based on some sort of consensus. If not, we will return to the same pattern of edit warring that has been the reason for this article being blocked for editing six times in less than a year. Hope you all behave... I now feel free to leave this discussion. Hope I will not have to return. Good luck, and regards! -- T*U ( talk) 17:17, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
far-rightto recall basic historical facts, while a term that was used centuries ago is oddly called a
neologism(is this just not knowing the English definition of that word, maybe?).-- Calthinus ( talk) 14:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
I fully agree with Mikola. It's historical article and the stuff from the nineties shouldn't be here, and expecialy not in this POV form. If someone wants to write about politics of Croatia, or it's first president, this should not be the place. More over, when Tuđman talks about Turkish Croatia he usualy talks just of Cazin krajina (where inter Bosniak/Muslim civil war happened and which was saved by croatian intervention), the small part in the north west, mostly west of Una river, not Vrbas (or Bosna).... Čeha ( razgovor) 13:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
I would use previous chapter;
Turkish Croatia[1][2] or Ottoman Croatia (Croatian: Turska Hrvatska, German: Türkisch Kroatien, Italian: Croazia turca, French: Croatie turque, Dutch: Kroatië osmaanse) ) was a part of the territory[3] of the Croatian Kingdom occupied by the Ottoman Empire during the 15th and 16th century. In the 19th century, after it became clear that the Croatian population,[4]owing to that occupation, permanently perished or was displaced, the new name Bosanska Krajina(Bosnian Frontier) got through and replaced the old term of Turkish Croatia. It remained so until today.
Or maybe; Turkish Croatia[1][2] or Ottoman Croatia (Croatian: Turska Hrvatska, German: Türkisch Kroatien, Italian: Croazia turca, French: Croatie turque, Dutch: Kroatië osmaanse) ) was a part of the territory[3] of the Croatian Kingdom CONQUERED by the Ottoman Empire during the 15th and 16th century.
Simple definition. It was part of Croatian kingdom before the ottoman conquest....
What do you think? Čeha ( razgovor) 00:04, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Turkish Croatia is historical context, and Bosnian Krajina is geographical. Also Turkish Croatia is larger teritory, besides today Bosnian Krajina, it included, Lika, Banovina, northern Dalmatia, upper Vrbas... Bosnian Krajina is just the vestige, remaining of it. There is no iredentism in history. Čeha ( razgovor) 00:23, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
References
The castles of Bosnia and Croatia (before 1523) belonged to the ban of Croatia and Slavonia, who was responsible for the supply of Jajca defended by local bans, and the regular headquarters of his army was mainly Bihacs. [1] [2] Very valuable information regarding history of Bihac article and history of Jajce article. But this information is indirectly related and to article of Turkish Croatia and Bosanska Krajina, considering that this part of Bosnia or its fortress was also under Croatian rule, which says that this is a historical fact. Given that this name (Turkish Croatia) was not promoted in the Yugoslav historiography because of understandable reasons, this does not mean that promotion of this term in more recent post-Yugoslav era means some nationalist term. This part of Bosnia was historically also part of Croatia and we must respect that. Mikola22 ( talk) 09:48, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
References