This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Trump administration political interference with science agencies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a draft of what I hope will become an article about political pressure on science and health agencies by the administration of Donald Trump. At this time I have been adding material without any organization, just so that I can get it into the article with proper attribution noting the article I copied it from. So far all of my material is about COVID-19 issues, which I am most familiar with. I think I will try to get that into shape before gathering material on any other subject. I am as yet undecided how much territory this article will cover: whether to limit it to health agencies, which I am familiar with, or try to include environmental issues as well. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Suggestions copied from User:Neutrality's talk page. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Possible titles, seemingly way too long:
Probably starting with "Trump administration" is better than putting it at the end.
I wonder if there is a more concise way to say this? -- MelanieN ( talk) 03:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Great sources! and good info for the "environmental science" part of the article. Can you suggest any WP articles that already cover some of this material, so that I can pirate it with an "attribution" edit summary instead of having to research it de novo?
I still wonder about the organization if we cover science and health in one article. Should we have one huge Level 2 heading for all the health stuff, and another Level 2 heading for environmental stuff? -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:17, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Once we use the terms "interference", "pressure", "silence", "politicize" and the like, we are engaged in POV-pushing. The fact is that the US Constitution gives the executive the executive the authority to run the agencies. It is up to Congress to establish the limits on how the executive does this. What we see these days (whether we like it or not) is push-back from those who do not like how the agencies have been pressured or interfered with in the past. SO I suggest the following as a NPOV title for this article: " Trump administration changes to science agency policies". This title will leave the article open to explain the changes and to grouse about how wonderful or evil the changes have been. – S. Rich ( talk) 06:46, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes, presidents have the power to set policy. What is reported here is not changes in policy. It is cases of political appointees interfering with or obstructing the actual, stated mission of the agencies or the proper, assigned work of the scientists who work there. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:25, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
We follow the sources here. The sources state, very very clearly, that the administration has worked across many agencies to politicize science; interfere with, silence, or ignore scientists; and contradict, delay, hold up, or downplay scientific agencies' findings, conclusions, and recommendations. The objections I see above basically boil down to "I don't like it," unsubstantiated conclusions, or statements along the lines of "the administration has legal power to do what they do." None of this demonstrates anything improper about the article. Neutrality talk 01:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
I hope this "article" is a joke. Polymath uk ( talk) 22:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
There is much content here which is plainly not political interference.I read through the article looking for such content. I removed the NASA section because I could find no evidence that the threatened defunding of NASA's Earth Science division had actually taken place. If you would like to point out other specific content that you believe is not political interference, please specify and let's talk about it. Regarding "lists only bad things", I agree with Neutrality: we report what sources report; we can't distort the article to achieve a false balance. There basically just isn't much reporting out there that defends these actions or claims they aren't interference. One exception was Caputo's defense of his actions, after he left HHS, and his comments ARE included here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:47, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
We don't make content decisions based on whether something reflects well or badly on a person.Yes, you are. Both of you are plainly doing this in creating this article. I'm not saying that there are any good things being missed. You're both competent editors and you both obviously knew that you were setting out to create an article intended to reflect negatively on the subject. There is nobody else for who Wikipedia has articles which are just lists of bad things that they've done, and there are obviously many notable people who have done bad things. The issue is certainly not that there are good things about Trump that are being left out. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 21:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
There is nobody else for who Wikipedia has articles which are just lists of bad things that they've done: Well, we do have Veracity of statements by Donald Trump and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations and Donald Trump Access Hollywood tape and Trump–Ukraine scandal. But it’s not just Trump. Check out Joe Biden sexual assault allegation. Then there’s Hillary Clinton email controversy and Hillary Clinton cattle futures controversy. Let’s not forget George W. Bush military service controversy, Bill Clinton sexual assault and misconduct allegations, Bill Clinton pardon controversy, Bill Clinton judicial appointment controversies - well, you get the idea. Articles about a public figure that are about something negative are actually very common here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC) P.S. In any case, this article is mostly not about things done by Trump personally; it's about things done by his administration. Hence the title; it says "Trump administration interference," not "Donald Trump political interference". And not just individual actions but a pattern of actions, widespread through many agencies, so unusual and noteworthy that it has been commented on by major nonpartisan sources like the National Institute of Sciences, the National Institute of Medicine, and the New England Journal of Medicine (a journal that has never before taken a political stand in its 200-year history). This is a real thing, and it needs an article. -- MelanieN ( talk) 08:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
This is a copy/paste from a recent discussion on Srich32977's Talk. We may have determined the new article title, based on existing WP practices, and are now looking for any additional comments prior to a proposed name change to Science policy of the Trump administration. Discussion follows.
Would you be okay with this title: Trump administration politicization of science? Johncdraper ( talk) 06:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! Johncdraper ( talk) 08:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughtful discussion about this, Johncdraper and S. Rich! It actually might be a good idea to have an article here called Science policy of the Trump administration. You might consider writing one. However, this is not that article. This article is not about his policies with regard to science. It is about actions, mostly by political appointees in the administration rather than by Trump himself, which are not in pursuit of any stated policy; nobody has publicly stated a policy that "science actions must support the president's re-election" or "government scientists must publicly agree with whatever the president says". (Well, nobody but Caputo.) These actions are well documented and important, per Reliable Sources, but they are not about anything that could be regarded as "policy". So I oppose "science policy" as a title for this article; it doesn't match the content. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:58, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
S. Rich, at first I thought your only objection was to the title of the article. You feel it is not neutral. You proposed “Science policy” but that does not describe it. (Although I agree that a “Science policy of the Trump administration” article would be good to have, and if you care to write it I will help.) I was going to suggest something like “Science agencies of the Trump administration,” although that doesn’t describe it either. I’m definitely willing to talk about the title, as long as it is a title that accurately reflects what the article is about.
But now you sound as if you want to eliminate the whole article. I will strongly fight any attempt to blow up or otherwise suppress this article. It is about a real, well documented, important pattern of activity by political appointees, and sometimes by Trump himself, to interfere with or change facts or silence the science agencies of the government. It is not a matter of a few “rogue officials” going “outside their lane”; it is an administration-wide pattern, so blatant that it has been called out by three of our most respected, non-partisan institutions that have never before commented on any political subject. [2] [3] This is not just “a topic in the news”, it is a well documented pattern of government behavior.
As for “neutrality”, such as presenting information to debunk or disagree with this pattern - well, if you can find such sources we will include them. But basically we haven’t been able to present the “the other side” because there is no other side; that is, no one has denied the truth of any of the reports in this article. If they did, we would report it. But it’s the opposite: Caputo has affirmed his part in it, [4] Stephen Hahn has apologized for his part in it, [5] and the Inspector General of the Department of Commerce has confirmed it. [6]
You say the article is POV because it documents something negative, but so do all the other articles I Iisted above to show that documenting something negative about a public figure or a government institution is neither against the rules or unusual; we do it whenever Reliable Source reporting supports it. Your argument is sounding more and more like you just personally object to this topic. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
We also have an article called Politicization of science, and it has a subsection "Trump administration" that reports a few of these incidents. We could transfer the entire contents of this article there, but it would overwhelm the article so I don't advise it. A couple of incidents won't convey the main point that this is a pattern, but describing the pattern without the incidents would be inadequately sourced. About counterarguments, I would love to see the counterarguments so I can include them here; can you give me links to a few of them? -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Let me try this approach. We have a List of federal agencies in the United States article. Given the massive complexity of the US government, this list is an ill-fated attempt to include everything in the USG. Please note the list has 1,400 "agencies" with MOS:LISTBULLETS. Well, how many of these agencies, offices, bureaus, activities, etc. are related to science? (I'll let you do the counting.) And how many of them have suffered from political interference? (Again, feel free to give us a count.) Back to our concern, WP's Donald Trump-related policy/articles include the following: Infrastructure policy of Donald Trump, Social policy of Donald Trump, Cannabis policy of the Donald Trump administration, Space policy of the Donald Trump administration, Immigration policy of Donald Trump, Trump administration family separation policy, Economic policy of Donald Trump, Environmental policy of the Donald Trump administration, and Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. Since we have these articles, would it be proper to create articles that have "Trump administration political interference with economic/space/environmental/infrastructure/immigration agencies"? Of course not! (These article titles now comply with WP policy.) If you will agree with me let's go with a variation of MelanieN's suggestion above. The title "Trump administration science agencies" incorrectly implies that different science agencies are uniquely his. However, Science policy of the Donald Trump administration works. Most importantly, the article title is NPOV. It is specific to "science". It pertains, indirectly, to federal science agencies. It is self-limiting to the 2016–202x timeframe. And it allows for editors to exposit on the Wicked, Weird, and Evil interference that Trump (and his minions) are inflicting upon the world and Wikipedia. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I completely agree. “Look at all the other agencies” is irrelevant; this article is about interference with science agencies, not with every agency that exists in the federal government. If there has been political interference with HUD or NASA, it has not been reported. But the attempts to disrupt science have been widely reported and widely condemned - precisely because science is about facts, and attempts to suppress or misreport facts are widely considered unwise and dangerous. Nobody (but Caputo) has defended the practice; nobody else has claimed that it is the administration’s policy for laypeople to overrule the consensus of professional scientists.
You all keep saying the article is POV. It is not; it is all sourced to Neutral Reliable Sources. If I could find counter-sources, people supporting the actions, I would add them to the article for balance - but except for Caputo I have not found any. I have asked you all multiple times to suggest some sources for justifications or counterarguments so that they can be added to the article; no luck.
So let me get back to the main point here: the title. This article is about a real, well-documented, important topic, so merging bits of it here and there to separate articles is not an option. A couple of you don’t like “political interference” in the title, even though that is what it is about. “Science policy of Donald Trump” or “Science policy of the Donald Trump administration” would be a misnomer for this article. It would also violate the principle of “least astonishment”, because it’s not about science policy, not at all. BTW it’s also not about Donald Trump himself. In many cases there is no evidence that he personally had anything to do with the reported actions; they were carried out by his appointed administrators, and if they were carried out because of some “policy,” that policy is a well guarded secret. This is certainly not about “Trump's views on science” as Onetwothreeip suggested. IMO any title which includes the name “Donald Trump” would be unfair and POV. I (reluctantly) suggested “Trump administration science agencies” but would prefer to keep the current title. Or would “Trump administration political influence on science agencies” be OK with you? -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Consensus against this move ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 05:14, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Trump administration political interference with science agencies → ? – Per the discussions above editors disagree whether the present title complies with WP:NPOVTITLE. Some say RS undisputedly shows there is political interference, thus justifying the present title. Others say the article title itself is POV. Suggested new titles include Science policy of the Donald Trump administration; Trump administration science agencies; Trump administration changes to science agency policies; and Trump administration efforts to interfere with, pressure, or silence federal government scientists. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources.. Political interference with science agencies by the Trump administration is a real and important phenomenon. It has been clearly identified as such by Reliable Sources [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] and by respected organizations that have never before made a political comment [12] [13] [14]. Actual instances of it have been documented and tallied by the Union of Concerned Scientists [15] and Columbia Law School [16]. Many of these sources refer to the subject as “attacks on science” rather than “political interference with science agencies,” but I prefer the "interference with science agencies" title as it is more precise and more neutral. This article should be called what it is actually about; the current title does that. As I have said before, an article about the Science policy of the Donald Trump administration could be very appropriate, but this is not that article, and calling it that would be deceptive. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
In the EPA section there is a paragraph about a report on the toxicity of TCE, prepared by the agency's scientists based on three years work. They submitted their draft report to the White House for approval. When the report was released, the draft had been completely rewritten by the White House to increase the permissible exposure level 500-fold. This paragraph has been tagged by S. Rich as "{{undue inline|reason=The concerns about TCE have been at issue for decades -- see TCE article and "junk science"|date=October 2020}}" I disagree with the "undue" assessment. The incident is a perfect example of what this article is about - the work of government scientists being overruled and rewritten for political reasons. Comments? -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
This paragraph was removed with the rationale that it duplicates other information in the section and misrepresents the qualifications of one person
. I don't quite follow how that applies, since it was summarizing
this story about Nina Witkofsky and Chester Moeller, who weren't mentioned elsewhere in the article that I can find. It looks to be new information (Before Witkofsky and Moeller, the Trump administration had appointed others at CDC in Atlanta who were viewed by staff with some suspicion. But none of the predecessors’ roles was so clearly to report internal agency business up to Washington, according to officials who talked to The AP.
Etc.) Anyway, it seems like the story can be used somewhere in the text, at least to supplement what's already there. Cheers,
XOR'easter (
talk) 19:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
This looks like it might fit somewhere in this article: Infuriated by the FDA's defiance in a showdown over the Trump administration's standards for authorizing a coronavirus vaccine, health secretary Alex Azar has spent recent weeks openly plotting the ouster of FDA chief Stephen Hahn.
Cancryn, Adam; Diamond, Dan (October 22, 2020).
"An angry Azar floats plans to oust FDA's Hahn".
Politico. Retrieved October 25, 2020.
XOR'easter (
talk) 21:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Trump administration political interference with science agencies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is a draft of what I hope will become an article about political pressure on science and health agencies by the administration of Donald Trump. At this time I have been adding material without any organization, just so that I can get it into the article with proper attribution noting the article I copied it from. So far all of my material is about COVID-19 issues, which I am most familiar with. I think I will try to get that into shape before gathering material on any other subject. I am as yet undecided how much territory this article will cover: whether to limit it to health agencies, which I am familiar with, or try to include environmental issues as well. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Suggestions copied from User:Neutrality's talk page. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
Possible titles, seemingly way too long:
Probably starting with "Trump administration" is better than putting it at the end.
I wonder if there is a more concise way to say this? -- MelanieN ( talk) 03:26, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
Great sources! and good info for the "environmental science" part of the article. Can you suggest any WP articles that already cover some of this material, so that I can pirate it with an "attribution" edit summary instead of having to research it de novo?
I still wonder about the organization if we cover science and health in one article. Should we have one huge Level 2 heading for all the health stuff, and another Level 2 heading for environmental stuff? -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:17, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Once we use the terms "interference", "pressure", "silence", "politicize" and the like, we are engaged in POV-pushing. The fact is that the US Constitution gives the executive the executive the authority to run the agencies. It is up to Congress to establish the limits on how the executive does this. What we see these days (whether we like it or not) is push-back from those who do not like how the agencies have been pressured or interfered with in the past. SO I suggest the following as a NPOV title for this article: " Trump administration changes to science agency policies". This title will leave the article open to explain the changes and to grouse about how wonderful or evil the changes have been. – S. Rich ( talk) 06:46, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes, presidents have the power to set policy. What is reported here is not changes in policy. It is cases of political appointees interfering with or obstructing the actual, stated mission of the agencies or the proper, assigned work of the scientists who work there. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:25, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
We follow the sources here. The sources state, very very clearly, that the administration has worked across many agencies to politicize science; interfere with, silence, or ignore scientists; and contradict, delay, hold up, or downplay scientific agencies' findings, conclusions, and recommendations. The objections I see above basically boil down to "I don't like it," unsubstantiated conclusions, or statements along the lines of "the administration has legal power to do what they do." None of this demonstrates anything improper about the article. Neutrality talk 01:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
I hope this "article" is a joke. Polymath uk ( talk) 22:03, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
There is much content here which is plainly not political interference.I read through the article looking for such content. I removed the NASA section because I could find no evidence that the threatened defunding of NASA's Earth Science division had actually taken place. If you would like to point out other specific content that you believe is not political interference, please specify and let's talk about it. Regarding "lists only bad things", I agree with Neutrality: we report what sources report; we can't distort the article to achieve a false balance. There basically just isn't much reporting out there that defends these actions or claims they aren't interference. One exception was Caputo's defense of his actions, after he left HHS, and his comments ARE included here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:47, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
We don't make content decisions based on whether something reflects well or badly on a person.Yes, you are. Both of you are plainly doing this in creating this article. I'm not saying that there are any good things being missed. You're both competent editors and you both obviously knew that you were setting out to create an article intended to reflect negatively on the subject. There is nobody else for who Wikipedia has articles which are just lists of bad things that they've done, and there are obviously many notable people who have done bad things. The issue is certainly not that there are good things about Trump that are being left out. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 21:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
There is nobody else for who Wikipedia has articles which are just lists of bad things that they've done: Well, we do have Veracity of statements by Donald Trump and Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations and Donald Trump Access Hollywood tape and Trump–Ukraine scandal. But it’s not just Trump. Check out Joe Biden sexual assault allegation. Then there’s Hillary Clinton email controversy and Hillary Clinton cattle futures controversy. Let’s not forget George W. Bush military service controversy, Bill Clinton sexual assault and misconduct allegations, Bill Clinton pardon controversy, Bill Clinton judicial appointment controversies - well, you get the idea. Articles about a public figure that are about something negative are actually very common here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC) P.S. In any case, this article is mostly not about things done by Trump personally; it's about things done by his administration. Hence the title; it says "Trump administration interference," not "Donald Trump political interference". And not just individual actions but a pattern of actions, widespread through many agencies, so unusual and noteworthy that it has been commented on by major nonpartisan sources like the National Institute of Sciences, the National Institute of Medicine, and the New England Journal of Medicine (a journal that has never before taken a political stand in its 200-year history). This is a real thing, and it needs an article. -- MelanieN ( talk) 08:04, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
This is a copy/paste from a recent discussion on Srich32977's Talk. We may have determined the new article title, based on existing WP practices, and are now looking for any additional comments prior to a proposed name change to Science policy of the Trump administration. Discussion follows.
Would you be okay with this title: Trump administration politicization of science? Johncdraper ( talk) 06:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! Johncdraper ( talk) 08:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughtful discussion about this, Johncdraper and S. Rich! It actually might be a good idea to have an article here called Science policy of the Trump administration. You might consider writing one. However, this is not that article. This article is not about his policies with regard to science. It is about actions, mostly by political appointees in the administration rather than by Trump himself, which are not in pursuit of any stated policy; nobody has publicly stated a policy that "science actions must support the president's re-election" or "government scientists must publicly agree with whatever the president says". (Well, nobody but Caputo.) These actions are well documented and important, per Reliable Sources, but they are not about anything that could be regarded as "policy". So I oppose "science policy" as a title for this article; it doesn't match the content. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:58, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
S. Rich, at first I thought your only objection was to the title of the article. You feel it is not neutral. You proposed “Science policy” but that does not describe it. (Although I agree that a “Science policy of the Trump administration” article would be good to have, and if you care to write it I will help.) I was going to suggest something like “Science agencies of the Trump administration,” although that doesn’t describe it either. I’m definitely willing to talk about the title, as long as it is a title that accurately reflects what the article is about.
But now you sound as if you want to eliminate the whole article. I will strongly fight any attempt to blow up or otherwise suppress this article. It is about a real, well documented, important pattern of activity by political appointees, and sometimes by Trump himself, to interfere with or change facts or silence the science agencies of the government. It is not a matter of a few “rogue officials” going “outside their lane”; it is an administration-wide pattern, so blatant that it has been called out by three of our most respected, non-partisan institutions that have never before commented on any political subject. [2] [3] This is not just “a topic in the news”, it is a well documented pattern of government behavior.
As for “neutrality”, such as presenting information to debunk or disagree with this pattern - well, if you can find such sources we will include them. But basically we haven’t been able to present the “the other side” because there is no other side; that is, no one has denied the truth of any of the reports in this article. If they did, we would report it. But it’s the opposite: Caputo has affirmed his part in it, [4] Stephen Hahn has apologized for his part in it, [5] and the Inspector General of the Department of Commerce has confirmed it. [6]
You say the article is POV because it documents something negative, but so do all the other articles I Iisted above to show that documenting something negative about a public figure or a government institution is neither against the rules or unusual; we do it whenever Reliable Source reporting supports it. Your argument is sounding more and more like you just personally object to this topic. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
We also have an article called Politicization of science, and it has a subsection "Trump administration" that reports a few of these incidents. We could transfer the entire contents of this article there, but it would overwhelm the article so I don't advise it. A couple of incidents won't convey the main point that this is a pattern, but describing the pattern without the incidents would be inadequately sourced. About counterarguments, I would love to see the counterarguments so I can include them here; can you give me links to a few of them? -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Let me try this approach. We have a List of federal agencies in the United States article. Given the massive complexity of the US government, this list is an ill-fated attempt to include everything in the USG. Please note the list has 1,400 "agencies" with MOS:LISTBULLETS. Well, how many of these agencies, offices, bureaus, activities, etc. are related to science? (I'll let you do the counting.) And how many of them have suffered from political interference? (Again, feel free to give us a count.) Back to our concern, WP's Donald Trump-related policy/articles include the following: Infrastructure policy of Donald Trump, Social policy of Donald Trump, Cannabis policy of the Donald Trump administration, Space policy of the Donald Trump administration, Immigration policy of Donald Trump, Trump administration family separation policy, Economic policy of Donald Trump, Environmental policy of the Donald Trump administration, and Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. Since we have these articles, would it be proper to create articles that have "Trump administration political interference with economic/space/environmental/infrastructure/immigration agencies"? Of course not! (These article titles now comply with WP policy.) If you will agree with me let's go with a variation of MelanieN's suggestion above. The title "Trump administration science agencies" incorrectly implies that different science agencies are uniquely his. However, Science policy of the Donald Trump administration works. Most importantly, the article title is NPOV. It is specific to "science". It pertains, indirectly, to federal science agencies. It is self-limiting to the 2016–202x timeframe. And it allows for editors to exposit on the Wicked, Weird, and Evil interference that Trump (and his minions) are inflicting upon the world and Wikipedia. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:46, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I completely agree. “Look at all the other agencies” is irrelevant; this article is about interference with science agencies, not with every agency that exists in the federal government. If there has been political interference with HUD or NASA, it has not been reported. But the attempts to disrupt science have been widely reported and widely condemned - precisely because science is about facts, and attempts to suppress or misreport facts are widely considered unwise and dangerous. Nobody (but Caputo) has defended the practice; nobody else has claimed that it is the administration’s policy for laypeople to overrule the consensus of professional scientists.
You all keep saying the article is POV. It is not; it is all sourced to Neutral Reliable Sources. If I could find counter-sources, people supporting the actions, I would add them to the article for balance - but except for Caputo I have not found any. I have asked you all multiple times to suggest some sources for justifications or counterarguments so that they can be added to the article; no luck.
So let me get back to the main point here: the title. This article is about a real, well-documented, important topic, so merging bits of it here and there to separate articles is not an option. A couple of you don’t like “political interference” in the title, even though that is what it is about. “Science policy of Donald Trump” or “Science policy of the Donald Trump administration” would be a misnomer for this article. It would also violate the principle of “least astonishment”, because it’s not about science policy, not at all. BTW it’s also not about Donald Trump himself. In many cases there is no evidence that he personally had anything to do with the reported actions; they were carried out by his appointed administrators, and if they were carried out because of some “policy,” that policy is a well guarded secret. This is certainly not about “Trump's views on science” as Onetwothreeip suggested. IMO any title which includes the name “Donald Trump” would be unfair and POV. I (reluctantly) suggested “Trump administration science agencies” but would prefer to keep the current title. Or would “Trump administration political influence on science agencies” be OK with you? -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Consensus against this move ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 05:14, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Trump administration political interference with science agencies → ? – Per the discussions above editors disagree whether the present title complies with WP:NPOVTITLE. Some say RS undisputedly shows there is political interference, thus justifying the present title. Others say the article title itself is POV. Suggested new titles include Science policy of the Donald Trump administration; Trump administration science agencies; Trump administration changes to science agency policies; and Trump administration efforts to interfere with, pressure, or silence federal government scientists. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources.. Political interference with science agencies by the Trump administration is a real and important phenomenon. It has been clearly identified as such by Reliable Sources [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] and by respected organizations that have never before made a political comment [12] [13] [14]. Actual instances of it have been documented and tallied by the Union of Concerned Scientists [15] and Columbia Law School [16]. Many of these sources refer to the subject as “attacks on science” rather than “political interference with science agencies,” but I prefer the "interference with science agencies" title as it is more precise and more neutral. This article should be called what it is actually about; the current title does that. As I have said before, an article about the Science policy of the Donald Trump administration could be very appropriate, but this is not that article, and calling it that would be deceptive. -- MelanieN ( talk) 15:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
In the EPA section there is a paragraph about a report on the toxicity of TCE, prepared by the agency's scientists based on three years work. They submitted their draft report to the White House for approval. When the report was released, the draft had been completely rewritten by the White House to increase the permissible exposure level 500-fold. This paragraph has been tagged by S. Rich as "{{undue inline|reason=The concerns about TCE have been at issue for decades -- see TCE article and "junk science"|date=October 2020}}" I disagree with the "undue" assessment. The incident is a perfect example of what this article is about - the work of government scientists being overruled and rewritten for political reasons. Comments? -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
This paragraph was removed with the rationale that it duplicates other information in the section and misrepresents the qualifications of one person
. I don't quite follow how that applies, since it was summarizing
this story about Nina Witkofsky and Chester Moeller, who weren't mentioned elsewhere in the article that I can find. It looks to be new information (Before Witkofsky and Moeller, the Trump administration had appointed others at CDC in Atlanta who were viewed by staff with some suspicion. But none of the predecessors’ roles was so clearly to report internal agency business up to Washington, according to officials who talked to The AP.
Etc.) Anyway, it seems like the story can be used somewhere in the text, at least to supplement what's already there. Cheers,
XOR'easter (
talk) 19:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
This looks like it might fit somewhere in this article: Infuriated by the FDA's defiance in a showdown over the Trump administration's standards for authorizing a coronavirus vaccine, health secretary Alex Azar has spent recent weeks openly plotting the ouster of FDA chief Stephen Hahn.
Cancryn, Adam; Diamond, Dan (October 22, 2020).
"An angry Azar floats plans to oust FDA's Hahn".
Politico. Retrieved October 25, 2020.
XOR'easter (
talk) 21:41, 25 October 2020 (UTC)