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Sources to be used |
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Feel free to add
reliable sources if they aren't used in the article or mentioned below
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https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Torture&diff=prev&oldid=1168797552
Buidhe How does this image "not fit" here? It seems okay to me. The text of the section remains perfectly readable with it included here. I'm also not sure how one image accounts for a worldwide imbalance. There's not even anything in it explicitly tied to any particular country. There's opposition to Guantanamo Bay detention camp globally. Helper201 ( talk) 03:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
“In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Western countries abolished the official use of torture in the judicial system”….
A definition of “Western countries,” or a different regional term, would be helpful here. A partial list might also be more informative than the current wording. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 22:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
"Ali Shallal al-Qaisi being tortured by United States forces at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."
the reason I change from mr.al-Qaisi to mr.Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (which I'll called him mr.Faleh from now on) it's start from Torture and Abuse in Abu Ghraib Prison Wiki page itself. it display name of mr.Faleh, and so that I start investigated
so I first search about mr.al-Qaisi first I found out that his wiki article didn't have such an infamous picture. which is odd by just how this picture is like the first thing people think of when talk about abusive in Abu Ghraib. so when I go to talk page. it's tell me that Wikipedian have to remove because the description didn't match with mr.al-Qaisi.
"The article uses the following image to imply that the pictured prisoner is Ali Shallal al-Qaisi, but the description on the image's own page identifies the prisoner as Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh. Unless the prisoner has two names, this is a contradiction that needs to be rectified." /info/en/?search=Talk:Ali_Shallal_al-Qaisi#The_image_may_be_depicting_Abdou_Hussain_Saad_Faleh
as same as talk on Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse
description of this image from each article that use this photo :
Hooding article ( /info/en/?search=Hooding#United_States). "Hooded prisoner Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (originally misidentified as Ali Shallal al-Qaisi) at Abu Ghraib."
Abu Ghraib article ( /info/en/?search=Abu_Ghraib_prison#2003%E2%80%932006) "Picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh, one of the prisoners subjected to torture and abuse by U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib"
Charles Graner article ( /info/en/?search=Charles_Graner#Abu_Ghraib) "The picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh which prompted the investigation"
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse article ( /info/en/?search=Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) "This image of a prisoner (Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh) being tortured has become internationally infamous, eventually making it onto the cover of The Economist (see "Media coverage" below)"
only two that different
Seymour Hersh article ( /info/en/?search=Seymour_Hersh#Iraq_and_Abu_Ghraib) "The infamous photo of a hooded Iraqi prisoner from Hersh's first article on the abuse, "Torture at Abu Ghraib" "
this one is not depicting any name.
and
Criticism of the war on terror article ( /info/en/?search=Criticism_of_the_war_on_terror#Domestic_civil_liberties) "Picture of Satar Jabar, one of the prisoners subjected to torture at Abu Ghraib. Jabar was in Abu Ghraib for car theft."
Satar Jabar is really strange by how it just pop up. but when I investigated more. it's likely that Satar Jabar is a name given to prisoner in photo due to unidentifiable at the time. (also at the description on Satar Jabar in 'Criticism of the war on terror'. I click at Satar Jabar name and it lead me to 'Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse' article
so what all I get is that. if at least he's not mr.Faleh. we should unidentify him at the description.
---
TL;DR : I change to mr.Faleh as intended like other article but I got changed back. so I write this whole thing just to say that if he isn't mr.Faleh. we should just unidentify him.
Karuwil ( talk) 12:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Buidhe: You say, "It's ridiculous to give this one individual so much WP:WEIGHT and suggest that they had a significant role in why torture declined."
Please excuse:
I would not suggest that Spee was the only voice against torture during the Inquisition nor necessarily the most effective. However, he seems to have been one such voice, and reasonably influential given the "number of new editions and translations" of his Cautio Criminalis that appeared later in the 17th century.
If you think this gives undue weight, please and similar discussions of the contributions of other leader(s) who helped reduce the use of torture.
Torture is still being used and promoted by leading politicians and bureaucrats today. It is part of current political discourse. This particular quote provides for me the most succinct and powerful argument against the active torture lobby.
Beyond this, the section on Motivation and preparation in the Wikipedia article on 1998 United States embassy bombings begins, "The bombings are widely believed to have been revenge for U.S. involvement in the extradition and alleged torture of four members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) ... ." I think this should also be mentioned in this article, because it provides clear evidence that torture is counterproductive.
Including vivid imagery like this quote in this article makes it easier, I believe, for people of good will to counter the politicians and bureaucrats demanding more "enhanced interrogation" methods.
You surely are not suggestion that the world needs more torture, not less, are you? If not, please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposed. DavidMCEddy ( talk) 04:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposedis likely incompatible with our encyclopedic mission. Likewise, we should state the scholarly consensus that torture is not particularly effective (for certain goals), and let readers make up their own mind.
Regarding File:Vietconginterrogation1967.jpg, the Commons description states that it is a US government work taken by a US soldier. NARA categorizes this image as "Photographs of American Military Activities". [1] Unless there is evidence that it is depicts ARVN rather than US forces, I think the caption should remain. ( t · c) buidhe 23:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Torture is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Torture article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Torture. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Torture at the Reference desk. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Sources to be used |
---|
Feel free to add
reliable sources if they aren't used in the article or mentioned below
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Torture&diff=prev&oldid=1168797552
Buidhe How does this image "not fit" here? It seems okay to me. The text of the section remains perfectly readable with it included here. I'm also not sure how one image accounts for a worldwide imbalance. There's not even anything in it explicitly tied to any particular country. There's opposition to Guantanamo Bay detention camp globally. Helper201 ( talk) 03:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
“In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Western countries abolished the official use of torture in the judicial system”….
A definition of “Western countries,” or a different regional term, would be helpful here. A partial list might also be more informative than the current wording. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 22:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
"Ali Shallal al-Qaisi being tortured by United States forces at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq."
the reason I change from mr.al-Qaisi to mr.Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (which I'll called him mr.Faleh from now on) it's start from Torture and Abuse in Abu Ghraib Prison Wiki page itself. it display name of mr.Faleh, and so that I start investigated
so I first search about mr.al-Qaisi first I found out that his wiki article didn't have such an infamous picture. which is odd by just how this picture is like the first thing people think of when talk about abusive in Abu Ghraib. so when I go to talk page. it's tell me that Wikipedian have to remove because the description didn't match with mr.al-Qaisi.
"The article uses the following image to imply that the pictured prisoner is Ali Shallal al-Qaisi, but the description on the image's own page identifies the prisoner as Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh. Unless the prisoner has two names, this is a contradiction that needs to be rectified." /info/en/?search=Talk:Ali_Shallal_al-Qaisi#The_image_may_be_depicting_Abdou_Hussain_Saad_Faleh
as same as talk on Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse
description of this image from each article that use this photo :
Hooding article ( /info/en/?search=Hooding#United_States). "Hooded prisoner Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh (originally misidentified as Ali Shallal al-Qaisi) at Abu Ghraib."
Abu Ghraib article ( /info/en/?search=Abu_Ghraib_prison#2003%E2%80%932006) "Picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh, one of the prisoners subjected to torture and abuse by U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib"
Charles Graner article ( /info/en/?search=Charles_Graner#Abu_Ghraib) "The picture of Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh which prompted the investigation"
Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse article ( /info/en/?search=Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) "This image of a prisoner (Abdou Hussain Saad Faleh) being tortured has become internationally infamous, eventually making it onto the cover of The Economist (see "Media coverage" below)"
only two that different
Seymour Hersh article ( /info/en/?search=Seymour_Hersh#Iraq_and_Abu_Ghraib) "The infamous photo of a hooded Iraqi prisoner from Hersh's first article on the abuse, "Torture at Abu Ghraib" "
this one is not depicting any name.
and
Criticism of the war on terror article ( /info/en/?search=Criticism_of_the_war_on_terror#Domestic_civil_liberties) "Picture of Satar Jabar, one of the prisoners subjected to torture at Abu Ghraib. Jabar was in Abu Ghraib for car theft."
Satar Jabar is really strange by how it just pop up. but when I investigated more. it's likely that Satar Jabar is a name given to prisoner in photo due to unidentifiable at the time. (also at the description on Satar Jabar in 'Criticism of the war on terror'. I click at Satar Jabar name and it lead me to 'Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse' article
so what all I get is that. if at least he's not mr.Faleh. we should unidentify him at the description.
---
TL;DR : I change to mr.Faleh as intended like other article but I got changed back. so I write this whole thing just to say that if he isn't mr.Faleh. we should just unidentify him.
Karuwil ( talk) 12:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Buidhe: You say, "It's ridiculous to give this one individual so much WP:WEIGHT and suggest that they had a significant role in why torture declined."
Please excuse:
I would not suggest that Spee was the only voice against torture during the Inquisition nor necessarily the most effective. However, he seems to have been one such voice, and reasonably influential given the "number of new editions and translations" of his Cautio Criminalis that appeared later in the 17th century.
If you think this gives undue weight, please and similar discussions of the contributions of other leader(s) who helped reduce the use of torture.
Torture is still being used and promoted by leading politicians and bureaucrats today. It is part of current political discourse. This particular quote provides for me the most succinct and powerful argument against the active torture lobby.
Beyond this, the section on Motivation and preparation in the Wikipedia article on 1998 United States embassy bombings begins, "The bombings are widely believed to have been revenge for U.S. involvement in the extradition and alleged torture of four members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) ... ." I think this should also be mentioned in this article, because it provides clear evidence that torture is counterproductive.
Including vivid imagery like this quote in this article makes it easier, I believe, for people of good will to counter the politicians and bureaucrats demanding more "enhanced interrogation" methods.
You surely are not suggestion that the world needs more torture, not less, are you? If not, please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposed. DavidMCEddy ( talk) 04:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
please supply other vivid imagery to help people understand why torture should be vigorously condemned and opposedis likely incompatible with our encyclopedic mission. Likewise, we should state the scholarly consensus that torture is not particularly effective (for certain goals), and let readers make up their own mind.
Regarding File:Vietconginterrogation1967.jpg, the Commons description states that it is a US government work taken by a US soldier. NARA categorizes this image as "Photographs of American Military Activities". [1] Unless there is evidence that it is depicts ARVN rather than US forces, I think the caption should remain. ( t · c) buidhe 23:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)