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This
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The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Why include the names they don't go by in the main name indication area? The names they go by are placed there as if it's not who they actually are. 209.6.114.172 ( talk) 01:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. Please see the multiple discussions above about this topic.
aboideau
sapere aude 01:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
When a subject changes names as part of coming out as transgender, it is often impossible to continue to use that person's former name without misgendering them and thus causing harm as discussed in #Self-identification and #Transphobia. However, the old name should be kept as a redirect if it is still a well-known name likely to be searched for by people unaware of the name change.
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable under that name. One can introduce the name with either "born" or "formerly". The current format is correct. — Czello 11:04, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
In a related vein, the article states that "Beginning in 1993 they wrote several issues of Ectokid for Marvel Comics' Razorline imprint (created by horror novelist Clive Barker), which were credited to Lana.[16]". Lana was not known as Lana in 1993, so it's unlikely that it was credited to "Lana Wachowski". Further, the reference does not support the statement at all; it only mentioned that the two wrote comics for Marvel, not that only one of them received credit, for Ectokid. As the article is protected (and it's part of the whole trans thing, which I don't want to get involved in, in any way) I'm not going to add tags for that sentence, but it needs a better reference and if it was credited to one of the Wachowskis, it's not going to be a name that was not chosen by the person until a decade later. Is it proper to cite written credits under a person's previous name, because that's what the sources say? The Manual of Style is not clear on this, either in MOS:GENDERID or MOS:DEADNAME. (And FWIW, I ended up here because of a series of tweets from Netflix addressing by their current names; I was confused because I wasn't aware that they had transitioned.) Horologium (talk) 21:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
The Wachowskis was a highly notable filmmaking team whose success was established in the late 90s. However, three decades have passed since their initial rise to success and they are both separate people who have accomplished professional projects and personal milestones and activism separately. They are also two different people. Why is it that the Hemsworth brothers do not have a redirected page to 'The Hemsworths' and they have all different pages 'Liam Hemsworth', 'Chris Hemsworth' and 'Luke Hemsworth' but the Lily and Lana Wachowski get redirected? Also, the combined pages for the Wachowskis can stay, but they still deserve their own pages. Rockenthusiast1979 ( talk) 07:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
MOS:DEADNAME has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. – wallyfromdilbert ( talk) 23:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I want to remove the part where the article states the sisters' dead names. 67.190.103.168 ( talk) 18:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
A sentence in the introduction reads "The sisters are both trans women". The word "woman" is clearly redundant here, since the word "sisters" already conveys the fact that they are women. I think the sentence should be changed to "The sisters are both transgender." Saying "The sisters are women" breaks the Maxim of quantity Crockett623 ( talk) 22:34, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Transgender sounds less repetitive in this case. -
Daveout
(talk) 01:22, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
It is no longer common practice to mention previous names of transgender individuals. The Wachowski sisters’ dead names should be removed from their page. 97.113.180.89 ( talk) 04:28, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Could you please remove the deadnames? 79.72.135.114 ( talk) 21:27, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
. 2A02:C7F:7C6F:8700:DCBD:B9DB:A047:C6F9 ( talk) 22:37, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion both are imprtant enough for their onw articles as they do not do all their work together anymore. 93.106.175.246 ( talk) 09:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
As noted below, it is no longer practice to reference the dead names of trans folks. I understand the stance that it should stay on the page but the inclusion of the names in the introduction in ADDITION to the ‘Born’ text box is repetitive and unnecessary. Helicasehaley ( talk) 02:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
For instance, that is how Elliot Page’s dead name is referenced on his page. Helicasehaley ( talk) 02:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
According to MOS:GID, the only pre-transition names that should appear in articles concerning living people are names by which the subjects were Notable at the time. I am unaware that either of the Wachowskis was notable using their birth name (as opposed to their professional names, which are correctly included in the lead), so these birth names should be removed from the infobox according to the MOS. I understand that this is "long-standing content", but it is also long-disputed content, and its inclusion here is clearly against last year's MOS:DEADNAME RfC result and the current text of MOS:GID. Site-level consensus overrules page-level consensus, per WP:CONSENSUSLEVEL. Newimpartial ( talk) 02:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I recently added to the section on Lanas personal life expanding on how she and her wife Karin Winslow: *Following the release of The Matrix Lana began attending the Los Angeles BDSM club The Dungeon where she met Karin Winslow who worked there as a Dominatrix under the name 'Ilsa Strix', Bloom divorced Lana in 2002 after discovering the relationship.* and citing Rolling Stone for this: ttp://web.archive.org/web/20060207081803/www.rollingstone.com/news/story/9138137/the_mystery_of_larry_wachowski/ - but it was quickly taken down. Is this not relevant? Is there something wrong with it? LamontCranston ( talk) 18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I would write three articles, one about Lana, one about Lilly and one about their work together. I would compare the situation to pop-duos who work also separated. They are famous enough and there is so much written about them, that the articles would not be short. -- Persephonear ( talk) 05:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
"Lilly married Alisa Blasingame in 1991." This is very confusing as in 1991 there was no Lilly Wachowski. At that time, that person's name was Andy Wachowski. To say "Lilly married Alisa Blasingame in 1991" forges history. 95.117.63.178 ( talk) 17:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Spy-cicle: The lead currently has an excessive amount of bolding with this edit. We're obviously in a slow-moving edit war right now, so I figured it would be better to just start a discussion.
Since this is a joint-bio, I don't feel the normal MOS:DEADNAME rules apply here (regarding Newimpartial's point). If you ask me, the birthnames (ie. their deadnames) should be moved to the section actually talking about the subject's birth. To do otherwise means the article starts with a whopping five bolded terms (which is against the spirit of MOS:LEADCLUTTER (footnote alternate names if they clutter the opening sentence) and MOS:LEAD § Separate section usage (don't have more than 3 bolded terms). – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 21:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
That's where I'm at too, Firefangledfeathers. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 03:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
These applications of boldface are done in the majority of articles, but are not a requirement. It will not be helpful in a case where a large number of terms redirect to a single article, e.g. a plant species with dozens of vernacular names.[ emphasis added – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 17:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
I just came here to echo the other discussion posts about removing their deadnames. Those names are not necessary to print as both women’s transition and career history are referenced. Their work prior to transition is not lost. 67.198.78.53 ( talk) 07:11, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk) 07:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)delete "formerly known as (former name)" from both Lilly and Lana's descriptions as it serves no point and is harmful to the actual people by sharing information they have not stated they are comfortable with people knowing Charmmander ( talk) 16:39, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
How many times does this need to be posted until they’re removed? Remove the deadnames. It’s offensive and unnecessary. 96.8.248.220 ( talk) 04:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Theyre called dead names for a reason. Theyre dead. They arent needed and including them is transphobic and unneeded. 2600:100E:B0D1:C957:ADAB:4409:FC85:4A2F ( talk) 11:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
The excuse of "the wiki policy said-" to excuse deadnaming a trans person is disgusting. Stop using your lame excuses and just remove them. 2600:100E:B0D1:C957:ADAB:4409:FC85:4A2F ( talk) 11:18, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
In the credits for The Matrix Resurrections Lana’s wife is credited as “Karin Wachowski”. I think her name should be changed on this page unless there is some reason not to use that as a source. Also found a Vulture article that uses that as her name https://www.vulture.com/2021/12/the-matrix-was-when-the-wachowskis-ambition-went-mainstream.html (which is itself quoting something I can’t read because paywall). Also not sure if this is necessary after reading the wikipedia guidelines on changed names for people who arent the article’s main subject, although I’m not sure how it applies to infoboxes. 88.104.61.174 ( talk) 05:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
She unfortunately didn’t create the matrix she stole the idea from a black women and admitted in court during the lawsuit. That should be included 104.167.180.167 ( talk) 09:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"In 2016, Lilly mentioned having a boyfriend. In 2019, she said Mickey Ray Mahoney became her partner and moved in with her." Had to read this sentence a few times before I realized that "her" refers to Lilly. Couldn't tell if it was "she said ... and moved" or "Mahoney became ... and moved" Maybe a rewrite for clarity? -- 2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:40D8:D86D:E84F:5735 ( talk) 16:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
the chart background colors do not have enough contrast to the color of the text within each cell. this is particularly noticeable for the cells with yellow background color. text color should be changed appropriately. Aasci ( talk) 08:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
I commented out this section as it was completely uncited. ALL AWARDS REQUIRE CITATIONS. Skyerise ( talk) 17:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
As I have understood they do not do their things together anymore, and would be easier to have their own articles (or third article about their work together). Is it possible? -- 130.232.239.43 ( talk) 12:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
...here, with dead names and so on.
Why not just doing it this way: Before their transitions they are called with their male names and films or anything else they did after their transitions they are called by their female names.
Maybe you went through all this already but to me this seems to be not such a bad solution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.76.247 ( talk) 20:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
"Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise."Firefangledfeathers 21:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sincerely, a transwoman. 142.122.154.2 ( talk) 17:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
+=African American screen writer Sophia Stewart wrote the original work, she was finally awarded her copy right infringement law suit. Your information does not reflect the accurate information. https://www.cctvcambridge.org/node/209881
208.84.32.8 ( talk) 17:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Why include the names they don't go by in the main name indication area? The names they go by are placed there as if it's not who they actually are. 209.6.114.172 ( talk) 01:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
{{
edit semi-protected}}
template. Please see the multiple discussions above about this topic.
aboideau
sapere aude 01:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
When a subject changes names as part of coming out as transgender, it is often impossible to continue to use that person's former name without misgendering them and thus causing harm as discussed in #Self-identification and #Transphobia. However, the old name should be kept as a redirect if it is still a well-known name likely to be searched for by people unaware of the name change.
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable under that name. One can introduce the name with either "born" or "formerly". The current format is correct. — Czello 11:04, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
In a related vein, the article states that "Beginning in 1993 they wrote several issues of Ectokid for Marvel Comics' Razorline imprint (created by horror novelist Clive Barker), which were credited to Lana.[16]". Lana was not known as Lana in 1993, so it's unlikely that it was credited to "Lana Wachowski". Further, the reference does not support the statement at all; it only mentioned that the two wrote comics for Marvel, not that only one of them received credit, for Ectokid. As the article is protected (and it's part of the whole trans thing, which I don't want to get involved in, in any way) I'm not going to add tags for that sentence, but it needs a better reference and if it was credited to one of the Wachowskis, it's not going to be a name that was not chosen by the person until a decade later. Is it proper to cite written credits under a person's previous name, because that's what the sources say? The Manual of Style is not clear on this, either in MOS:GENDERID or MOS:DEADNAME. (And FWIW, I ended up here because of a series of tweets from Netflix addressing by their current names; I was confused because I wasn't aware that they had transitioned.) Horologium (talk) 21:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
The Wachowskis was a highly notable filmmaking team whose success was established in the late 90s. However, three decades have passed since their initial rise to success and they are both separate people who have accomplished professional projects and personal milestones and activism separately. They are also two different people. Why is it that the Hemsworth brothers do not have a redirected page to 'The Hemsworths' and they have all different pages 'Liam Hemsworth', 'Chris Hemsworth' and 'Luke Hemsworth' but the Lily and Lana Wachowski get redirected? Also, the combined pages for the Wachowskis can stay, but they still deserve their own pages. Rockenthusiast1979 ( talk) 07:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
MOS:DEADNAME has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. – wallyfromdilbert ( talk) 23:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I want to remove the part where the article states the sisters' dead names. 67.190.103.168 ( talk) 18:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
A sentence in the introduction reads "The sisters are both trans women". The word "woman" is clearly redundant here, since the word "sisters" already conveys the fact that they are women. I think the sentence should be changed to "The sisters are both transgender." Saying "The sisters are women" breaks the Maxim of quantity Crockett623 ( talk) 22:34, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Transgender sounds less repetitive in this case. -
Daveout
(talk) 01:22, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
It is no longer common practice to mention previous names of transgender individuals. The Wachowski sisters’ dead names should be removed from their page. 97.113.180.89 ( talk) 04:28, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Could you please remove the deadnames? 79.72.135.114 ( talk) 21:27, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
. 2A02:C7F:7C6F:8700:DCBD:B9DB:A047:C6F9 ( talk) 22:37, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion both are imprtant enough for their onw articles as they do not do all their work together anymore. 93.106.175.246 ( talk) 09:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
As noted below, it is no longer practice to reference the dead names of trans folks. I understand the stance that it should stay on the page but the inclusion of the names in the introduction in ADDITION to the ‘Born’ text box is repetitive and unnecessary. Helicasehaley ( talk) 02:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
For instance, that is how Elliot Page’s dead name is referenced on his page. Helicasehaley ( talk) 02:08, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
According to MOS:GID, the only pre-transition names that should appear in articles concerning living people are names by which the subjects were Notable at the time. I am unaware that either of the Wachowskis was notable using their birth name (as opposed to their professional names, which are correctly included in the lead), so these birth names should be removed from the infobox according to the MOS. I understand that this is "long-standing content", but it is also long-disputed content, and its inclusion here is clearly against last year's MOS:DEADNAME RfC result and the current text of MOS:GID. Site-level consensus overrules page-level consensus, per WP:CONSENSUSLEVEL. Newimpartial ( talk) 02:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I recently added to the section on Lanas personal life expanding on how she and her wife Karin Winslow: *Following the release of The Matrix Lana began attending the Los Angeles BDSM club The Dungeon where she met Karin Winslow who worked there as a Dominatrix under the name 'Ilsa Strix', Bloom divorced Lana in 2002 after discovering the relationship.* and citing Rolling Stone for this: ttp://web.archive.org/web/20060207081803/www.rollingstone.com/news/story/9138137/the_mystery_of_larry_wachowski/ - but it was quickly taken down. Is this not relevant? Is there something wrong with it? LamontCranston ( talk) 18:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I would write three articles, one about Lana, one about Lilly and one about their work together. I would compare the situation to pop-duos who work also separated. They are famous enough and there is so much written about them, that the articles would not be short. -- Persephonear ( talk) 05:34, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
"Lilly married Alisa Blasingame in 1991." This is very confusing as in 1991 there was no Lilly Wachowski. At that time, that person's name was Andy Wachowski. To say "Lilly married Alisa Blasingame in 1991" forges history. 95.117.63.178 ( talk) 17:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Spy-cicle: The lead currently has an excessive amount of bolding with this edit. We're obviously in a slow-moving edit war right now, so I figured it would be better to just start a discussion.
Since this is a joint-bio, I don't feel the normal MOS:DEADNAME rules apply here (regarding Newimpartial's point). If you ask me, the birthnames (ie. their deadnames) should be moved to the section actually talking about the subject's birth. To do otherwise means the article starts with a whopping five bolded terms (which is against the spirit of MOS:LEADCLUTTER (footnote alternate names if they clutter the opening sentence) and MOS:LEAD § Separate section usage (don't have more than 3 bolded terms). – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 21:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
That's where I'm at too, Firefangledfeathers. – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 03:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
These applications of boldface are done in the majority of articles, but are not a requirement. It will not be helpful in a case where a large number of terms redirect to a single article, e.g. a plant species with dozens of vernacular names.[ emphasis added – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 17:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
I just came here to echo the other discussion posts about removing their deadnames. Those names are not necessary to print as both women’s transition and career history are referenced. Their work prior to transition is not lost. 67.198.78.53 ( talk) 07:11, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk) 07:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)delete "formerly known as (former name)" from both Lilly and Lana's descriptions as it serves no point and is harmful to the actual people by sharing information they have not stated they are comfortable with people knowing Charmmander ( talk) 16:39, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
How many times does this need to be posted until they’re removed? Remove the deadnames. It’s offensive and unnecessary. 96.8.248.220 ( talk) 04:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Theyre called dead names for a reason. Theyre dead. They arent needed and including them is transphobic and unneeded. 2600:100E:B0D1:C957:ADAB:4409:FC85:4A2F ( talk) 11:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
The excuse of "the wiki policy said-" to excuse deadnaming a trans person is disgusting. Stop using your lame excuses and just remove them. 2600:100E:B0D1:C957:ADAB:4409:FC85:4A2F ( talk) 11:18, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
In the credits for The Matrix Resurrections Lana’s wife is credited as “Karin Wachowski”. I think her name should be changed on this page unless there is some reason not to use that as a source. Also found a Vulture article that uses that as her name https://www.vulture.com/2021/12/the-matrix-was-when-the-wachowskis-ambition-went-mainstream.html (which is itself quoting something I can’t read because paywall). Also not sure if this is necessary after reading the wikipedia guidelines on changed names for people who arent the article’s main subject, although I’m not sure how it applies to infoboxes. 88.104.61.174 ( talk) 05:14, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
She unfortunately didn’t create the matrix she stole the idea from a black women and admitted in court during the lawsuit. That should be included 104.167.180.167 ( talk) 09:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
"In 2016, Lilly mentioned having a boyfriend. In 2019, she said Mickey Ray Mahoney became her partner and moved in with her." Had to read this sentence a few times before I realized that "her" refers to Lilly. Couldn't tell if it was "she said ... and moved" or "Mahoney became ... and moved" Maybe a rewrite for clarity? -- 2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:40D8:D86D:E84F:5735 ( talk) 16:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
the chart background colors do not have enough contrast to the color of the text within each cell. this is particularly noticeable for the cells with yellow background color. text color should be changed appropriately. Aasci ( talk) 08:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
I commented out this section as it was completely uncited. ALL AWARDS REQUIRE CITATIONS. Skyerise ( talk) 17:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
As I have understood they do not do their things together anymore, and would be easier to have their own articles (or third article about their work together). Is it possible? -- 130.232.239.43 ( talk) 12:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
...here, with dead names and so on.
Why not just doing it this way: Before their transitions they are called with their male names and films or anything else they did after their transitions they are called by their female names.
Maybe you went through all this already but to me this seems to be not such a bad solution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.76.247 ( talk) 20:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
"Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise."Firefangledfeathers 21:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sincerely, a transwoman. 142.122.154.2 ( talk) 17:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
The Wachowskis has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
+=African American screen writer Sophia Stewart wrote the original work, she was finally awarded her copy right infringement law suit. Your information does not reflect the accurate information. https://www.cctvcambridge.org/node/209881
208.84.32.8 ( talk) 17:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)