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Hello
1 I hope this is in the right place. This article begins by stating that the song has evolved via 'the folk process'. This statement seems to beg the question of what the folk process is. Definitions of 'folk' and ideas about what the processes involved are differ and are contentious. Following a few wiki links shows this to be the case.
For example, Phillips Barry, who seems to have been the first to suggest that this song had Irish origins, held to a 'communal reconstruction theory', which was the subject of debate. A L Lloyd, another writer on the subject, and, probably, the author of one variant, was, broadly speaking, Marxist, and in any case later wrote ideas about folklore which were very broad.
Would it not be better to acknowledge this in the article?
2 After months of following back references, I cannot find any original (ie 19th century lyrics with title ) actually called The Unfortunate Rake. I can find an Irish tune with that title, which somebody surmised might originally have gone with the words of the Unfortunate Lad, but no evidence to support that. The main fuel for current beliefs that such a song existed, appears to be the Folkways LP, though plainly the idea was around (though not referenced/evidenced) earlier than that. Does anybody in the Wiki community have the missing piece of the puzzle, or is this an example of an unverified idea taking root and being passed down via the culture?
Thank you for reading, and looking forward to information/references/sources, and ideally ones that do not simply parrot the liner notes to the FOlkways LP, which so many seem to do.
I am sorry to have made so many alterations: I am still getting used to working within Wiki, and have not learned all the tricks of the trade. Kate Mash 14:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash ( talk • contribs)
I have no opinion about whether or not the Unfortunate Lad and the Unfortunate Rake articles ought to be merged. My only opinion relates to the St. James Infirmary Blues article. I think that SJI's possible Unfortunate predecessors should be a footnote to one sentence of the SJI article, and not a discussion taking up 60% of the SJI article.
Several Talk comments in the SJI Talk, preceding me, make the same point.
The Unfortunate material in the SJI article looks to be as long or longer that either of the two Unfortunate articles. Sprucegrouse ( talk) 21:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
The recently expanded article,
The Unfortunate Lad, was recently changed from a redirect to an article. It covers the same topic but has some other references. @
Kate Mash: I see you have
article authorship on this article and did almost all of the changes on the Unfortunate Lad article, can you please explain why you have them as separate articles? Please keep in mind according to
WP:COMMONNAME Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources
, meaning that this article can be merged to either name so long as consensus is established.
Darcyisverycute (
talk) 13:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Hello
1 I hope this is in the right place. This article begins by stating that the song has evolved via 'the folk process'. This statement seems to beg the question of what the folk process is. Definitions of 'folk' and ideas about what the processes involved are differ and are contentious. Following a few wiki links shows this to be the case.
For example, Phillips Barry, who seems to have been the first to suggest that this song had Irish origins, held to a 'communal reconstruction theory', which was the subject of debate. A L Lloyd, another writer on the subject, and, probably, the author of one variant, was, broadly speaking, Marxist, and in any case later wrote ideas about folklore which were very broad.
Would it not be better to acknowledge this in the article?
2 After months of following back references, I cannot find any original (ie 19th century lyrics with title ) actually called The Unfortunate Rake. I can find an Irish tune with that title, which somebody surmised might originally have gone with the words of the Unfortunate Lad, but no evidence to support that. The main fuel for current beliefs that such a song existed, appears to be the Folkways LP, though plainly the idea was around (though not referenced/evidenced) earlier than that. Does anybody in the Wiki community have the missing piece of the puzzle, or is this an example of an unverified idea taking root and being passed down via the culture?
Thank you for reading, and looking forward to information/references/sources, and ideally ones that do not simply parrot the liner notes to the FOlkways LP, which so many seem to do.
I am sorry to have made so many alterations: I am still getting used to working within Wiki, and have not learned all the tricks of the trade. Kate Mash 14:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)Kate Mash — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate Mash ( talk • contribs)
I have no opinion about whether or not the Unfortunate Lad and the Unfortunate Rake articles ought to be merged. My only opinion relates to the St. James Infirmary Blues article. I think that SJI's possible Unfortunate predecessors should be a footnote to one sentence of the SJI article, and not a discussion taking up 60% of the SJI article.
Several Talk comments in the SJI Talk, preceding me, make the same point.
The Unfortunate material in the SJI article looks to be as long or longer that either of the two Unfortunate articles. Sprucegrouse ( talk) 21:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
The recently expanded article,
The Unfortunate Lad, was recently changed from a redirect to an article. It covers the same topic but has some other references. @
Kate Mash: I see you have
article authorship on this article and did almost all of the changes on the Unfortunate Lad article, can you please explain why you have them as separate articles? Please keep in mind according to
WP:COMMONNAME Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources
, meaning that this article can be merged to either name so long as consensus is established.
Darcyisverycute (
talk) 13:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)