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During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello
Location, according to
your deletion of my edit and your arguments (Neither Huismann or Dowling are reliable sources for this material. Non-fringe, non-conspiratorial sources are needed..
):
This (small letters) is the text we speak about and which has been deleted without any discussion:
Two confidential membership lists can be found on the Internet today, one from 1978, the other from 1987, both from the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling, who made a never aired film about the activities of the WWF in Africa. Many members are prominent amongst the world's political and financial elite. They included: [1]
Greetings, -- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 04:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC) +-- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 04:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (i.e. WP:RSThe WDR/SWR, on whose documentary Huismann's book of Huismann is based, has got overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. de:Wilfried Huismann in person is a well known journalist as well. I go along with you we have to deal carefully with this non-scientific information (as we have to do in general with journalist's information). Me and you, we both cannot decide, whether in a special case the membership lists is authentic or not. Therefore you can't expect me to trust just in your own assessment as a WP author. So if you intend to challenge his credibility according to the membership lists he provided, you should "cite third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (i.e. WP:RS" as well. As I did. Btw: Huismann as a journalist is third-party, whereas WWF (which is cited in the article) is not, but seems to have received strong financial support by "The 1001".
As you also know and have pointed out, Wilfried Huismann's history reveals big issues pertaining to fact-checking and accuracy on this subject: I don't know what you are referring to with this comment exactly. The WWF went to court and subsequently stated, the quintessence has had to be removed from Huismann's book and films in due to court decision and out-of-court settlements. But (I don't know whether you followed the media coverage, e.g. in German speaking media) what really happened was, that just minor claims had been removed, but not the quintessence. After all media showed surprised what an huge effort the WWF made to practically forbid or even forcefully remove the German 1st edition from the market and how little the changes in the book were, the WWF agreed with finally. In Germany the approach of the WWF against Huismann, Random House, and the WDR caused an outrage in media and book publishers.
Forwarding JFK conspiracy theories in Rendezvous with Death and Lieber Fidel - which appears to take the stories of the notorious unreliable Marita Lorenz as fact - does not help Huismann's case.: In my opionion you are right with this and I strongly support your intention to check thoroughly by using reliable sources, which conclusions can and should be reported as known state of knowledge and which claims can and should be regarded and explicitly marked as conspiracy theories or wild guess. But it does not help us either to change conspiracy theories with useful information from investigative reports and mix all together without distinguishing them. We only would participate in creating another conspiracy theory then. Do you see a connection between conspiracy theories and the question of the factual claim, that the membership lists from Dowling are authentic? I did not read about such a connection or even about the reasonable suspicion of such a connection. And important in our case: As to my knowledge the WWF did not question the authenticity of the membership lists' extract, provided by Huismann. So why should we do here? Of course it is possible I have overlooked important information, but if you know such source(s), please cite it here.
Huismann said he obtained it from "the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling". I cannot find that Dowling has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, however, Dowling does appears to enjoy the support of Executive Intelligence Review [4] [5]. Search WP:RSN for EIR and you will find that it is generally not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes.: As you can read in my (deleted) edit I cited "the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling" myself, just using the citation of the printed book with page numbers, not linking an extract from the ebook in google books. But what is the connection between EIR and the citation of Huismann? Do you want to state, Huismann follows EIR? Can you proove such a claim with any reliable source? Whoever originally leaked the lists: according to Huismann (2014) Dowling first cooperated with the WWF. I quote Huismann (2014, 100f): "In 1989 he [Dowling] shot his first documentary film charting the fate of the big game animals. It was called 'The Elephant Man', and revealed that poachers in Africa had slaughtered a million elephants. The viewing public was deeply unsettled and donations flooded in to the WWF - in record amounts. [...] [Dowling:] 'I had the numbers about the slaughtered elephants from the WWF' [...] 'Before the film was finished I knew: the number was incorreet.' [...] 'I completed the film nevertheless, and the WWF even gave me an award to it.'" Huismann also mentions, that Prof. Stephen Ellis at the African Studies Centre in Leiden, Netherlands backs up claims of Dowling concerning the involvement of the WWF in a military commando "Operation Lock". I can not decide what is correct and what is not. But according to the membership lists I see no serious concerns against their authenticity. And you did not provide such concrete concerns either.
Hello User:Location, I'll sum up some of the results of the scientific literature so far:
Your claims in this article and in this discussion therefore do not fight conspiracy theories, but even help constructing such ones - against all reliable sources and rationality. User:AndyTheGrump, who supported these claims at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#The 1001: A Nature Trust, cites five main issues at his talk page: "Quality Control", "Reliable sources", "Free speech", "Applied science.", "Knowledge". Everyone may judge, what is necessary first to reach these goals. Hope this helps. Greetings,-- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 23:35, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 21:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello
Location, according to
your deletion of my edit and your arguments (Neither Huismann or Dowling are reliable sources for this material. Non-fringe, non-conspiratorial sources are needed..
):
This (small letters) is the text we speak about and which has been deleted without any discussion:
Two confidential membership lists can be found on the Internet today, one from 1978, the other from 1987, both from the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling, who made a never aired film about the activities of the WWF in Africa. Many members are prominent amongst the world's political and financial elite. They included: [1]
Greetings, -- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 04:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC) +-- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 04:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (i.e. WP:RSThe WDR/SWR, on whose documentary Huismann's book of Huismann is based, has got overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. de:Wilfried Huismann in person is a well known journalist as well. I go along with you we have to deal carefully with this non-scientific information (as we have to do in general with journalist's information). Me and you, we both cannot decide, whether in a special case the membership lists is authentic or not. Therefore you can't expect me to trust just in your own assessment as a WP author. So if you intend to challenge his credibility according to the membership lists he provided, you should "cite third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (i.e. WP:RS" as well. As I did. Btw: Huismann as a journalist is third-party, whereas WWF (which is cited in the article) is not, but seems to have received strong financial support by "The 1001".
As you also know and have pointed out, Wilfried Huismann's history reveals big issues pertaining to fact-checking and accuracy on this subject: I don't know what you are referring to with this comment exactly. The WWF went to court and subsequently stated, the quintessence has had to be removed from Huismann's book and films in due to court decision and out-of-court settlements. But (I don't know whether you followed the media coverage, e.g. in German speaking media) what really happened was, that just minor claims had been removed, but not the quintessence. After all media showed surprised what an huge effort the WWF made to practically forbid or even forcefully remove the German 1st edition from the market and how little the changes in the book were, the WWF agreed with finally. In Germany the approach of the WWF against Huismann, Random House, and the WDR caused an outrage in media and book publishers.
Forwarding JFK conspiracy theories in Rendezvous with Death and Lieber Fidel - which appears to take the stories of the notorious unreliable Marita Lorenz as fact - does not help Huismann's case.: In my opionion you are right with this and I strongly support your intention to check thoroughly by using reliable sources, which conclusions can and should be reported as known state of knowledge and which claims can and should be regarded and explicitly marked as conspiracy theories or wild guess. But it does not help us either to change conspiracy theories with useful information from investigative reports and mix all together without distinguishing them. We only would participate in creating another conspiracy theory then. Do you see a connection between conspiracy theories and the question of the factual claim, that the membership lists from Dowling are authentic? I did not read about such a connection or even about the reasonable suspicion of such a connection. And important in our case: As to my knowledge the WWF did not question the authenticity of the membership lists' extract, provided by Huismann. So why should we do here? Of course it is possible I have overlooked important information, but if you know such source(s), please cite it here.
Huismann said he obtained it from "the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling". I cannot find that Dowling has a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, however, Dowling does appears to enjoy the support of Executive Intelligence Review [4] [5]. Search WP:RSN for EIR and you will find that it is generally not a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes.: As you can read in my (deleted) edit I cited "the estate of British journalist Kevin Dowling" myself, just using the citation of the printed book with page numbers, not linking an extract from the ebook in google books. But what is the connection between EIR and the citation of Huismann? Do you want to state, Huismann follows EIR? Can you proove such a claim with any reliable source? Whoever originally leaked the lists: according to Huismann (2014) Dowling first cooperated with the WWF. I quote Huismann (2014, 100f): "In 1989 he [Dowling] shot his first documentary film charting the fate of the big game animals. It was called 'The Elephant Man', and revealed that poachers in Africa had slaughtered a million elephants. The viewing public was deeply unsettled and donations flooded in to the WWF - in record amounts. [...] [Dowling:] 'I had the numbers about the slaughtered elephants from the WWF' [...] 'Before the film was finished I knew: the number was incorreet.' [...] 'I completed the film nevertheless, and the WWF even gave me an award to it.'" Huismann also mentions, that Prof. Stephen Ellis at the African Studies Centre in Leiden, Netherlands backs up claims of Dowling concerning the involvement of the WWF in a military commando "Operation Lock". I can not decide what is correct and what is not. But according to the membership lists I see no serious concerns against their authenticity. And you did not provide such concrete concerns either.
Hello User:Location, I'll sum up some of the results of the scientific literature so far:
Your claims in this article and in this discussion therefore do not fight conspiracy theories, but even help constructing such ones - against all reliable sources and rationality. User:AndyTheGrump, who supported these claims at Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#The 1001: A Nature Trust, cites five main issues at his talk page: "Quality Control", "Reliable sources", "Free speech", "Applied science.", "Knowledge". Everyone may judge, what is necessary first to reach these goals. Hope this helps. Greetings,-- Anglo-Araneophilus ( talk) 23:35, 24 November 2014 (UTC)