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Do any of you know if the James Ossuary has any picture or designs on the front side or the side without the inscription?
Also, do any of you know the dimensions of the missing Talpiot Tomb ossuary. So far it has been unclear if the 10th ossuary is in reference to a different original talpiot tomb ossuary. This is to say that, the james ossuary connection might be in connection to some other ossuary rather than the commonally refenced 10th one in the reports. The use of the term 10th ossuary is somewhat ambigious; I can name any of the ossuaries to be the 10th one.
The book claims they were nearly identical in dimensions. There was a two and a half inch difference in one of the dimensions, I forget which, but they explain that by saying it could've either changed in size slightly when it broke or that the archaeologists estimated all the numbers since the dimensions listed are all round numbers. But their book's the only place I've been able to find any discussion at all about the dimensions of the "lost" ossuary.-- 74.207.77.138 15:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I am starting to think this page needs protection from anonymous editors. Any thoughts? Heathhunnicutt 22:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed some trails of quotation marks that lead me to fear that previously attributed material has made its way into the article as non-quoted text. This would be a WP:Copyvio. Consider, for example, this old revision [1] and the statement
The use of limestone ossuaries and the varied scriptstyles are characteristic of that time
that has made its way into the article mostly unattributed. As I am writing, we are at this revision: [2] and you can see there is a dangling quotation mark remaining. Heathhunnicutt 05:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This will get controversial. I think it's necessary with a story like this to add citations at every single fact. LukeSurl 01:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this line in the article should be kept, but placed somewhere else (perhaps in a section titled "Conflict with Common Christian Beliefs"): Christian tradition holds that Jesus was buried in a tomb at the location of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Christianity holds to a belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Anthius.
I tried to consolidate the Support section to contain subsections for some of the cited evidence. I think Support and Criticism need to be maintained as whole sections for the sake of the article having any cohesion. Heathhunnicutt 05:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article said "Frank Moore Cross, a professor emeritus in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University, told Discovery News, ”The inscriptions are from the Herodian Period (which occurred from around1 B.C. to 1 A.D.). " This quote is attributed to wordpress.com who are quoting someone "Discovery News", so it may be a typo or cumulative error, but it is wrong. Per Herod the Great one of the "Herods" he ruled from "(c. 74 BC – c. 4 in Jerusalem)." and another Agrippa I "Agrippa I also called the Great (10 BCE - 44 CE), King of the Jews, the grandson of Herod the Great, and son of Aristobulus IV and Berenice. His original name was Marcus Julius Agrippa, and he is the king named Herod in the Acts of the Apostles, in the Bible, 'Herod (Agrippa)'". Since the dates for "Herod" make no sense I removed it here until it can be straightened out. Nothing should go into such a controversial article unless accurately cited. The text as it it was is saying that Jesus got married and had a son then was buried before he was 5 years old, since he is believed to have been born 1 BC to 5 BC. Find the original article which may have been misquoted at wordpress.com and restore a corrected quote. Edison 00:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
To be conservative, [Feuerverger] next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.
If someone is going to cite an inscription contesting a translation, they need to move it somewhere else in a section clearly labeled as disputed, not "blindly" editorialized in the Inscription section which should contain simply the facts, i.e., how the inscriptions read. If there is a dispute concerning insciptions, all sources should be identified so it is clear whether sources are "theologians", "documentarists", etc. rather than specialists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pkuchnicki ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, disputes the translation. He also disputes the results of a mathematician who did a probabilistic analysis of the names. Perhaps Dr. Pfann would be so kind as to correct a few countries's economies or critique some classic literature, or revise the special theory of relativity. Dr. Pfann makes the case that James Cameron is none of these. Yet it is on the backs of specialists (epigraphers, mathematicians and biologists) that conclusions are drawn. It would seem more logical to debate the four epigraphers on their findings and credentials that Mr. Cameron. I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss Mr. Cameron's claims as unqualified while he himself who has no academic standing in mathematics or statistics does not hesitate to dismiss their methodology and conclusions. One has to wonder whether his emotions and attachments to Christianity have clouded his scientific judgement.-- pkuchnicki 01:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This is wrong: "Six of the ten names are claimed [...]" There are no ten names at all. There were originally ten ossuaries, of which one is reportedly lost. Of the remaining nine ones only six have an inscription at all. The other three ossuaries have no names associated with them.
It is the same as saying the inscriptions are "highly disputed", being that the reference refers to Michael S. Heiser, who goes after anyone who does not fit his narrow view of the Bible. When one goes after UFO and alien theorists, then I take their comments with a grain of salt. So, saying it is "highly" is stretching the truth until it snaps.-- Craxd ( talk) 00:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
It is NOT sufficient to quote people in various sections as though the mere utterance of their opinion was the equivalent of fact. If supporting facts or logic are not supplied, the statement is, ipso facto, an opinion and needs to be qualified clearly as such. I do not have any issue with someone giving me their opinion. I do have a problem with someone passing off an opinion as fact. Facts are supported by data or tight reasoning. Opinions are not supported by anything other than an "appeal to authority" which is bogus. That being said, it is understandable to some extent when "authorities" are quoted in a section CLEARLY LABELED as Criticism. That's fair enough since they don't pretend to be factually or logically based and in fact, are not and there is, in my opinion, a place for opinion at times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pkuchnicki ( talk • contribs) 03:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
This is going to get tricky. It's archeology, either mixed with - or versus - theology, according to taste. We are dealing with hard science on the one hand, pseudoscience in the middle, and people's emotions and beliefs on the other. We therefore need ONE article - this one - confined STRICTLY to dates, locations, and physical aspects of the discovery, burial of found remains, inscriptions etc. We then need another article dealing with controversy, speculation, criticism, debunking etc. Otherwise this page is going to grow like topsy and become a mess of 'von Daniken' - style pseudoscience and various religious rantings. I would suggest that everything from the 'Support' paragraph downwards belongs in a different article called 'Controversy Regarding the Talpiot Tomb' ChrisRed 09:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Something ironic. :-) I notice that someone added a link to the article I wrote on the epigraphy of the "Yeshua` bar Yehosef" inscription, but that it was later removed as a "bad source." I'm a professional Aramaic translator. It's my vocation. :-) Since I don't want to mess with links to my own page, as that's not in the spirit of Wikipedia, I wonder what the problem was? אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 17:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
All the sections below the "The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb" header has to do with those two works, the claims made in those works, or the controversy surrounding those works. Why are these subjects disassociated from the relevant header? Are the two sections named Support and Criticism about support and criticism of the actual tomb itself, or about support and criticism of those two works? If about the tomb itself, what do they support or criticize about the tomb? Is the connection to the James ossuary made anywhere besides in those two works? This header organization makes no sense and should be changed. Ecto 23:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this a real photograph of the tomb? I saw a report on TV and it looked very different. The reporter was standing beside a slab over a raised hole, not an entranceway carved in rock. Ecto 01:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is a picture of the tomb when it was uncovered in the 1980. After the construction was completed near the tomb it was covered over again, I believe. In the late 80's they sealed it up for safety because two children got inside. That is what the concrete slab is from. - Stephen (15:09, 11 April 2009)
the "Ossuary of Jesus son of Joseph" whose picture is shown does not come from Talpiot Tomb, i think it should be specified — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.204.247.151 ( talk) 13:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
"Dean" also means "the leader or senior member of a group;" Synonyms are doyen/doyenne, elder statesman, grande dame, grand old man, veteran. "Dean" therefore is not merely an academic staff title. For example, so and so is "the dean of California winemakers" or "The Papal Nuncio is the dean of the diplomatic corps in the Philippines and several other countries." See also Wikipedia on "Nuncio": "Under the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a papal nuncio is an ambassador like those from any other country. However, the Vienna Convention allows the receiving state to grant seniority of precedence to the papal nuncio over others of ambassadorial rank accredited to the same country, and may grant the deanship of that country's diplomatic corps to the nuncio regardless of seniority.[1]" [bold print highlighting mine -- Wikingvi ( talk) 07:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)wikingvi] And I would be very surprised if any accredited scholar from the biblical archaeological field in the U.S.A. would deny that title to William Dever. He certainly is, metaphorically, an "elder statesman," a senior member, a very senior member and very well respected by Christian, Jewish, and non-believer biblical archaeologists and therefore may rightly be referred to as "dean" of biblical archaelogy among U.S. scholars. See /info/en/?search=William_G._Dever -- he has a doctorate from Harvard University that dates back to 1966 way before any of upstart pseudo-biblical-archaeologists were even born. His assessment of the biblical archaeological conclusions of the film =The Lost Tomb of Jesus= should be given very great weight by Wikipedia. He is one of the more reliable biblical archaeology scholars in the U.S. and he is not a person of faith who would try to defend the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. He is one of the most neutral scholars on the question of the so-called Lost Tomb of Jesus, and trusted by both Jewish and Christian scholars (Catholic or non-Catholic) and by secular scholars. Wikingvi ( talk) 07:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)wikingvi
What does "and is widely considered the dean of biblical archaeology among U.S. scholars" mean? "Dean" is an academic -staff- title. אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 17:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
So in all the media coverage this has received, there is one question that I have yet to hear anyone ask or answer... and it strikes me as a pretty important one...
When they removed the bones from the ossuaries in 1980, did anyone notice if the bones from the "Jesus" ossuary had marks of crucifixion? I would assume that a detail like that would have made it into the original report before they re-buried the bones in the unmarked graves. Since the theory is that Jesus's grave is undecorated because it was made in haste to his untimely death... did the bones corroborate this theory and show that he was crucified? Is it just me or doesn't a huge amount of the authenticity rest on this question? David Bergan 18:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This was the most obvious question to me when I saw the film. I even raised it in a email question to James Tabor. This would settle the question far more than probability statistics around the insriptions. How does one find those original bones and open them up to study? 01:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)~~-- Jallport ( talk) 01:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I have added a table that is precising the calculation for the joint probability of the 4 names. In the text, it is said:
Some of the study's assumptions include:
But the calculation available on Discovery website and detailled previously in the text does not require these assumptions. Feuerverger's calcul simply estimates the joint probability of the occurence of the 4 names assuming statistical independence and does not require knowledge of eventual familly links. Note that "Jesus son of Joseph" is also a joint probability of the simultaneous presence of the name Joseph and Jesus. According to the table given by Richard Bauckham, the probability of "Jesus son of Joseph" should even be lower and equal to 8.3%x3.8%= 0.32% or 1 in 317. I think that the text quoted above should be removed because it does not reflect the statistical reasoning followed by Feuerverger. Sfoucher 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Many of these statements are way too strong. Andrey Feuerverger is a very senior and competent statistician, and it has not been shown that any of his calculations are mathematically incorrect. Wild assertions about "junior high school" are false and unhelpful. What I said, and I stand by, is that the dumbed-down version made available on the Discovery site is nonsense. The main error is the one Dianelos pointed out above (the coins and dice example). I made these points to Feuerverger some time ago, and he replied that his calculation was conditioned on various "ancillary" assumptions (search for "ancillary" in his statement). From a strictly mathematical point of view this is a good answer. The fundamental core of the problem is that statistical calculations are done within a enclosed mathematical world that is an abstraction of some given assumptions. This allows for errors of a non-mathematical nature caused by wrong assumptions, or by the dubious interpretation of some number, such as a probability, outside the mathematical world in which it has a strict meaning. The most common fallacy is that something is impressive just because it is associated with a small probability. Personally I am very dubious about the practice of conditioning on observations made of the data, rather than a priori, but I'm guessing that Feuerverger will provide an argument for this in his full paper. Finally, I highly recommend the lovely simulation Dianelos has posted here. McKay 06:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
You are confusing Feuerverger's calculation with what was shown on TV. For all practical purposes it is quite impossible for the TV show to have described a valid statistical calculation. Neither Jacobovici nor any other documentary maker would ever agree to it. (I'm writing this with lots of personal experience of trying to explain statistical concepts in TV shows.) This is regrettable but it's true. Even more regrettable is that the dumbed-down version on the TV show was not really intended to be rigorous but was more intended to impress the audience. Jacobovici knew that very few viewers would understand what the numbers meant and why anyone would want to multiply them together. All he really wanted to get across was that there was some qualified statistician out there who thought the combination of names was statistically surprising. As to your points, you need to read the newest edition of Feuerverger's statement. All of your points are addressed there. I am still very skeptical about the calculation, but I want to wait for the formal version before pronouncing it as invalid. (The non-mathematical assumptions, however, especially the one about Mary Magdelene, are historical nonsense but that is a different issue.) McKay 02:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Re #5 above: Dr. William C. Thompson (see Prosecutor's fallacy) has weighed in. In a quick informal review, he noted that Feuerverger's calculation, as presented in the film, "appears to be fallacious." Compare his explanation to Wikipedia's: Conditional probability#The conditional probability fallacy. He is certainly a quotable expert on this subject (one of the best, in fact) and his opinion definitely should be in the article. Can we use the link I gave above, or is its provenance too weak? It's a private e-mail message, forwarded (with permission) to an Internet discussion board. -- Evil-mer0dach 12:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I know there was DNA testing confirming that "Mary Magdalene" was not of the same family as "Jesus" (and hence could be a wife or lover)... but did they do any DNA testing to confirm that the other "Mary" was in fact the mother of "Jesus"? Or how about the family relations of the others... was "Jose" confirmed to be the brother of "Jesus"... "Judah" to be confirmed as his son...
It seems reasonable to assume that they would have done DNA tests on all the members... but then why don't we hear of the other results? The silence on this and my above crucifixion question suggests that the filmmakers either aren't asking some pretty basic questions... or they aren't telling us about evidence that contradicts their theory. They would have benefitted from peer-review. David Bergan 19:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The book claims that several of the ossuaries had been thoroughly cleaned before the investigation and no human residue could be found in them. The "Jesus, son of Joseph" ossuary had more organic material than any of the others, according to the book. -- 24.107.35.146 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The further problem with DNA evidence is that it was not uncommon to have the remains of several people put in one osuary. In several of these stone boxes there would likely be more than one person, which could be the case with this box (the name is wrong anyways-- the "ou" at the end of Mariamenou indicates possession, and is a derivative of Mariamenon, not Mariamne (which would be Mariamnes in the same context)).
Now I understand why Wikipedians are having so much difficulty reaching a consensus about the best way to present Feuerverger's statistical calculation.
After reading the "Office Hours" document and the Scientific American interview, it's clear to me that the calculation described in SciAm and OfficeHrs is a different calculation from the one which appeared in the TV show and in the Discovery Channel press releases, and which was also attributed to Feuerverger. Neither calculation is a "simplification" of the other, in any reasonable sense of the word; they are simply different calculations.
The Wikipedia section about the statistical calculation is a mess, because several editors have tried to "correct" the Wikipedia version (which was originally a verbatim copy of the Feuerverger/Discovery calculation) by slipping in bits and pieces of the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation. The result is a mongrel calculation which is clearly invalid, and doesn't make sense, and which we can't even attribute to a source because we created it ourselves from bits and pieces of two other calculations.
To clean up this mess, we need to pick just one calculation and stick with it: either Feuerverger/Discovery or Feuerverger/SciAm. Or we can present both, but we need to keep them separate; we can't take bits and pieces from both calculations and stitch them together.
Which calculation should we present?
The Feuerverger/Discovery calculation has been published in its entirety. Anyone can whip out a calculator and verify the arithmetic, and debate whether it really proves anything or even suggests anything.
The Feuerverger/SciAm calculation seems much more scholarly, but it has NOT yet been published. We only have a few hints about how it was done. No one can whip out a calculator and verify anything. No outside expert can analyze or criticize it, until Feuerverger allows outside experts to see it.
My suggestion, unless someone has a better idea, is this: We should present the Feuerverger/Discovery calculation in its entirety, verbatim. (It is quite short). We probably should try to summarize the ways in which the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation differs (though it would be difficult to do this accurately, with the very limited information currently available to us). And we should hint that better information will probably be available on Wikipedia, very soon after Feuerverger releases the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation to the world. -- Evil-mer0dach 01:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The following sections should be merged with The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb:
1. "Support"--about support for the documentary and book, not support for the actual tomb itself.
2. "Criticism"--about criticism of the documentary and book, not criticism of the actual tomb itself.
3. "Connection to James ossuary"--a ridiculous claim only made in the documentary and book, and refuted only in relation to the documentary and book.
3. "Inscriptions"--heavily disputed translations only presented by the documentary and book.
Why are these sections in this article? This content is relevant to the Talpiot tomb only by way of the documentary and book. All of these sections are about the documentary and book, and so should be merged with the articles about the documentary and book. They do not reflect the views of the wider scholarly community in regards to the tomb, but only present the material in or about the documentary and book (which are not scholarly works whatsoever). These sections should be merged into the proper articles. The "Lost tomb of Jesus and Jesus Family Tomb" section can then be expanded in summary style, with main article links provided. Ecto 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This section is disproportionately made up of links to conservative Protestant webpages. There should be a much more diverse list of links here, even among sources skeptical of Jacobovici and Pellegrino's claims. One website is even headlined "The undeniable reality of Christ's resurrection" and is clearly not at all dedicated to a critical assessment of the scientific and historical evidence concerning this or any of the other tombs with supposed links to Jesus. As a non-expert on the subject, I would really appreciate more emphasis in this section on archaeologists or statisticians who challenge the claims of the book and documentary rather than religious proselytization. The purpose of this page is not really to chronicle the overall debate re: the resurrection or Christ's divinity, is it?
-- 24.107.35.146 22:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know what the circular geometrc patterns on the ossuaries are. Does anyone know this or have a reference for it? Sandwich Eater 15:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in whether this is the tomb of the historical (i.e. REAL) Jesus, not the character that appears in Christian mythology. Obviously mythic and metaphorical elements have already been added to the story (virgin birth, walking on water and other magic, etc.). Is there any reason or evidence to believe the crucifixion took place in actuality? And how would finding evidence of the body in this tomb having been crucified or not prove or disprove that this is the historical Jesus except of course for a devoted (and therefore inherently biased) Christian who already believes in the myth as being literally true? Rglong 05:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Gilabrand, I'm sure your edits are well-intentioned, but you simply don't know enough about this subject to attempt a major rewrite. You need to read (and understand) all the sources on which this article is based, before you attempt to rewrite the article.
Your edits and summaries contain numerous factual errors and misunderstandings. No, it is not a natural cave; it's a man-made tomb. Yes, the text "Jesus, son of Joseph" is disputed. Yes, bones were found in the tomb. Yes, James Cameron has been responsible for many very famous Hollywood movies. No, the "James Ossuary" is not one of the ten ossuaries that were discovered when the Talpiot tomb was opened. No, there was not any bone material found in the James ossuary.
The main effect of your edits has been to compromise the accuracy of this article, so I have reverted them. You are welcome to continue to edit, but I hope you will do a lot of studying first. 70.171.59.131 17:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Since all the "evidence" rests on the inscriptions - has it ever been checked whether they are as old as the ossuaries? The tenth (re-discovered) one "maybe" had the line "son of..." added, is stated in the film - maybe? This seems like the crucial point to me. ALu06 01:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the paragraphs below which were apparently inserted into the article by Pellegrino. While his opinion may be of interest the article isn't a forum. Gr8white ( talk) 23:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Charles Pellegrino comments: To begin, Joe Zias, mentioned above, wanted me to sign the above statement with him. Bizarrely, he sought my support (as a credible forensic archaeologist) by e-mailing me a photograph of the ossuary inscribed, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus," captioned with the words, "On his throne." The "throne" was a toilet. When I decided I wanted nothing to do with Zias or his letter of protest, then (and only then) I was no longer a credible forensic archaeologist and the trashing of my own name began. As for the statement itself - the assertion that all archaeologists, epigraphers, scientists involved in Princeton's Jerusalem Symposium regard the Talpiot Tomb case as discredited and closed is simply not accurate and is, at best, somewhat biased and unbalanced. The math says so: While most of those named in the letter of protest are scientists of high standing who have been providing good counter-arguments based on legitimate scientific skepticism, the statement that all scientists/archaeologists involved in the January 2008 symposium have denounced the observations of Ruth Gat and the legitimacy of the Talpiot Tomb hypothesis happens to be patently false. To begin with, no polls of opinions were ever taken, either during or after the symposium. There were in fact 65 scientists attending the symposium and submitting papers for the Proceedings. I was one of them; and along with at least five other archaeologists personally known to me from the proceedings, our interpretations of the evidence run counter to Zias and the 12 - who but fractionally represent the attendees.
It should also be noted that even in the Vatican (where it would seem, at least to s simple mind such as mine, that people speak with some authority about whether the Talpiot Tomb results are truly "Christian-Bashing" or "resurrection denial"), Jesuits and Fransiscans have been quite interested in some of the recent bio-concretion and fiber evidence emerging from the Jesus ossuary's fiber evidence. It should be further noted that I have been on record for over a year, saying that except for a degraded fragment from a metacarpal (wrist bone: "as if popped out like a wisdom tooth"), there was never any skeletal material in the Jesus ossuary and only two cloths of unusual composition were placed inside. Further, all of the trace fibers - all of them - are anomalously pristine and were never in contact with decay products from a primary burial. In other words, we have a missing body. While some Vatican types see this and other emerging evidence as "proof" of the resurrection, there are other explanations and as a doubter, that's where I believe the Razor points (toward a possible body thief who evidently could not have been one of the apostles). Of further note, an apocryphal Philip gospel, completely intact and in the Vatican archive, refers to an adopted son of Jesus who was called his brother. This is consistent with Roman law, in which children or grandchildren of a man accused of sedition were always killed - bearing in mind that the Romans recognized no distinction between adoption and blood (and that emperor Tiberius was Augustus' adopted son), the Romans had a unique quirk of allowing siblings (like James and Judas Thomas) to live. There is apocryphal and canonical evidence indicating that this adopted son called brother (and "twin") was Didymos Judas Thomas. So, the Judas son of Jesus inscription is consistent. Of final note, I agree with Tal Ilan, and with evidence pointed out by the Jesuits, that Jesus and Mary Magdalene (Mariamene) were not married, and that she was a leading re-uniter of the early Jesus movement by virtue of much greater strengths than mere marriage to the founding Prophet. I admit this much: in the beginning, some of us (myself included) were a little too Da Vinci-coded out. The real story seems rather more fascinating and unpredictable than that. Stay tuned for scientific monographs. - C.R.P.
One thing the article very much needs but does not have: A list of the various ossuary inscribed names, complete with variant versions. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems that even the merest mention of Feuerverger's statistical analysis has been expunged from the article. Anyway, the news is that it was published, together with a lot of (mostly negative) commentary and a rejoinder, in the eminent journal The Annals of Applied Statistics. Feuerverger has kindly provided a copy on his web page. Some mention in our article is clearly indicated. McKay ( talk) 01:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I see Christians have heavily edited this article...many updates are included above paragraphs stating the same thing with less detail. It seems whoever wanted to have wikipedia seemingly discredit any of the science that went into the claim that this was likely the Jesus family tomb was in a real rush! 72.204.36.90 ( talk) 00:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I was pointed to this page today by my colleague Mark Elliott, who asked that I look at it with an eye to doing some editing because he felt that the article lacks balance. I read it today and I agree that the article is represented heavily by persons who reside on the "tomb-means-little" side of the debate. My feedback is that the article is incomplete, and part of the issue here may be that this Wikipedia article has not bothered to look at publications beyond early 2008. Mark Elliott and I have written somewhat on this topic from 2007 to the present time. We were invited to the Princeton conference in 2008 to present our statistical analyses, but did not attend because of employment issues. However, if one can cite the statistical contributions by Ingermanson and Cost, one ought to be able to cite Elliott and I because I think it would add to completeness in the Wikipedia presentation. One might also summarize the findings of Camille Fuchs. By completeness I maintain that Elliott and I have looked at this tomb controversy from several standpoints not explicitly covered here. For example, we have looked at claims that scholars make regarding the inscriptions, common-ness of names versus common-ness of the group of names, likelihood of Jesus being buried in a tomb of this sort, variations among the Gospels on the burial, "resurrection", patrimony versus place names in the inscriptions, and so forth. We find that Bible scholars often make claims not supported by evidence. We lay out the assumptions behind our statistical calculations, and while we use Bayesian inference in the manner of Ingermanson and Cost, we take a very different approach that uses only inscriptions as our "evidence" in calculation of the pertinent likelihood ratios. Some of our recent work one may find on the site http://www.bibleinterp.com which is a venture supported by the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Wyoming. Kkilty ( talk) 00:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Interesting discovery made near this tomb. Don't know if this is relevant. Machinarium ( talk) 15:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Jerry Lutgen. I have been studying the Talpiot Tomb for years and I have made several independent contributions to Talpiot Tomb related research. Additionally I am the editor of a site that is dedicated to educating the public regarding the Talpiot Tomb - www.talpiottomb.com. The editorial policy of this site is that even though the meaning of the Talpiot Tomb is controversial and uncertain, it is plausible that the Talpiot Tomb could be associated with the family of the biblical Jesus. However, since there are so many open questions related to the tomb, it should be the subject of further dispassionate debate and research.
As I read this wiki article it seems like it suffers from three problems; 1) it has had a lot of contributors over the years and hence it is kind of a mess, 2) despite all of the contributors it is still missing a lot of critical material, especially information that has arisen in recent months and 3) there are factual errors.
This is a very important subject and it has gotten even more important given the events of the last month, so I think it deserves some careful attention from experts on the subject. I am reluctant to just dive in and start making edits. I worry about adding to the messiness and triggering a round of re-edits. Is anyone open to working jointly on a new version - is that done in wiki? For example I would be willing to upload a "straw man" version to my website (talpiottomb.com) and those who were interested could download it and offer edits. My plan would be to keep as much of the current content and proposed edits as possible while trying to improve on the problems I listed above.
If you want, you can email me at jlutgen@jterp.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jllutgen ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
This could be useful for the article. [6]. Dougweller ( talk) 13:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
The article states "In 2011 Tabor and Jacobovici examined (although without fully excavating) the previously unexcavated 1st century Jewish tomb next to the alleged 'Jesus Family tomb'. The results of that examination have not yet been released. Tabor has indicated that they will be released at a press conference in November 2011, and in a forthcoming book." It is now July 2012 and I know that National Geographic has done a television special on this expedition. It may be appropriate for someone to update the article. I am not myself familiar enough with archeological publications to know what would be considered reputable sources in this matter. Wickedjacob ( talk) 09:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I tweaked Second Temple- Third Temple period.<ref]Holy Bible - Revised Standard Version, Dictionary p.30 (Melton Book Co., 1971)</ref] King Solomon's Temple was the First Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple was the 'Second Temple', and Herod's Temple was the 'Third Temple'. This is often messed up! The prophesied rebuilt temple will be the 'Fourth Temple'. - Ben Hirt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 17:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
The permit was issued Monday, March 31, but work actually began the day before: Palm Sunday<ref]Palm Sunday in United States - Time and Date www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/palm-sunday </ref]. I added "Palm Sunday" since this 'coincidence' is very important! - Ben Hirt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 17:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, it's becoming clearer to me now that you don't really understand the gist of the sentence you're modifying and you think that "Palm Sunday" stands alone as a link. The sentence reads "The permit was issued Monday, March 31, but work actually began the day before: Palm Sunday." What this sentence says is that even though the permit was issued on Monday, work began the previous day. The day before Monday. Palm Sunday. When you remove the colon it now says work began the day before Palm Sunday. Saturday. Which it didn't. The fact that it links to an article named "Palm Sunday" is really irrelevant, it would be the same if the link was removed. Links don't stand alone, they are in the context of the text. I would think with your vast experience in Wikipedia and your (allegedly) high IQ you would understand this. If you don't understand what I'm saying you should get an opinion from someone whose opinion you trust. Gr8white ( talk) 17:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad to see you finally realized your error and corrected it. As for the name-calling, well if that makes you feel better you know what they say about sticks and stones. Gr8white ( talk) 20:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
To Gr8white and other lazy and arrogant editors: 1. the reference was a dead link. I found it archived, and added that info. 2. the words "Palm Sunday", which were the cause of all the aggrevation here, were not in the source. I have therefore removed them with great pleasure. 3. The source is a blog, and you're lucky I don't kick out half of that paragraph.
Next time you want to pick a fight, first do your homework. And again, if you don't want to do anything constructive, do me a favor and don't edit at all. Debresser ( talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I concur with Wikingvi's opinion below. The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb imply a sectarian, storytelling connotation, which may be of interest to those in the fields of Theology & Religious Studies, Whereas Talpiot Tomb connotates facts- i.e. the description and history of the actual archaeological site, which may be of more interest to Historical researchers of all types, e.g. scholars, archaeologists, secular-minded individuals.
I see no reason for The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb to be separate articles. I support the position of DreamGuy below. I do however believe that these two aforementioned articles should =not= and never be merged with Talpiot Tomb. It seems that the scholarly consensus among accredited biblical archaeologists is that the claims of the film The Lost Tomb of Jesus are indefensible according to the discipline of biblical archaeology. To merge The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb with Talpiot Tomb would render Talpiot Tomb unnecessarily long and unwieldy and detract from the more scholarly focus on the Talpiot Tomb itself rather than on the film =The Lost Tomb of Jesus= and the book =The Jesus Family Tomb= which, most competent and neutral scholars,I submit, would quickly recognize to be of dubious or little scholarly value, or as DreamGuy more diplomatically describes, ". . . are not notable on their own." Wikingvi ( talk) 08:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I see no reason for The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb to be separate articles. Both of those are very long and go into all sorts of specifics based upon a documentary and book that are not notable on their own. Actual meat of those claims should all be handled neutrally and in one place. It appears those articles are basically there as content forks of this article to try to get around the normal policies for how subjects are treated neutrally and, as such, are violations of the undue weight section of our WP:NPOV policy as well as potentially the WP:FRINGE policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Debresser reverted my edit. I brought up the topic at his talk page and his only explanation was that the place is "according to some in Israel" and that "it is de facto there". It's not accepted to say that East Jerusalem or the rest of the occupied territories are in Israel. That's why we have articles such as List of Israeli cities instead of "in Israel". That's why we don't say that Old City (Jerusalem) is located in Israel. Saying that East Jerusalem is in Israel is not acceptable. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I've protected this article temporarily. If the editors involved can't resolve the dispute themselves, maybe they should seek a third opinion or some other form of dispute resolution. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 18:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
FYI discussion concluded is now archived at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive_44#Talpiot_Tomb_should_not_be_associated_with_Israel. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it can be used for something: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/09/living/jesus-tomb-talpiot-evidence/index.html Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 12:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
CNN provides a good article and it should be a link at the bottom of the article. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:64C1:516F:DB2B:1297 ( talk) 13:28, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
The section on Statistics is a complete mess. About half of it should be thrown out and the rest revised. Apparently nobody in the past 7 years noticed that Feuerverger actually withdrew his final calculation when he learned that he had been misinformed on Bovon's views. I added that, but it is buried in all the dross. McKay ( talk) 01:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
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Why is that so hard? Can't the page just do that at the top then talk about all the theories?-- JaredMithrandir ( talk) 01:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
The Jesus ossuary (IAA S-767) used as illustration for this article is not from this tomb. The Jesus ossuary from Talpiot (IAA 80.503, CJO 704) is not decorated. 08:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff ( talk • contribs)
@ DoctorJoeE: I believe that this page needs serious editing. The idea that Talpiot Tomb is Jesus's tomb has been rejected by basically all archaeologists and scholars, who have dismissed it as absurd. This page risks to legitimize it.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 21:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
So you see, this really is nonsense. It's fantasy, pseudo-science, just as The Da Vinci Code is. As you can see, I've added many sources that show how most scholars refute Jacobovici's claim and will add more, if I find them.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 09:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
See the link to the study here, not sure if should be added. Unfortunately I'm not able to link directly to the study itself. https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/new-evidence-james-ossuary-and-its-probable-connection-talpiot-jesus-tomb Semoniole ( talk) 20:47, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
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Do any of you know if the James Ossuary has any picture or designs on the front side or the side without the inscription?
Also, do any of you know the dimensions of the missing Talpiot Tomb ossuary. So far it has been unclear if the 10th ossuary is in reference to a different original talpiot tomb ossuary. This is to say that, the james ossuary connection might be in connection to some other ossuary rather than the commonally refenced 10th one in the reports. The use of the term 10th ossuary is somewhat ambigious; I can name any of the ossuaries to be the 10th one.
The book claims they were nearly identical in dimensions. There was a two and a half inch difference in one of the dimensions, I forget which, but they explain that by saying it could've either changed in size slightly when it broke or that the archaeologists estimated all the numbers since the dimensions listed are all round numbers. But their book's the only place I've been able to find any discussion at all about the dimensions of the "lost" ossuary.-- 74.207.77.138 15:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I am starting to think this page needs protection from anonymous editors. Any thoughts? Heathhunnicutt 22:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed some trails of quotation marks that lead me to fear that previously attributed material has made its way into the article as non-quoted text. This would be a WP:Copyvio. Consider, for example, this old revision [1] and the statement
The use of limestone ossuaries and the varied scriptstyles are characteristic of that time
that has made its way into the article mostly unattributed. As I am writing, we are at this revision: [2] and you can see there is a dangling quotation mark remaining. Heathhunnicutt 05:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This will get controversial. I think it's necessary with a story like this to add citations at every single fact. LukeSurl 01:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this line in the article should be kept, but placed somewhere else (perhaps in a section titled "Conflict with Common Christian Beliefs"): Christian tradition holds that Jesus was buried in a tomb at the location of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Christianity holds to a belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Anthius.
I tried to consolidate the Support section to contain subsections for some of the cited evidence. I think Support and Criticism need to be maintained as whole sections for the sake of the article having any cohesion. Heathhunnicutt 05:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article said "Frank Moore Cross, a professor emeritus in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University, told Discovery News, ”The inscriptions are from the Herodian Period (which occurred from around1 B.C. to 1 A.D.). " This quote is attributed to wordpress.com who are quoting someone "Discovery News", so it may be a typo or cumulative error, but it is wrong. Per Herod the Great one of the "Herods" he ruled from "(c. 74 BC – c. 4 in Jerusalem)." and another Agrippa I "Agrippa I also called the Great (10 BCE - 44 CE), King of the Jews, the grandson of Herod the Great, and son of Aristobulus IV and Berenice. His original name was Marcus Julius Agrippa, and he is the king named Herod in the Acts of the Apostles, in the Bible, 'Herod (Agrippa)'". Since the dates for "Herod" make no sense I removed it here until it can be straightened out. Nothing should go into such a controversial article unless accurately cited. The text as it it was is saying that Jesus got married and had a son then was buried before he was 5 years old, since he is believed to have been born 1 BC to 5 BC. Find the original article which may have been misquoted at wordpress.com and restore a corrected quote. Edison 00:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
To be conservative, [Feuerverger] next divided the resulting numbers by 25 percent, a statistical standard, and further divided the results by 1,000 to attempt to account for all tombs — even those that have not been uncovered — that could have existed in first century Jerusalem.
If someone is going to cite an inscription contesting a translation, they need to move it somewhere else in a section clearly labeled as disputed, not "blindly" editorialized in the Inscription section which should contain simply the facts, i.e., how the inscriptions read. If there is a dispute concerning insciptions, all sources should be identified so it is clear whether sources are "theologians", "documentarists", etc. rather than specialists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pkuchnicki ( talk • contribs) 03:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, disputes the translation. He also disputes the results of a mathematician who did a probabilistic analysis of the names. Perhaps Dr. Pfann would be so kind as to correct a few countries's economies or critique some classic literature, or revise the special theory of relativity. Dr. Pfann makes the case that James Cameron is none of these. Yet it is on the backs of specialists (epigraphers, mathematicians and biologists) that conclusions are drawn. It would seem more logical to debate the four epigraphers on their findings and credentials that Mr. Cameron. I find it a bit hypocritical to dismiss Mr. Cameron's claims as unqualified while he himself who has no academic standing in mathematics or statistics does not hesitate to dismiss their methodology and conclusions. One has to wonder whether his emotions and attachments to Christianity have clouded his scientific judgement.-- pkuchnicki 01:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This is wrong: "Six of the ten names are claimed [...]" There are no ten names at all. There were originally ten ossuaries, of which one is reportedly lost. Of the remaining nine ones only six have an inscription at all. The other three ossuaries have no names associated with them.
It is the same as saying the inscriptions are "highly disputed", being that the reference refers to Michael S. Heiser, who goes after anyone who does not fit his narrow view of the Bible. When one goes after UFO and alien theorists, then I take their comments with a grain of salt. So, saying it is "highly" is stretching the truth until it snaps.-- Craxd ( talk) 00:19, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
It is NOT sufficient to quote people in various sections as though the mere utterance of their opinion was the equivalent of fact. If supporting facts or logic are not supplied, the statement is, ipso facto, an opinion and needs to be qualified clearly as such. I do not have any issue with someone giving me their opinion. I do have a problem with someone passing off an opinion as fact. Facts are supported by data or tight reasoning. Opinions are not supported by anything other than an "appeal to authority" which is bogus. That being said, it is understandable to some extent when "authorities" are quoted in a section CLEARLY LABELED as Criticism. That's fair enough since they don't pretend to be factually or logically based and in fact, are not and there is, in my opinion, a place for opinion at times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pkuchnicki ( talk • contribs) 03:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
This is going to get tricky. It's archeology, either mixed with - or versus - theology, according to taste. We are dealing with hard science on the one hand, pseudoscience in the middle, and people's emotions and beliefs on the other. We therefore need ONE article - this one - confined STRICTLY to dates, locations, and physical aspects of the discovery, burial of found remains, inscriptions etc. We then need another article dealing with controversy, speculation, criticism, debunking etc. Otherwise this page is going to grow like topsy and become a mess of 'von Daniken' - style pseudoscience and various religious rantings. I would suggest that everything from the 'Support' paragraph downwards belongs in a different article called 'Controversy Regarding the Talpiot Tomb' ChrisRed 09:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Something ironic. :-) I notice that someone added a link to the article I wrote on the epigraphy of the "Yeshua` bar Yehosef" inscription, but that it was later removed as a "bad source." I'm a professional Aramaic translator. It's my vocation. :-) Since I don't want to mess with links to my own page, as that's not in the spirit of Wikipedia, I wonder what the problem was? אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 17:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
All the sections below the "The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb" header has to do with those two works, the claims made in those works, or the controversy surrounding those works. Why are these subjects disassociated from the relevant header? Are the two sections named Support and Criticism about support and criticism of the actual tomb itself, or about support and criticism of those two works? If about the tomb itself, what do they support or criticize about the tomb? Is the connection to the James ossuary made anywhere besides in those two works? This header organization makes no sense and should be changed. Ecto 23:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Is this a real photograph of the tomb? I saw a report on TV and it looked very different. The reporter was standing beside a slab over a raised hole, not an entranceway carved in rock. Ecto 01:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is a picture of the tomb when it was uncovered in the 1980. After the construction was completed near the tomb it was covered over again, I believe. In the late 80's they sealed it up for safety because two children got inside. That is what the concrete slab is from. - Stephen (15:09, 11 April 2009)
the "Ossuary of Jesus son of Joseph" whose picture is shown does not come from Talpiot Tomb, i think it should be specified — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.204.247.151 ( talk) 13:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
"Dean" also means "the leader or senior member of a group;" Synonyms are doyen/doyenne, elder statesman, grande dame, grand old man, veteran. "Dean" therefore is not merely an academic staff title. For example, so and so is "the dean of California winemakers" or "The Papal Nuncio is the dean of the diplomatic corps in the Philippines and several other countries." See also Wikipedia on "Nuncio": "Under the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, a papal nuncio is an ambassador like those from any other country. However, the Vienna Convention allows the receiving state to grant seniority of precedence to the papal nuncio over others of ambassadorial rank accredited to the same country, and may grant the deanship of that country's diplomatic corps to the nuncio regardless of seniority.[1]" [bold print highlighting mine -- Wikingvi ( talk) 07:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)wikingvi] And I would be very surprised if any accredited scholar from the biblical archaeological field in the U.S.A. would deny that title to William Dever. He certainly is, metaphorically, an "elder statesman," a senior member, a very senior member and very well respected by Christian, Jewish, and non-believer biblical archaeologists and therefore may rightly be referred to as "dean" of biblical archaelogy among U.S. scholars. See /info/en/?search=William_G._Dever -- he has a doctorate from Harvard University that dates back to 1966 way before any of upstart pseudo-biblical-archaeologists were even born. His assessment of the biblical archaeological conclusions of the film =The Lost Tomb of Jesus= should be given very great weight by Wikipedia. He is one of the more reliable biblical archaeology scholars in the U.S. and he is not a person of faith who would try to defend the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. He is one of the most neutral scholars on the question of the so-called Lost Tomb of Jesus, and trusted by both Jewish and Christian scholars (Catholic or non-Catholic) and by secular scholars. Wikingvi ( talk) 07:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)wikingvi
What does "and is widely considered the dean of biblical archaeology among U.S. scholars" mean? "Dean" is an academic -staff- title. אמר Steve Caruso ( desk/ AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 17:22, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
So in all the media coverage this has received, there is one question that I have yet to hear anyone ask or answer... and it strikes me as a pretty important one...
When they removed the bones from the ossuaries in 1980, did anyone notice if the bones from the "Jesus" ossuary had marks of crucifixion? I would assume that a detail like that would have made it into the original report before they re-buried the bones in the unmarked graves. Since the theory is that Jesus's grave is undecorated because it was made in haste to his untimely death... did the bones corroborate this theory and show that he was crucified? Is it just me or doesn't a huge amount of the authenticity rest on this question? David Bergan 18:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
This was the most obvious question to me when I saw the film. I even raised it in a email question to James Tabor. This would settle the question far more than probability statistics around the insriptions. How does one find those original bones and open them up to study? 01:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)~~-- Jallport ( talk) 01:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I have added a table that is precising the calculation for the joint probability of the 4 names. In the text, it is said:
Some of the study's assumptions include:
But the calculation available on Discovery website and detailled previously in the text does not require these assumptions. Feuerverger's calcul simply estimates the joint probability of the occurence of the 4 names assuming statistical independence and does not require knowledge of eventual familly links. Note that "Jesus son of Joseph" is also a joint probability of the simultaneous presence of the name Joseph and Jesus. According to the table given by Richard Bauckham, the probability of "Jesus son of Joseph" should even be lower and equal to 8.3%x3.8%= 0.32% or 1 in 317. I think that the text quoted above should be removed because it does not reflect the statistical reasoning followed by Feuerverger. Sfoucher 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Many of these statements are way too strong. Andrey Feuerverger is a very senior and competent statistician, and it has not been shown that any of his calculations are mathematically incorrect. Wild assertions about "junior high school" are false and unhelpful. What I said, and I stand by, is that the dumbed-down version made available on the Discovery site is nonsense. The main error is the one Dianelos pointed out above (the coins and dice example). I made these points to Feuerverger some time ago, and he replied that his calculation was conditioned on various "ancillary" assumptions (search for "ancillary" in his statement). From a strictly mathematical point of view this is a good answer. The fundamental core of the problem is that statistical calculations are done within a enclosed mathematical world that is an abstraction of some given assumptions. This allows for errors of a non-mathematical nature caused by wrong assumptions, or by the dubious interpretation of some number, such as a probability, outside the mathematical world in which it has a strict meaning. The most common fallacy is that something is impressive just because it is associated with a small probability. Personally I am very dubious about the practice of conditioning on observations made of the data, rather than a priori, but I'm guessing that Feuerverger will provide an argument for this in his full paper. Finally, I highly recommend the lovely simulation Dianelos has posted here. McKay 06:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
You are confusing Feuerverger's calculation with what was shown on TV. For all practical purposes it is quite impossible for the TV show to have described a valid statistical calculation. Neither Jacobovici nor any other documentary maker would ever agree to it. (I'm writing this with lots of personal experience of trying to explain statistical concepts in TV shows.) This is regrettable but it's true. Even more regrettable is that the dumbed-down version on the TV show was not really intended to be rigorous but was more intended to impress the audience. Jacobovici knew that very few viewers would understand what the numbers meant and why anyone would want to multiply them together. All he really wanted to get across was that there was some qualified statistician out there who thought the combination of names was statistically surprising. As to your points, you need to read the newest edition of Feuerverger's statement. All of your points are addressed there. I am still very skeptical about the calculation, but I want to wait for the formal version before pronouncing it as invalid. (The non-mathematical assumptions, however, especially the one about Mary Magdelene, are historical nonsense but that is a different issue.) McKay 02:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Re #5 above: Dr. William C. Thompson (see Prosecutor's fallacy) has weighed in. In a quick informal review, he noted that Feuerverger's calculation, as presented in the film, "appears to be fallacious." Compare his explanation to Wikipedia's: Conditional probability#The conditional probability fallacy. He is certainly a quotable expert on this subject (one of the best, in fact) and his opinion definitely should be in the article. Can we use the link I gave above, or is its provenance too weak? It's a private e-mail message, forwarded (with permission) to an Internet discussion board. -- Evil-mer0dach 12:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I know there was DNA testing confirming that "Mary Magdalene" was not of the same family as "Jesus" (and hence could be a wife or lover)... but did they do any DNA testing to confirm that the other "Mary" was in fact the mother of "Jesus"? Or how about the family relations of the others... was "Jose" confirmed to be the brother of "Jesus"... "Judah" to be confirmed as his son...
It seems reasonable to assume that they would have done DNA tests on all the members... but then why don't we hear of the other results? The silence on this and my above crucifixion question suggests that the filmmakers either aren't asking some pretty basic questions... or they aren't telling us about evidence that contradicts their theory. They would have benefitted from peer-review. David Bergan 19:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The book claims that several of the ossuaries had been thoroughly cleaned before the investigation and no human residue could be found in them. The "Jesus, son of Joseph" ossuary had more organic material than any of the others, according to the book. -- 24.107.35.146 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The further problem with DNA evidence is that it was not uncommon to have the remains of several people put in one osuary. In several of these stone boxes there would likely be more than one person, which could be the case with this box (the name is wrong anyways-- the "ou" at the end of Mariamenou indicates possession, and is a derivative of Mariamenon, not Mariamne (which would be Mariamnes in the same context)).
Now I understand why Wikipedians are having so much difficulty reaching a consensus about the best way to present Feuerverger's statistical calculation.
After reading the "Office Hours" document and the Scientific American interview, it's clear to me that the calculation described in SciAm and OfficeHrs is a different calculation from the one which appeared in the TV show and in the Discovery Channel press releases, and which was also attributed to Feuerverger. Neither calculation is a "simplification" of the other, in any reasonable sense of the word; they are simply different calculations.
The Wikipedia section about the statistical calculation is a mess, because several editors have tried to "correct" the Wikipedia version (which was originally a verbatim copy of the Feuerverger/Discovery calculation) by slipping in bits and pieces of the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation. The result is a mongrel calculation which is clearly invalid, and doesn't make sense, and which we can't even attribute to a source because we created it ourselves from bits and pieces of two other calculations.
To clean up this mess, we need to pick just one calculation and stick with it: either Feuerverger/Discovery or Feuerverger/SciAm. Or we can present both, but we need to keep them separate; we can't take bits and pieces from both calculations and stitch them together.
Which calculation should we present?
The Feuerverger/Discovery calculation has been published in its entirety. Anyone can whip out a calculator and verify the arithmetic, and debate whether it really proves anything or even suggests anything.
The Feuerverger/SciAm calculation seems much more scholarly, but it has NOT yet been published. We only have a few hints about how it was done. No one can whip out a calculator and verify anything. No outside expert can analyze or criticize it, until Feuerverger allows outside experts to see it.
My suggestion, unless someone has a better idea, is this: We should present the Feuerverger/Discovery calculation in its entirety, verbatim. (It is quite short). We probably should try to summarize the ways in which the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation differs (though it would be difficult to do this accurately, with the very limited information currently available to us). And we should hint that better information will probably be available on Wikipedia, very soon after Feuerverger releases the Feuerverger/SciAm calculation to the world. -- Evil-mer0dach 01:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The following sections should be merged with The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb:
1. "Support"--about support for the documentary and book, not support for the actual tomb itself.
2. "Criticism"--about criticism of the documentary and book, not criticism of the actual tomb itself.
3. "Connection to James ossuary"--a ridiculous claim only made in the documentary and book, and refuted only in relation to the documentary and book.
3. "Inscriptions"--heavily disputed translations only presented by the documentary and book.
Why are these sections in this article? This content is relevant to the Talpiot tomb only by way of the documentary and book. All of these sections are about the documentary and book, and so should be merged with the articles about the documentary and book. They do not reflect the views of the wider scholarly community in regards to the tomb, but only present the material in or about the documentary and book (which are not scholarly works whatsoever). These sections should be merged into the proper articles. The "Lost tomb of Jesus and Jesus Family Tomb" section can then be expanded in summary style, with main article links provided. Ecto 22:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This section is disproportionately made up of links to conservative Protestant webpages. There should be a much more diverse list of links here, even among sources skeptical of Jacobovici and Pellegrino's claims. One website is even headlined "The undeniable reality of Christ's resurrection" and is clearly not at all dedicated to a critical assessment of the scientific and historical evidence concerning this or any of the other tombs with supposed links to Jesus. As a non-expert on the subject, I would really appreciate more emphasis in this section on archaeologists or statisticians who challenge the claims of the book and documentary rather than religious proselytization. The purpose of this page is not really to chronicle the overall debate re: the resurrection or Christ's divinity, is it?
-- 24.107.35.146 22:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know what the circular geometrc patterns on the ossuaries are. Does anyone know this or have a reference for it? Sandwich Eater 15:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in whether this is the tomb of the historical (i.e. REAL) Jesus, not the character that appears in Christian mythology. Obviously mythic and metaphorical elements have already been added to the story (virgin birth, walking on water and other magic, etc.). Is there any reason or evidence to believe the crucifixion took place in actuality? And how would finding evidence of the body in this tomb having been crucified or not prove or disprove that this is the historical Jesus except of course for a devoted (and therefore inherently biased) Christian who already believes in the myth as being literally true? Rglong 05:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Gilabrand, I'm sure your edits are well-intentioned, but you simply don't know enough about this subject to attempt a major rewrite. You need to read (and understand) all the sources on which this article is based, before you attempt to rewrite the article.
Your edits and summaries contain numerous factual errors and misunderstandings. No, it is not a natural cave; it's a man-made tomb. Yes, the text "Jesus, son of Joseph" is disputed. Yes, bones were found in the tomb. Yes, James Cameron has been responsible for many very famous Hollywood movies. No, the "James Ossuary" is not one of the ten ossuaries that were discovered when the Talpiot tomb was opened. No, there was not any bone material found in the James ossuary.
The main effect of your edits has been to compromise the accuracy of this article, so I have reverted them. You are welcome to continue to edit, but I hope you will do a lot of studying first. 70.171.59.131 17:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Since all the "evidence" rests on the inscriptions - has it ever been checked whether they are as old as the ossuaries? The tenth (re-discovered) one "maybe" had the line "son of..." added, is stated in the film - maybe? This seems like the crucial point to me. ALu06 01:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the paragraphs below which were apparently inserted into the article by Pellegrino. While his opinion may be of interest the article isn't a forum. Gr8white ( talk) 23:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Charles Pellegrino comments: To begin, Joe Zias, mentioned above, wanted me to sign the above statement with him. Bizarrely, he sought my support (as a credible forensic archaeologist) by e-mailing me a photograph of the ossuary inscribed, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus," captioned with the words, "On his throne." The "throne" was a toilet. When I decided I wanted nothing to do with Zias or his letter of protest, then (and only then) I was no longer a credible forensic archaeologist and the trashing of my own name began. As for the statement itself - the assertion that all archaeologists, epigraphers, scientists involved in Princeton's Jerusalem Symposium regard the Talpiot Tomb case as discredited and closed is simply not accurate and is, at best, somewhat biased and unbalanced. The math says so: While most of those named in the letter of protest are scientists of high standing who have been providing good counter-arguments based on legitimate scientific skepticism, the statement that all scientists/archaeologists involved in the January 2008 symposium have denounced the observations of Ruth Gat and the legitimacy of the Talpiot Tomb hypothesis happens to be patently false. To begin with, no polls of opinions were ever taken, either during or after the symposium. There were in fact 65 scientists attending the symposium and submitting papers for the Proceedings. I was one of them; and along with at least five other archaeologists personally known to me from the proceedings, our interpretations of the evidence run counter to Zias and the 12 - who but fractionally represent the attendees.
It should also be noted that even in the Vatican (where it would seem, at least to s simple mind such as mine, that people speak with some authority about whether the Talpiot Tomb results are truly "Christian-Bashing" or "resurrection denial"), Jesuits and Fransiscans have been quite interested in some of the recent bio-concretion and fiber evidence emerging from the Jesus ossuary's fiber evidence. It should be further noted that I have been on record for over a year, saying that except for a degraded fragment from a metacarpal (wrist bone: "as if popped out like a wisdom tooth"), there was never any skeletal material in the Jesus ossuary and only two cloths of unusual composition were placed inside. Further, all of the trace fibers - all of them - are anomalously pristine and were never in contact with decay products from a primary burial. In other words, we have a missing body. While some Vatican types see this and other emerging evidence as "proof" of the resurrection, there are other explanations and as a doubter, that's where I believe the Razor points (toward a possible body thief who evidently could not have been one of the apostles). Of further note, an apocryphal Philip gospel, completely intact and in the Vatican archive, refers to an adopted son of Jesus who was called his brother. This is consistent with Roman law, in which children or grandchildren of a man accused of sedition were always killed - bearing in mind that the Romans recognized no distinction between adoption and blood (and that emperor Tiberius was Augustus' adopted son), the Romans had a unique quirk of allowing siblings (like James and Judas Thomas) to live. There is apocryphal and canonical evidence indicating that this adopted son called brother (and "twin") was Didymos Judas Thomas. So, the Judas son of Jesus inscription is consistent. Of final note, I agree with Tal Ilan, and with evidence pointed out by the Jesuits, that Jesus and Mary Magdalene (Mariamene) were not married, and that she was a leading re-uniter of the early Jesus movement by virtue of much greater strengths than mere marriage to the founding Prophet. I admit this much: in the beginning, some of us (myself included) were a little too Da Vinci-coded out. The real story seems rather more fascinating and unpredictable than that. Stay tuned for scientific monographs. - C.R.P.
One thing the article very much needs but does not have: A list of the various ossuary inscribed names, complete with variant versions. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems that even the merest mention of Feuerverger's statistical analysis has been expunged from the article. Anyway, the news is that it was published, together with a lot of (mostly negative) commentary and a rejoinder, in the eminent journal The Annals of Applied Statistics. Feuerverger has kindly provided a copy on his web page. Some mention in our article is clearly indicated. McKay ( talk) 01:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I see Christians have heavily edited this article...many updates are included above paragraphs stating the same thing with less detail. It seems whoever wanted to have wikipedia seemingly discredit any of the science that went into the claim that this was likely the Jesus family tomb was in a real rush! 72.204.36.90 ( talk) 00:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I was pointed to this page today by my colleague Mark Elliott, who asked that I look at it with an eye to doing some editing because he felt that the article lacks balance. I read it today and I agree that the article is represented heavily by persons who reside on the "tomb-means-little" side of the debate. My feedback is that the article is incomplete, and part of the issue here may be that this Wikipedia article has not bothered to look at publications beyond early 2008. Mark Elliott and I have written somewhat on this topic from 2007 to the present time. We were invited to the Princeton conference in 2008 to present our statistical analyses, but did not attend because of employment issues. However, if one can cite the statistical contributions by Ingermanson and Cost, one ought to be able to cite Elliott and I because I think it would add to completeness in the Wikipedia presentation. One might also summarize the findings of Camille Fuchs. By completeness I maintain that Elliott and I have looked at this tomb controversy from several standpoints not explicitly covered here. For example, we have looked at claims that scholars make regarding the inscriptions, common-ness of names versus common-ness of the group of names, likelihood of Jesus being buried in a tomb of this sort, variations among the Gospels on the burial, "resurrection", patrimony versus place names in the inscriptions, and so forth. We find that Bible scholars often make claims not supported by evidence. We lay out the assumptions behind our statistical calculations, and while we use Bayesian inference in the manner of Ingermanson and Cost, we take a very different approach that uses only inscriptions as our "evidence" in calculation of the pertinent likelihood ratios. Some of our recent work one may find on the site http://www.bibleinterp.com which is a venture supported by the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Wyoming. Kkilty ( talk) 00:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Interesting discovery made near this tomb. Don't know if this is relevant. Machinarium ( talk) 15:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Hello, my name is Jerry Lutgen. I have been studying the Talpiot Tomb for years and I have made several independent contributions to Talpiot Tomb related research. Additionally I am the editor of a site that is dedicated to educating the public regarding the Talpiot Tomb - www.talpiottomb.com. The editorial policy of this site is that even though the meaning of the Talpiot Tomb is controversial and uncertain, it is plausible that the Talpiot Tomb could be associated with the family of the biblical Jesus. However, since there are so many open questions related to the tomb, it should be the subject of further dispassionate debate and research.
As I read this wiki article it seems like it suffers from three problems; 1) it has had a lot of contributors over the years and hence it is kind of a mess, 2) despite all of the contributors it is still missing a lot of critical material, especially information that has arisen in recent months and 3) there are factual errors.
This is a very important subject and it has gotten even more important given the events of the last month, so I think it deserves some careful attention from experts on the subject. I am reluctant to just dive in and start making edits. I worry about adding to the messiness and triggering a round of re-edits. Is anyone open to working jointly on a new version - is that done in wiki? For example I would be willing to upload a "straw man" version to my website (talpiottomb.com) and those who were interested could download it and offer edits. My plan would be to keep as much of the current content and proposed edits as possible while trying to improve on the problems I listed above.
If you want, you can email me at jlutgen@jterp.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jllutgen ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
This could be useful for the article. [6]. Dougweller ( talk) 13:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
The article states "In 2011 Tabor and Jacobovici examined (although without fully excavating) the previously unexcavated 1st century Jewish tomb next to the alleged 'Jesus Family tomb'. The results of that examination have not yet been released. Tabor has indicated that they will be released at a press conference in November 2011, and in a forthcoming book." It is now July 2012 and I know that National Geographic has done a television special on this expedition. It may be appropriate for someone to update the article. I am not myself familiar enough with archeological publications to know what would be considered reputable sources in this matter. Wickedjacob ( talk) 09:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I tweaked Second Temple- Third Temple period.<ref]Holy Bible - Revised Standard Version, Dictionary p.30 (Melton Book Co., 1971)</ref] King Solomon's Temple was the First Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple was the 'Second Temple', and Herod's Temple was the 'Third Temple'. This is often messed up! The prophesied rebuilt temple will be the 'Fourth Temple'. - Ben Hirt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 17:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
The permit was issued Monday, March 31, but work actually began the day before: Palm Sunday<ref]Palm Sunday in United States - Time and Date www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/palm-sunday </ref]. I added "Palm Sunday" since this 'coincidence' is very important! - Ben Hirt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 17:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, it's becoming clearer to me now that you don't really understand the gist of the sentence you're modifying and you think that "Palm Sunday" stands alone as a link. The sentence reads "The permit was issued Monday, March 31, but work actually began the day before: Palm Sunday." What this sentence says is that even though the permit was issued on Monday, work began the previous day. The day before Monday. Palm Sunday. When you remove the colon it now says work began the day before Palm Sunday. Saturday. Which it didn't. The fact that it links to an article named "Palm Sunday" is really irrelevant, it would be the same if the link was removed. Links don't stand alone, they are in the context of the text. I would think with your vast experience in Wikipedia and your (allegedly) high IQ you would understand this. If you don't understand what I'm saying you should get an opinion from someone whose opinion you trust. Gr8white ( talk) 17:26, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad to see you finally realized your error and corrected it. As for the name-calling, well if that makes you feel better you know what they say about sticks and stones. Gr8white ( talk) 20:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
To Gr8white and other lazy and arrogant editors: 1. the reference was a dead link. I found it archived, and added that info. 2. the words "Palm Sunday", which were the cause of all the aggrevation here, were not in the source. I have therefore removed them with great pleasure. 3. The source is a blog, and you're lucky I don't kick out half of that paragraph.
Next time you want to pick a fight, first do your homework. And again, if you don't want to do anything constructive, do me a favor and don't edit at all. Debresser ( talk) 02:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I concur with Wikingvi's opinion below. The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb imply a sectarian, storytelling connotation, which may be of interest to those in the fields of Theology & Religious Studies, Whereas Talpiot Tomb connotates facts- i.e. the description and history of the actual archaeological site, which may be of more interest to Historical researchers of all types, e.g. scholars, archaeologists, secular-minded individuals.
I see no reason for The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb to be separate articles. I support the position of DreamGuy below. I do however believe that these two aforementioned articles should =not= and never be merged with Talpiot Tomb. It seems that the scholarly consensus among accredited biblical archaeologists is that the claims of the film The Lost Tomb of Jesus are indefensible according to the discipline of biblical archaeology. To merge The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb with Talpiot Tomb would render Talpiot Tomb unnecessarily long and unwieldy and detract from the more scholarly focus on the Talpiot Tomb itself rather than on the film =The Lost Tomb of Jesus= and the book =The Jesus Family Tomb= which, most competent and neutral scholars,I submit, would quickly recognize to be of dubious or little scholarly value, or as DreamGuy more diplomatically describes, ". . . are not notable on their own." Wikingvi ( talk) 08:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I see no reason for The Lost Tomb of Jesus and The Jesus Family Tomb to be separate articles. Both of those are very long and go into all sorts of specifics based upon a documentary and book that are not notable on their own. Actual meat of those claims should all be handled neutrally and in one place. It appears those articles are basically there as content forks of this article to try to get around the normal policies for how subjects are treated neutrally and, as such, are violations of the undue weight section of our WP:NPOV policy as well as potentially the WP:FRINGE policy. DreamGuy ( talk) 21:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Debresser reverted my edit. I brought up the topic at his talk page and his only explanation was that the place is "according to some in Israel" and that "it is de facto there". It's not accepted to say that East Jerusalem or the rest of the occupied territories are in Israel. That's why we have articles such as List of Israeli cities instead of "in Israel". That's why we don't say that Old City (Jerusalem) is located in Israel. Saying that East Jerusalem is in Israel is not acceptable. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 01:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I've protected this article temporarily. If the editors involved can't resolve the dispute themselves, maybe they should seek a third opinion or some other form of dispute resolution. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 18:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
FYI discussion concluded is now archived at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive_44#Talpiot_Tomb_should_not_be_associated_with_Israel. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:42, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it can be used for something: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/09/living/jesus-tomb-talpiot-evidence/index.html Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 12:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
CNN provides a good article and it should be a link at the bottom of the article. 2601:589:4705:C7C0:64C1:516F:DB2B:1297 ( talk) 13:28, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
The section on Statistics is a complete mess. About half of it should be thrown out and the rest revised. Apparently nobody in the past 7 years noticed that Feuerverger actually withdrew his final calculation when he learned that he had been misinformed on Bovon's views. I added that, but it is buried in all the dross. McKay ( talk) 01:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
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Why is that so hard? Can't the page just do that at the top then talk about all the theories?-- JaredMithrandir ( talk) 01:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
The Jesus ossuary (IAA S-767) used as illustration for this article is not from this tomb. The Jesus ossuary from Talpiot (IAA 80.503, CJO 704) is not decorated. 08:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff ( talk • contribs)
@ DoctorJoeE: I believe that this page needs serious editing. The idea that Talpiot Tomb is Jesus's tomb has been rejected by basically all archaeologists and scholars, who have dismissed it as absurd. This page risks to legitimize it.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 21:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
So you see, this really is nonsense. It's fantasy, pseudo-science, just as The Da Vinci Code is. As you can see, I've added many sources that show how most scholars refute Jacobovici's claim and will add more, if I find them.-- Karma1998 ( talk) 09:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
See the link to the study here, not sure if should be added. Unfortunately I'm not able to link directly to the study itself. https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/new-evidence-james-ossuary-and-its-probable-connection-talpiot-jesus-tomb Semoniole ( talk) 20:47, 6 October 2023 (UTC)