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Just got a little overzealous here. I'll try not to let it happen again. → Dyl @ n 620 02:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
-to use with this article-- J.D. ( talk) 18:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Anent this sentence: "Barnes, however, learns from Stan Goff that Whiting is responsible and, through his powerful political connections, threatens him and his family unless he halts the investigation and releases Barnes' passports."
I don't like "...through his powerful political connections..." as it doesn't seem clear in the film that this is the case. Isn't Barnes politically bankrupt at this point? All he has left is brute force, highlighted by the suspenseful home invasion scene. I would re-write it: "Barnes, however, learns from Stan Goff that Whiting is responsible. Barnes then threatens Whiting and his family unless he halts the investigation and releases Barnes' passports." Unless there is evidence that Barnes does threaten "through powerful political connections"
Ovid962 (
talk) 16:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
"The audience confusion mimics the confusion of the characters, who are enmeshed in the events around them without a clear understanding of what precisely is going on." This seems like OR. I'm not sure what "audience confusion" is referring to and the inference doesn't have a citation. Anyone object to me striking it? 75.100.94.22 ( talk) 04:14, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
On the 10th of January 2015, I made an edit to the Wasim plot line to remove the word cleric since there is no mention or hint that the man is a cleric in the movie. Aside from the fact that there is no traditional clergy in Islam, there isn't even a suggestion that the character is a learned scholar from an institution such as Al-Azhar or similar.
This edit was reverted soon after by Viriditas stating that all the secondary sources refer to him as a cleric.
What secondary sources are these? Could you please point me in their direction? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The new mr ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a summary. (It may be a biased summary, but is better than none.) I infer that
Amr Waked is a real person who is portrayed in the movie. If he is a real person, he should only be referred to as a cleric if
reliable sources refer to him as a cleric. I will add that if he is a real person, he should be linked in the article, whether redlinked or bluelinked. Being a character in a movie is a sort of notability for a real person that justifies an article. I am not closing the Third Opinion request because maybe another editor will provide a more definitive answer.
Robert McClenon (
talk) 15:10, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I do think it's strange to say that "many different sources on the subject" say something, and not give any hint of what those sources are; stranger still to label a request to name those sources as "trolling". I can also confirm that a simple Google search does not turn up any sources. But I don't give up easily, and by playing with search terms I turned up:
So, from a WP:V point of view, the word "cleric" may be used. Whether it needs to be used is another question. I personally don't think that removing the word makes the article any less informative. Scolaire ( talk) 16:48, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Good afternoon from the UK, and thank you for requesting another third opinion, however I am declining it as you have had two already, and it is in the nature of the 3O process that in such a case another is unlikely to help. If this issue is worth the candle (and since we are dealing with a fictional character search for a "true" answer may be futile) then perhaps you should try WP:Requests for Comment, the dispute resolution noticeboard, the talk page of a Wikiproject or one of the other WP:Dispute resolution options. Otherwise maybe it would be appropriate to WP:DISENGAGE for a while.
With all respect to you both, Springnuts ( talk) 11:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
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Should Amr Waked's character be defined a cleric? The new mr ( talk) 14:48, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Amr Waked's character in the film Syriana is listed as a cleric on the Wikipedia page. However, absolutely no reliable sources refer to him as such. The credits at the end of the film don't. The cast list on IMDb doesn't. He is not referred to as a cleric at any time in the movie. Stephen Gaghan, the film's writer and director, does not refer to him as a cleric etc etc. There are one or two articles from (now 404ed) entertainment websites that refer to him as a cleric. But this could easily have happened as a result of Citogenesis [1] as defined by the XKCD comic strip on the subject. Or just a misunderstanding on the part of the authors of these articles. I have no problem with the character being defined as either (in order of preference) a) a terrorist, b) a fanatic or c) an Islamic fundamentalist. However, listing him as a cleric seems to me to be both a) wholly incorrect (as per the sources) and b) at best, misinformed and, at worst, mischievous. Islam does not even have a concept of clergy [2]. Some of the references that mention a cleric are referring to an entirely different character. This seems to have been misunderstood by a few folks.
I would love to get some comments from people who a) understand that there are no clergy in Islam, b) have seen the movie to get the context and c) understand the significance of defining such a character as clergy. But of course welcome comments from everyone. Thanks for your time and comment. The new mr ( talk) 15:56, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Syriana article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
To-do list for Syriana:
|
Just got a little overzealous here. I'll try not to let it happen again. → Dyl @ n 620 02:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
-to use with this article-- J.D. ( talk) 18:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Anent this sentence: "Barnes, however, learns from Stan Goff that Whiting is responsible and, through his powerful political connections, threatens him and his family unless he halts the investigation and releases Barnes' passports."
I don't like "...through his powerful political connections..." as it doesn't seem clear in the film that this is the case. Isn't Barnes politically bankrupt at this point? All he has left is brute force, highlighted by the suspenseful home invasion scene. I would re-write it: "Barnes, however, learns from Stan Goff that Whiting is responsible. Barnes then threatens Whiting and his family unless he halts the investigation and releases Barnes' passports." Unless there is evidence that Barnes does threaten "through powerful political connections"
Ovid962 (
talk) 16:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
"The audience confusion mimics the confusion of the characters, who are enmeshed in the events around them without a clear understanding of what precisely is going on." This seems like OR. I'm not sure what "audience confusion" is referring to and the inference doesn't have a citation. Anyone object to me striking it? 75.100.94.22 ( talk) 04:14, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
On the 10th of January 2015, I made an edit to the Wasim plot line to remove the word cleric since there is no mention or hint that the man is a cleric in the movie. Aside from the fact that there is no traditional clergy in Islam, there isn't even a suggestion that the character is a learned scholar from an institution such as Al-Azhar or similar.
This edit was reverted soon after by Viriditas stating that all the secondary sources refer to him as a cleric.
What secondary sources are these? Could you please point me in their direction? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The new mr ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a summary. (It may be a biased summary, but is better than none.) I infer that
Amr Waked is a real person who is portrayed in the movie. If he is a real person, he should only be referred to as a cleric if
reliable sources refer to him as a cleric. I will add that if he is a real person, he should be linked in the article, whether redlinked or bluelinked. Being a character in a movie is a sort of notability for a real person that justifies an article. I am not closing the Third Opinion request because maybe another editor will provide a more definitive answer.
Robert McClenon (
talk) 15:10, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I do think it's strange to say that "many different sources on the subject" say something, and not give any hint of what those sources are; stranger still to label a request to name those sources as "trolling". I can also confirm that a simple Google search does not turn up any sources. But I don't give up easily, and by playing with search terms I turned up:
So, from a WP:V point of view, the word "cleric" may be used. Whether it needs to be used is another question. I personally don't think that removing the word makes the article any less informative. Scolaire ( talk) 16:48, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
Good afternoon from the UK, and thank you for requesting another third opinion, however I am declining it as you have had two already, and it is in the nature of the 3O process that in such a case another is unlikely to help. If this issue is worth the candle (and since we are dealing with a fictional character search for a "true" answer may be futile) then perhaps you should try WP:Requests for Comment, the dispute resolution noticeboard, the talk page of a Wikiproject or one of the other WP:Dispute resolution options. Otherwise maybe it would be appropriate to WP:DISENGAGE for a while.
With all respect to you both, Springnuts ( talk) 11:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Syriana. Please take a moment to review
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nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Syriana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Should Amr Waked's character be defined a cleric? The new mr ( talk) 14:48, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
Amr Waked's character in the film Syriana is listed as a cleric on the Wikipedia page. However, absolutely no reliable sources refer to him as such. The credits at the end of the film don't. The cast list on IMDb doesn't. He is not referred to as a cleric at any time in the movie. Stephen Gaghan, the film's writer and director, does not refer to him as a cleric etc etc. There are one or two articles from (now 404ed) entertainment websites that refer to him as a cleric. But this could easily have happened as a result of Citogenesis [1] as defined by the XKCD comic strip on the subject. Or just a misunderstanding on the part of the authors of these articles. I have no problem with the character being defined as either (in order of preference) a) a terrorist, b) a fanatic or c) an Islamic fundamentalist. However, listing him as a cleric seems to me to be both a) wholly incorrect (as per the sources) and b) at best, misinformed and, at worst, mischievous. Islam does not even have a concept of clergy [2]. Some of the references that mention a cleric are referring to an entirely different character. This seems to have been misunderstood by a few folks.
I would love to get some comments from people who a) understand that there are no clergy in Islam, b) have seen the movie to get the context and c) understand the significance of defining such a character as clergy. But of course welcome comments from everyone. Thanks for your time and comment. The new mr ( talk) 15:56, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
References