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Having read the discussion above I wonder whether there is any official WP “policy” or whatever (“guidelines”, “recommendations” etc) as to who should be listed among “leaders and commanders” in infoboxes of articles on wars and battles. Currently the assortment of people listed appears to be a fairly disputable selection to me (as to the point above, I believe Lister should be out). Please let me share my thoughts.
Republicans:
There are obvious must-be people:
However, among the rest none appears a must-be:
name | role | my suggestion |
---|---|---|
Prieto | minister of war from May 1937 till Apr 1938, also minister of air & navy from Sep 1936 till May 1937. Besides, one of PSOE leaders with major impact on party policy and policy-making in the Republican zone. After spring of 1938 barely relevant | in |
Casado | key protagonist behind the March 1939 coup, which had enormous impact on war developments. Besides this, he was commanding at the army level (March 1938 - March 1939), but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox (Army of Extremadura: Joaquín Pérez Salas, Ricardo Burillo, Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Antonio Escobar Huerta, Army of Andalusia: Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Domingo Moriones Larraga, Francisco Menoyo Baños, Army of Levante: Juan Hernández Saravia, Leopoldo Menéndez López) | in |
Companys | President of Catalan autonomous government throughout the entire war, though with decreasing decision-making capacity. However, he was an important player within the Republican coalition almost until the end (except 2 final months) | in |
Aguirre | President of Basque autonomous government, effectively in power in only 1 out of 3 Basque provinces and only between Oct 1936 and June 1937. Later, because he commanded no resources, his political role was negligible | out |
Martínez Cabrera | Yes, he was the chief of staff, but effectively merely for 3 months (mid-November 1936 till mid-Feb 1937) and is not known for having any impact on war developments. Manuel Matallana, who was also chief of general staff since late 1938, is not listed in the infobox | out |
Modesto | Commanding at the army level from August 1938 till March 1939, but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox | out |
Hernández Saravia | He was the minister of war during one month, between Aug and Sep 1936, and his impact on war developments was close to naught (also Luis Castelló Pantoja was briefly minister of war, but is not in the infobox). Later he briefly commanded Army of the South, again with little impact and again, there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox | out |
Durruti | Though an iconic person among the Anarchists of then and today, he barely classifies among “commanders and leaders”. In terms of command, he briefly (July – Nov 1936) led loose troops of few thousand people, comparable perhaps to a regiment. In terms of political leadership, the Anarchists were led by García Oliver, who is missing in the infobox | out |
Ascaso | Barely known for any military role, politically in Aug 1936 – Aug 1937 he led Regional Defense Council of Aragon, a local governing body, and then became a non-person. Between August 1936 and October 1937 a certain Belarmino Tomas was president of the local Asturias Council/Committee, a semi-sovereign body which certainly governed more people than the Aragon Council, but Tomas is out from the infobox | out |
Also, there are some individuals which might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox, though I would leave them out:
Nationalists:
Undisputable candidates are few:
and now the doubtful ones:
name | role | my suggestion |
---|---|---|
Sanjurjo | pre-agreed leader of the coup, but died in aviation accident before the coup well unfolded. A must-be in an article on conspiracy, and perhaps in an article on a coup, but not on the war | out |
Yague | commander of various military formations, from a "column" to a corps, but never above this level (never commanded an army), even though in the summer of 1936 his military role was vital. However, even commanders at the army level among Nationalist are out (Centre: Saliquet, Levante: Orgaz) | out |
Cabanellas | president of makeshift rebel executive between July and September 1936. Leader of the coup in Aragon, apart from this no major military role. Anyway since mid-1937 seriously ill, died 1938 | out |
Varela | since mid-war commanded formations comparable to a corps, but never above this level. Rather minor political role due to his monarchist leaning and loose links to Carlism | out |
Goded | led the coup in Barcelona, captured in July 1936 and executed. An imporant person in an article on the coup, but totally out of place among war leaders and commanders | out |
Hedilla | following imprisonment of Jose Antonio provisional leader of Falange, one of 2 most important political groupings supporting the rebels. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. Anyway, even this minor role was over in April 1937, when arrested, tried and totally marginalised | out |
Fal | political leader of the Carlists, one of 2 most important political groupings in the rebel zone. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. In December 1936 arrested and exiled, later merely on sidelines of wartime politics, with no impact and decision-making capacity whatsoever | out |
Roatta | commander of CTV between Sep 1936 and Aug 1937. CTV was 35-50,000 people, so comparable to a strong corps or a weak army, but other army commanders are generally not listed, either in the Republican or the Nationalist rubric | out |
Bastico | commander of CTV between Aug and Oct 1937. 3 months of command seems a bit short to merit a place in the infobox, especially that CTV was a merely one of many corps | out |
Sperle | commander of Legion Condor, Nazi airforce group which formed perhaps the most important component of the Nationalist aviation. However, it was just one of many components, and Sperle commanded it merely from Sep 1936 till Oct 1937. If he is in, why the following Condor commanders, Volkmann (Nov 1937 - Oct 1938) and Richthoffen (Oct 1938 - March 1939) are out? | out |
As to individuals who might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox (again, I would leave all of them out):
In case of both Republicans and Nationalists some names seem derived from "Belligerents" section of the infobox, i.e. the logic being that each "belligerent party" deserves its leader to be listed. First, I do not think so. Then, "belligerents" also contains a fairly nonsensical selection, e.g. there is "Army of Africa" among the Nationalists (what about all other armies, and navy, and airforce) and there is POUM among the Republicans (and PCE, far more important, is missing), let alone that "Germany" and "Italy" are listed among Nationalist belligerents, while the USSR is not listed among the Republican ones. But perhaps targeting the "Belligerents" section is the task to do once we are done with this.
Final general comment: I believe stuffing the infobox with 15 "commanders and leaders" on each side is an overkill. To my taste, 5-6 would be perfectly OK. rgds, -- Hh1718 ( talk) 13:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
On November 17, 2023, an anonymous user with IP (109.242.250.254) pointing to Greece edited the “Foreign Involvement” section. The edit consisted of moving the “Greece” sub-sub-section from the sub-section “Support for the Republicans” to the newly-created sub-section “Neutrality”. No rationale has been provided either in Comments or in talk page and not a single word has been added to the text.
Placing Greece back in the “Support for the Republicans” sub-section.
rgds, -- Hh1718 ( talk) 09:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
I just went through the article and found that we have a fair amount of information cited to Franco: A Personal and Political Biography, a hagiography written by the American historian Stanley G. Payne and Spanish neo-Nazi Jesús Palacios Tapias. While I am not the biggest fan of Payne, I don't doubt the scholarly integrity of his earlier work and think it could contribute to a well-balanced article that gives due weight to different perspectives. But I don't extend the same assumption of good faith to his work with Palacios, which I think is a rather questionable source, to say the least.
The introduction of information from this source has brought in some very dubious claims: i.e. that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election; that Mola had no role in the White Terror; and that Republicans "conducted more indiscriminate air raids on cities and civilian targets than the Nationalists". I have not seen such claims supported in any other source I have available to me, so I worry this amounts to flat-out historical revisionism. I can say for certain that Mola was a chief proponent of the White Terror (see Preston 2006); and I find the suggestion that the Republicans had the capacity to out-do the nationalists on air raids laughable, given the infamously terrible capabilities of the Spanish Republican Air Force (see Beevor 1982).
I have already provided in-text attribution to these claims, but I don't think this goes far enough. Given this would be a bold move, I wanted to bring it up in the talk page to seek consensus first: I think we should remove this source from the article altogether. I don't think it's a remotely reliable source and think this article actively suffers from its inclusion. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 12:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I recently left the following note on the talk page of the “July 1936 military uprising in Seville” article: /info/en/?search=July_1936_military_uprising_in_Seville
Why "low importance?"
"Why is this article rated of “low importance”? Aside from being thorough and well-written (I made no contribution), as I pointed out years ago on the main Spanish Civil War article, the rebels taking Seville was of critical importance without which the coup might well have failed. Without Seville and its nearby air force base, Franco would have not been able to get his Moroccan army to the mainland as the sea routes were defended by elements of the Spanish Republican Navy which did not join the coup. Originally, the main article stated that at the outset of the coup attempt the rebels seized no major cities (Seville was within the five largest cities in Spain) and I corrected this by writing “with the critical exception of Seville...”
I find this article to be superb, both well written and researched and replete with relevant images. (As stated in my note above, I made no contribution to the article so I’m not patting myself on the back!) The rebels taking Seville was absolutely critical to their ultimate success in the civil war, yet this article is rated as of “low importance” and B-. The first is absurd and the latter unworthy of the effort by editors, to all of whom I would like to express my appreciation for your time and work.
The article gets few views and its talk page virtually none, which is why I am bringing this up here. I’d have to wait until Hades freezes over to expect a response there. Would editors interested in this tragic internecine conflict please consider gathering together to rectify what I consider to be and hope to be an oversight? If any disagree with my assessment of the article, please indicate why. Thanks to all for your consideration. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 15:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Spanish Civil War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
Spanish Civil War was one of the Warfare good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Having read the discussion above I wonder whether there is any official WP “policy” or whatever (“guidelines”, “recommendations” etc) as to who should be listed among “leaders and commanders” in infoboxes of articles on wars and battles. Currently the assortment of people listed appears to be a fairly disputable selection to me (as to the point above, I believe Lister should be out). Please let me share my thoughts.
Republicans:
There are obvious must-be people:
However, among the rest none appears a must-be:
name | role | my suggestion |
---|---|---|
Prieto | minister of war from May 1937 till Apr 1938, also minister of air & navy from Sep 1936 till May 1937. Besides, one of PSOE leaders with major impact on party policy and policy-making in the Republican zone. After spring of 1938 barely relevant | in |
Casado | key protagonist behind the March 1939 coup, which had enormous impact on war developments. Besides this, he was commanding at the army level (March 1938 - March 1939), but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox (Army of Extremadura: Joaquín Pérez Salas, Ricardo Burillo, Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Antonio Escobar Huerta, Army of Andalusia: Adolfo Prada Vaquero, Domingo Moriones Larraga, Francisco Menoyo Baños, Army of Levante: Juan Hernández Saravia, Leopoldo Menéndez López) | in |
Companys | President of Catalan autonomous government throughout the entire war, though with decreasing decision-making capacity. However, he was an important player within the Republican coalition almost until the end (except 2 final months) | in |
Aguirre | President of Basque autonomous government, effectively in power in only 1 out of 3 Basque provinces and only between Oct 1936 and June 1937. Later, because he commanded no resources, his political role was negligible | out |
Martínez Cabrera | Yes, he was the chief of staff, but effectively merely for 3 months (mid-November 1936 till mid-Feb 1937) and is not known for having any impact on war developments. Manuel Matallana, who was also chief of general staff since late 1938, is not listed in the infobox | out |
Modesto | Commanding at the army level from August 1938 till March 1939, but there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox | out |
Hernández Saravia | He was the minister of war during one month, between Aug and Sep 1936, and his impact on war developments was close to naught (also Luis Castelló Pantoja was briefly minister of war, but is not in the infobox). Later he briefly commanded Army of the South, again with little impact and again, there are many who also were and are missing in the infobox | out |
Durruti | Though an iconic person among the Anarchists of then and today, he barely classifies among “commanders and leaders”. In terms of command, he briefly (July – Nov 1936) led loose troops of few thousand people, comparable perhaps to a regiment. In terms of political leadership, the Anarchists were led by García Oliver, who is missing in the infobox | out |
Ascaso | Barely known for any military role, politically in Aug 1936 – Aug 1937 he led Regional Defense Council of Aragon, a local governing body, and then became a non-person. Between August 1936 and October 1937 a certain Belarmino Tomas was president of the local Asturias Council/Committee, a semi-sovereign body which certainly governed more people than the Aragon Council, but Tomas is out from the infobox | out |
Also, there are some individuals which might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox, though I would leave them out:
Nationalists:
Undisputable candidates are few:
and now the doubtful ones:
name | role | my suggestion |
---|---|---|
Sanjurjo | pre-agreed leader of the coup, but died in aviation accident before the coup well unfolded. A must-be in an article on conspiracy, and perhaps in an article on a coup, but not on the war | out |
Yague | commander of various military formations, from a "column" to a corps, but never above this level (never commanded an army), even though in the summer of 1936 his military role was vital. However, even commanders at the army level among Nationalist are out (Centre: Saliquet, Levante: Orgaz) | out |
Cabanellas | president of makeshift rebel executive between July and September 1936. Leader of the coup in Aragon, apart from this no major military role. Anyway since mid-1937 seriously ill, died 1938 | out |
Varela | since mid-war commanded formations comparable to a corps, but never above this level. Rather minor political role due to his monarchist leaning and loose links to Carlism | out |
Goded | led the coup in Barcelona, captured in July 1936 and executed. An imporant person in an article on the coup, but totally out of place among war leaders and commanders | out |
Hedilla | following imprisonment of Jose Antonio provisional leader of Falange, one of 2 most important political groupings supporting the rebels. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. Anyway, even this minor role was over in April 1937, when arrested, tried and totally marginalised | out |
Fal | political leader of the Carlists, one of 2 most important political groupings in the rebel zone. However, with negligible impact on war developments or politics in the Nationalist zone. In December 1936 arrested and exiled, later merely on sidelines of wartime politics, with no impact and decision-making capacity whatsoever | out |
Roatta | commander of CTV between Sep 1936 and Aug 1937. CTV was 35-50,000 people, so comparable to a strong corps or a weak army, but other army commanders are generally not listed, either in the Republican or the Nationalist rubric | out |
Bastico | commander of CTV between Aug and Oct 1937. 3 months of command seems a bit short to merit a place in the infobox, especially that CTV was a merely one of many corps | out |
Sperle | commander of Legion Condor, Nazi airforce group which formed perhaps the most important component of the Nationalist aviation. However, it was just one of many components, and Sperle commanded it merely from Sep 1936 till Oct 1937. If he is in, why the following Condor commanders, Volkmann (Nov 1937 - Oct 1938) and Richthoffen (Oct 1938 - March 1939) are out? | out |
As to individuals who might merit consideration as to their place in the infobox (again, I would leave all of them out):
In case of both Republicans and Nationalists some names seem derived from "Belligerents" section of the infobox, i.e. the logic being that each "belligerent party" deserves its leader to be listed. First, I do not think so. Then, "belligerents" also contains a fairly nonsensical selection, e.g. there is "Army of Africa" among the Nationalists (what about all other armies, and navy, and airforce) and there is POUM among the Republicans (and PCE, far more important, is missing), let alone that "Germany" and "Italy" are listed among Nationalist belligerents, while the USSR is not listed among the Republican ones. But perhaps targeting the "Belligerents" section is the task to do once we are done with this.
Final general comment: I believe stuffing the infobox with 15 "commanders and leaders" on each side is an overkill. To my taste, 5-6 would be perfectly OK. rgds, -- Hh1718 ( talk) 13:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
On November 17, 2023, an anonymous user with IP (109.242.250.254) pointing to Greece edited the “Foreign Involvement” section. The edit consisted of moving the “Greece” sub-sub-section from the sub-section “Support for the Republicans” to the newly-created sub-section “Neutrality”. No rationale has been provided either in Comments or in talk page and not a single word has been added to the text.
Placing Greece back in the “Support for the Republicans” sub-section.
rgds, -- Hh1718 ( talk) 09:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
I just went through the article and found that we have a fair amount of information cited to Franco: A Personal and Political Biography, a hagiography written by the American historian Stanley G. Payne and Spanish neo-Nazi Jesús Palacios Tapias. While I am not the biggest fan of Payne, I don't doubt the scholarly integrity of his earlier work and think it could contribute to a well-balanced article that gives due weight to different perspectives. But I don't extend the same assumption of good faith to his work with Palacios, which I think is a rather questionable source, to say the least.
The introduction of information from this source has brought in some very dubious claims: i.e. that the Republican Left tried to annul the 1933 election; that Mola had no role in the White Terror; and that Republicans "conducted more indiscriminate air raids on cities and civilian targets than the Nationalists". I have not seen such claims supported in any other source I have available to me, so I worry this amounts to flat-out historical revisionism. I can say for certain that Mola was a chief proponent of the White Terror (see Preston 2006); and I find the suggestion that the Republicans had the capacity to out-do the nationalists on air raids laughable, given the infamously terrible capabilities of the Spanish Republican Air Force (see Beevor 1982).
I have already provided in-text attribution to these claims, but I don't think this goes far enough. Given this would be a bold move, I wanted to bring it up in the talk page to seek consensus first: I think we should remove this source from the article altogether. I don't think it's a remotely reliable source and think this article actively suffers from its inclusion. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 12:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
I recently left the following note on the talk page of the “July 1936 military uprising in Seville” article: /info/en/?search=July_1936_military_uprising_in_Seville
Why "low importance?"
"Why is this article rated of “low importance”? Aside from being thorough and well-written (I made no contribution), as I pointed out years ago on the main Spanish Civil War article, the rebels taking Seville was of critical importance without which the coup might well have failed. Without Seville and its nearby air force base, Franco would have not been able to get his Moroccan army to the mainland as the sea routes were defended by elements of the Spanish Republican Navy which did not join the coup. Originally, the main article stated that at the outset of the coup attempt the rebels seized no major cities (Seville was within the five largest cities in Spain) and I corrected this by writing “with the critical exception of Seville...”
I find this article to be superb, both well written and researched and replete with relevant images. (As stated in my note above, I made no contribution to the article so I’m not patting myself on the back!) The rebels taking Seville was absolutely critical to their ultimate success in the civil war, yet this article is rated as of “low importance” and B-. The first is absurd and the latter unworthy of the effort by editors, to all of whom I would like to express my appreciation for your time and work.
The article gets few views and its talk page virtually none, which is why I am bringing this up here. I’d have to wait until Hades freezes over to expect a response there. Would editors interested in this tragic internecine conflict please consider gathering together to rectify what I consider to be and hope to be an oversight? If any disagree with my assessment of the article, please indicate why. Thanks to all for your consideration. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 15:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)