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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:IDENTITY#Gender-neutral_language.5BR.5D Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: She fathered her first child). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nirame ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Hi. I don't think we can apply the 'latest identification' rule, since MOS:IDENTITY doesn't define how to handle non-binary gender, and as far as I can tell, Burgess' gender was not binary at the time of his death. Therefore, I think we have to follow the 'clarity' prescription from the 'gender-neutral language' section. Looking over the article I can only spot one sentence using a pronoun with Burgess as referent, namely "but continued to use his birth name and gender in his professional life"; since the referents of the noun-phrases ("his birth name and gender", "his professional life") are both associated with his male identification, I would suggest keeping 'his' as used in the current version of the page.
Incidentally, my personal solution to issues like these (which I am using in this talk post but not suggesting applying to the article) is simply to treat 'he' as having a secondary gender-neutral meaning, for which some etymological justification exists.— PT ( talk) 15:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC) |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Most editors offered reasonable arguments, but there is no clear consensus for a name change to Sonia. This is a person who continued to use both gender identities. The current version of MOS:IDENTITY doesn't give a unique answer. (It implies that current pronoun usage overcomes historic pronoun usage, even if the previous identity was the one most commonly used in reliable sources). "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." If the person had given up all usage of the name 'David' we wouldn't be hesitating. EdJohnston ( talk) 15:39, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
David Burgess (lawyer) → Sonia Burgess – The current name (David Burgess) is in blatant disregard to Wikipedia's transgender naming policy ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Gender_identity#Common_name). It is disrespectful to the individual and to the transgender community. It does not matter if this was the name they used in their professional life, just as the changes for celebrities who change their name are made, the changes for Sonia Burgess should also be made. We need some LGBT moderators in this conversation who are more knowledgeable about the subject. Anon523 ( talk) 19:57, 15 September 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
"give precedence to self-designation"(see MOS:IDENTITY). Here, it appears that this individual wanted to be referred to as "Sonia". The first Guardian article, for example, states that Burgess spent more time living as their "female persona" in the years preceding their death. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 22:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I'll remain neutral on this for now because this person hasn't been significantly covered since. I found all I can. --
George Ho (
talk) 00:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
After the trial ended, sources discussing this person became scarce or rare. For now, I'll oppose this because he/she was widely known as "David" (before he became "Sonia", which lasted five years[?] until his death), and sources use Sonia and David concurrently. If Wikipedia were as popular as it is now, a bunch of folks would have chosen "Sonia" and used MOS:IDENTITY for their arguments' sake. George Ho ( talk) 02:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
As you can see I've moved Sonia Burgess's page so that it reflects her gender identity.
I was, I admit, over-hasty. Never having moved a page before, I moved it the exact way you aren't supposed to. (I did eventually figure out how to move it over correctly, though!) On top of that, I see there was already a big discussion that took place about a potential move a few years ago...
But since four years have passed since that last discussion, hopefully the discourse has progressed far enough that gendering a trans woman correctly is less controversial than it was back then. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 10:14, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY directs: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources. If it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." In this case, our subject is identified by reliable sources as David, and the subject used David in a professional context, which is the context in which we cover them. I'm therefore still of the view that David is the correct name to use. If others disagreed, they should start a new WP:RM discussion. Sandstein 12:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Sonia Burgess: there appear to be two in favour of David Burgess on the basis that while they were a lawyer, Burgess identified as male or at least retained their name, three in favour of Murder of David Burgess per WP:BLP1E, zero in favour of Murder of Sonia Burgess, seven in favour of Sonia Burgess strictly per MOS:GENDERID with an additional two supporting it either to remove disambiguation or with the proviso that Burgess is referred to as David Burgess in the parts of the article which pertain to their law career. Therefore, consensus appears to be to move to Sonia Burgess. ( closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
David Burgess (immigration lawyer) →
Sonia Burgess –
MOS:GENDERID says "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources."
The Guardian, despite their terrible use of language, make it clear she was a trans woman known as Sonia Burgess: "Although known as David in his professional life, he was transgendered, and in recent years spent more time in his female persona, Sonia." Wickedterrier ( talk) 12:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 04:48, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Sonia Burgessand
Ms Burgess. They use female pronouns. They use a picture where she is presenting as a female. And this was eight years ago, when the general level of knowledge about transgender issues was a lot lower than it is today.
"Sonia was truly an inspiration and even in death her lesson to love and put others before one's self continues to shine through and will not be forgotten."
I just knew her as someone who was fun to be around: loving, sensitive, aware, in the present moment… a deep thinker, and, of course," Beardsley adds with a chuckle, "very fashionable. She had a very good eye for clothes..."
Many of Sonia's friends found the media interest difficult to stomach, especially because some newspapers used the male pronoun to refer to Burgess in spite of the fact that he had chosen to live as a woman..." Things like that can be very hurtful in the transgender community," says Beardsley.
Give precedence to self-designation. It doesn't add "unless the person in question wasn't out yet to their employer." To me, no reasonable reading of the guideline supports misgendering Sonia Burgess. (And considering how common workplace discrimination towards transgender people is, inferring that she would want be misgendered in an article about her life because she chose not to come out at work is bizarre.)
a 35-year-old N who deliberately pushed a 63-year-old M under a London tube train has been jailed for life. From the [ Guardian] article, N was
undergoing gender reassignment surgery at the time of the attack, with the support and financial help of M, despite worries about N's mental state (paranoid schizophrenia). And the Guardian adds:
M was known as a male lawyer, but away from work M lived almost entirely as a woman and was known to family and friends as such. M was "gender-variant", and did not wish to have surgery. In other words, M, a rich, old, established European pushed N, a poor, largely younger, isolated Sri Lankan to practice over N-self what M was so reluctant to practice on M-self. And now, look at the politically correct version of this story: poor Nina is no more called Nina. She, the victim, is now reduced to the status of a jailed man. On the contrary, he, the rich perpetrator who pushed Nina under the scalpel, is elevated to the status of revered Sonia. It must be noticed that using Sonia Burgess as a flagship for "better be rich and British than poor and Sri Lankan" is rather rude against David Burgess, who was one of the UK's most celebrated immigration lawyers, responsible for landmark judgments in the House of Lords and the European court of human rights. Pldx1 ( talk) 10:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Lawyer Sonia... Burgess, also known by her birth name David, was an immigration solicitor with 40 years’ experience.. This lack of symmetry can be found in all the sources given here, and in the article itself. Moreover, it should be a surprise to see the politically correct campaigners being so silent, here and elsewhere, about this death in prison. (1) A suicide should call questions about how Kanagasingham was supported (2) while
Senthooran Kanagasingham, 37, was ... Paranoid schizophrenic Kanagasingham, also known as Nina, was undergoing gender reassignment treatment
...was found dead, with a plastic bag around his head and his hands tied to the bedstead... should call other questions. Maybe lawyer David Burgess would have been less silent about these circumstances, who knows. Pldx1 ( talk) 10:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Here's another source:
an obituary from Stephen Whittle, a fellow lawyer and a friend: I am shattered by the news of Sonia Burgess's tragic death. Sonia was the human rights lawyer every human rights lawyer respected. Sonia was the lawyer who inspired me to be the lawyer I am today.
... As her funeral service was to show, many, many lawyers and senior judges knew of Sonia's other life by then, and they did not find it a problem.
... Sonia claimed a position as a trans woman, and she was a supreme trans woman.
To say that Burgess was a transgender woman named Sonia is not, to me, an assumption or a guess. This is not something I'd ever advocate guessing about. It's backed up by the sources. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 22:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
this person self-designated as David both legally and professionally"Legally and professionally" translates to "what name she used at work" and "what name is on government documents" Both these things are worth some consideration, but they aren't great metrics to determine how best to refer to Sonia Burgess. Many trans people aren't out at work or don't have their name legally changed. 2.
hearsay in such an obituary is generally not admissible as evidenceThis isn't a trial and Sonia Burgess isn't being accused of a crime, so a different standard of evidence applies. Anyway if you want to talk about what would or wouldn't be acceptable in a courtroom, here's what the prosecutor said during the trial for the person who murdered Burgess:
socially, the deceased lived as a woman and was known by friends and family as Sonia,” said Mr Altman. "I intend to refer to the deceased throughout as of the female gender because that is the wish of her family."
(known professionally as David Burgess). This would be more prominent than a footnote and is phrased in such a way that it doesn't imply that she stopped using the name. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 16:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Note: I've opened a discussion about this over at the manual of style talk page, to see if the guideline can be changed so that it better accounts for this sort of situation. -- Wickedterrier ( talk) 12:13, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Question for those proposing a move to “Murder of David Burgess”. If this individual’s notability stemmed primarily from the practice of law, I can see the reasoning in arguing for the name under which they practiced law. But if the proper scope of the article is the murder of a not-otherwise-notable private individual, why prioritize the professional name over the personal one?-- Trystan ( talk) 13:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
clearer consensus, we should better start by building a consensus about what is the key topic of the article. If the article is about a layer that has decided by himself to go by the David Burgess name, to keep the focus on his accomplishments as a lawyer, then the main name of the article should be David Burgess. If the article is about the King's Cross Tube Murder, i.e. about how and why Sonia Burgess was womanslaughtered by Nina Kanagasingham, and how the newspapers have reported the story, and even how Kanagasingham
...was found dead, [some years later] with a plastic bag around his head and his hands tied to the bedstead, another title could be better. Perhaps: 2010 King's Cross Tube Murder or even The lonely death of Nina Kanagasingham. Pldx1 ( talk) 16:30, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't wish to be ghoulish, but I don't recall ever having seen a Wikipedia article about a crime where the crime itself is not mentioned. "“Disapproving” of the interference, it was alleged that Kanagasingham hatched the plot to kill Mr Burgess as they made their way back to central London from the Cricklewood surgery. As the pair waited for a train at the height of the evening rush hour, Kanagasingham pushed Mr Burgess from the platform, the court heard.". The way that the article read it looked as though an unknown assailant made a random push. This wasn't random, this is a couple where the court accepted evidence of premeditation in conviction. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
As this article and talk page fits in to the discretionary sanctions covering all transgender related articles ("any gender-related dispute or controversy"), as there is a current dispute about the naming and treatment of the deceased subject's gender identity, I have added the {{
ds/talk notice}}
to this talk page.
@ Deacon Vorbis: has blanked this notice diff without discussion.
Thanks -- Fæ ( talk) 16:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
It's worth remembering these discretionary sanctions aren't a new thing. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology#Sexology had
when it was closed on 25 April 2013. Note that this said nothing about controversy. These were rescinded not because arbcom felt they were too broad, but because they felt that the GG discretion sanctions had the same effect [5] Personally I feel a dispute over how to title this article, what to call Burgess in it etc is reasonably a "transgender issue" and these are logically going to come up in an article on a subject who was transgender, however you feel about what the outcome should be. But even if there was confusion on how far this went, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute was closed only a few months later on 16 October 2013 withStandard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all articles pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia).
Again, this was amended when it was pointed out that the early amendment had lead to the confusing situation where a case proscribed a remedy based on another case which was no longer in effect. (As said earlier not because arbcom felt the remedy wasn't needed but because because yet another case covered the same thing and more so it was felt less confusing to consolidate it in one case.) [6] If people think this has something to do with GamerGate they're missing the point. Regardless of the wisdom of arbcom consolidating them, these are disputes and remedies before the Gamergate controversy existed.The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology for (among other things) "all articles dealing with transgender issues" remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the Sexology case, not this one.
P.S. Of course I haven't even mentioned Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions at GGTF#Discretionary sanctions (rescinded) which is yet another case dealing with yet another dispute. This time while not predating the gamergate controversy was opened actually only about 1 month after it blew up and was closed about 3 days after the Gamergate controversy case was opened. I didn't mention it because it has little to do with the issues here IMO except that it's another gender related case. The only reason it came up is because it too was modified as part of the consolidation effort, and this happened in the same series of motions that affected one of the more relevant cases.
Jamacfarlane, please respect Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss. It makes no sense to write "In Rees v. the United Kingdom (1986), Burgess represented Mark Rees, a British man who asked the government to amend his birth certificate to allow him to marry a woman." It makes sense only when you add that Rees was a transman, which the sources make clear. SarahSV (talk) 22:36, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS:IDENTITY#Gender-neutral_language.5BR.5D Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: She fathered her first child). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nirame ( talk • contribs) 19:12, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
Hi. I don't think we can apply the 'latest identification' rule, since MOS:IDENTITY doesn't define how to handle non-binary gender, and as far as I can tell, Burgess' gender was not binary at the time of his death. Therefore, I think we have to follow the 'clarity' prescription from the 'gender-neutral language' section. Looking over the article I can only spot one sentence using a pronoun with Burgess as referent, namely "but continued to use his birth name and gender in his professional life"; since the referents of the noun-phrases ("his birth name and gender", "his professional life") are both associated with his male identification, I would suggest keeping 'his' as used in the current version of the page.
Incidentally, my personal solution to issues like these (which I am using in this talk post but not suggesting applying to the article) is simply to treat 'he' as having a secondary gender-neutral meaning, for which some etymological justification exists.— PT ( talk) 15:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC) |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Most editors offered reasonable arguments, but there is no clear consensus for a name change to Sonia. This is a person who continued to use both gender identities. The current version of MOS:IDENTITY doesn't give a unique answer. (It implies that current pronoun usage overcomes historic pronoun usage, even if the previous identity was the one most commonly used in reliable sources). "give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." If the person had given up all usage of the name 'David' we wouldn't be hesitating. EdJohnston ( talk) 15:39, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
David Burgess (lawyer) → Sonia Burgess – The current name (David Burgess) is in blatant disregard to Wikipedia's transgender naming policy ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Gender_identity#Common_name). It is disrespectful to the individual and to the transgender community. It does not matter if this was the name they used in their professional life, just as the changes for celebrities who change their name are made, the changes for Sonia Burgess should also be made. We need some LGBT moderators in this conversation who are more knowledgeable about the subject. Anon523 ( talk) 19:57, 15 September 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 09:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
"give precedence to self-designation"(see MOS:IDENTITY). Here, it appears that this individual wanted to be referred to as "Sonia". The first Guardian article, for example, states that Burgess spent more time living as their "female persona" in the years preceding their death. -- Notecardforfree ( talk) 22:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I'll remain neutral on this for now because this person hasn't been significantly covered since. I found all I can. --
George Ho (
talk) 00:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
After the trial ended, sources discussing this person became scarce or rare. For now, I'll oppose this because he/she was widely known as "David" (before he became "Sonia", which lasted five years[?] until his death), and sources use Sonia and David concurrently. If Wikipedia were as popular as it is now, a bunch of folks would have chosen "Sonia" and used MOS:IDENTITY for their arguments' sake. George Ho ( talk) 02:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
As you can see I've moved Sonia Burgess's page so that it reflects her gender identity.
I was, I admit, over-hasty. Never having moved a page before, I moved it the exact way you aren't supposed to. (I did eventually figure out how to move it over correctly, though!) On top of that, I see there was already a big discussion that took place about a potential move a few years ago...
But since four years have passed since that last discussion, hopefully the discourse has progressed far enough that gendering a trans woman correctly is less controversial than it was back then. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 10:14, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY directs: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources. If it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." In this case, our subject is identified by reliable sources as David, and the subject used David in a professional context, which is the context in which we cover them. I'm therefore still of the view that David is the correct name to use. If others disagreed, they should start a new WP:RM discussion. Sandstein 12:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Sonia Burgess: there appear to be two in favour of David Burgess on the basis that while they were a lawyer, Burgess identified as male or at least retained their name, three in favour of Murder of David Burgess per WP:BLP1E, zero in favour of Murder of Sonia Burgess, seven in favour of Sonia Burgess strictly per MOS:GENDERID with an additional two supporting it either to remove disambiguation or with the proviso that Burgess is referred to as David Burgess in the parts of the article which pertain to their law career. Therefore, consensus appears to be to move to Sonia Burgess. ( closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
David Burgess (immigration lawyer) →
Sonia Burgess –
MOS:GENDERID says "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources."
The Guardian, despite their terrible use of language, make it clear she was a trans woman known as Sonia Burgess: "Although known as David in his professional life, he was transgendered, and in recent years spent more time in his female persona, Sonia." Wickedterrier ( talk) 12:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 04:48, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Sonia Burgessand
Ms Burgess. They use female pronouns. They use a picture where she is presenting as a female. And this was eight years ago, when the general level of knowledge about transgender issues was a lot lower than it is today.
"Sonia was truly an inspiration and even in death her lesson to love and put others before one's self continues to shine through and will not be forgotten."
I just knew her as someone who was fun to be around: loving, sensitive, aware, in the present moment… a deep thinker, and, of course," Beardsley adds with a chuckle, "very fashionable. She had a very good eye for clothes..."
Many of Sonia's friends found the media interest difficult to stomach, especially because some newspapers used the male pronoun to refer to Burgess in spite of the fact that he had chosen to live as a woman..." Things like that can be very hurtful in the transgender community," says Beardsley.
Give precedence to self-designation. It doesn't add "unless the person in question wasn't out yet to their employer." To me, no reasonable reading of the guideline supports misgendering Sonia Burgess. (And considering how common workplace discrimination towards transgender people is, inferring that she would want be misgendered in an article about her life because she chose not to come out at work is bizarre.)
a 35-year-old N who deliberately pushed a 63-year-old M under a London tube train has been jailed for life. From the [ Guardian] article, N was
undergoing gender reassignment surgery at the time of the attack, with the support and financial help of M, despite worries about N's mental state (paranoid schizophrenia). And the Guardian adds:
M was known as a male lawyer, but away from work M lived almost entirely as a woman and was known to family and friends as such. M was "gender-variant", and did not wish to have surgery. In other words, M, a rich, old, established European pushed N, a poor, largely younger, isolated Sri Lankan to practice over N-self what M was so reluctant to practice on M-self. And now, look at the politically correct version of this story: poor Nina is no more called Nina. She, the victim, is now reduced to the status of a jailed man. On the contrary, he, the rich perpetrator who pushed Nina under the scalpel, is elevated to the status of revered Sonia. It must be noticed that using Sonia Burgess as a flagship for "better be rich and British than poor and Sri Lankan" is rather rude against David Burgess, who was one of the UK's most celebrated immigration lawyers, responsible for landmark judgments in the House of Lords and the European court of human rights. Pldx1 ( talk) 10:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Lawyer Sonia... Burgess, also known by her birth name David, was an immigration solicitor with 40 years’ experience.. This lack of symmetry can be found in all the sources given here, and in the article itself. Moreover, it should be a surprise to see the politically correct campaigners being so silent, here and elsewhere, about this death in prison. (1) A suicide should call questions about how Kanagasingham was supported (2) while
Senthooran Kanagasingham, 37, was ... Paranoid schizophrenic Kanagasingham, also known as Nina, was undergoing gender reassignment treatment
...was found dead, with a plastic bag around his head and his hands tied to the bedstead... should call other questions. Maybe lawyer David Burgess would have been less silent about these circumstances, who knows. Pldx1 ( talk) 10:41, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Here's another source:
an obituary from Stephen Whittle, a fellow lawyer and a friend: I am shattered by the news of Sonia Burgess's tragic death. Sonia was the human rights lawyer every human rights lawyer respected. Sonia was the lawyer who inspired me to be the lawyer I am today.
... As her funeral service was to show, many, many lawyers and senior judges knew of Sonia's other life by then, and they did not find it a problem.
... Sonia claimed a position as a trans woman, and she was a supreme trans woman.
To say that Burgess was a transgender woman named Sonia is not, to me, an assumption or a guess. This is not something I'd ever advocate guessing about. It's backed up by the sources. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 22:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
this person self-designated as David both legally and professionally"Legally and professionally" translates to "what name she used at work" and "what name is on government documents" Both these things are worth some consideration, but they aren't great metrics to determine how best to refer to Sonia Burgess. Many trans people aren't out at work or don't have their name legally changed. 2.
hearsay in such an obituary is generally not admissible as evidenceThis isn't a trial and Sonia Burgess isn't being accused of a crime, so a different standard of evidence applies. Anyway if you want to talk about what would or wouldn't be acceptable in a courtroom, here's what the prosecutor said during the trial for the person who murdered Burgess:
socially, the deceased lived as a woman and was known by friends and family as Sonia,” said Mr Altman. "I intend to refer to the deceased throughout as of the female gender because that is the wish of her family."
(known professionally as David Burgess). This would be more prominent than a footnote and is phrased in such a way that it doesn't imply that she stopped using the name. WanderingWanda (they/them) ( t/ c) 16:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Note: I've opened a discussion about this over at the manual of style talk page, to see if the guideline can be changed so that it better accounts for this sort of situation. -- Wickedterrier ( talk) 12:13, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Question for those proposing a move to “Murder of David Burgess”. If this individual’s notability stemmed primarily from the practice of law, I can see the reasoning in arguing for the name under which they practiced law. But if the proper scope of the article is the murder of a not-otherwise-notable private individual, why prioritize the professional name over the personal one?-- Trystan ( talk) 13:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
clearer consensus, we should better start by building a consensus about what is the key topic of the article. If the article is about a layer that has decided by himself to go by the David Burgess name, to keep the focus on his accomplishments as a lawyer, then the main name of the article should be David Burgess. If the article is about the King's Cross Tube Murder, i.e. about how and why Sonia Burgess was womanslaughtered by Nina Kanagasingham, and how the newspapers have reported the story, and even how Kanagasingham
...was found dead, [some years later] with a plastic bag around his head and his hands tied to the bedstead, another title could be better. Perhaps: 2010 King's Cross Tube Murder or even The lonely death of Nina Kanagasingham. Pldx1 ( talk) 16:30, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't wish to be ghoulish, but I don't recall ever having seen a Wikipedia article about a crime where the crime itself is not mentioned. "“Disapproving” of the interference, it was alleged that Kanagasingham hatched the plot to kill Mr Burgess as they made their way back to central London from the Cricklewood surgery. As the pair waited for a train at the height of the evening rush hour, Kanagasingham pushed Mr Burgess from the platform, the court heard.". The way that the article read it looked as though an unknown assailant made a random push. This wasn't random, this is a couple where the court accepted evidence of premeditation in conviction. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
As this article and talk page fits in to the discretionary sanctions covering all transgender related articles ("any gender-related dispute or controversy"), as there is a current dispute about the naming and treatment of the deceased subject's gender identity, I have added the {{
ds/talk notice}}
to this talk page.
@ Deacon Vorbis: has blanked this notice diff without discussion.
Thanks -- Fæ ( talk) 16:41, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
It's worth remembering these discretionary sanctions aren't a new thing. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology#Sexology had
when it was closed on 25 April 2013. Note that this said nothing about controversy. These were rescinded not because arbcom felt they were too broad, but because they felt that the GG discretion sanctions had the same effect [5] Personally I feel a dispute over how to title this article, what to call Burgess in it etc is reasonably a "transgender issue" and these are logically going to come up in an article on a subject who was transgender, however you feel about what the outcome should be. But even if there was confusion on how far this went, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute was closed only a few months later on 16 October 2013 withStandard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all articles pages dealing with transgender issues and paraphilia classification (e.g., hebephilia).
Again, this was amended when it was pointed out that the early amendment had lead to the confusing situation where a case proscribed a remedy based on another case which was no longer in effect. (As said earlier not because arbcom felt the remedy wasn't needed but because because yet another case covered the same thing and more so it was felt less confusing to consolidate it in one case.) [6] If people think this has something to do with GamerGate they're missing the point. Regardless of the wisdom of arbcom consolidating them, these are disputes and remedies before the Gamergate controversy existed.The standard discretionary sanctions adopted in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology for (among other things) "all articles dealing with transgender issues" remain in force. For the avoidance of doubt, these discretionary sanctions apply to any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender, including but not limited to Chelsea/Bradley Manning. Any sanctions imposed should be logged at the Sexology case, not this one.
P.S. Of course I haven't even mentioned Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions at GGTF#Discretionary sanctions (rescinded) which is yet another case dealing with yet another dispute. This time while not predating the gamergate controversy was opened actually only about 1 month after it blew up and was closed about 3 days after the Gamergate controversy case was opened. I didn't mention it because it has little to do with the issues here IMO except that it's another gender related case. The only reason it came up is because it too was modified as part of the consolidation effort, and this happened in the same series of motions that affected one of the more relevant cases.
Jamacfarlane, please respect Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss. It makes no sense to write "In Rees v. the United Kingdom (1986), Burgess represented Mark Rees, a British man who asked the government to amend his birth certificate to allow him to marry a woman." It makes sense only when you add that Rees was a transman, which the sources make clear. SarahSV (talk) 22:36, 22 March 2021 (UTC)