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Is scientific racism the same as race science, or are they two separate topics?
The current article description calls scientific racism "the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority". But this a rather narrow description that excludes a lot of legitimate scientific inquiry into race, racial differences, etc.—and in fact even seems to imply that any such inquiry is unscientific.
So, should there be a separate Race science article that covers the broader study of race, while this article focuses on the pseudoscience and attempts to support or justify racism/racial superiority? Or, alternatively, should the scope of the current article be broadened to include the legitimate science that has been done in this area? Stonkaments ( talk) 18:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, can anyone tell me, how come this page is tagged under 'alternative medicine'? Alright, it is not western medicine, granted. But does scientific racism tries to solve or cure any health problems? According to any knowledge, belief or healing tradition? What are the healing practices of 'scientific racism' for back pain, for example? I guess, I am clear as to what I am trying to say, that there is a drastic difference, I see it this way, between alternative medicine and the topic of this article. Rather, the political investment behind scientific racism, to defend white supremacy throughout the 20th century western world, is quite evident. It has rather aided suppressing many cultures' own sense of sovereignty and thereby extirpating innumerable alternative medicinal practices. If any, its connection to diseases was actually in causing social and psychological problems, instead of doing away with any health issues, whatsoever. Any thoughts? Who can change such misleading tagging? 'preciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mt.malty ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but it is no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. Modern scientific consensus rejects this view as being irreconcilable with modern genetic research.[5]:360
This part should be reworked, as while some beliefs under the umbrella of scientific racism, such as phrenology are justly discarded by scientists, others still hold weight within the scientific community (as evidenced by this meta study for exemple https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf ).
This introduction give therefore a biased view on the subject.
Proposition :
> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is a set of scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but some part of it are no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:647D:1300:DD02:B471:AF49:7E7B ( talk) 06:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Seoul1989's removal of the map, though not exactly for the reason given. Arguably it gives WP:UNDUE attention to Lynn. On the other hand, it does visually show the racial nature of Lynn's pseudoscience. If other editors want to keep it, it needs a caption that clearly identifies it as fringe pseudoscience and points out that Lynn's disparagement of Africa has been criticized for racial bias. The current caption only says that it has been criticized on methodological grounds. NightHeron ( talk) 12:50, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
The following quote by Thomas Jefferson should be removed from this page as it is not an example of scientific racism. It is not an example of scientific racism as the author makes it clear it is only speculating and not an attempt to be scientific in any way.
They seem to require less sleep. A black, after hard labor through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them. In general, their existence appears to participate more of sensation than reflection... Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one [black] could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous... I advance it therefore as a suspicion only[emphasis added], that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind.[51]
Because Jefferson is clear that this is only a "suspicion" and not a scientific finding, it is not an example of scientific racism and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.204.186.2 ( talk) 20:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
forgivable as ignorance. Notes was meant as a scientific (geography / politics / economy) book, so the quote is a good example of scientific racism. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 17:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
OP is correct. This is not scientific racism. It's just racism. Laodah 00:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Bernasconi, Robert. "Who invented the concept of race?." Theories of race and racism. Routledge, 2020. 83-103. This article nominates Kant as the originator of the "scientific" concept of race. Of course, concept of race had existed long before, but Kant was the first to provide it with a (pseudo)scientific basis, which legitimized its use broadly. Phrenology was also invented on this basis.
Quotes from the following article provide the data which supports this claim: Eze, Emmanuel Chukwudi. "The Color of Reason: The Idea of" Race" in Kant's Anthropology." The Bucknell Review 38.2 (1995): 200.
QUOTE: It was Kant, in fact, who introduced anthropology as a branch of study to the German universities when he first started his lectures in the winter semester of 1772-3.4 He was also the first to introduce the stuqy of geography, which he considered inseparable from anthropology, to Konigsberg University, beginning from the summer semester of 1756.5 Throughout his career at the university, Kant offered 72 courses in "Anthropology" and/or "Physical Geography," more than in logic (54 times), metaphysics (49 times), moral philosophy (28), and theoretical physics {20 times).6 Although the volume Anthropologyfrom a Pragmatic Point of View was the last book edited by Kant and was published toward the end of his life, the material actually chronologi- 'cally predates the Critiques. Further, it is known that material from Kant's courses in "Anthropology" and "Physical Geography" found their way into his lectures in ethics and metaphysics.
QUOTE: In Kant's table of moral classifications, while the Americans are completely uneducable because they lack "affect and passion," the Africans escape such a malheur, but can only be "trained" as slaves and servants: The race of the American cannot be educated. It has no motivating force, for it lacks affect and passion. They are not in love, thus they are also not afraid. They hardly speak, do not caress each other, care about nothing and are lazy.71 However, . The race of the Negroes, one could say, is completely the opposite of the Americans; they are full ofaffect and passion, very lively, talkative and vain. They can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained. They have many motivating forces, are also sensitive, are afraid ofblows and do much out of a sense of honor.
Finally, some really powerful quotes from: Henderson, Errol A. "Hidden in plain sight: racism in international relations theory." Cambridge Review of International Affairs 26.1 (2013): 71-92.
QUOTE: The embarrassing fact for the white West (which doubtless explains its concealment) is that their most important moral theorist of the past three hundred years is also the foundational theorist in the modern period of the division between Herrenvolk and Untermenschen, persons and subpersons, upon which Nazi theory would later draw (making the Holocaust possible). Modern moral theory and modern racial theory have the same father’ QUOTE: According to Kant, ‘the Negroes of Africa have by nature no feeling that rises above the trifling’. They are incapable of achieving the level of rationality required of moral agents. Negroes ‘can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained’. Kant “advises us to use a split bamboo cane instead of a whip, so that the ‘negro’ will suffer a great deal of pains (because of the ‘negro’s’ thick skin, he would not be racked with sufficient agonies through a whip) but without dying.” To beat “the Negro” efficiently therefore requires “a cane but it has to be a split one, so that the cane will cause wounds large enough that prevent suppuration underneath the ‘negro’s’ thick skin”.
Because of the enormous influence of Kant, his views on a scientific basis for race were widely adopted --- with results that are visible to this day Asaduzaman ( talk) 12:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a request for comment on whether the hypothesis that there is a genetic link between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. If you are interested, please participate at WP:RSN § RFC on sourcing in relation to race and intelligence. NightHeron ( talk) 12:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Personal opinions of somebody who thinks that breitbart.com is a reliable source |
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Racism more often than not describes an action or behavior pattern. Scientific cannot syntactically define a belief since science is a means toward truth, not the end where truth is found. With the word pseudoscience the article seems to claim immoral science is fake and science can only serve benevolent outcomes. 2600:1700:8B85:110:E7A:CA9:B04E:407A ( talk) 11:12, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
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An RfC at Talk:Race and intelligence revisits the question, considered last year at WP:FTN, of whether or not the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. This RfC supercedes the RfC on this topic at WP:RSN that was closed as improperly formulated.
Your participation is welcome. Thank you. NightHeron ( talk) 20:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
"Race norming is the practice of converting individual test scores to percentile or standard scores within one’s racial group. In the process of race norming, an individual’s percentile score is not calculated in reference to all persons who took the test; instead, an individual’s percentile score is determined only in reference to others in the same racial group. After norming scores by percentile in separate racial groups, the lists are combined to make selection decisions. By norming within racial groups, the same raw score for whites and blacks can be converted to different percentile scores based on the distribution of scores for each racial group."
Which may sound like a form of affirmative action but-
In recent news the above was used by the NFL to deny black player's health benefits. "In simple terms, the test starts black people off at a lower cognitive rate, which means that their neurological tests have to show significantly more decline than whites to reach benchmarks that allow them to get paid."
https://deadspin.com/for-the-nfl-racism-is-all-a-part-of-an-economic-strate-1846937504
Seems like this material belongs on the page somewhere. 2601:46:C801:B1F0:DC42:DBDE:9306:BD1B ( talk) 02:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
The article is written properly in a neutral voice, and is easy to follow. I was impressed by the outsourcing the author did, and the references made to works and papers. Perhaps some portions could be more concise, but this is not a huge issue. Overall, no major changes need to be made, only small details to look out for. SageSab ( talk) 02:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Your participation is welcome in the discussion at Talk:The Bell Curve#Merger proposal concerning merging the article Cognitive elite into The Bell Curve. NightHeron ( talk) 22:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Scientific racism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the External Links section, please add a link to the "Eugenics and Scientific Racism Fact Sheet" ( https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Eugenics-and-Scientific-Racism) developed by the National Human Genome Research Institute. This fact sheet was published on November 3, 2021. Alwayskul ( talk) 13:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
I think this sentence should be removed: "Until the 18th century, the words 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable." It will be interpreted as implying that the modern concepts of 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable--i.e., that people before the 18th century treated different races as different species. Beyond this false or exaggerated implication, I'm not sure what the sentence adds. 128.12.88.50 ( talk) 17:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
WP:SOCK drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 01:49, 27 January 2022 (UTC) |
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Why was that section removed? Fq90 ( talk) 13:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
From our previous discussion it looked like the editors of the other page thought this page would be a more appropriate forum for that material. Fq90 ( talk) 14:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: I have gone through this article but found very little overlap with the section I proposed. @ Grayfell: What do you mean "uneven in weight"?, all the content was true information though, if you think there are more relevant facts around that would make the section more balanced you are welcome to add them. The title was "Issues pertaining to academic freedom and freedom of inquiry". Would you not agree that is an important area of discussion regarding this issue? Fq90 ( talk) 01:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC) |
"The war crimes and crimes against humanity of Nazi Germany (1933–45) discredited scientific racism in academia." seems an enormously grandiose (and vague) statement to make with no source material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.62.3 ( talk) 21:53, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Is there reason to be believe we are too immature about genetic research? Yes, there is.
First: It has been said that the fruit fly contains ~96% of the DNA as a white man; thus, the black race is the same as the white. However, we don't have Civil Rights for fruit flies, and thank god we don't, or we would all be Buddhist monks. What is wrong with conventional thinking?
Second: Since the DNA project fell into private hands over 20 years ago, not a single disease has been cured. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Milner ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
The Australian government treated the Australian Aborigines inhumanely and committed serious human rights violation against this group
Scientific Racism Social Darwinism Eugenics Impact of colonialism on Aborigines Immigration policies Stolen Generation Assimilation progammes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.245.122.124 ( talk) 12:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
This article desperately needs sources about Boulainvilliers. I am not nearly expert enough to do so, sadly, as this is on the fringes of my expertise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:8687:8C00:7156:8017:3F27:8668 ( talk) 20:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry if these discussions have been done already but I wonder :
1. If james watson should be included in the article as well, as he's had a lot of comments on the relation between genetics and races. He's a pretty important scientific so I figure he should be at least mentioned in the article. But on the other hand he went so awry, and I don't think he's fair to consider him a scientific when it comes to his ideas about DNA and races. Maybe it's like mentioning Pauling on an article about vitamin C megadosage (but actuallin Pauling is mentioned on said article, anyway...).
2. If the title could be improved. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is really misleading.
Alexisbu ( talk) 12:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
In 2022 The Chronicle of Higher Education reported on a researcher at Cleveland State University whose "home institution was essentially providing a soapbox for racist pseudoscience.... Despite nearly a dozen publications over more than a decade arguing for the intellectual inferiority of Black people," the professor was judged to have meritorious research and was promoted and given tenure. In 2022 he was fired following an investigation by the National Institutes of Health that found that he had violated regulations concerning the handling of medical data. The article states that he had some influence on "public misperceptions of race" as a result of heavy editing of an early version of Wikipedia's article on race and intelligence. [1]
Note the related discussion at WP:AN#A question about outing policy. NightHeron ( talk) 11:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
References
The Christian Bible was interpreted to sanction slavery and from the 1820s to the 1850s was often used in the antebellum Southern United States, by writers such as the Rev. Richard Furman and Thomas R. Cobb, to enforce the idea that Negroes had been created inferior, and thus suited to slavery.[61]
1. This isn't related to science. The source backs it up. But the source doesn't speak of science here. But if you read the source further, it does actually deal with "christianity+science" here instead
There was a growing movement in America shortly before the Civil War, as pressure against slavery was increasing, to justify slavery not just with scripture [edit: this refers to 1820-1850], but also with so-called "science". At this time, however, most biologists, known then as naturalists, were theologically trained. Biology was still considered to be a Biblically based study of "the creation" before Darwin came along.
This doesn't say 1820-1850 (it explicitly says that was only with regards to scripture!). I believe this should be understood as 1850-1860. By the way, this is just my insight, literal reading among intellectuals of the Bible was dropped long ago at this point in time - so far as science was produced by interpretting the bible at this point in time, it would have been considered fringe (due to standards that arose in the Enlightment Age). If you read /info/en/?search=History_of_biology there is no mention of the bible. 2. The source is also questionable and fails WP:RSSELF anyway, appears to be advocacy material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.237.80.141 ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Yo, I'm the same person, by the way, back in days the paragraph looked like this: [...] Unilinealism depicting a progression from primitive human societies to industrialised civilisation became popular amongst philosophers including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant and Auguste Comte, and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. In contrast, polygenist theory alleged that there were different origins of mankind, thus making it possible to conceive of different, biological, human races, or to classify other humans as akin to animals without rights. Early scientific racist theories such as Arthur Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-1855) were mostly decadent in that they did not believe in the possibility of "improvement of the race." The text marked with fat was removed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientific_racism&diff=prev&oldid=180954538 . Later a year after and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. was removed as well here /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/98.214.100.36 . So the entire paragraph was kinda washed from any information that could put christianity in a positive light and replaced with information that could put christianity in a negative light. So it clearly appears like there is some anti-christianity advocacy going on here, especially because the new passage at the end of the paragraph has no ground (nor relevance). I have no idea whether it's worth to insert the christianity-friendly information back. My opinion is that we should have in mind that this is about scientific racism, not religious (anti)racism (otherwise we could go on talking about the christian abolitionism in the Roman Empire, etc.). The paragraph should definitely be fixed. 130.225.188.131 ( talk) 19:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Speaking of, this review of Peschel provides an excellent summary of the intellectual problems involved in this endeavor:
the mistake of course being that he should've been more open to the possibilities of those long-term studies and careful measurements finding no meaningful differences after adjusting for childhood nutrition, stimulation during early development, &c. and the concept of a "pure or typical race" being either a null set or a game of no true Scotsman. In any case, it could be used for sourcing here and in other articles that some people at the time realized most of the problems that seem so clear to us while still not quite being able to get through to the other side, generally except in religious contexts. — LlywelynII 04:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Obviously, as France's tilting against le wokisme likes to highlight, this field of study is—like English Wiki itself—dominated by Anglos prone to particularly intense sessions of naval gazing. That doesn't mean that we should allow the main articles—by WP:UNDUE focus or omission—to act like this was a US/UK joint project with French accompaniment that barely involved the rest of the world. Pseudoscientific racial essentialism is as old as civilization and has had proponents from the Greeks to the Indians to the Sinosphere. It didn't magically pop out of the British and French Enlightenment's head like a misbegotten Athena. It also wasn't principally (let alone solely) developed within French, English, and American sources.
People have put a lot of work into this but, when important figures like Oscar Peschel go entirely omitted but early modern Scottish jurists show up essentially just for repeating a belief in Genesis, there's still more work to be done. (More contentious, but I do think that a short paragraph is necessary ahead of the Enlightenment going through the general tendency of premodern religious cosmologies—which science initially tries to quantify and help prove—towards racial essentialism and hierarchies with links to the more important examples like the Brahmin caste and the 'division of the world' by the children of Noah in Genesis). — LlywelynII 00:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
"The Enlightenment is commonly held accountable for the rise of both racial classification and modern scientific racism."But this is essentially the "History of X" equivalent stuff ready to be hived off later. Iskandar323 ( talk) 05:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Imagine that you are a young child reading this article. It is the first time you read about racism, and you click on this article. There is nothing scientific about scientific racism. The better title would be pseudoscientific racism. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is not only wrong, but perpetuates the idea that somehow the illegal practice of racism can be scientific, and thus it takes on the prestige and validity that stems from scientific knowledge and inquiry. DTMGO ( talk) 19:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence from "Racial theories in physical anthropology (1850–1918)":
"The proposal that social status is unilineal—from primitive to civilized, from agricultural to industrial—became popular among philosophers, including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant, and Auguste Comte."
It is not supported by the source given at the end of the paragraph, which mentions only Kant—and very much just in passing. (Also, the phrase "social status is unilineal" does not make sense to me.)
The fact that the figures are out of chronological order, Hegel is named "Friedrich Hegel" (as no one in his life or in the scholarship refers to him), and Comte is lumped together with two German Idealists strongly indicate that the author of this claim had little idea what he was talking about.
If someone wants to add something about Kant, however, there are multiple sources to be found at Immanuel_Kant#Racism.
I do not think that Hegel fits into the category of scientific racism since race, on his account, is determined by climate and geography and is hence malleable. But I could be wrong. See Georg_Wilhelm_Friedrich_Hegel#Subjective_spirit for a few sources.
I've not studied Comte, but, as with Kant, if he is to be included this should be sourced and, most probably, discussed independently, given the many differences between his project and that of Kant (and Hegel).
Best, Patrick J. Welsh ( talk) 22:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
This article seems homogeneously negative, but it doesn't need to be. I have two specific suggestions to address the negativity:
As it stands, this article promotes negativity and cynicism for science that degrades all of scholarship in a wholesale fashion. This feeds popular cynicism about scholarship and truth that negatively impacts egalitarian society.
Regarding historical context: This page enumerates a huge collection of scholars that contribute to the perpetuation of racist beliefs. Given that that practically all relevant scholarship was racist through the end of the 18th century, tagging such scholarship as 'racism' is not always a meaningful distinction. It risks unfairly condemning some who were mere participants in the primitive state of period science. While this may be unavoidable, to a degree, readers would benefit from a disclaimer regarding said risk. Maintainers of this material should also seek to understand and clarify between dishonest manipulation of science, in contrast to science that was racist because it built from a context laced with racist components, but without deliberate scientific dishonesty. It should establish a clear standard for whether it assumes scientists act in good faith, and if so how it determines that evidence of bad faith is sufficient for documentation here. Casual references to historic scholars without robust evidence of bad faith is particularly unfair and unfortunate, given such scholars have no ability to defend their reputation.
Towards constructing the positive narrative, it seems there are a set of scholars who are easily identified as advancing the foundation of non-racist science and scholarship. In particular, I would document
I am sure there are many more scientists, some who may have held racist beliefs, but who were critical in enabling science to escape from a primitive, ignorant, racist state and enable the possibility of egalitarian science that modern society properly deserves and demands. If the community supporting this page is supportive I would be happy to help get things started, but I am a computer scientist by training and definitely not enough of a historian to own this project.
Separately, this article would also benefit from a discussion of the history of the term "scientific racism": when it was introduced as a concept, by whom, to what ends, and how it has impacted scholarship.
JBradleyChen ( talk) 18:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
how did pseudo scientic theories influence policies in South Africa 102.249.3.204 ( talk) 20:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Is scientific racism the same as race science, or are they two separate topics?
The current article description calls scientific racism "the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority". But this a rather narrow description that excludes a lot of legitimate scientific inquiry into race, racial differences, etc.—and in fact even seems to imply that any such inquiry is unscientific.
So, should there be a separate Race science article that covers the broader study of race, while this article focuses on the pseudoscience and attempts to support or justify racism/racial superiority? Or, alternatively, should the scope of the current article be broadened to include the legitimate science that has been done in this area? Stonkaments ( talk) 18:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, can anyone tell me, how come this page is tagged under 'alternative medicine'? Alright, it is not western medicine, granted. But does scientific racism tries to solve or cure any health problems? According to any knowledge, belief or healing tradition? What are the healing practices of 'scientific racism' for back pain, for example? I guess, I am clear as to what I am trying to say, that there is a drastic difference, I see it this way, between alternative medicine and the topic of this article. Rather, the political investment behind scientific racism, to defend white supremacy throughout the 20th century western world, is quite evident. It has rather aided suppressing many cultures' own sense of sovereignty and thereby extirpating innumerable alternative medicinal practices. If any, its connection to diseases was actually in causing social and psychological problems, instead of doing away with any health issues, whatsoever. Any thoughts? Who can change such misleading tagging? 'preciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mt.malty ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but it is no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. Modern scientific consensus rejects this view as being irreconcilable with modern genetic research.[5]:360
This part should be reworked, as while some beliefs under the umbrella of scientific racism, such as phrenology are justly discarded by scientists, others still hold weight within the scientific community (as evidenced by this meta study for exemple https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf ).
This introduction give therefore a biased view on the subject.
Proposition :
> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is a set of scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but some part of it are no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:647D:1300:DD02:B471:AF49:7E7B ( talk) 06:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Seoul1989's removal of the map, though not exactly for the reason given. Arguably it gives WP:UNDUE attention to Lynn. On the other hand, it does visually show the racial nature of Lynn's pseudoscience. If other editors want to keep it, it needs a caption that clearly identifies it as fringe pseudoscience and points out that Lynn's disparagement of Africa has been criticized for racial bias. The current caption only says that it has been criticized on methodological grounds. NightHeron ( talk) 12:50, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
The following quote by Thomas Jefferson should be removed from this page as it is not an example of scientific racism. It is not an example of scientific racism as the author makes it clear it is only speculating and not an attempt to be scientific in any way.
They seem to require less sleep. A black, after hard labor through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them. In general, their existence appears to participate more of sensation than reflection... Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one [black] could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous... I advance it therefore as a suspicion only[emphasis added], that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind.[51]
Because Jefferson is clear that this is only a "suspicion" and not a scientific finding, it is not an example of scientific racism and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.204.186.2 ( talk) 20:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
forgivable as ignorance. Notes was meant as a scientific (geography / politics / economy) book, so the quote is a good example of scientific racism. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 17:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
OP is correct. This is not scientific racism. It's just racism. Laodah 00:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Bernasconi, Robert. "Who invented the concept of race?." Theories of race and racism. Routledge, 2020. 83-103. This article nominates Kant as the originator of the "scientific" concept of race. Of course, concept of race had existed long before, but Kant was the first to provide it with a (pseudo)scientific basis, which legitimized its use broadly. Phrenology was also invented on this basis.
Quotes from the following article provide the data which supports this claim: Eze, Emmanuel Chukwudi. "The Color of Reason: The Idea of" Race" in Kant's Anthropology." The Bucknell Review 38.2 (1995): 200.
QUOTE: It was Kant, in fact, who introduced anthropology as a branch of study to the German universities when he first started his lectures in the winter semester of 1772-3.4 He was also the first to introduce the stuqy of geography, which he considered inseparable from anthropology, to Konigsberg University, beginning from the summer semester of 1756.5 Throughout his career at the university, Kant offered 72 courses in "Anthropology" and/or "Physical Geography," more than in logic (54 times), metaphysics (49 times), moral philosophy (28), and theoretical physics {20 times).6 Although the volume Anthropologyfrom a Pragmatic Point of View was the last book edited by Kant and was published toward the end of his life, the material actually chronologi- 'cally predates the Critiques. Further, it is known that material from Kant's courses in "Anthropology" and "Physical Geography" found their way into his lectures in ethics and metaphysics.
QUOTE: In Kant's table of moral classifications, while the Americans are completely uneducable because they lack "affect and passion," the Africans escape such a malheur, but can only be "trained" as slaves and servants: The race of the American cannot be educated. It has no motivating force, for it lacks affect and passion. They are not in love, thus they are also not afraid. They hardly speak, do not caress each other, care about nothing and are lazy.71 However, . The race of the Negroes, one could say, is completely the opposite of the Americans; they are full ofaffect and passion, very lively, talkative and vain. They can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained. They have many motivating forces, are also sensitive, are afraid ofblows and do much out of a sense of honor.
Finally, some really powerful quotes from: Henderson, Errol A. "Hidden in plain sight: racism in international relations theory." Cambridge Review of International Affairs 26.1 (2013): 71-92.
QUOTE: The embarrassing fact for the white West (which doubtless explains its concealment) is that their most important moral theorist of the past three hundred years is also the foundational theorist in the modern period of the division between Herrenvolk and Untermenschen, persons and subpersons, upon which Nazi theory would later draw (making the Holocaust possible). Modern moral theory and modern racial theory have the same father’ QUOTE: According to Kant, ‘the Negroes of Africa have by nature no feeling that rises above the trifling’. They are incapable of achieving the level of rationality required of moral agents. Negroes ‘can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained’. Kant “advises us to use a split bamboo cane instead of a whip, so that the ‘negro’ will suffer a great deal of pains (because of the ‘negro’s’ thick skin, he would not be racked with sufficient agonies through a whip) but without dying.” To beat “the Negro” efficiently therefore requires “a cane but it has to be a split one, so that the cane will cause wounds large enough that prevent suppuration underneath the ‘negro’s’ thick skin”.
Because of the enormous influence of Kant, his views on a scientific basis for race were widely adopted --- with results that are visible to this day Asaduzaman ( talk) 12:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a request for comment on whether the hypothesis that there is a genetic link between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. If you are interested, please participate at WP:RSN § RFC on sourcing in relation to race and intelligence. NightHeron ( talk) 12:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Personal opinions of somebody who thinks that breitbart.com is a reliable source |
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Racism more often than not describes an action or behavior pattern. Scientific cannot syntactically define a belief since science is a means toward truth, not the end where truth is found. With the word pseudoscience the article seems to claim immoral science is fake and science can only serve benevolent outcomes. 2600:1700:8B85:110:E7A:CA9:B04E:407A ( talk) 11:12, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
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An RfC at Talk:Race and intelligence revisits the question, considered last year at WP:FTN, of whether or not the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. This RfC supercedes the RfC on this topic at WP:RSN that was closed as improperly formulated.
Your participation is welcome. Thank you. NightHeron ( talk) 20:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
"Race norming is the practice of converting individual test scores to percentile or standard scores within one’s racial group. In the process of race norming, an individual’s percentile score is not calculated in reference to all persons who took the test; instead, an individual’s percentile score is determined only in reference to others in the same racial group. After norming scores by percentile in separate racial groups, the lists are combined to make selection decisions. By norming within racial groups, the same raw score for whites and blacks can be converted to different percentile scores based on the distribution of scores for each racial group."
Which may sound like a form of affirmative action but-
In recent news the above was used by the NFL to deny black player's health benefits. "In simple terms, the test starts black people off at a lower cognitive rate, which means that their neurological tests have to show significantly more decline than whites to reach benchmarks that allow them to get paid."
https://deadspin.com/for-the-nfl-racism-is-all-a-part-of-an-economic-strate-1846937504
Seems like this material belongs on the page somewhere. 2601:46:C801:B1F0:DC42:DBDE:9306:BD1B ( talk) 02:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
The article is written properly in a neutral voice, and is easy to follow. I was impressed by the outsourcing the author did, and the references made to works and papers. Perhaps some portions could be more concise, but this is not a huge issue. Overall, no major changes need to be made, only small details to look out for. SageSab ( talk) 02:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Your participation is welcome in the discussion at Talk:The Bell Curve#Merger proposal concerning merging the article Cognitive elite into The Bell Curve. NightHeron ( talk) 22:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
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Under the External Links section, please add a link to the "Eugenics and Scientific Racism Fact Sheet" ( https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Eugenics-and-Scientific-Racism) developed by the National Human Genome Research Institute. This fact sheet was published on November 3, 2021. Alwayskul ( talk) 13:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
I think this sentence should be removed: "Until the 18th century, the words 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable." It will be interpreted as implying that the modern concepts of 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable--i.e., that people before the 18th century treated different races as different species. Beyond this false or exaggerated implication, I'm not sure what the sentence adds. 128.12.88.50 ( talk) 17:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
WP:SOCK drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 01:49, 27 January 2022 (UTC) |
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Why was that section removed? Fq90 ( talk) 13:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
From our previous discussion it looked like the editors of the other page thought this page would be a more appropriate forum for that material. Fq90 ( talk) 14:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
@ MrOllie: I have gone through this article but found very little overlap with the section I proposed. @ Grayfell: What do you mean "uneven in weight"?, all the content was true information though, if you think there are more relevant facts around that would make the section more balanced you are welcome to add them. The title was "Issues pertaining to academic freedom and freedom of inquiry". Would you not agree that is an important area of discussion regarding this issue? Fq90 ( talk) 01:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC) |
"The war crimes and crimes against humanity of Nazi Germany (1933–45) discredited scientific racism in academia." seems an enormously grandiose (and vague) statement to make with no source material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.62.3 ( talk) 21:53, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Is there reason to be believe we are too immature about genetic research? Yes, there is.
First: It has been said that the fruit fly contains ~96% of the DNA as a white man; thus, the black race is the same as the white. However, we don't have Civil Rights for fruit flies, and thank god we don't, or we would all be Buddhist monks. What is wrong with conventional thinking?
Second: Since the DNA project fell into private hands over 20 years ago, not a single disease has been cured. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Milner ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
The Australian government treated the Australian Aborigines inhumanely and committed serious human rights violation against this group
Scientific Racism Social Darwinism Eugenics Impact of colonialism on Aborigines Immigration policies Stolen Generation Assimilation progammes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.245.122.124 ( talk) 12:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
This article desperately needs sources about Boulainvilliers. I am not nearly expert enough to do so, sadly, as this is on the fringes of my expertise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:8687:8C00:7156:8017:3F27:8668 ( talk) 20:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry if these discussions have been done already but I wonder :
1. If james watson should be included in the article as well, as he's had a lot of comments on the relation between genetics and races. He's a pretty important scientific so I figure he should be at least mentioned in the article. But on the other hand he went so awry, and I don't think he's fair to consider him a scientific when it comes to his ideas about DNA and races. Maybe it's like mentioning Pauling on an article about vitamin C megadosage (but actuallin Pauling is mentioned on said article, anyway...).
2. If the title could be improved. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is really misleading.
Alexisbu ( talk) 12:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
In 2022 The Chronicle of Higher Education reported on a researcher at Cleveland State University whose "home institution was essentially providing a soapbox for racist pseudoscience.... Despite nearly a dozen publications over more than a decade arguing for the intellectual inferiority of Black people," the professor was judged to have meritorious research and was promoted and given tenure. In 2022 he was fired following an investigation by the National Institutes of Health that found that he had violated regulations concerning the handling of medical data. The article states that he had some influence on "public misperceptions of race" as a result of heavy editing of an early version of Wikipedia's article on race and intelligence. [1]
Note the related discussion at WP:AN#A question about outing policy. NightHeron ( talk) 11:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
References
The Christian Bible was interpreted to sanction slavery and from the 1820s to the 1850s was often used in the antebellum Southern United States, by writers such as the Rev. Richard Furman and Thomas R. Cobb, to enforce the idea that Negroes had been created inferior, and thus suited to slavery.[61]
1. This isn't related to science. The source backs it up. But the source doesn't speak of science here. But if you read the source further, it does actually deal with "christianity+science" here instead
There was a growing movement in America shortly before the Civil War, as pressure against slavery was increasing, to justify slavery not just with scripture [edit: this refers to 1820-1850], but also with so-called "science". At this time, however, most biologists, known then as naturalists, were theologically trained. Biology was still considered to be a Biblically based study of "the creation" before Darwin came along.
This doesn't say 1820-1850 (it explicitly says that was only with regards to scripture!). I believe this should be understood as 1850-1860. By the way, this is just my insight, literal reading among intellectuals of the Bible was dropped long ago at this point in time - so far as science was produced by interpretting the bible at this point in time, it would have been considered fringe (due to standards that arose in the Enlightment Age). If you read /info/en/?search=History_of_biology there is no mention of the bible. 2. The source is also questionable and fails WP:RSSELF anyway, appears to be advocacy material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.237.80.141 ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Yo, I'm the same person, by the way, back in days the paragraph looked like this: [...] Unilinealism depicting a progression from primitive human societies to industrialised civilisation became popular amongst philosophers including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant and Auguste Comte, and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. In contrast, polygenist theory alleged that there were different origins of mankind, thus making it possible to conceive of different, biological, human races, or to classify other humans as akin to animals without rights. Early scientific racist theories such as Arthur Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-1855) were mostly decadent in that they did not believe in the possibility of "improvement of the race." The text marked with fat was removed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Scientific_racism&diff=prev&oldid=180954538 . Later a year after and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. was removed as well here /info/en/?search=Special:Contributions/98.214.100.36 . So the entire paragraph was kinda washed from any information that could put christianity in a positive light and replaced with information that could put christianity in a negative light. So it clearly appears like there is some anti-christianity advocacy going on here, especially because the new passage at the end of the paragraph has no ground (nor relevance). I have no idea whether it's worth to insert the christianity-friendly information back. My opinion is that we should have in mind that this is about scientific racism, not religious (anti)racism (otherwise we could go on talking about the christian abolitionism in the Roman Empire, etc.). The paragraph should definitely be fixed. 130.225.188.131 ( talk) 19:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Speaking of, this review of Peschel provides an excellent summary of the intellectual problems involved in this endeavor:
the mistake of course being that he should've been more open to the possibilities of those long-term studies and careful measurements finding no meaningful differences after adjusting for childhood nutrition, stimulation during early development, &c. and the concept of a "pure or typical race" being either a null set or a game of no true Scotsman. In any case, it could be used for sourcing here and in other articles that some people at the time realized most of the problems that seem so clear to us while still not quite being able to get through to the other side, generally except in religious contexts. — LlywelynII 04:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Obviously, as France's tilting against le wokisme likes to highlight, this field of study is—like English Wiki itself—dominated by Anglos prone to particularly intense sessions of naval gazing. That doesn't mean that we should allow the main articles—by WP:UNDUE focus or omission—to act like this was a US/UK joint project with French accompaniment that barely involved the rest of the world. Pseudoscientific racial essentialism is as old as civilization and has had proponents from the Greeks to the Indians to the Sinosphere. It didn't magically pop out of the British and French Enlightenment's head like a misbegotten Athena. It also wasn't principally (let alone solely) developed within French, English, and American sources.
People have put a lot of work into this but, when important figures like Oscar Peschel go entirely omitted but early modern Scottish jurists show up essentially just for repeating a belief in Genesis, there's still more work to be done. (More contentious, but I do think that a short paragraph is necessary ahead of the Enlightenment going through the general tendency of premodern religious cosmologies—which science initially tries to quantify and help prove—towards racial essentialism and hierarchies with links to the more important examples like the Brahmin caste and the 'division of the world' by the children of Noah in Genesis). — LlywelynII 00:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
"The Enlightenment is commonly held accountable for the rise of both racial classification and modern scientific racism."But this is essentially the "History of X" equivalent stuff ready to be hived off later. Iskandar323 ( talk) 05:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
Imagine that you are a young child reading this article. It is the first time you read about racism, and you click on this article. There is nothing scientific about scientific racism. The better title would be pseudoscientific racism. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is not only wrong, but perpetuates the idea that somehow the illegal practice of racism can be scientific, and thus it takes on the prestige and validity that stems from scientific knowledge and inquiry. DTMGO ( talk) 19:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence from "Racial theories in physical anthropology (1850–1918)":
"The proposal that social status is unilineal—from primitive to civilized, from agricultural to industrial—became popular among philosophers, including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant, and Auguste Comte."
It is not supported by the source given at the end of the paragraph, which mentions only Kant—and very much just in passing. (Also, the phrase "social status is unilineal" does not make sense to me.)
The fact that the figures are out of chronological order, Hegel is named "Friedrich Hegel" (as no one in his life or in the scholarship refers to him), and Comte is lumped together with two German Idealists strongly indicate that the author of this claim had little idea what he was talking about.
If someone wants to add something about Kant, however, there are multiple sources to be found at Immanuel_Kant#Racism.
I do not think that Hegel fits into the category of scientific racism since race, on his account, is determined by climate and geography and is hence malleable. But I could be wrong. See Georg_Wilhelm_Friedrich_Hegel#Subjective_spirit for a few sources.
I've not studied Comte, but, as with Kant, if he is to be included this should be sourced and, most probably, discussed independently, given the many differences between his project and that of Kant (and Hegel).
Best, Patrick J. Welsh ( talk) 22:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
This article seems homogeneously negative, but it doesn't need to be. I have two specific suggestions to address the negativity:
As it stands, this article promotes negativity and cynicism for science that degrades all of scholarship in a wholesale fashion. This feeds popular cynicism about scholarship and truth that negatively impacts egalitarian society.
Regarding historical context: This page enumerates a huge collection of scholars that contribute to the perpetuation of racist beliefs. Given that that practically all relevant scholarship was racist through the end of the 18th century, tagging such scholarship as 'racism' is not always a meaningful distinction. It risks unfairly condemning some who were mere participants in the primitive state of period science. While this may be unavoidable, to a degree, readers would benefit from a disclaimer regarding said risk. Maintainers of this material should also seek to understand and clarify between dishonest manipulation of science, in contrast to science that was racist because it built from a context laced with racist components, but without deliberate scientific dishonesty. It should establish a clear standard for whether it assumes scientists act in good faith, and if so how it determines that evidence of bad faith is sufficient for documentation here. Casual references to historic scholars without robust evidence of bad faith is particularly unfair and unfortunate, given such scholars have no ability to defend their reputation.
Towards constructing the positive narrative, it seems there are a set of scholars who are easily identified as advancing the foundation of non-racist science and scholarship. In particular, I would document
I am sure there are many more scientists, some who may have held racist beliefs, but who were critical in enabling science to escape from a primitive, ignorant, racist state and enable the possibility of egalitarian science that modern society properly deserves and demands. If the community supporting this page is supportive I would be happy to help get things started, but I am a computer scientist by training and definitely not enough of a historian to own this project.
Separately, this article would also benefit from a discussion of the history of the term "scientific racism": when it was introduced as a concept, by whom, to what ends, and how it has impacted scholarship.
JBradleyChen ( talk) 18:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
how did pseudo scientic theories influence policies in South Africa 102.249.3.204 ( talk) 20:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)