This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rudolf Abel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 1 year

Rudolf Abel has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones Date Process Result January 26, 2012 Good article nominee Listed March 22, 2012 WikiProject A-class review Not approved July 22, 2012 WikiProject A-class review Approved July 29, 2012 Peer review Reviewed Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on February 10, 2005, February 10, 2006, February 10, 2007, February 10, 2008, February 10, 2011, February 10, 2012, February 10, 2014, February 10, 2016, and February 10, 2020. Current status: Good article

This article is rated A-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Biography: Military This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance). Cold War ( inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cold War, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Cold WarWikipedia:WikiProject Cold WarTemplate:WikiProject Cold WarCold War articles Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Espionage High‑importance Rudolf Abel is within the scope of WikiProject Espionage, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of espionage, intelligence, and related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, or contribute to the discussion.EspionageWikipedia:WikiProject EspionageTemplate:WikiProject EspionageEspionage articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Biography / Intelligence / British / European / North America / Russian & Soviet / United States / World War II / Cold War This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles Associated task forces: /  Military biography task force Intelligence task force British military history task force European military history task force North American military history task force Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force United States military history task force World War II task force Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989) Additional information: /  This article has passed an A-Class review. Soviet Union: Military High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force. United Kingdom High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. United States High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Why is his "real name" Vilyam "Willie" Genrikhovich Fisher? He was born William August Fisher. Vilyam Genrikhovich Fisher is a Russian version of his name. He was famous as Rudolf Abel, and the Soviet postage stamp, in fact, calls him Abel. Who actually called him Vilyam Genrikovich Fisher?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:04, 28 October 2015 (UTC) reply

Though born in United Kingdom he was of mixed German and Russian blood. When he was formally employed by the OGPU he was asked:

"In this document you say that you're German. Here you say your Russian. Here British. What are you?"

"I don't know what I am according to your rules. I'll be whatever you say I am."

"You're Russian."

As far as the Soviet Union were concerned William August Fisher became Vilyam Genrikhovich Fisher.

Arthey, Vin. (2004). p. 73. Like Father Like Son: A Dynasty of Spies. St. Ermin's Press in association with Little Brown. London. ISBN  1-903608-07-4. Adamdaley ( talk) 03:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC) reply

A "W" (Cyrillic В) is pronounced more like the English "V" (Cyrillic У). It would be more common to pronounce the name as the English "Villy".

The English Name "William Wordsworth" spelled in Cyrillic is "Уильям Вордсворт" but spoken in Russian as "Уильям Уордсуорт". Also, as he is more ethnic German his 'real surname' would be spelled "Fischer", having been changed to 'Fisher' after immigrating to UK to anglicize the spelling. THE REAL question is why the use of the "Abel" name - If his real name and codename are "Fisher"? - I can find no clue to source of Abel in the Russian and/or German Interwiki either, just seems to magically appear. 80.5.219.60 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC) reply

His use of the alias "Rudolf Abel" is explained under "Capture". He became famous as Rudolf Abel, and that is why this article is called "Rudolf Abel".-- Jack Upland ( talk) 12:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC) reply

From his fathers side, he was genetically and linguistically German, so his name would be Fischer (German), of which the Englisch translation would be Fisher. Which name Fisher or Fischer is written down in his birth certificate? Or did he or his father change his family name during the time in England? -- Gunnar ( talk) 18:01, 3 November 2019 (UTC) reply

It says "Fisher" on his birth certificate [1].-- Jack Upland ( talk) 19:26, 3 November 2019 (UTC) reply

Marbe166 – When I originally came across this article, I wanted to improve it greatly. That being said, I also debated whether it should be American English and date-style... compared to British English, etc. Therefore, I made it all American English and date-style rather than British. Can people accept that me knowing a whole lot about Rudolf Abel, than others? If people would like to re-write the article and is far more detailed, than what currently stands then by all means, use British English. Otherwise, accept the article "as is" on a Good Article nomination. Adamdaley ( talk) 08:07, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

American English, yes, American date format, no, not for non-American subjects. Improving articles is good, and you clearly know more about him than I do, but what was your reasoning for using American English in this case? -- Marbe166 ( talk) 08:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Also, you don't have ownership of an article just because you have a lot of knowledge on a subject. -- Marbe166 ( talk) 08:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Marbe166 - I suggest you go read some books and not mess with such non-sense. So what if he was born in the United Kingdom? So are millions of other people. Lets say, if we had a Kiwi soldier article, we would do it Australian English. I suggest, go bother someone else. I've never claimed "ownership", I am more knowledgable about the subject and you'll won't be the first or last person to screw around with the article. Adamdaley ( talk) 08:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

The reason why I did this all in "American English" and included the dates in American-style, was because if Reino Häyhänen didn't get him into trouble in America, then I wouldn't have done it all in American-style. No-one ever pulled me up that I had to do it this way, or that way. You only have the problem with it, not me. If thousands of others have accepted it before recently with you, then why not you? Adamdaley ( talk) 08:37, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Gentlemen, please stop reverting. The correct process is bold-revert-discuss. Marbe66 you were bold, which is fine, and Adamdaley reverted, which is also fine. At that point, you should both stop and calmly discuss on the talk page before changing things again, in order to establish consensus. Personally, I can see arguments for and against either format (although, I will be honest with you, I don't really care either way as date formats are a pretty minor point, IMO). Please stop changing things and wait for consensus to develop. You can each have your say, and then see what others say. Regards, AustralianRupert ( talk)

Adamdaley Please refrain from personal attacks, thank you very much. You claim "ownership" by being aggressive towards me, even though were not even arguing about content. Also, I am not saying that the article shall be re-written in British English. It is standard to use dmy dates for European subjects, and mdy for American subjects, regardless of which style of English the article is written in. Have a look at other articles on Soviet subjects and you'll see that they are using dmy date formats. -- Marbe166 ( talk) 09:21, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Then why do we now have inconsistency with dates? All because one person decides it should be that way, without lifting a finger or doing anything "constructive" to improve the article. Brilliant. Next article, I do I'll make sure Marbe166 gets a say in it cause I hate to do all that late night Wikipedia editing to be for nothing. Adamdaley ( talk) 09:30, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

I believe his strong connection to the US, plus the long-standing use of US-style dates (per WP:DATEVAR going back to 2012 at least, makes it preferable that this article use US-style dates. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 11:56, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Why not just wrap them all in {{ date}} and let the user's preferences determine the display format? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( push to talk) 14:10, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

I've done this on all occurrences of day, month, and year together to demonstrate what I mean (see version here). Of course, feel free to revert if necessary. — Sasuke Sarutobi ( push to talk) 17:08, 19 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Unfortunately, there is a combination of American and British-style dates. Why couldn't anyone just leave it as it was? I'll be biased but it was fine the way it was until someone who doesn't like it that way, changes it and then draws out irregular date-styles throughout the article. Adamdaley ( talk) 05:41, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

As per Peacemaker67, I think the article's link to the US warrants the use of US-style dates. Zawed ( talk) 08:36, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

I'll be honest, I don't think you can rule either way based on his link to the US. He is also linked to the USSR, which uses dmy. He was born in the UK, which uses dmy. I don't think there is any conclusively determining criterion besides "What format was it first?". Nonetheless, I still think the use of {{ date}} wrappers provides a solution for a large number of readers (certainly logged-in readers). — Sasuke Sarutobi ( push to talk) 08:50, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

It was all American-style, in both English and date-style of American. Adamdaley ( talk) 09:42, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Quote from article: "The Soviet ethnic system was dual—primordialist on one hand (a premodern view of race carried over from Tsarism/pre-1917) and "Soviet" or socialist on the other. The fifth line on all Soviet passports listed the holder's ethnicity, which was called "nationality." This (the word "nationality" to describe ethnicity) in itself was also a misnomer which was based on at least some primordialist ideas of race."

1. No source!
2. Ethnicity/nationality = The text of the passport is in Russian. One can not argue from the meaning of the words in English.
3. Primordialist argument = Opinions of the author
4. The whole paragraph is, in my opinion, redundant in an article about a Soviet intelligence officer.

Shall I delete the paragraph? Luke ( talk) 00:20, 4 August 2018 (UTC) reply