This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 90 days

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Germany Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. International relations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. History Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. European history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: European / German / World War II This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  European military history task force German military history task force World War II task force Former countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Austria Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Hitler called the people of the Far East and Arabia "Halbaffen". The great majority of English translations use the literal "half-apes", but at least one uses "half maniacs", namely this (p259). The English phrase "half maniac" seems to be pretty obsolete; once it referred to a person with wild unpredictable behavior or something like that (I can't find a formal dictionary definition, can anyone?). It would be reasonable to mention both possibilities, but not to replace the common translation with a phrase few people now understand. Zero ^talk 01:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC

Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.

I think the commentary on this wiki page has become excessive, giving conclusions the reader can easily make on their own, such as the statement of there being no unified perception of Nazism when the page shows political and military opposition and support to nazis, in which the reader can make the lack of unification conclusion themselves without needing to read one, I think these commentaries bring unnecessary filler to the page and would like to trim them Bobisland ( talk) 19:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Yeah I think I'd agree. Feel free to trim down anything I wrote Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) ( talk) 15:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Should each country be placed in its own independent tab rather than grouped into Arab perceptions of nazis? I feel like there’s enough content now to do so Bobisland ( talk) 08:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Sorry for responding late. College work got in the way.

I agree that each country should be in its own tab. Right now, I'd say the article is around 85% 'finished'; the Syrian section is missing (Gotz Nordbruch is a good source) and Algeria's support section (need to write about the 1934 pogram and the fascist movement in Algeria at the time). I don't think I could be really active until spring break, but hopefully I've left enough sources for someone to pick up and fill in the gaps. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) ( talk) 14:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I added a wiki link which has sources that semi contradict each other, in the text

“The Nazis also sterilized hundreds of "half-breeds", Germans of mixed Arab/North African heritage.”

did this mean Arabs and North Africans or North African/Afro-Arabs? Bobisland ( talk) 01:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Sorry for being late. It referred to mixed Germans of native German and French colonial troops (Africans and Arabs). Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) ( talk) 15:17, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

The Nuremberg laws were an anti-Jewish measure and only that. They were not a definition of Nazi racial theory. They didn't even include groups such as black Africans who were considered barely human, so the fact that Arabs were not included does not in any way imply a positive attitude towards them. Including this fact here is a case of making an argument in wikivoice and an obvious violation of WP:SYNTH. Zero ^talk 02:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

The source in Tablet mentions the Nuremberg laws in the context of the Nazi's strategic reasons for promoting themselves in the Arab world, not in the context of racial theory. Placing this in the middle of a paragraph about the Nazi racial hierarchy seems to imply something about the Arab position in that hierarchy, but it didn't and I don't think that the source implies that it did. Rather, the source is saying that despite being semites the Nazis had political reasons for omitting Arabs, which is a different claim. (My opinion on the facts is irrelevant, but I doubt very much if the possibility of including Arabs was even considered; the Nuremberg Laws were about Jews and only about Jews.) Zero ^talk 07:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Ok thanks I didn’t know that and thought it included racist laws too Bobisland ( talk) 23:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I don’t understand why these were removed, the source I used for Kurds says “The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race); they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd).”

and I don’t understand why synth was used to the remove Nuremberg laws text Bobisland ( talk) 05:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Bobisland: I explained Nuremberg in the previous section of this talk page. Regarding Kurds, after what you quote from some official, the source immediately says:

This definition of Aryan was clearly unacceptable. Not only did it include large numbers of non-European peoples such as Kurds and Afghans, but it also made the racial laws seem to be based on political expedience rather than science. Gercke [the racial expert of the Interior Ministry] replied that he would use the definition of Aryan established by the Expert Advisor for Population and Racial Policy (Sachverständigenbeirats für Bevölkerungs- und Rassenpolitik): “An Aryan is one who is tribally related (stammverwandte) to German blood. An Aryan is the descendant of a Volk domiciled in Europe in a closed tribal settlement (Volkstumssiedlung) since recorded history.” This definition managed to include Finns and Hungarians, and exclude Kurds and Afghans.

So the ministry "racial expert" and the government's "Expert Advisor" said Kurds are not Aryans, contradicting the claim previously in our article that Kurds are Aryans. Such contradictions between "experts" were normal and unless we want to expand on this type of internal debate we can't use it.

Incidentally, to get someone's attention on a talk page it is better to ping them rather than write on their talk page. To ping you on this occasion, I started with {{Re | Bobisland}} but there are other ways such as mentioning you with {{u | Bobisland}}. Zero ^talk 06:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for catching my mistake and what about the Nuremberg laws text? I used this as the source “The Nazis made sure, with few exceptions, that the Nuremberg laws could be applied only to Jews, not to those other Semites, the Arabs, nor to Turks and Persians—which paradoxically allowed certain communities of Jews in Muslim regions to also survive the Shoah.”

from https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/nazi-romance-with-islam

and thanks for the ping info @ Zero0000:

Bobisland ( talk) 06:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Bobisland: Please read the section above this one. Zero ^talk 07:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply